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DUNE by Frank Herbert
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Dune got five stars from me, although I've never followed up with the rest of the series. My review is here, if anyone's interested: www.goodreads.com/review/show/22698731 .I actually don't recall that it had particularly long chapters, and only three of them; but I read it back in 2008, so my memory isn't the freshest. I'll have to double-check that later, when I have the book itself in front of me.
Werner, thanks for posting here and thanks for the link to your review of Dune. I've often been curious about Dune because it is so famous but I doubt if I could handle the reading of it. It sounds very daunting.BTW, while reading your review, I had to look up the following word:
SYNCRETISM - the combination of different forms of belief or practice
So, thanks to you, I've learned a new word today!
I gave Dune 5 stars, but haven't read it in a number of years nor did I read beyond the first 3 books. I recommend it as a stand alone. I didn't care much for the next 2 books & found the 4th impenetrable. The real expert on the series is Jackie. She reads them ALL. His son James has expanded a lot on Frank's universe.
Th Duniverse is EPIC! I love all the Dune books, though some are better than others. Dune has everything, it's a socio-policital, economic, religious, ecological, technological masterpiece. Dune isn't for everyone, even big SF fans have a hard time with it. While I would love for everyone to read it, I don't think it's for beginner SFers or non-SFers.
I KNOW I would have a hard time with Dune. Jackie, it's great the way you are really into it. Do you think it's a generational thing that some people (like myself) can't get into SF at all?
No, I think it's just different people have different tastes. A friend's father was into SF, he's passed away now but she's 75 yrs old. But I did start reading SF and Fantasy early, it seems like we've always been together. I can't remember a time when SF/F wasn't part of my life.
I love when a book can transport me like that, everything else falls away and only the book is real. I wish every book could give me that kind of experience.
I wish the same thing, Jackie! Every once in a while I find one which completely absorbs me. I remember reading one of the James Bond books by Ian Fleming and being so drawn into it that I actually started clapping when the good guys won out! I was home alone so I was only clapping for my own satisfaction. That same book probably wouldn't affect me the same way today. Sometimes we're ready to be carried away by a good book. Other times nothing could do it.
I read the first three DUNE books. I enjoy the first one immensely and recommend it as a stand-alone. It was a major breakthrough in Sf and still readable today.I started reading SF at age 10 and I am now 64 and still reading (some) SF. Along with mysteries, history and bits of everything else.
Hi Mary JL. I wish I were drawn to mysteries. Then I'd have plenty to read. There are so many of them!
I don't remember having SF available to me when I was younger. I'm 80 now. The first book that ever drew me in was either The Prince and the Pauper by Mark Twain or Little Lord Fauntleroy by Frances Hodgson Burnett. I can't remember which one it was. I was about 13 years old. It was an old book that was in our house. I don't know it got there. :)PS-At an earlier age, I loved fairy tales. So I can't say I wasn't familiar with fantasy.
Scifi and Fantasy often cross over but are in no way the same. A love of Fantasy does not mean one would automatically love SF. I love science, always have, SF is a way of reading about a subject I love that isn't so dry (unless it's the dreaded Hard SF), full of all the "What if's" I like to ponder.
Would "The Wizard of Oz," qualify as Fantasy or "Through the Looking Glass?" If so, I was drawn to fantasy at an early age/probaby around the age of seven or eight. I had four Oz books and loved each of them. And yes, Joy, what of "Sleeping Beauty," or "Snow White," and others. And even later "Superman?"
I do understand how SF appeals to Jackie even if not myself. If any book transports you far away and you really are there/that's the kind of book I live regardless of what genre..I am almost to that point in the book I am now reading, "The Fall of Giants," as I am in Russia during WWI and didn't know until I was reading this that the Tzar and Kaiser W. were cousins.
Jackie wrote: "... I love science, always have, SF is a way of reading about a subject I love that isn't so dry ..."Jackie, I can see how science and science fiction can be connected so that one enhances the other.
Nina wrote: "... And yes, Joy, what of "Sleeping Beauty," or "Snow White," and others. And even later "Superman?"Nina, yes, those are fantasies I enjoyed. I used to enjoy Wonder Woman comics too. But when it comes to books in the fantasy genre, I haven't been able to find any I like.
Jackie wrote: "Scifi and Fantasy often cross over but are in no way the same. A love of Fantasy does not mean one would automatically love SF...."I agree completely. I've heard a lot of definitions of both & never cared much for any of them, but like the man said about porn, I know it when I see it.
Space Opera is considered SF & one of the reasons it got such a bad rep, IMO. They were basically adventures with 'science' that was really just magic dressed up in science's clothing. EE 'Doc' Smith & John Campbell were both guilty of that. Fun stories when I was younger, but really dated now. They never had any real point other than fun, either.
The best SF uses science to tell a story & draw out the cost or meaning to humanity. It doesn't have to be a huge leap, either. Larry Niven was a master of that in his universe. Some of the most powerful stories I ever read. His ideas on wire-heads, simply a wire that could be implanted in the brain to directly stimulate the pleasure center, made a great statement on drug addiction. Other stories covered the ability to transplant any body part. The catch was they had to come from a person. This led to a story about a guy being sentenced to death due to his third speeding ticket - demand was up, parts were low.
The best fantasy does something similar, just different background & mechanisms. The rules are a little looser & often look to history more for the settings.
Nina wrote: "...I am now reading, "The Fall of Giants..."Fall of Giants by Ken Follett
Nina, I tried reading Follett's _The Pillars of the Earth_ and couldn't keep the characters straight. So I bailed out. It seemed too complicated and didn't stir my interest enough for me to work at understanding it.
Jim, what is Space Opera?. There seems to be several titles with the same name.PS-Maybe I should say WHICH Space Opera?
Thanks, Jackie. Your link took me to the following Wiki page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera
I gather from the Wiki page that Space Operas aren't the best choice.
It depends on what you like, Joy. While I don't care too much for many of the space opera stories any more, there are a few decent ones & they generated some awesome cover art.An old favorite of mine is Man of Many Minds by E. Everett Evans. It's free on Gutenberg.org here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19660
I don't really know why this one still tickles me when I find Doc Smith's Lensman books unreadable, but it does. Perhaps because it reminds me of Heinlein's juveniles. The hero is a bit older, but still fresh out of the academy, so not much. Whatever, it's pretty typical of the genre without being offensive like John W. Campbell Jr. often was. His bias for WASP men wasn't terribly palatable way back when & is far less so now. Of course, it's worth reading one just so you understand how thoroughly Harry Harrison lampoons him in Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers.
:)
Wow, that last post was pretty geeky. Obviously, I grew up reading SF & love it, even some of the old space opera. "Dune" is a whole different sort of book, though. It's an entirely different universe - ours thousands of years from now, but earth isn't even mentioned. Herbert creates religions, politics, entirely new ecosystems, & new breeds of humans. Then he sets them into complex plots with disparate goals. The world is so different than ours that it takes total immersion to really make sense of. The story is complex enough that each read gets a bit more out of it & different themes emerge.I don't think it would be your cup of tea, Joy. It's a bit too far out.
Back in the spring and summer of 2012 we had an extensive discussion, on the movies thread for that year, of the various Dune film adaptations. On the thread, that's messages 482-517, 630-31, and 638. I didn't include the link to the thread, because to find it it's actually simpler to just type "dune" into the search box at the top right of this page (under the group-pages links) to search all our discussion posts, and then just scroll a short ways down.
Jim wrote: "... An old favorite of mine is Man of Many Minds by E. Everett Evans. It's free on Gutenberg.org here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19660..."
Thanks, Jim.
Jim wrote: "... "Dune" is a whole different sort of book, though. ... The world is so different than ours that it takes total immersion to really make sense of. ..."Thanks for explaining, Jim. "Total immersion" is a good term. I don't think I could even get my big toe into it. :)
Werner wrote: "Back in the spring and summer of 2012 we had an extensive discussion, on the movies thread for that year, of the various Dune film adaptations. On the thread, that's messages 482-517, 630-31, and 638. ..."Werner, For informational purposes, here's the link to the beginning of the conversation you referred to above, beginning with message #482.:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Thanks for your directions in finding it.
I see that I did try reading DUNE. My comment at the thread was:
"Sheesh, all those unusual names! I can't wrap my head around them."
Good way to put it. :)
Would "The Wizard of Oz," be classified as fantasy? What about Superman or Sleepy Hollow?
Jim, Is the term "Space Opera," like a take of the term Soap Opera? Like not really serious drama etc.
Nina, yes and yes.
Thanks, Jackie. I wondered. What genre was Ray Bradbury? I liked his stories.
Nina wrote: "Thanks, Jackie. I wondered. What genre was Ray Bradbury? I liked his stories."Nina, Wiki says:
"Ray Douglas Bradbury (1920–2012) was an American fantasy, science fiction, horror and mystery fiction author."
See more at Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Brad...
Nina wrote: "Thanks, Jackie. I wondered. What genre was Ray Bradbury? I liked his stories."Bradbury didn't like pigeon-holing his stories into a genre & I don't blame him. He was all over the genres in many of them.
Thank you for the Ray Bradbury web site. It was very very interesting. His story, "Dandelion Wine," is one of my most favorite stories I've read in my lifetime. I understood my former question concerning what is science fiction compared to fantasy after reading what Bradbury had to say. Here is the Bradbury quote: "Science fiction is a depiction of the real. Fantasy is the depiction of the unreal." That makes sense to me. Do you agree?
Not really. Science fiction may be based on real science but not always. Besides the science part, it's not real at this moment but could be real in the future. For example, a friend of mine is writing a book about a 'gravity wave engine', there is no gravity wave engine but his idea stems from the ion thruster which is real. His story has us going to the Alpha Centuri B star system, that's not real. One of my favorite quotes is: Today's science fiction is tomorrow's science fact. I don't remember who said it but I like it.
Maybe a better distinction is that science fiction is about the natural, and fantasy/supernatural fiction is about the supernatural or magical. But they both speculate about "what if?" premises that differ from what we recognize as agreed-upon, present-day reality.
Oh yes, I like that description very much.
Yes, that does make sense. Have any of you ever read, "Dandelion Wine," and if so what is your opinion of it? Am I the only one who thought it was wonderful?
As I said earlier, I've never really cared for any of the definitions. I don't think natural or even science really covers it. Look at 'phasers' in Star Trek. A beam of something that can make 200 lbs of all sorts of matter disappear without a trace. That's not just beyond our science, but doesn't really make any sense. Look at all the psi powers in the best of the genre, including those in Dune. One guy made a very good argument that Faster-Than-Light (FTL) travel was magic. An argument could be made that they're treated logically, even scientifically & that's what makes them SF, but I don't really believe it. There are a number of fantasies with magic systems that are just as logical, natural, & take no more suspension of disbelief. Modesitt's Recluse & Imager series come to mind. Both obey all natural laws save for one point. They actually follow political & economic laws more stringently than most SF, but they're definitely fantasy if only because of all the sword play, although chronologically early Recluse books have the 'Angels' descending from the heavens in their space ships & using something like lasers.
That's why I gave up trying to define genres years ago. It always leads to circular arguments that are pretty worthless when done. And nothing I've mentioned so far even touches on those that touch on the stories that try to straddle the genres. At least, we're not in a physical book store where we have to file books on a single shelf by genre any more. We can shelve them on as many as we like, thankfully.
Nina, if you click on this link for Dandelion Wine & look about midway down the page on the right, you'll see how people have shelved it. Plenty of diversity there.Classics - 419 users
Science Fiction - 327 users
Fantasy - 248 users
Young Adult - 109 users
Short Stories - 78 users
Fiction - 76 users
Literature - 66 users
Novels - 53 users
Young Adult > Coming Of Age - 52 users
Science Fiction Fantasy - 50 users
Yes, Nina, I have read Dandelion Wine, and I definitely agree that it's wonderful! Here's the link to my five-star review: www.goodreads.com/review/show/15569021 .
Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group
Books mentioned in this topic
Dandelion Wine (other topics)Dandelion Wine (other topics)
Man of Many Minds (other topics)
Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers (other topics)
Fall of Giants (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
E. Everett Evans (other topics)John W. Campbell Jr. (other topics)
Harry Harrison (other topics)
Ken Follett (other topics)
Frances Hodgson Burnett (other topics)
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Any comments on this recent topic at reddit.com?
http://www.reddit.com/r/books/comment...
I haven't read the book but I know some members of this group have. My son recently told me about reddit.com and I'm browsing it every once in a while. When I saw this topic at reddit today, I thought of the people in this group.
Relative to the question at reddit, did the long chapters bother you?