Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
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Questions (from Librarians only)
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[Closed] Kickstarter Editions
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Hi KoryDid you post this earlier? I thought I saw something about Kickstarter earlier on. If so, (and apologies if I am wrong) please don't delete & repost. Just bump after 48 hours if your issues haven't been addressed. This group is now very busy & we are volunteers.
Does this link help with your query? Rivka was an early adaptor of Goodreads & a longtime staff member who has only recently left.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
So the answer is that Goodreads doesn't consider an edition published if we have to join a website to check the details. This applies to other sites like Patreon as well.
If you want to have a discussion about this please go to Help. Or you can contact Support (Staff) here https://www.goodreads.com/about/conta...
As I said above, we are volunteers - & we have little to no influence on Goodreads policy.
Edit: Sorry I see you already quoted that post. (I have the flu) But once rivka has ruled on something (even though she no longer works here) you need to talk to staff rather than volunteers.
Kickstarter books are not actualy listed as banned in GoodReads policy.
PaulGamerBoy360(Brigham) wrote: "It is just a rule someone random made and your still following it."Read again Paul. rivka wasn't a random - she was a longtime member of staff. I forgot to mention that she was the Moderator of this group & used to adjudicate on this stuff all the time - often after consulting other staff members.
& not everything is mentioned in the Manual. It would be longer than War & Peace if it was! Sometimes you have to do a search in this group to find the policies.
Please use the link in message #2 if you want to contact paid staff about Goodreads policies.
Yes, Rivka was paid staff and Librarian Moderator until late last year, so for nearly 15 years. Most of what we know about policy came from her. If/when things change, they will have been posted only very recently.
PaulGamerBoy360(Brigham) wrote: "It is just a rule someone random made and your still following it."Eh. Rivka isn't "someone random", how dare you!?
PaulGamerBoy360(Brigham) wrote: "Kickstarter books are not actualy listed as banned in GoodReads policy."There are many things that are not listed explicitly.
If a Kickstarter book is only available by donating to the kickstarter, then it falls under the parts about how books are distributed.
Hi Carol as mentioned above, this came up in the discussion on Sul. So that's probably where you saw it, however I was told it might be good to start a formal discussion on this topic since apparently that has never happen.I will also add that the rivka comment you linked also does state "Individual comics that lack an ISBN and have not been published as individual Kindle editions generally do not meet Goodreads criteria for addition to the database. Neither do items solely available through Kickstarter and similar platforms."
To be clear Sul is not solely available through Kickstarter, a Kindle edition does exist (currently in pre-order). If this means that the limited edition specifically can't only be available through Kickstarter, I disagree. Specifically limited editions are generally just that, limited, regardless of where someone gets them. The fact that more information might not be available about those specific editions could be because they are new, but also that doesn't deny their existence.
If Good Reads paid staff does actually hold this policy, then they should add it to the manual precisely because it comes up all the time. I will gladly reach out to them and direct them to this discussion however.
Kory wrote: "Hi Carol as mentioned above, this came up in the discussion on Sul. So that's probably where you saw it, however I was told it might be good to start a formal discussion on this topic since apparen..."if you want to have a discussion about this please go to Help. Or you can contact Support (Staff) here https://www.goodreads.com/about/conta...
I am not sure if this is up for discussion in this group now that we have had a change in moderation, but my opinion differs from the policy and I think physical books, whether from Kickstarter, subscription boxes, etc. should be allowed once they are available. People can acquire them from secondhand stores, friends, etc. I don't think that the policy considered subscription boxes and the like when it was formed. I think it is meant primarily to exclude short stories and ebooks only available through newsletter subscription.
ETA: If someone would let us know the stance on discussions like this that would probably be a good idea. Previous threads on these types of questions/suggestions were always closed with instructions to write to Support.
There have been many discussions of late so I thought I would ask this before continuing anything.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Kory wrote: "Hi Carol as mentioned above, this came up in the discussion on Sul. So that's probably where you saw it, however I was told it might be good to start a formal discussion on this topic ..."You will note I did state my intent to contact them directly. However this is the Goodreads Librarians Group Discussion forum on Policies & Practices, so for all intents and purposes shouldn't this be the exact place to have this discussion?
Unless of course this isn't a policy or practice. In which case I think that would validate my original post.
I will also note that in the discussion on Sul I was directed to start this discussion.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Emily wrote: "I am not sure if this is up for discussion in this group now that we have had a change in moderation, but my opinion differs from the policy and I think physical books, whether from Kickstarter, subscription boxes, etc. should be allowed once they are available."I agree...
People can acquire them from secondhand stores, friends, etc.
...for exactly this reason. Also that a physical book is a physical book. As long as it's not a custom-made book (some people have their comic books bound into a volume) I think it should be allowed.
Kory wrote: "I will also note that in the discussion on Sul I was directed to start this discussion.https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...."
To be fair they did not say to post here.
Kory wrote: "However this is the Goodreads Librarians Group Discussion forum on Policies & Practices, so for all intents and purposes shouldn't this be the exact place to have this discussion?."
This is primarily a place to ask questions to clarify policies and practices. We have just had a change in moderators so I have asked within one of my posts above if this is the place or if people should still be encouraged to contact Support for these issues.
Emily wrote: "Kory wrote: "I will also note that in the discussion on Sul I was directed to start this discussion.https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...."
To be fair they did not say to post here.
Kory wro..."
Yes Carol did just reply (~8 minutes ago at time of this reply) to that discussion stating that, but Gem told me to start the discussion well before then.
We might need a moderator ruling on that. My personal view (& I am a volunteer not staff) is once there has been a ruling, then discussion should go in Help or talk to Staff. I have seen many, many of these discussions go off the rails. (the threads generally get deleted) Librarians have little to no influence on policies.
Kory wrote: " told me to start the discussion well before then."Ah, I overlooked that part of the post.
The other librarian may not have been around for the discussions then. (& I don't mind being named, but generally, even if favourably mentioned, it is considered calling out & not allowed in this group.)
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "The other librarian may not have been around for the discussions then. (& I don't mind being named, but generally, even if favourably mentioned, it is considered calling out & not allowed in this g..."I am sorry about that and I do agree that discussions should stick to the original topic. Though there might have been a ruling on this some time ago it is particularly unfortunate that it either never made it into the manual or got pinned anywhere for direct referencing, besides to comments on other discussions.
I would hope that this discussion stays up regardless of ruling so that everyone can better understand the decision that was/is reached. My Help question (and support) also directed them to this discussion so that I would not need to restate my position.
I would also like to point out that as mentioned in other discussion, Brandon Sanderson did have a Kickstarter campaign a year ago for 4 new books, I don't recall if those would be kickstarter exclusive editions. However even if they were, the scale of that campaign should make it clear that maybe this policy needed revisiting.
Thank you for your time as well.
Thats ok - I should make it clear that librarians cannot delete threads - we can only delete our own posts.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "PaulGamerBoy360(Brigham) wrote: "It is just a rule someone random made and your still following it."Read again Paul. rivka wasn't a random - she was a longtime member of staff. I forgot to mentio..."
Rivka didn't make the rule they stated that a Goodreads staff member decided that the didn't qualify.
Mod
Hi Paul. This is a second request to keep discussions on track. Repeated behaviour that causes disruption will lead to dismissal from the Group.
Mod
I'm happy to have these conversations. I'm not as knowledgeable as Rivka on policy and its history, so I am leaning into the expertise of this Group.
I'd be happy to speak to the team about printed Kickstarter / subscription box editions being permitted into the catalog. I'm busy working through a few other catalog items, so please bear with me.
Jaclyn wrote: "Thanks Emily and Carol for your consideration of where these discussions should go. 😊I'm happy to have these conversations. I'm not as knowledgeable as Rivka on policy and its history, so I am le..."
Thank you
I should also add that there have been at least in the past, but in some cases fairly recently, Kickstarter Editions of books.E.g. Excellence Book 1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5...
This might have been added before this policy was in place.
Back in 2017 it seems that they were definitely allowed
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Only about a year ago does it seem to be the case, dealing with the Brandon Sanderson novels where this makes the first appearance as fas as I can tell and it seems even then rivka was not completely sure on policy. It's possible it came up earlier, however if discussions got deleted then it's hard to actually know.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I will state that that was a particularly weird case and at least it seems to me that again kickstarter books maybe should not be added (exclusive or not) until they get published. If that were the case then it might actually remove a lot of headache around Kickstarter books. Which to me at least seems to more be a case of incomplete information due to... the books not being published yet. And in the case of "secret projects" there would be no hassle of changing titles.
Another case of kickstarter books being added before being published causing problems.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
To reiterate the issue is not kickstarter books, it's books having been added well before they actually get published. For normally published books, them being added earlier seems fine as that's generally set in stone they have pre-orders etc. But with Kickstarter projects can and do fail, so for those editions they should not get added until it is known that they are actually being published.
This is a point I made in my original post, but I feel is strengthened.
The answer I got in Help was"The policy in not unofficial. Works added to the database have to be completed ( no works in progress), and have to satisfy availability criteria.
https://help.goodreads.com/s/article/...
If you have additional questions, use the Contact Us button on the right to reach Goodreads Support."
Which is not really an answer when I've addressed both of these, 1) "not in progress" 2) "availability criteria"
1. I specifically talk about books that do get published after a Kickstarter campaign. i.e. they must have been fulfilled and published, obviously if it's in progress then it should not be valid.
2. There is no mention of what the availability criteria is as far as I can find besides mentions of "availability criteria". It seems that there's a loose criteria (based on findings in other discussions) on if books are only available through a newsletter subscription or a single specific app. But again books like Sul not only have available Kindle or similar editions but also got physically produced, even if it's self-publishing that is still publishing. Regardless of it only have been able to be acquired through kickstarter. That's just limited edition and now out of print. And again they could at some point be bought secondhand.
Corinne wrote: "I responded in HELP but to re-say what I said there, just stick with this thread. At first we didn't know which way you needed to go with your queries so we told you what we've been trained to say ..."Ok thank you
Kory wrote: "I should also add that there have been at least in the past, but in some cases fairly recently, Kickstarter Editions of books.E.g. Excellence Book 1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5......"
When anyone could add a book to the Goodreads catalog, some books were added that were not valid. That's the primary reason the new policy was put into place that restricted book additions to librarians and staff.
Dobby wrote: "Kory wrote: "I should also add that there have been at least in the past, but in some cases fairly recently, Kickstarter Editions of books.E.g. Excellence Book 1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/sh..."
Yes that I understand perfectly well, I actually intended to mention that in my discussion, but kind of figured it explains itself. Anyone being able to add anything can mean loads of invalid stuff and a lot more work for the librarians (and was obviously), so restrict adding/editing to librarians. I believe authors might be able to edit some things but not sure, though that would be understandable to have.
I can see that the issues of in-progress, not yet published, books being added could have been one of the factors in closing additions to librarians only. However that specific change doesn't really address the discussion directly.
This goes back to my point that once those books do get published, it should be viable for them to be added.
Kory wrote: "...However that specific change doesn't really address the discussion directly..."Only in the sense that we can't rely on the validity of books added previously in determining whether those were allowable.
I agree that once the books are published and available to the general public, they become valid additions according to Goodreads policy.
Mod
Jaclyn wrote: "Thanks for everyone's patience while I worked on some other items. Adding an update that we're discussing this internally and I'll provide feedback on or before 4/14."Thank you
Mod
Jaclyn wrote: "Checking in here with an update - we unfortunately don't have a solid ruling on Kickstarter editions just yet, but I'll have more information to share next week. Sorry for the wait!"No worries, thanks for the update.
Mod
We're going to uphold the rule that books that are only available through a subscription or registration are not permitted in the catalog. The main concern here is that unsuccessful Kickstarters could lead to superfluous titles being added.
I'm still looking into permitting the addition of Kickstarter edition when a valid edition already exists (such as on Amazon or a publisher site). However, I'd still like to get further input from the team on Kickstarter's terms of use and other considerations before making a decision on this.
Let me know if you have any further questions or thoughts at this stage.
Jaclyn wrote: "The main concern here is that unsuccessful Kickstarters could lead to superfluous titles being added."Then why isn't the concern that the bot is importing thousands of superfluous titles? Sorry, I don't mean to be snarky, but there has to be a another and better reason for not allowing Kickstarter editions.
I understand the concerns about unsuccessful campaigns, but I'm still wondering about successful campaigns. If a given book was indeed published due to the success of the campaign, then why wouldn't it be valid?As I see it, once a Kickstarter book (and any other book, regardless of the way of publishing) is published, it can and will become publicly accessible. If I came across a Kickstarter edition at a library, book bazaar, thrift store/second-hand store, or simply because someone gave it to me, I would like to be able to shelve it on Goodreads.
Yes that is the argument for subscription box and other physical editions that we talked about up the thread. Book of the Month editions are added all the time and shelved by thousands.
It’s definitely something the team should take into consideration.
Jaclyn wrote: "Thanks for your patience while we discussed this internally.We're going to uphold the rule that books that are only available through a subscription or registration are not permitted in the catal..."
I specifically addressed that main concern throughout this thread. Of course unsuccessful or in progress or even funded (funded does not mean it gets published, project do fail after funding) kickstarter books should not be included. My point was and has been, if the book actually does get published and fulfilled, that should be allowed, regardless if it never becomes available again. However many of these books usually have at least an ebook version that becomes available, see Sul: From Gold to Iron and Rust. It even has a viable listing as an ebook, so especially in cases like this physical editions should be allowed as well.
It has been a year since this topic was last discussed. There has been no reply from Jaclyn has been given as an update to published books being funded by Kickstarter being allowed (published books, not pending books). I'm personally confused as there are a number of books listed here that have been funded via Kickstarter, Backerkit, or Indigogo, but others have been denied because they were funded the same way.
Mod
1. The Kickstarter is complete and the member confirms having received their edition.
2. There are more than 50 copies being distributed.
3. The book details are publicly available on Kickstarter.
I'll edit the subject and folder of this discussion to give others some time to weigh in with concerns or questions and will update the Librarian Manual late next week (because I'll be out Tues and Wed for my partner's birthday 🥳).
Mod
Mod
The following Librarian Manual articles have been updated with this information:
Librarian Manual: Non-book items
Librarian Manual: Valid book records
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
For reference I am starting this discussion because of the book Sul: From Gold to Iron and Rust.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Backers like myself have begun receiving our physical copies of the book, the kindle version of the book will be available in April and does have an entry. So the book for all intents and purposes, is a published book. Though the kickstarter edition does not have an ISBN, there is nothing to suggest books are not valid books if they do not have ISBNs (particularly when ISBNs are relatively recent).
Note that this is not the only example, there are a lot of them. In fact it's frequent enough that Librarians have to constantly reply with denying Kickstarter published books, but no actual explanation is given or link to a policy provided.
As far as I can tell this idea about Kickstarter books not meet criteria comes from this comment by rivka "Items solely available through Kickstarter and similar platforms, generally do not meet Goodreads criteria for addition to the database."
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Note that the comment says "generally", there is nothing the expands on what may or may not qualify when it comes to Kickstarter, in fact the suggestion appears to mean that they can qualify under certain conditions. Also the book that original comment was on did get added as it did become available. Why it was rejected originally even though an ISBN was provided is another question.
According to comments here
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Subscription books or books only available from special places also aren't valid because those aren't publicly available. Does this mean a limited edition book available from a website is also doesn't qualify? If it does, then how is Kickstarter any different, it's not a special location. Though this also does beg the question on exactly why those books wouldn't qualify, what exactly is "publicly available" in regards to books like this, when those books can be bought just only from one location.
Of note are these specific existing policies
https://help.goodreads.com/s/article/...
Kickstarter is not mentioned in this for not valid records. In fact full-length fanfiction that is complete and self-published is considered valid. So why a book that is self-published through Kickstarter is not... doesn't really make sense.
https://help.goodreads.com/s/article/...
Would books that were only ever available through Kickstarter and got published, are they just considered out of print? This would make sense are they were available, just not anymore.
https://help.goodreads.com/s/article/...
"Goodreads strives to be a complete database of all published works, including works that are out-of-print. We like our members to be able to add their exact edition to their virtual shelves."
If members cannot add their Kickstarter Editions to their shelves, then this policy is a lie.
Also note that ISBNs are not required, not all books have them, so lack of ISBN should not be a factor.
So it seems to me that nothing suggests that Kickstarter Editions that get published can't be added just that if certain information isn't available then it won't be. However plenty of authors do give information needed. With Sul I personally have a physical copy of the Kickstarter edition, would I be prevented from adding it as an edition? I don't think I should be. Kickstarter Editions that do get published should be allowed to be added. Even if only 200 people have the book, that's just a limited edition of 200 copies.
The criteria for kickstarter editions or kickstarter self-published books should be that the book does get published. If a project is still ongoing or has not been fulfilled i.e. no books published (failed campaigns happen), then those should understandably not be allowed. If an ebook or standard edition is also available, then just gives even more reason for the kickstarter edition to be allowed.
Again
"Goodreads strives to be a complete database of all published works, including works that are out-of-print. We like our members to be able to add their exact edition to their virtual shelves."
Thank you.