Language Learners and Polyglots discussion
2023 Foreign Language Reading
Ivy-Mabel wrote: "what surprised me more than anything else was the way the language was pronounced in the programmes. The German version of it sounded like Italian."Do you know why that is? It's because the Vatican suggests modern Italian pronunciation for Latin words for their international clergy and modern use.
The Vatican is also the only body in the world to create and publish a dictionary with Latin terms for modern things like fridges, airplanes, SIM cards and modern problems like abuse scandals and terrorism. If you are Catholic, you'll most likely hear the Vatican pronunciation than the scholarly one. Because the UK doesn't have a large Catholic population like Germany, the scholarly one wins there.
Peter wrote: "Latin in fact is special, because we very rarely read it aloud (just to learn the hexameter of Ovid's Metamorphoses), so grammar has a much stronger place in its teaching than with active languages."The best self-study course I've ever seen for ANY language is the Cambridge University Latin Course.
And guess what? It has MINIMAL grammar explanations! Yes, very, very little grammar is included. Largely, you learn through guided observation of examples, pictures and situations.
Because the course comes from Cambridge University and was created by Cambridge Latin scholars, I don't think we can't say it's fluff or new-fangled hippie theory.
So, the notion that even Latin must be taught with loads of grammar is not exactly true. That's simply convention and school tradition!
(I'm not saying NO grammar, just minimal grammar)
Sportyrod wrote: " I have explosive moments of learning but tend not to forget to keep up at a slower pace later."The explosive moments of learning are great, aren't they? Learning seems to be like a lot, cyclical. Sometimes the window is wide open, sometimes it's not. Exactly. It's remembering to review in the slow times that's important.
ABBA! Using song lyrics to gain listening skills is a great tool. I listened to several albums of a German singer (Herbert Groenemeyer) years ago again and again and again until I understood EVERY WORD he was singing. Germans say he's hard to understand, but I don't think so. Or don't think so anymore!
The bit about starting a group or creating your own materials I found also a bit problematic. It's time consuming and at least with your own materials, who is to say you have it correct? Who will double check your work?
Sounds like you're riding well on the polyglot train!
Who is to say you have it correct? Good point. The Indonesians I practise on would have me think I’m perfect as they rarely correct me ;) The explosive learning is great. I am on a roll at the moment. I haven’t heard of that singer, but I know from my tv shows that some dialects, especially the Scania dialect of Swedish is hard to understand.
Sportyrod wrote: " but I know from my tv shows that some dialects, especially the Scania dialect of Swedish is hard to understand."Ah yes, Scania! that's the one that has a very similar pronunciation to Danish. Everybody thinks Danish is hard to understand. 😅
That's a good point - complimenting people on their language level.
I've met so many learners of English, esp online, who make tons of errors and yet think they speak/write wonderfully because English speakers keep telling them "your English is so good. I could never learn another language. You speak better than we do!"
They take that to be true, not the compliment of a monoglot, and their heads swell to the size of dirigibles.
I ran an online creative writing club for a while and invited learners in, as so many non-native speakers want to write novels in English.
For the club, I said you had to have C-level English to be accepted. A Spanish lady applied who had a wobbly B1 at most. Her sample story was so error riddled, I turned her down.
And she was like "You are being wrong. I speak the good English! Native English peoples always saying me I am speaking so good! I am speaking the English better than they speaking!" And then included a few snippets from comments praising her sterling English (all clearly being polite, not truthful) and a string of insults about how unfair I was being.
I didn't feel bad. If you're too lazy to check yourself with Grammarly or a lang app, then you're too lazy for my club! But it was a real shame those native speakers were essentially lying to her and giving her false ideas because they themselves had no, or miniscule, foreign language ability.
Hahaha. Not sure if that was half meant to be funny, but I couldn’t help but laugh. Luckily I can tell the difference between honest feedback and politeness. My Swedish has some minor merits but my Indonesian is still woeful. I could get by as a tourist but having a meaningful conversation. Ah-ah.
I must share a triumph from work just now! I work for Citizens' Advice (since I retired from teaching) and, rather than wait an hour to get through to Personal Independence Payment for my client, I chose the Welsh option, got through straightaway and managed to ask for what the client needed! I was so chuffed I did actually jump up and down!!Let's hear it for language learning ! Now, this afternoon's client needs to pay her TV Licence - will they answer the phone quickly, I wonder . . .
Berengaria wrote: "Ah yes, Scania! that's the one that has a very similar pronunciation to Danish. Everybody thinks Danish is hard to understand. 😅"And I can attest to that being married to one half of a pair of Danish identical twins. They get a great charge out of asking me to attempt to pronounce "rødgrød med fløde"! I think that little inside joke is the national hobby for Danes vs tourists.
Well done J.C.!! That was a real feat!
Ivy-Mabel wrote: "Well done J.C.!! That was a real feat!"Diolch, Ivy-Mabel!
Paul wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "And I can attest to that being married to one h..."I don't doubt that's true, Paul! The Teach Yourself Danish course actually practices saying "rødgrød med fløde" in a few of the later chapters! I guess they know about that joke test and are helping learners out where they can. 😅
J.C. wrote: "I must share a triumph from work just now! I work for Citizens' Advice (since I retired from teaching) and, rather than wait an hour to get through to Personal Independence Payment for my client, I..."Hurrah! And so many English parents living in Wales don't want their kids learning Welsh because "what use is it?" Getting through quickly on official telephone lines for one!! 👏
What a terrific victory, Jeanne! I'm jumping up and down for you, too, conquering the Welsh PIP line! 💪
Ivy-Mabel wrote: "' The move away from grammarhas led to teachers and students speaking gobbledygook. "
I'm interested as to what you mean by "gobbledygook", Ivy-Mabel, since teachers are also doing it. Can you give me an example?
Late to the party, but still:I have no fixed goal for this year exceot for one reader each in Spanish and Japanese. And I will report on any French book I read.
So far, there have been to:Eugène Ionesco's play LES CHAISES which I really liked (surprisingly melancholic for an Ionesco) and Jean-Philippe Dumas' biography of 20th century French politician Alexandre Millerand that I reviewed for a historical journal (and didn't like very much).
Hi everyone! I've been a member for some time but this is my first comment here.
Just reading everyone's comments and their progress has been very inspiring and I decided to set a goal as well.
English is not my first language but I mainly read in English. I also know some elementary level Japanese and German. Since I'm a beginner reading only 2 books in Japanese and 1 in German would be a great achievement for me.
Wish me luck!
Welcome to the group ~G~. Looking forward to hearing how you go with your reading!
Iamthesword wrote: "So far, there have been to:Eugène Ionesco's play LES CHAISES"
Salut Iamthesword!
A historical journal in French or German? Either way, well done! And Japanese? Wow, cool.
I've only got to one novel in French this year so far, too. "Le Livre de Baltimore" by Joel Dicker. Really fat thing, so it honestly could be counted as 2! Might get to a Greek mystery later in the year that I have in French, we'll see.
This year we're mostly just chatting about language learning and things around that topic - so there is more going on here now!
~G~ wrote: "Hi everyone! "Hi ~G~!
Not everybody has goals this year. We are also just chatting about language learning and related topics. Feel free to jump in and join the conversation if a topic interests you or you've had a relevant experience. 😀
Japanese and German, cool! Several of us here in the chat are German speakers, so if you have a question about the lang, don't hesitate to ask.
Berengaria wrote: "J.C. wrote: "I must share a triumph from work just now! I work for Citizens' Advice (since I retired from teaching) and, rather than wait an hour to get through to Personal Independence Payment for..."Thank you so much, Berengaria! A personal achievement as I approach retirement.
Woo hoooo! I just finished up the LONGEST novel I've ever read in Swedish - some 300+ pages. Took me about 3 weeks/1 month but I got there in the end! It also was a very good novel. Never translated into any other language as far as I can tell, which is a shame. Deserves a wider audience.
Let's see, that makes...uh...6 in Swedish thus far. My goal for the year was only 4.
I think that's enough of the old Svenska. 😉 Now back to Italian and Welsh...
Grattis Berengaria. That is a mammoth of book. Luckily it was enjoyable. Good luck with the next languages.
@Berengaria Well Döner! Congratulations! This made me think of the longest foreign language book I’ve ever read. I guess it is “The Order of the Phoenix” out fo the Harry Potter series. Or “Ogniem i mieczem” (With Fire and Sword), first volume of the 17th century trilogy by Henryk Sienkiewicz. Which were yours?
I’m on page 61/249 for my longest Swedish book.
@Berengaria: The journal publishes in French and German, because it's about French and German historiography and scientists from both countries review books in it. My review will be in German.
Berengaria wrote: "Woo hoooo! I just finished up the LONGEST novel I've ever read in Swedish - some 300+ pages. Took me about 3 weeks/1 month but I got there in the end! It also was a very good novel. Never transla..."
Congratulations, Berengaria!
Peter wrote: "@Berengaria Well Döner! Congratulations! This made me think of the longest foreign language book I’ve ever read. I guess it is “The Order of the Phoenix” out fo the Harry Potter series. Or “Ogniem ..."I'm re-reading "Quo Vadis" just now, Peter (in English translation) - from the days of my youth - thanks for mentioning the trilogy.
Peter wrote: "This made me think of the longest foreign language book I’ve ever read. "I think the longest book I've read in not English/German was also from JK Rowling: "A Casual Vacancy" which I read in Italian (and very much enjoyed!).
GR lists it at 553 pages. Took me months to finish! 😎
Sportyrod wrote: "I’m on page 61/249 for my longest Swedish book."Is that one a middle grade book or for what ages is it? Middle grade is great for strengthening your reading!
J.C. wrote: "Congratulations, Berengaria"Thanks, Jeanne!
You know, one of the things I really like about reading in other languages - especially ones I'm only intermediate in - is how INTENSE the reading experience can be.
It seems that by slowing down from the pace you normally read in your native language - or in langs you're fluent in - and focusing sentence by sentence, and taking time for exactly which words are being used, you can see and feel the descriptions, hear the conversations, much more vividly.
It's a far more "in depth" experience.
Does this happen for anyone else? Do you have a more intense, vivid reading experience when reading in a language you aren't fluent in (but also not a beginner)?
The Brothers Lionheart (my one) is a children’s fantasy novel. Although it’s not happy or feel good. I am heart broken every three pages. It’s so pathetic and sad. And yes, I definitely agree with you. The slower I read, the more I am trying to take in. Especially the nuances of certain words or phrases. Also, the more I pause, the more I remember where I was up to, which is good for my long term memory of the book.
Ivy-Mabel wrote: "' The move away from grammarhas led to teachers and students speaking gobbledygook. "
I'm interested as to what you mean by "speaking gobbledygook" here, Ivy-Mabel, since teachers are also doing it! Can you give me an example of where the derailment is happening?
Can I have a bit of fun with gobbledygook?"I would of done better if I could of" !
There are more, but that's a very common one.
Of course language changes verbally all the time, but it's funny when an expression changes its meaning completely.
The Radio Times had a nice piece recently about expressions such as "bull in a china shop" becoming "bowl in a china shop" (bowls might possibly behave and be quite at home in a china shop, while a bull would not!).
Another one they gave was "It's a dog-eat-dog world" becoming "It's a doggie-dog world" (?!).
Not quite the same thing, I know. But the first example does show an absurdity of syntax.
J.C. wrote: "Can I have a bit of fun with gobbledygook?"I would of done better if I could of" !"
There is a reading test where they ask you to find all the letter f in a text. Most people won't circle the f in "of" because the brain registers it with the sound of "v", not f. I took that test...and yep, I missed out all the of-s, too!
So, if the brain registers ov and of the same... then "could've" and "could of" would be indistinguishable in the mind. We know that reading is based on sound, not on spelling, so that mix up is bound to happen!
The one with words I know is "card shark". Not right, it's "card sharp". Same thing happens with misheard song lyrics. Radio stations have a grand time with those.
CCR's "Bad Moon Rising" line of "there's a bad moon on the rise" is often misheard as "there's a bathroom on the right".
And REM's "Exhuming McCarthy" often is heard as "Excuse me, the car keys".
Bowl in a china shop really doesn't make any sense, does it?!
Berengaria wrote: "J.C. wrote: "Can I have a bit of fun with gobbledygook?"I would of done better if I could of" !"
There is a reading test where they ask you to find all the letter f in a text. Most people won't c..."
Thanks for those, Berengaria - language is hugely entertaining!!
The discussion has gone silent for more than a week, so let me throw in a problem that I have with translation. Currently I am reading the Step (Степь) by Anton Chekhov in German translation. I have been feeling uncomfortable with the text. Unfortunately my Russian is not good enough to enjoy the original version, but at I could doublecheck some of the sentences. In fact the Russian text "flows" much better than translation and there are some blatent mistakes, like the translation of the language еврейски (Jewish) of the Jews as Hebrew, whereas it could be only Yiddish. Did you have similar experiences where your language skills helped you to understand a translated text better or identify false translations?
Peter wrote: "The discussion has gone silent for more than a week, so let me throw in a problem that I have with translation. Currently I am reading the Step (Степь) by Anton Chekhov in German translation. I hav..."Oh, definitely, Peter, in the "Montaigne" group. I've mentioned there that it is possible to read the original intuitively. I'm reading Montaigne in an edited version of the original, and am not comparing translations with the text, as some people are doing, and we've discussed translations that ring a false note - possibly overworked, I think, because one can so easily lose that intuition.
Peter wrote: "The discussion has gone silent for more than a week, so let me throw in a problem that I have with translation. ."If I can compare, I can always tell if a German into English translation is good. The problem is - good translators must also be good writers.
A person with an excellent knowledge of two languages may not be able to do very good translating because they lack Creative Writing abilities. This is why the best translators have always been good or known writers in their own right.
Practical problems also arise when you *could* say something in the other language, but it doesn't really follow cultural rules. In how much do you change things that are possible?
Example:
Translating "Nice to meet you" as "Nett, dich kennen zu lernen" which MANY English -> German novels do. Germans don't say that normally, though. They say "Angenehm" (Pleasant) or "Freut mich" (I'm happy) or the equivalent in their region.
Early on, I thought - from reading English novels in German translation to improve my German - that you COULD say that in German. That it was normal in the two languages because it appeared so often in the novels.
But when I said that in real life, the German I was talking to always laughed and replied "Nice to meet you, too" in English. As if I was being terribly American, just translating English 1-to-1, and not really speaking German!
That's where you can be led down the primrose path by books in translation when they opt for *could be used* but not *usual*.
IMO, you can say "Nett, dich kennenzulernen." It's just that it does come from English and younger people say it more than older folks. I'm a part time translator, so I appreciate how difficult it is to do it well, but I mostly try to avoid reading translation. Sadly, that of course means being limited to the kind of books I can read. I've been trying to be more open to reading translated books where I'm pretty sure I won't be able to speak the language well any time soon, like Polish, Russian and Japanese. I really can't read Dutch translations because most translator translate too closely to the original. I think the better you know both languages yourself, the more it drives you crazy. But even with Japanese translations there'll always be at least some akward German sentences.
I finished my first Dutch book of the year. In the end I didn't like Herman Koch's "De greppel" much even though it was well-written, but it was easy to read and I promised myself to finish a few more Dutch books this year, since it's really just as easy to read as English and German to me.
Lea wrote: "I finished my first Dutch book of the year. ..."Gefeliciteerd, Lea.
Lea wrote: "IMO, you can say "Nett, dich kennenzulernen." It's just that it does come from English and younger people say it more than older folks. "I've normally been laughed at, but then I've mostly been around people 40+ which could explain it.
I've also met Germans who swear that tapping a glass with a fork to get people's attention at a party/gathering is NEVER done in Germany and is a completely foreign practice....and then you read German novels in which elderly German characters are doing just that! So, is it foreign influence or the fact that in some regions of Germany it wouldn't actually be done which makes it a bizarre thing for certain people?
Cool that you read Koch! I haven't got to De greppel, but have read Het diner and Zomerhuis med zwembad. Too bad it wasn't to your liking. I very much liked Het diner, but not Zomerhuis too much.
Berengaria wrote: "... That's where you can be led down the primrose path by books in translationl ..."Your comment by itself Berengaria is a nice example of the difficulties translating fixed expressions. While I ascertained that primrose would be "Primel" in German, I have never heard of a "Primelpfad". Further investigation told me that this is an expression used by Shakespeare and others to illustrate an easy, but wrong way. So how would that be in German? "Holzweg" is similar, but does not have the pleasant connotation of floral odour.
By the way. I am starting reading today "Empuzjon", the newest book by Nobel Prize winner Olga Tokarczuk, in Polish. I will be reading it in a group and hope not to fall behind overly, as my reading speed in Polish is considerably lower than in German or English (which is anyway rather slow).
Huh, weird, I've never heard about the glass-to-fork thing not being a thing. I've definitely been to parties where this done, mostly more fancy places but I never considered it an age thing. As far as regions go, I've seen it both from Bavarian people and in Berlin. I'll have to ask my partner if it's a thing in the North of Germany. Bedankt, Peter!
Peter wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "..Your comment by itself Berengaria is a nice example of the difficulties translating fixed ex..."
My dictionary says "der Weg zur Hölle" or "Weg des geringsten Wiederstandes". I'd probably go for something like Irrweg.
Übersetzungen können uns leicht auf einen Irrweg führen, falls sie zu buchstäblich sind.
Translations can lead us down the primrose path if they are too literal.
But you are right - there is no connotation of a sweet-smelling path that leads somewhere dangerous in the German.
"Auf dem Holzweg sein" for me is more like "barking up the wrong tree".
Das glaubst du? Tja, bist auf dem Holzweg, mein Lieber.
You believe that? Well, you are barking up the wrong tree, mate.
My fave is "until the cows come home". From a GR friend I learned that a translator put that directly into German. "Du kannst ja warten bis die Kühe nach Hause kommen."
Naturally, most Germans will think of real cows and wonder why suddenly cows are there.
The best translation is however "bis St. Nimmerleinstag". Darauf kannst ja bis St Nimmerleinstag warten.
Hi Everybody,GR user Manny Rayer posted this:
"I've been experimenting with the idea of combining ChatGPT, DALL-E, the ReadSpeaker TTS engine and the LARA toolkit to create multimedia stories that can be used as reading material for people who want to improve their foreign language skills.
Here's an example. I simply gave the prompt "Write a short, quirky news story in Italian that could be used in an intermediate language class", and let Chat get on with it; when it had finished, I also asked it to add an English gloss for each word. I created a DALL-E image and converted into multimodal form using the LARA toolkit, the whole thing took about half an hour."
Here is a link to his review where you can find links to the different stories if you want to see how a computer would write language learning materials!
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I posted my thoughts to Manny and this was his reply...
"Thank you Berengaria, these are very encouraging comments! With ChatGPT-4's capable help (it's an excellent software engineer), I have in fact been putting together a server that will make it easy for people to create more stories of this kind. It lets you supply whatever prompt you like to create the initial text, also perform human post-editing to correct errors.
The results will be made publicly available on a dedicated site hosted by the University of South Australia. We plan to go live sometime in June/July 2023.
A Faroese-Icelandic linguistics student will soon be starting a summer project where she'll be using the server to experiment with creating texts at different levels of difficulty. Your suggestion that it would be more productive to focus on A2 rather than B2 makes good sense, I will pass that on to her! "
What are your opinions on this project? Sounds to me like any language learner will be able to generate their own learning texts on any subject they want through this server.
Interesting. I’ll give it a go. We are encouraged to use ChatGPT when we get stuck coding in my science studies.
Sportyrod wrote: "Interesting. I’ll give it a go. We are encouraged to use ChatGPT when we get stuck coding in my science studies."The Uni of Southern Australia would be near you, wouldn't it?
Australian travellers would say Greece is near England but in terms of this uni, it’s 1,438 kms and a 23 hr, 54min drive from where I live, including an overnight vehicle ferry and crossing two state borders 😎
Language Learners and Polyglots
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HA! that's great!
Just to make the joke clear: We might translate that phrase in to German as "klitzeklein, schmächtig und schwächlich" and not "ich kam, ich sah, ich siegte" because Vini Vidi Vici sounds very similar to weeny, weedy, weaky.