Language Learners and Polyglots discussion
2023 Foreign Language Reading
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Peter
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Apr 17, 2023 01:24PM
Having enjoyed the 2022 Foreign Language Reading Challenge, I miss this place to share my foreign reading experience with the polyglots of the group. Such is the motivation for this group. I left out the "challenge" by intent. You can either set yourself a goal or just share your reading experience with the group. I am looking forward to your posts.
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Hey Peter! I'm very touched that another person enjoyed the group last year. I saw you were reading something in Dutch at the moment which you got from a friend in the Netherlands. Geweldig!
Hi everybody!I'm doing my personal foreign language reading challenge again this year.
I've flexibly set my 12 book goal for the year as follows and am currently WAY ahead of schedule:
🐉 4 in Swedish ✅ ✅✅✅✅ 💯
🐉 3 in Spanish ✅
🐉 2 in Welsh ✅
🐉 at least 2 in French ✅
🐉 at least 1 in Italian ✅💯
I'm currently reading another novel in Swedish - so really going over the goal line there - and am feeling a pull to read more in Italian.
I'm not feeling Spanish very much, but I have too many novels in Spanish on my shelves and some clearing needs to be done. Hm. 🧐
Anybody have any tips? What do you do when the books in a particular language have reached a high limit but you don't feel like interacting with that particular one (yet)?
Hi Peter,Thanks for bringing the chat group back. It was a joy of mine too.
My language challenge is not that high.
* Swedish: two. I have read 1/2 so far.
* Indonesian: one.
and I want to expand my vocabulary as a secondary challenge, so that I may increase my foreign challenge later.
My secondary foreign challenge is:
* expand Swedish vocab
* expand Indonesian vocab
* start Spanish or French (from scratch).
I may not be able to tick off books for the secondary challenge but as long as I remain active I should be happy enough.
Rod
Wow. I hoped there will be some reaction, but did not expect it to be that quick. I am glad that hopped on the train.Today I finished reading my first foreign language book in 2023. A small booklet with Polish poetry "Fantasmagoria". I asked a GR librarian friend to create an entry for it. The author is Sylwia Łukomska-Zijlstra, a Polish woman, who seems to have a Dutch husband. Some of the poems are accompanied by their Dutch translation.
Also reading at the moment: The 2023 boekenweeksgeschenk De eerlijke vinder, which I got by one of my Dutch GR firends.
I hope that in 2023 I will be able to read books in 6 foreign languages.
Sportyrod wrote: "Hi"You can do it, Rod! We have faith in you that you can conquer another in svenska and get on board with Indonesian! 🐱🏍
Peter wrote: "Wow. I hoped there will be some reaction, but did not expect it to be that quick. "Rod and I are the only ones who have continued on our own and I think we're the most interested.
So nice that you're able to get the boekenweeksgeschenk! I'm kinda envious there although this year Dutch isn't on my plate. 😁
Do you know which languages you want to do the 6 in, or are you flexible?
Berengaria wrote: "Rod and I are the only ones who have continued on our own and I think we're the most interested."I'm continuing but when you only read a small handful of foreign language books over the course of a year, there won't be a tremendous number of posts.
My planned efforts in Spanish thus far include:
MATAR À UN RUISEÑOR (Spanish translation - TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD)
LA OREJA ROTA - Hergé (TINTIN)
EL TEMPLO DEL SOL - Hergé (also TINTIN)
and for French, I'm going to tackle a classic doorstopper in the original French:
LES ENFANTS DU CAPITAINE GRANT (Jules Verne - CAPTAIN GRANT'S CHILDREN, adapted by Disney into the movie IN SEARCH OF THE CASTAWAYS)
Paul Weiss
Berengaria wrote: "Hey Peter! I'm very touched that another person enjoyed the group last year. I saw you were reading something in Dutch at the moment which you got from a friend in the Netherlands. Geweldig!"
"Geweldig" - "Bendigedig" in Welsh!
Thank you to Peter and others who set up this group - I enjoyed the comments on the '22 page this morning.
Thanks for opening this thread, Peter. How are you liking the Lize Spit so far? I read "Het smelt" and didn't like it that much, but thought her writing had promise. I'm not sure if I want to make a challenge out of it, but I'd really like to keep track of the books I read that aren't in English or German. Ideally I'd like to read about 10 books.
I've started a few this year but so far I have finished only one in Dutch. "Boven is het stil" by Gerbrand Bakker, which I liked. I'm currently reading two other Dutch books. They are all easy to understand because I speak Dutch well enough not to get confused or have to look up words. With other languages I always find it a struggle to either not understand some passages or look up so many words.
Berengaria wrote: "Hey Peter! I'm very touched that another person enjoyed the group last year. I saw you were reading something in Dutch at the moment which you got from a friend in the Netherlands. Geweldig!"
Hi Berengaria
Is the aim of the group to read books in six foreign languages? I could manage 4 reasonably easily but the other two would take the rest of my life!!!
All the best
Kathy
Ivy-Mabel wrote: "Is the aim of the group to read books in six foreign languages? I could manage 4 reasonably easily but the other two would take the rest of my life!!!."No, that's just for show offs like Peter and myself. 🐱🏍😉
The aim of the group is simply to encourage yourself to engage with your languages through reading more than you usually would in them. If you have 1 foreign language or 27, doesn't matter. If you're reading a book meant for 3-year olds or a Booker Prize winner, doesn't matter.
The aim is simply engagement.
If you like, you can let us know what you're reading and in what language and how it's going for you.
Peter's hosting this year, and he's decided not to ask anybody to set a goal. Some of us already have, but that's a personal thing. Not required.
Berengaria, Rod, Paul, Jeanne, Lea and Kathy. I am extremely delighted to find so many reactions on my post within less than 24 hours time. I hope there will be sufficient interest to keep this going, even if we do not read dozens of books in foreign languages.There is no need for a challenge, Kathy and Lea, and there is for sure no minimum number of languages to cover. Everything is up to you. Personally (my native language is German) I strive to read a books in English, Polish (I am farely fluent in both) and in those languages, where I am at an intermediate level (Dutch, French, Italian and Russian). I am currently learning Yiddish and hope some time to read also in this language, for example Isaac Bashevi Singer.
Berengaria and J.C. I am deeeply impressed by your knowledge of Welsh. My first visit to Britain was a language school in Llandudno and my school had a regular exchange with a school in Cwmbran (not so far from your place, J. C., I believe). So I had contact with this beautiful (by its sound) language, but never could motivate myself to endeavour the group of Celtic languages.
Thank you so much for your kind comment, Peter. So nice to hear that you love Welsh and know something of where I was born and brought up (my mother was Welsh). I was lucky enough to be taught a little Welsh in Junior School, but when I was twelve my family left Wales for my father's homeland, Scotland, and I have lived in the Highlands and Islands ever since. So I have some Gaelic, and I have been re-learning Welsh since the classes went online during the Covid period.I am fluent in French and have school-level German. I can read and write German but my spoken level is atrocious! I have a very slight acquaintance with Russian from some years ago and have dipped into a couple of other languages when I have visited their countries, not retaining much of them later but at least feeling I had made an effort! Old Norse/Icelandic got off to a good start (for a book I was writing) but I couldn't keep up with it timewise. Maybe it's for retirement!
I admire your range and commitment!
Reading Montaigne just now for a group run by Fionnuala and Kalliope.
J.C. wrote: "Old Norse/Icelandic got off to a good start (for a book I was writing) "Icelandic is one of my languages! But being that it is such a seldom taught language, I've found there are very few ancillary materials available for the independent student in either English or German. (You can find textbooks, but graded readers or grammar workbooks are very rare to non-existent)
That really puts a damper on how fast/well you can teach yourself! I'm still only a starter A2 now after about two years.
Diolch byth that the Welsh government have been pouring money into Welsh for their 2050 scheme and there are a number of good services/products for learners of Welsh now!
It's a lot harder for people like me to access much of the stuff when I don't live in the UK and esp now after Brexit - but at least it exists!
Peter, you must be having a similar problem with finding materials for Yiddish?
Afrikaans and Yiddish are on my list to get to after Icelandic. I'm aiming at being a lay expert in the Germanic languages, so when I have those plus my German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian, I figure it will be enough to get a rounded picture of the family! 🥋
(Yes, there are other Germanics, but they have an even smaller speaking population than Icelandic.)
Berengaria, thank you for your detailed response. I knew something of what you say from seeing your posts for a long time on my brother Ian's reviews. Mae'n dda i gwrdd â chi yma! As you say, lots and lots of resources for Welsh, thanks to the government target. I have put two short reviews in Welsh on GR, of simple books from the Amdani series. I don't mind if there are lots of mistakes - I just like to do it. If I read a French book I review it in French, with an English version, which a couple of GR friends have asked me to do.For Old Norse/Icelandic I am using Jesse L Byock 's Old Norse Readers, which I think are very good, as well as the Zoëga Old Icelandic Dictionary. But with learning Welsh, these books have had to take a back seat. I don't aim to learn to speak Icelandic, just to be able to use it if I ever go back to the book I started.
Do you find you get mixed up between all your Germanic languages? I find that with Gaelic and Welsh.
I am trying to find something encouraging to say about the UK post-Brexit but so far am failing miserably . . . the double entendre there on "miserably" is intended!
Best wishes, Jeanne
J.C. wrote: "Berengaria, thank you for your detailed response. I knew something of what you say from seeing your posts for a long time on my brother Ian's reviews. Mae'n dda i gwrdd â chi yma! As you say, lots ..."I'm doing modern Icelandic, nothing to do with the Vikings. (Yes, they tell you they are sort of mutually intelligible, but mostly only for educated native speakers, not for learners. It's like the happy myth that all Scandinavians can understand each other -- they can't.)
I'd imagine there is more available for the old Norse stuff since it makes up part of a number of archaeology and history degrees. That's always a plus!
I did use to mix up some basic Dutch and Danish words. I think that was because I was learning them both at the same time and kind of shoddily way back when before I really knew what I was doing re: language acquisition.
Because I've lived in a German speaking environment for so long, I have a tendency now to confuse German words for English! I normally get caught on those because other native English speakers don't know what I'm talking about! 😂
I can fully understand mixing up Gaelic with Welsh. Especially when speaking.
That's a good point, Jeanne...DISCUSSION TOPIC:
We're all reading in our languages which is great. You only increase vocabulary, reinforce good grammar and gain an appreciation for "natural" sounding language through reading. Nothing else compares.
But to have the motivation to continue learning, you need a strong goal.
Speaking has always been the most famous and talked about one. We often ask "what languages do you speak?" as if speaking is the end all, be all, goal everyone has for learning a foreign language.
But is that true?
In our internet day and age, are perhaps reading and writing in other languages superseding speaking as the most valuable and most used skills? Think of social media posts, messaging, chat forums, etc.
How much more often do you use those skills than speak?
And do you have some languages you WANT to speak (that's the specific goal), whereas others, you might primarily want to be able to read/write or simply understand (and maybe speak a little)?
Good discussion topic! I think I’d ultimately like to speak the languages I practice. But, recently I have realised that reading in those languages is a great way to improve your overall skills. Especially for learning natural language. When I try to speak a language I am often told I use formal language (which is taught first I think). So I value the learning of informal language too.
I also limited myself by not expanding the number of languages I could attempt. Being somewhat of a perfectionist, I’d think to get more fluent in the languages I know before being beginner or intermediate at many. But now I prefer the expanding out. That’s why I have a goal to increase my vocab in a new language (or two).
Fascinating points - I have to go to work but will get back to this after work (and my Welsh class)!
Lea wrote: ".... How are you liking the Lize Spit so far? ..."At first I struggled with the perspective of an 8 year old boy and the specifics of Belgium in the 90s. I had, for example, to google the nature of "flippo's". But the story of refugees is very close to my heart. Being a middle school teacher quite a number of my students are either refugees themselves of children of refugees, some even from Kosovo.
@Berengaria: So far I am learning Yiddish mainly on Duolingo. Some time ago I learnt some Hebrew, so I already new the letters in printed and cursiv form. Furthermore there are courses on Youtube and old textbooks that can be accessed for free. The main question is pronounciation as there are some differences between the speakers in US and those you preserved the old Eastern European way.You also mentioned the question of interferences between languages. Obviously knowing one language in a family gives easier access to the others. But the proximity comes at a price. Knowing some Italian I started to learn Spanish, but struggle to keep them apart in particular for words that a similar like "como" and "come". Similar happens to me when I started learning Ukrainian, which hovers somewhere between Polish and Russian. Still most people understand either way, once I talk to them and appreciate the effort of learning their language.
The "dangers" of learning languages that are very close to each other is real. After I studied Norwegian at university - officially I speak C2 but if I ever did I don't now - I studied a semester in Copenhagen. I don't speak real Danish now, I mostly spoke Norwegian there, but just being around Danish all the time, it really influenced my Norwegian. I often have trouble telling Danish and Norwegian apart when I read it and have to look for "key" words. My brain just tells me: you can read this. With Dutch and German, it was less so because German is my mother tongue, but it was still there. I learnt Dutch as an exchange program so I spoke Dutch 99% of the time for a year. When I returned to Germany, my German was a mess. For some time I even had a strong Dutch accent in German, English and French.
Peter wrote: "@Berengaria: Furthermore there are courses on Youtube and old textbooks that can be accessed for free. The main question is pronounciation as there are some differences between the speakers in US and those you preserved the old Eastern European way...."@Peter. That's not what I was referring to exactly. Of course, textbooks are going to be available. No question. And small efforts by individuals with YouTube or TikTok channels. Yes, of course. That's a given for most languages, even modern Icelandic, as spotty as it is.
No, what I mean is anything like the variety of support materials that are available for major European languages.
Easy readers, grammar workbooks, "Test Yourself" quizzes, CDs of songs for learners, games, crossword puzzles, short films for learners, online grammar tests, vocabulary workbooks.
Things like that.
When I looked into Yiddish a while back, almost nothing like that existed. Things change rapidly, but many of the endangered languages severely lack those types of ancillary products because companies can't make enough profit off them.
Berengaria wrote: "Peter wrote: "@Berengaria: Furthermore there are courses on Youtube and old textbooks that can be accessed for free. The main question is pronounciation as there are some differences between the sp..."It is so true that language resources are dependent on public demand. I watched "Patagonia" with Huw Edwards recently (the Welsh 'settlers' community) and how saw Welsh there is benefitting from the current marketability of Welsh, along with the general popularity of taking holidays to places where minority languages and cultures obtain.
Berengaria wrote: "That's a good point, Jeanne...DISCUSSION TOPIC:
We're all reading in our languages which is great. You only increase vocabulary, reinforce good grammar and gain an appreciation for "natural" sou..."
Berengia, I think you make an excellent point about the dominance of reading and writing in our technological world. I suppose you could say that there are more opportunities for speaking too, online. When I enrolled with the Welsh University's beginner courses, I had in mind (in about ten years' time) being able to appreciate Cynghangedd, Welsh formal poetry, and even trying my hand at it for my own pleasure. But I found that the beginner courses focus on speaking as well as the grammatical structure of Welsh, and it's such fun! As the class has gone on I have visited Wales and began my linguistic adventure by discussing the price of the Bara Brith I wanted in a baker's shop, and which size. My husband said as we left the shop that the assistant had answered me as if I were a native speaker. I still feel that moment of elation in the shop!
My online class happens as my working week ends. But however tired I may feel at the beginning of class, by the end I'm refreshed and have a great sense of achievement.
As you say, it depends on one's goals. But I have discovered that they can change! My sense of my Welsh heritage is growing through verbal interaction with others.
J.C. wrote: " When I enrolled with the Welsh University's beginner courses, I had in mind (in about ten years' time) being able to appreciate Cynghangedd, Welsh formal poetry,"I'm so glad to hear you're having such a lovely time with your course and making such wonderful progress! 🏆👏
What you experienced with the shift in goal is quite common with independent language learning, did you know?
Adult learners who do not have many languages under their belts often start out somewhat daunted by the prospect of mastering all four of the skills (speaking, reading. writing, listening) well. They start with either the one they are most interested in - like you did, reading/writing poetry - or with the one that sounds easiest and less time consuming. (Normally reading/listening)
Eventually, though, once they've proven to themselves that they actually CAN handle the language, the interest in being able to speak normally grows and that becomes part of the goal.
When you take a class, that's different. You'll get practice in all 4 skills right from the beginning - whether you want them or not.
But, Jeanne, outside of your class and when you aren't visiting Wales - so in normal daily life - when and how do you engage with Welsh? Or with French, as I'm assuming you aren't taking a French class?
Do you have pen pals you write, or chat with face-to-face with on line? Do you watch films, read books, listen to podcasts?
Which of the 4 skills do you use most often in your daily life and independently, really?
Berengaria, thank you for your supportive comments! I didn't know about it being a common thing to shift one's goals when language learning independently. You are right, reading and writing are what I do most in both my main languages, reading books and magazines, and writing emails and short reviews for Goodreads, or poems. There is one Welsh speaker here on the island whom I see occasionally. We exchange a few words, and I listen to Welsh programmes. There is also a Frenchman living here with whom I normally speak French, although again we meet only occasionally. Since I was a French teacher by profession, and still teach my grandchildren, I can speak and understand French easily, although not quite as fluently as I once did. I have German friends, with whom I should try to speak German, but they have such excellent English! My grandson and I are studying German together, as I have forgotten a lot. It is definitely hard to keep up the speaking skills, with the limited opportunities I have.
So, yes, reading and writing are dominant. The sense of 'belonging', though, comes with interaction with people, and having one's efforts in shops appreciated! I expect to be spending a few days in Croatia in July so I must learn a few shop phrases and please's and thank-you's!
Do you get much chance to speak Welsh or Icelandic?
J.C. wrote: "Berengaria, thank you for your supportive comments! I didn't know about it being a common thing "That's fantastic that you have both a Welsh speaker and native French speaker on the island!
Exactly, speaking a language is like a muscle. If you don't exercise it, it goes flabby. This is another reason why I think shining so much of a spotlight on speaking - and speaking fluently - is rather unfair. It mostly comes down to a great deal of practice and for that you need opportunities.
Many adults just don't have the ops unless they make a concerted effort to seek them out.
I don't have any ops to speak Welsh or Icelandic.
But then, my goals in language learning are mostly grammatical & structural understanding, and then teaching myself to read novels. Bookworm Lingo!
I'm generally not very interested in speaking most of the languages I learn, although a decent A1 or A2 level generally occurs as a byproduct of grammar study and vocab acquisition.
What you said about speaking giving a feeling of belonging is very interesting. I've experienced a sense of pride in being understood in shops, etc before, but I'm not sure I've felt any sense of togetherness. Perhaps I'm too aware of being foreign? Or of offending by getting it wrong?
(For example, I was always conscious of my limited spoken French in France, but I was only treated badly twice in a shop because of it. Generally, people were patient with me, but I didn't feel more "French", just more tolerated.)
I don't know if you all know this but there is a website called:www.mylanguageexchange.com
I have found some good friends on there over the years.
Good luck to you all!
Kathy
Hahaha. When I tried to speak Swedish at the shops, they usually answered in English!! That wasn’t so bad for me, of the four main language skills mentioned earlier, listening is my worst anyway.
Sportyrod wrote: "Hahaha. When I tried to speak Swedish at the shops, they usually answered in English!! That wasn’t so bad for me, of the four main language skills mentioned earlier, listening is my worst anyway."That happens often in Scandinavia, so I've heard. How do you plan to expand your vocab this year?
Brushing up on my phrasebooks to consolidate some previously learned words, keeping language books next to the lounge, increasing the number of head words, and reading more in that language. I also watch swedish tv but I’m doing that in general so it’s not on the list.
Berengaria wrote: " ... How do you plan to expand your vocab this year?"I feel compelled to answer as well. When reading or doing Duolingo I write new words into my Ankiweb app. In Anki I learn an rehearse the words. If the pronounciation is not straight on (in Russian e.g. pronounciation depends where you stress the word and modern Hebrew does not denote the vowels) I not the stresses or even add an audio file with it, which I look up in https://forvo.com/.
Nowadays Goodreads in fact is the main place where I can practice foreign language writing skills. I used to work in an English speaking environment, a couple of years in Poland, so that helped a lot with speaking and writing in these languages. With all the Ukrainian refugees in Germany I can practise my Russian from time to time, though some of them are not happy to use the language of the invader.
Peter wrote: "Berengaria wrote: " ... How do you plan to expand your vocab this year?"I feel compelled to answer as well. When reading or doing Duolingo I write new words into my Ankiweb app. In Anki I learn a..."
That is something (the language of the invader/oppressor) that I have always had in mind when visiting countries formerly under Soviet rule. I learned a little Czech, but relied more there on my daughter who was with me, as she had sensibly learned spoken phrases rather than my attempt to learn something of the structure! Romanian went better although I sometimes tried to use French and discovered that their second language of choice is Italian! But, trying to learn a few Croatian phrases for my coming trip in July, I find that I am substituting my long-ago attempts at Russian, which is making me nervous about trying the Croatian in case I upset anyone.
Thanks for all the links and useful info everyone sends in!
Learning a language can be useful when it comes to parking offences! I remember once, having innocently led my then French boyfriend and his French car onto double yellow lines, pretending to a policeman to be French (but you wouldn't get away with that nowadays!).
Berengaria wrote: "J.C. wrote: "Berengaria, thank you for your supportive comments! I didn't know about it being a common thing "That's fantastic that you have both a Welsh speaker and native French speaker on the ..."
Berengaria, I'm so sorry to hear you were twice treated badly in shops! Thinking about it, that feeling of 'belonging' might depend on a number of things, one of which is genuine interaction with someone that geos beyond the asking for directions or whatever, and also being on one's own. In Romania my daughter and son-in-law sat together on a coach while I sat beside a Romanian lady with whom I would say I built up a brief but valuable relationship, enhanced by our complete inability to do 'small talk' with each other but where we managed to exchange meaningful information about our lives. I still remember her with affection, several years on. If you like, I see 'belonging' as more with people than in their country. If learning language enables that sort of bonding, then for me the spoken part is very important. One or two people in the shops where we stay in Wales will definitely remember me (!!) when I go back in September, for what we shared of ourselves.
One of the many joys of language learning.
By the way, I started learning Russian in order to read the poetry! But I did have at the time friends here who could teach me - the man was part Ukrainian/part Byelorus. Again, people made the difference.
I see poetry as in a different league!
Peter wrote: " When reading or doing Duolingo I write new words into my Ankiweb app. In Anki I learn a..."I swear by Memrise.
What I like about it, is the timed repetitions, the unit reviews and the fact you can learn other people's "courses". It's clear and easy to use, plus you get points and can learn in groups with friends/a class. But I've found uploading audio files to be a pain.
Anki didn't work so well for me the one time I tried it. Reminded me too much of the kid's game "Memory"!
Quizlet is also okay for vocab practice, but the last time I tried it, you couldn't limit the amount of words it had you reviewing - which meant it made you review EVERYTHING, not just a specific group of words (like you can do on Memrise/Anki). It's mostly meant to help school kids so maybe that's why.
Unfortunately, I didn't have as good of experiences on Mylanguageexchange as Ivy-Mable did. I was using the free version, not the pay, so perhaps that makes a difference in quality of user.
To practice writing more in your target languages, there is the free site
journaly.com where you can post a short essay or blog-type entry and native speakers will drop by and correct it. (And you can correct entries in your own native language)
It's fairly easy to use, has a modern look and you can post in as many languages as you want. There are many to choose from - including Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Yiddish and Polish!
They don't offer suggestions about what to write about, though, so you have to be a bit creative, but they do have "subject" headings you can use as prompts.
I've posted book critiques, essays on public transport, what it's like to not be Christian at Christmas, the problems of becoming vegan and the science behind ghost hauntings. Many different topics!
The help/corrections are normally pretty good and you can ask the corrector questions if you don't understand why they've corrected what they have the way they have.
If one of your goals is to improve your writing, but don't have time to keep up a correspondence, Journaly is definitely somewhere to check out.
Hi group!It's fallen a bit silent here, so I thought I'd throw in something for us to chat about.
I found a vid from Olly Richards about "what polyglots do differently (than other language learners)" that I think is quite astute and accurate.
Those of you on the chat last year might remember Olly. He's a British language educator, author and polyglot. We group read one of his easy readers.
What polyglots do differently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE_eo...
Does any of this sound like you? Or does anything not sound like you? What do you think of his points?
Interesting, Berengaria! I could relate to a lot of this. I am really only fluent in one other language, French, and I did have a French boyfriend for a couple of years when I was young! So I found it fascinating that he emphasised the importance of emotional involvement. The creativity side made me think as well. Although I am in a class for my Welsh learning, I am creative in my response to what I am taught and I will seek or create opportunities to use it. I do tend to get a bit fixated on grammar, though, because I love the way languages work. I suppose that for me it could count as a goal, per se.As I have hinted before, a big motivator for me is connecting with people, but, as Olly said, conversation is not at the level attained when reading. I have just listened for the third time (I think) to the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who is a polyglot, delivering one of the Reith lectures, in English and then in Welsh. At last I have the words for "society" and "social" in my head and they mean something, other than being listed in the vocabulary for Unit 12! The next step is to see if I can get a transcript of the speech and study it.
I enjoyed the video clip - thank you for posting the link.
'Fixated on grammar' - warms my heart. The move away from grammar (as you can guess I am/was a teacher) has led to teachers and students speaking gobbledygook. I realise not everybody can learn grammar but I have always encouraged my students to learn as much as possible - it does not learn itself and it is, after all, the basic structure of the language.
I have to confess I was a teacher too, Ivy-Mabel! Thank you for your message. "Me and you" have that in common!!
Nice to meet you, comrade!! I feel like an endangered species when I get the students to learn grammar and vocabulary!!! After all, grunting would probably work just as well!
Ivy-Mabel wrote: "'Fixated on grammar' - warms my heart. "Hi Ivy-Mabel...did you see the vid? One of the things he says polyglots do NOT do is pay too much attention to grammar. And what they do instead to gain accuracy and competency.
Very interesting - you should check it out!
What polyglots do differently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE_eo...
I think this is the big contention point with those who like and enjoy the traditional "school method" of learning languages and those for whom it doesn't work. Which is the majority, unfortunately.
Recent - okay, last 30 years - research has shown that learning grammar rules actually *prevents* people from eventually speaking a language competently. Yes, that's why so many people say "I had X amount of years of X language, but I can't say anything". It may help you get good marks on a test in school, but it doesn't aid in long term learning
And why does hammering grammar not work in the long run?
Because when most people go to speak, they get tangled up trying to remember the rule, then what they wanted to say (message), then applying that to the rule...then remember what they wanted to say...
That is -- they do what school taught them. They focus on the RULE and not on speaking.
This takes far too long and too much mental exertion. And probably will not sound natural in the end.
As fun as hammering grammar might be for us grammar anoraks - and I include myself in that!! - the key to fluency is in gaining familiarity with correct speech, not in memorising rules.
When you were a tiny tot, nobody sat down and explained to you the difference between an infinitive and a gerund, or sentences vs clauses. You didn't need that! You had 24 hr constant input of correct English and all you needed to do was mimic that to become fluent.
It's totally a case of monkey see, monkey do. Or in this case: monkey hear, monkey speak. And we humans are brilliant at that.
High input of correct language + mimicry = grammatically correct fluency.
The problems start if the input is not correct or insufficient!
Parents who speak incorrectly will raise kids who speak incorrectly ( I think this is one of your bugbears, Ivy Mabel). Lang teachers who have insufficient mastery of the lang they teach will make mistakes and will pass those mistakes on to their students. (This is common in many countries)
But also, learners who have insufficient input will try to fill in the input gaps with what they think they know -- and make mistakes.
It is said that we need to see a word 30 - 50 times in correct context before we can automatically use it correctly ourselves.
If a learner has only seen a word 10 or 15 times - the amount they see/hear it before a test - then that's not enough input. They won't be sure of it, wobble around with it, doubt themselves, get into mental tangles...
That's got nothing to do with grammar rules.
Familiarity is the key.
I'm a former language teacher, too. Adult education, I've never taught kids. But I'm not a fan of traditional school methods because they have been proven to not be terribly efficient.
And I'm certainly not a fan of the Communicative Method that's been popular since the 1950s and what most (adult) lang teaching even today is based on. What rot!
Olly does a wonderful job in the vid I posted above of distilling down the new research into what really works - and how successful polyglots put that into practice. I do most of it and I totally agree that it is far more effective for long term learning/fluency.
(Didn't have the romantic relationship, Jeanne, but I'm really glad you did!! 🥰 Works wonders, doesn't it? And YES, involving the emotions is another very important part. If you aren't engaged both mentally AND emotionally, it's going to be a much harder battle. Love your approach to learning Welsh in your class!)
Let me chime in and confess that I am a teacher too. My subjects are physics, maths and computer science, so Fortran, Cobol, Delphi, Python and Java round up my "foreign" language skills. I have been teaching in junior highschool (Sekundarstufe 1 for those, who know the German school system) for 8 years now, when I left my previous job in international sales.Coming from the science angle I have a different take on grammar. It helps me to find my way around in a new language and - as hard as it may be for students to understand - adds to its unique beauty. Often I find my just learning the differences to languages already known. For example that the plural for numbers 2-4 in Russian goes with the genetive singular, whereas in Polish with nominative plural (5 and up go with genetive plural, while combinations with 1, like 51, in Russian require the nominitive singular!) I may have a distorted mind, but this is fun for me.
I did 7 years of Latin at school (it was my second foreign language), which laid a very solid basis of grammar concepts. Latin in fact is special, because we very rarely read it aloud (just to learn the hexameter of Ovid's Metamorphoses), so grammar has a much stronger place in its teaching than with active languages. In fact it is only recently that I learnt that the Roman "v" is correctly pronounced like the English "w". But the question of ancient languages could be a different topic for the future.
What I wanted to say is that the approach to learning a language may be very different, depending in the learning preferences, experiences and starting point of the learner.
Getting back to the video. Olly is right when he says that love is a very efficient language teacher. Besides English, Polish is the foreign language that I understand and speak best. And guess, my wife is Polish. We met when I was working in Poland for a few years. Since 2004 we live in Germany. She is fluent in German, so we switch languages regularly, sometimes in the middle of a sentence and even create our own melange words or expressions.
I loved all this discussion and will trey to comment properly at some point (Berengaria, thanks for your kind remarks!). But Peter, if you'd read "1066 and all that" (which I recommend!) you'd know that the Romans didn't do much for us in Britain because they were weeny, weedy and weaky. Next time someone says, "look what the Romans did for us" you'll know what to say!
Well, J.C., I live only 5 miles from the former Roman border (limes) and cannot deny that there are some quite impressive leftovers from Roman times. Or, in the words of Monty Pythonhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xad5Rl...
Yes, I know the Monty Python scene well, Peter - thanks for the link!What I meant was that when Julius Caesar came to Britain he is supposed to have said, "Veni, vidi, vici" or (weeny, weedy, weaky!).
I have spent a holiday at Vindolanda and was well impressed. If you are ever tutoring a child in Latin, do try "Minimus" by Barbara Bell (Cambridge). It's based on the story of a real family who lived at Vindolanda (or even Windowlanda).
Thanks for the Olly video link. Does it sound like me and how?1. Clear motivation and goal: my motivation is to speak with friends in their language, enjoy tv programs, and to increase work opportunities. My goal is not time-based or skill-based. Just keep going for now. Score 0.5/1.
2. Not enrolling in classes: I did a language as an elective in uni in 2020 and 2021, which was a bit opportunistic. I’m not looking at classes moving forward. I figured I’d self-learn. But I do enjoy the thinking on the spot that goes on in classes. Like “Rod, tell the person next to you how you got to class today”. That’s fun. My Swedish classes were awful though. Swedish into Swedish (no English). Being detail oriented, that annoyed me. I didn’t enjoy repeating phrases. I wanted to know what each word in the phrase was, but it never got explained, so it felt unadaptable. Score 0.5/1.
3. Grammar can wait: I wish they taught that in school. I appreciate grammar, it is the pedestal. But agree with Olly, there is a lot of growing before you can reach the pedestal, so expand vocab first, let grammar come along on the journey. Score 1/1.
4. Long term commitment: yes, I do. I have explosive moments of learning but tend not to forget to keep up at a slower pace later. Score 1/1.
5. Proactively creating groups: I haven’t created a group, but if I find out that someone speaks the language, they better not get stuck next to me on a long flight, or at a dinner party as I will not stop until asked not to. I’d say I proactively seek out individuals. Score 0.25/1.
6. Creative learning methods: hell yeh. I love music, and am one of those people who are really good at remembering the words of songs I like. I love ABBA. The Mama Mia musical released an English version of their songs, so guess who used that as a translation tool 😊. I also like expanding my vocab on topics I like such as geographic words, so I learn them. Score 1/1.
7. Read a lot: I do now to an extent, but this is only a relative new experience for me (thanks to the encouragement from Berengaria), I was mostly stuck in text book mode. So glad I escaped it. Score 0.75/1.
8. Close person to speak with: yes, though I don’t see why that’s normally kept secret. Yeh, I met a Swede and moved there. It didn’t work out, but I continued developing my skills and normally text and speak in Swedish to my Swedish contacts to this day. Score 1/1.
My score: 6/8.
Peter, you are my opposite. I could never learn those subjects! My maths teachers hated me. And rightly so. I've enjoyed the discussion commentary so far. Interesting how there is a paradigm shift away from traditional learning methods.
Hi Peter: On the subject of Latin (which I also learnt for seven years), did you ever see the chap on German TV who taught it? I enjoyed the lessons (although he moved fast) but what surprised me more than anything else was the way the language was pronounced in the programmes. The German version of it sounded like Italian. That is of no importance but it fascinated me. I can't remember which channel it was on but there was also a Russian course which they put on at times when no 'normal' person was up! (When I did manage to see it) the chap did not explain things as well as the Latin teacher, which was a pity as Russian takes a lot of explaining!!!!
Language Learners and Polyglots
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