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The Aleph and Other Stories
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The Aleph and Other Stories
Sorry. I got sidetracked. about "The Dead Man"
Seems that Borges received some flack about this story, huh. The story describes what happens in all social outsider groups. Here some gauchos. Could have easily been a story about men in the Old Natchez Trace. Or about biker groups. Or about military guerillas. Or about people on any frontier. So not quite mythic, but an idea worth pursuing in a different way.
about "The Dead Man"Cynda wrote: "Sorry. I got sidetracked.
about "The Dead Man"
Seems that Borges received some flack about this story, huh. The story describes what happens in all social outsider groups. Here some gauchos. Coul..."
I don't know how the story was received, but his A Universal History of Iniquity is less well liked, in general, by his readers.
I agree on the rest of what you said. Good observation. And less mythic in the sense of Greek/Roman myth. More like old stories of that "cowboy" era found in A Universal History of Iniquity.
And thanks for the info on the locations.
Yea exactly. The style is wrong--too quickly told. In the story "Emma Zunz," the quickly tale is correct with Emma Zunz's strong mental intent and cool emotional control. But in "The Dead Man," I want a different title and more development, maybe make the character a bit ridiculous so we can smirk at the ridiculous character who had to die to re-balance power.
Reading "The Zahir"I was reminded of Precious ring in The Lord of The Rings. Oh no: I have only watched the movie :/
Also I was reminded of how obsessions/addictions are inadequate stand-ins for the Divine.
Reading "The Zahir"There were nights when I was so certain I'd be able to forget it that I would willfully remember it. The truth is, I abused those moments; starting to recall turned out to be much easier than stopping.oh yeah.
Reading "The Writing of God"Here in The Writing of God we read that things are intertwined, an all-encompassing fabric. That awareness made Tzinacán realize that he no longer remembers himself--maybe because if you are part of the all-encompassing fabric, maybe your identity is merged so that self does not matter. Maybe a bit like achieving Narvana.
I first was introduced to Calvino and Borges from Umberto Eco and at the time was caught up in semiotics and reader-response criticism. Even to this day, I look at Borges' stories as fictional representations or illustrations of critical theory clothed in a kind of pulp adventure style. I tend to view the stories as interrelated from that perspective rather than individual stories so each story is dependent upon the relationship to the others for full meaning and all contribute toward a fuller understanding of literature. The stories seem to have almost archetypal root elements so in The Dead Man we have the ironic twist at the end and poetic justice or retribution. Their is the sense of the violation of the unstated moral code and the deserved comeuppance for one who has become too big for his breeches.
Yes exactly. Not mythic, but big. . . . Glad you're reading too Sam. . . . I am a little busier the next day or two as going to parents' house to help with chores. I will be back reading Borges this weekend.
"about The House of Asterion"Cynda wrote: "about The House of Asterion
I have twice read Circe by Madeline Miller. Circe was the sister of the mother of the minotaur. Circe cared for the baby minotaur until ..."
What a great reference. I put that book on my toread list. I hadn't heard of it.
This is one of the first Borges stories I read. I have a secret fondness for it, maybe because I love animals so much. It sort of touched me.
There are the familiar themes and structures. He begins with a quote (this one from mythology but sounding official, like it's actual history):
And the queen gave birth to a son named Asterion. Apollodorus, Library, Ill:iHe plays with identity. Who is the narrator? We find out only at the end. In Crete, the Minotaur was known by the name Asterion, a name shared with the King of Crete who was also the foster-father of Minos.
And I like the way he tells the story from the point of view of the Minotaur, similar to stories like Grendel, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, and Wyrd Sisters, where the protagonists/narrators are not the traditional hero.
Sam wrote: "I first was introduced to Calvino and Borges from Umberto Eco and at the time was caught up in semiotics and reader-response criticism. Even to this day, I look at Borges' stories as fictional repr..."What a marvelous analysis of Borges!
And I agree with you on The Dead Man.
Sometimes it is difficult to get an understanding of the nature of a character--such as the minotaur--until a writer or storyteller or painter shows us an aspect we had not considered or been fully able to imagine.I could imagine that at some point that the baby minotaur was an innocent--that way why Circe was able to care for her nephew. . . .And as strange as it seems to me, it may be that the minotaur retained innocence. After all wild animals do what wild animals do, things that may not alter its sense of self/place in the world.
Klowey, there is also another retelling you may like--Ariadne by Jennifer Saint was niece to Circe and half-sister to the minotaur :/
Reading " Ibh-Hakam al-Bokhari, Murdered in His Labyrinth" & "The Two Kings and the Two Labyrinths".Here's Dante showing up again. In Dante's vision of the minotaur the creature has a human body with a bull's head. Such a minotaur would be perhaps less scary-strong that when the human-body/bull's head creature travels through town, the people are quietly frightened, by not screamingly frightened.
Here is a retelling again. Which is true story if wealthy men destroying each other? Don't know about that. But do know that powerful men do sometimes set out to one up their business rival that something disastrous happens, something that cannot be undone.
Cynda wrote: "Sometimes it is difficult to get an understanding of the nature of a character--such as the minotaur--until a writer or storyteller or painter shows us an aspect we had not considered ir been fully..."Thank you for the reference.
Yes I like these kinds of stories.
The Mists of Avalon was another I think, the Arthurian legend told from the perspective of the women.
Yes I so loved the Mists of Avalon about 20 years ago. I read it after watching the TNT movie by the same name. The movie is nothing compared to the book.
Reading "The Wait"There is a baaaackstory here, and the only thing we can figure out is that out man is some kinda illegal operator-thug that tries to be smart but isn't overly smart. He is smart enough to read Dante--Dante again--but not smart enough to follow a good plan. Or maybe he wants to be found out. . . . .No more as I do not want to completely spoil the story.
Reading "The Man on the Threshold"I live in the US where new groups of people immigrate to our shores, helping us to be ever more diverse and expansive--yet there must be something to a culture that works more as a unit like we see here. It seems that so many were thinking, deciding, and doing in unison, more or less.
Reading "The Aleph"Don't you just love Borges the writer through his narrator makes fun of a librarian much in the way that writers make fun of their writer characters ;-) The librarian here: Beatriz Viterbo's cousin Carlos Argentino.
Now the cousin the librarian-writer makes fun of the would-be lover of Beatriz Viterbo.
The librarian-writer & the would-be lover make fun of each other. Yet it was never a fair competition to begin with!
I will be back in a couple of days after I get a start on some other reading. I will come back to read The Maker which is collection hort short stories.
"about "The Theologians"Cynda wrote: "about "The Theologians"
This article might help understand the gist of the story:
https://abovethelaw.com/2017/12/the-t...
The writer of the caliber of Borges leaves nothing to chance--as ..."
I didn't love this story, but I liked it better after reading your comments. The article you linked to and the wikipedia article helped me appreciate the full range of what it was about. From wikipedia, the last line:
"The Theologians" is a story about our struggle to discern truth, and the folly that befalls us when we cast aside other notions of truth, however barbaric, only later to see that we had cast our own selves into the flames countless times into eternity."However, your analysis and especially:
"Sender--Message--Listener/Reader." In the middle of the triangle sometimes is included "Context."turned my view around. I like it more now. Maybe it did need a contemporary reference.
Many thanks!
"Story of the Warrior and the Captive Maiden"Cynda wrote: "about "Story of the Warrior and the Captive Maiden"
We have stories about people going native or choosing to stay overseas after finishing a tour or a semester abroad.
There are a variety, maybe ..."
I am seeing so many themes of identity revisited in Borges, especially the identity of two people, their memories, their destinies, and I think also time passing. What does time do to memory, also seen in "The Immortals."
I've already finished A Biography of Tadeo Isidoro Cruz (1829 - 1874) and I see the identity theme in that story too.
Is this the story of one person, or are the two the same, did they merge in some way that is all that matters? Are we immortal because the nature of our identity is to merge with our surrounding over time. Very much what you also said.
I want to quote Sam here because what he said seems so relevant:
I tend to view the stories as interrelated from that perspective rather than individual stories so each story is dependent upon the relationship to the others for full meaning and all contribute toward a fuller understanding of literature.I thought I read somewhere that, in many ways, Borges writes the same story, over and over. And as mentioned earlier when we were comparing TOCs, he has in fact rewritten a number of them.
Yeah. Mystery that.I am reading with a sci-fi and fantasy group. I told them that reading this Borges book is something like reading science fiction. You have hit upon it: Time.
I would also say space. Borges often or always tells us where the story takes place.
And there is even esoteric information. We will wait to discuss until you read The Aleph.
Cynda wrote: "Yeah. Mystery that.I am reading with a sci-fi and fantasy group. I told them that reading this Borges book is something like reading science fiction. You have hit upon it: Time.
I would also say..."
Oh yes, the occult. I read "The Aleph" and "The Zahir" years ago so am excited to reread and discuss. It's been said that those two are thematic opposites. Looking forward to it.
Your comment on space/location is right on target. So now is the time for me to ask a pressing question I've had since I first read Borges. I don't feel that I completely understand his use of specific details on dates, history, names (both fictional and real, though I know he likes to play with that and intermix them). In fact, the female characters in "The Aleph" and "The Zahir" I think refer to a real woman who was his muse. More on that when I get to it.
But I have never read an author who has so much "meta-historic" detail, if I may express it that way.
I think I understand some of it, but it's so pervasive.
Cynda wrote: "Yeah. Mystery that.I am reading with a sci-fi and fantasy group. I told them that reading this Borges book is something like reading science fiction. You have hit upon it: Time.
I would also say..."
Have you read Ted Chiang in your science fiction group? He is a huge fan of Borges.
Ahhh that's the book we have just finished, and some of us are still discussing. Others did describe some of the stories as being "Borgesian". I will have to research what that means. Ahhh one those coincidences huh. . . .
Another point about Borges is his stories do not end with the reading. They are to be pondered or thoughts they spawn are to be pondered. They are to be reread anf reread. They are to stimulate new readings from unread texts new and old and to suggest new perspectives on previously read texts, thus perhaps goading us to reading them once again with thoughts modified from reading Borges. And we constantly are prompted into more thought by the comparisons to Borges' stories. Many authors can get us to reread but I think Borges was a master at it. It seems his goal. Some of these stories I have not read in a long time and had almost completely forgotten. The Theologians is such a story. The story is almost classically academic in tone, actually pendantic, if one doesn't mean it insultingly. Then we have the little ending ironic twist which is more the philosophy of speculative fiction, but beyond all that is that question of identity and the moral element that IMO helps make these stories classic.
Both of you nailed The House of Asterion. I would add that the intelligence and pride that that the narration shows cannot hide the despondence felt and how that is reaffirmed at the end when Theseus remarks how the creature barely defended itself. I find that story moving.
Restating the thought that these stories are so much richer when compared to other works by Borges and others, I found Deutsches Requiem quite chilling, reading it now after Arendt's Banality of Evil. There are multiple lines that comtributed to that feeling like the sense of contentment in defeat or that idea that England is the hammer and Germany the anvil. I read Legacy of Violence: A History of the British Empire by Caroline Elkins last year and though I felt she overstated her points, there is truth to what was said and all countries practice a rationalized viloence for their own selfish interests very often.
I look forward to reading and comparing Zahir and Aleph again.
I too read Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil by Hannah Arendt when we had a buddy read here last year. Eichmann too wanted to help but got caught up in the banality of evil. I will look at Legacy of Violence: A History of the British Empire. A similar premise can be found in Prisoners of Geography: Ten Maps That Tell You Everything You Need to Know About Global Politics by Tim Marshall. Similarly Marshall may have overstated his argument, but not by much.
Our discussion here has helped me write a review for Stories of Your Life and Others by Ted Chiang. Thank you.
Cynda wrote: "about Emma ZunzThe speed and simplicity if the story was just right. Good match between subject and style. The last sentence was so right
. . . . .
Question. The narrator says that the letter wr..."
I completely agree with you. I loved the last line. And it seems like one of Borges most accessible and straightforward stories.
I have no idea who wrote the letter. I wonder if Sam does. I might do some research.
Maybe the mystery is intentional. The magic and mystery of words. . . .maybe.
Are we also reading the other shorter stories? If we are, I am ready to start reading and then posting comments here.
Klowey wrote: "Cynda wrote: "about Emma ZunzThe speed and simplicity if the story was just right. Good match between subject and style. The last sentence was so right
. . . . .
Question. The narrator says that..."
I do not know. I tried to figure out if it were important but found nothing. It may have been just awkward phrasing. I looked up Fein in the finder's guide at the Borges Center but I found nothing to help. I am providing the link for there are lots of references that do help at that site.
https://www.borges.pitt.edu/finders-g...
Thank you Sam for trying to find out about Emma Zunz. Yes awkward phrasing probably of the translator's.
I wouldn't be surprised if who sent the letter was meant to remain a mystery. And I wonder if Fein suggests feign, pretend, The text did say that Fein signed the letter. It did not say he wrote it.
Cynda wrote: "Are we also reading the other shorter stories? If we are, I am ready to start reading and then posting comments here."I'm reading in order the TOC from the Aleph section in the Hurley book of most of Borges' short stories.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Then I planned to continue with this TOC, that includes The Maker collection of stories.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I also have a copy of the version that Sam is reading, but I would do that last. And I'm happy to read that too.
Like Sam, I need to take these a bit slow, since there is so much to think about.
Oh good Klowey. The Penguin edition I am reading from has The Maker selection. Will you let.me know when you start The Maker so that we can read together? And I will see about keeping up to date on what you are reading too. I have been going slow as I have been rereading some. But my focus was on the Ted Chaing book. I will go back and reread some The
Aleph now so that I can write a review.
about A Biography of Tadeo Isidoro Cruz (1829 - 1874)about The Other Death
Well apparently I liked these two stories, which I find very similar. Sorry for the rambling stream of consciousness. I wanted to write a review for each immediately after I read them, but I was too tired. Now, 2 days later, I feel like I need to reread them. Borges is not easy to review.
I see some overlapping themes in these two stories (and also with others). I mentioned earlier the identity theme, who is the protagonist, what do we use to define him (memory, written history) and what is his view of himself? From "Cruz":
it was in a manhunt and in the man he was hunting that he learned who he was.Many of the stories (read so far or remembered from previous readings) involve two people, or two identities (e.g. "Borges and I") or different memories of history (e.g. "The Other Death") or perspectives (e.g. "Asterion") or different possibilities for outcomes (e.g. "Garden of Forking Paths"). Is our destiny pre-determined? Is it dependent on our heritage? Here are two quotes from "Cruz":
He realized that one destiny is no better than the next and that every man must accept the destiny he bears inside himself.and
. . . he realized that the other man was he himself.Another theme in an earlier story (maybe "Warrior/Maiden") and later in "The Circular Ruins" he talks about the circularity and repetition of history and, in a metaphysical way, identity.
I find this quote interesting from "Cruz":
The adventure is recorded in a very famous book— that is, in a book whose subject can be all things to all men (I Corinthians 9:22), for it is capable of virtually inexhaustible repetitions, versions, perversions."Cruz" and "The Dead Man" also include revered heroes or famous leaders that the protagonist either follows or someone he confronts (jealousy) for power ("The Theologians"). Borges mentions Martín Fierro many times in several stories besides these two. For BINGO N1 and N2 I'm reading about this famous Gaucho figure.
I like the way Borges suggests ambiguity. From "Cruz":
The dim and hardy story of his life is full of gaps. Around 1868, we hear of him once more in Pergamino, married or living with a woman . . .He often uses phrases of the kind "it could be this, or that" and "we hear of" or "some say" or "it has been said that" or "he had been seen" which implies a level of indirection, so to speak. I think he makes me feel like his stories are almost mysteries. And in some ways, they are. Solving the mysteries of what it means to exist, to have identity, to live with uncertain memories, questionable knowledge.
I wonder if anyone has made a spreadsheet of the repeated themes in Borges' stories. Someone actually did something similar for Agatha Christie's mysteries and the murderer/victim/motive/weapon/method/etc. Unfortunately the article is now behind a paywall, but I was able to downloaded it when it was fresh (html webpage) if you're interested.
I'm going to stop, but I'm open to more discussion on these stories. Thanks to both of you for making this buddy read happen.
Before I forget myself. I am about caught up on my other reviews, so I will be returning near a second read through.I am starting to seem repeated elements.
Ambiguity is an element in "Emma Zunz" and in both "Ibh-Hakam-Bokhri, Murdered in his Labyrinth" & "The Two Kings and the Two Labyrinths."
Duality is an element in "Two Theologians" and "The Two Kings and the Two Labyrinths".
Space is in all the addresses and other locations named.
I will be back in a day or two.
FYI:There is a good film that has similar themes to The Other Death and A Biography of Tadeo Isidoro Cruz. It's based on Borges' short story, Theme of the Traitor and the Hero that was published in the collection "Artificios," which itself is part of the larger collection, "Ficciones." The film summary is here if you are interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spi...
I am not sure if we are finished with the discussion. I am stopping with the finish of The Aleph. I will come back to reading more stories but want to digest those I have read awhile before moving forward. We haven't said much on The Aleph. The story was IMO, the best in the collection and easily one my my favorite stories of all time. There is too much to parse in what little time I have today but I love comparing this story to Poe's The Cask of Amontillado: A Classic Horror; Original 1846 Edition, which I feel is a necessary prerequsite to the Borges story. If you have not read the Poe story, or haven't read it in some time, I suggest it as a companion read. Borges seems to find a perfect level of balance between the emotional appeal of the Poe story and the more intellectual appeal preferred by the academician in The Aleph that is rarely achieved. I love the balance. I invite more thoughts on the story,
I was reading in order, but I'll read "The Aleph" next and then "The Zahir" since I think they make a good comparison.
Hi all.I took a break from Borges and have just come back to The Aleph. Borges is mentally exhausting for me, as much as a I love him. And I really appreciate this buddy read to encourage me.
So I just finished "Deutsches Requiem" which I was not that fond and don't have much to say about. I gave it a ***.
I also finished "Averroes' Search" and I think this one is a little over my head and I'll have to reread. But I did see some interesting and repeated themes. Identity again, transformation of the individual. I know I'm not fully understanding his references to Aristotle, the roses, and perhaps the Quran. I enjoyed it enough but I think a more experienced "Klowey" reader of Borges will appreciate it more someday.
I read The Zahir but want to review it alongside The Aleph, as I see them as two-sides of a coin (no pun) so to speak.
I'll be continuing the book and making comments here.
I just finished "The Wait." What an absolutely exquisite, accessible, and iconic Borges, imo. It's short, straightforward, beautifully written and contains the standard Borges' ideas: identity, two people with somehow mingled identities, life/death, time, subtle mystery tossed into the story like a light scarf casually thrown onto a chair:"I must act so that everyone will forget me. I've made two mistakes: I've paid with a coin from another country and I've let this man see that the mistake matters."
"In now-distant days—distant less because of the lapse of time than because of two or three irrevocable acts—"
I felt a rhythm reading this story. I could feel a breeze off the balcony. I loved the wallpaper.
"Years of solitude had taught him that although in one's memory days all tend to be the same, there wasn't a day, even when a man was in jail or hospital, that didn't have its surprises. During other periods of isolation he had given in to the temptation to count the days (and even the hours), but this isolation was different, because there was no end to it—unless the newspaper should bring him news one morning of the death of Alejandro Villari. "
I loved this one.
I would say that to those just beginning their exploration of Borges I'd start with "The Book of Sand," this one, "The Garden of Forking Paths," and then maybe "The Circular Ruins," and "The Secret Miracle."
Others?
Comments?
Thoughts?
Hi Klowey. I will get back with you. I will have to dig out my copy. May take me a day or two, but I will come back.
Klowey wrote: "I just finished "The Wait." What an absolutely exquisite, accessible, and iconic Borges, imo. It's short, straightforward, beautifully written and contains the standard Borges' ideas: identity, two..."I like The Wait as well. I believe its full appreciation is enhanced from a knowledge of three classic stories that preceded it: Wakefield, Nathaniel Hawthorne 1835; William Wilson:, Edgar Allan Poe 1839; and The Killers, Ernest Hemingway 1927. The Killers had a film adaptation directed by Robert Siodmak in 1946 and starring Burt Reynolds which expands on the Hemingway story and may have also been an influence. I suugest you read the aforementioned stories and come back to The Wait for a further evaluation. Borges was a master at writing new works that alluded to older works, but from a refreshing point of view. With The Wait, he manages to link the three previous works in a way that almost feels that the original authors had imagined The Wait being written in the future when they were writing their stories.
I hope you and Cynda post your thoughts on the story The Aleph. That was my favorite of the volume.
What wonderful information. Many thanks. I had heard of Wakefield, which looks very good; and also The Killers because my favorite director (as a student) made a short film based on it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kil...
I am forever amazed at the complexity of Borges' stories that I had never considered or known of.
Cynda wrote: "Hi Klowey. I will get back with you. I will have to dig out my copy. May take me a day or two, but I will come back."Please don't rush. Borges is a lifelong endeavor for me, and I am always up for discussing. I also seem to need to take it slow. I probably think about his stories longer afterward than it took to read each.
Klowey wrote: "What wonderful information. Many thanks. I had heard of Wakefield, which looks very good; and also The Killers because my favorite director (as a student) made a short film based on it.https://en...."
Yes the Tarkovsky. I did not mention it or other adaptations as they were made too late to influence Borges but the Siodak was released a few years before Borges published the story. You will enjoy the other stories as well, but after reading them, I think you will see how Borges is drawing from them and thus uniting them in a fictional universe. There may be many more influences as well. I just wanted to note those three. There is a lot of supportive criticism on this out there as well.
I just finished Ibn-Hakam al-Bokhari, Murdered in his Labyrinth and The Two Kings and the Two Labyrinths.The two go together and the second one is only two pages.
I liked both. More repeated themes of labyrinths, revenge, dreams, identity, homage to history and foreign cultures. I also liked, once again, a story being told within the story, and a twist at the end.
The more Borges I read, the more I see him playing with a core set of themes and presenting them in new ways.
Audible just came out with some new narrations of his "Collected Fictions" from the Hurley translation with a narrator I like, Castulo Guerra. There's also a new audiobook of his Selected Non-Fictions, Volume 3, with translations by Esther Allen and Suzanne Jill Levine , narrated by: Diego Diment, who seems good.
Cynda wrote: "Reading "The Man on the Threshold"I live in the US where new groups of people immigrate to our shores, helping us to be ever more diverse and expansive--yet there must be something to a culture th..."
I just finished this story. I have to say it is the least Borges-like of any of his stories that I have read. I didn't quite sound like Borges.
And, I didn't really "get" the story. I wonder if there are more reviews besides the wikipedia entry.
Now, to finish with a reread of The Aleph.
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
Books mentioned in this topic
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This Craft of Verse (other topics)
The Aleph (other topics)
William Wilson: (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Umberto Eco (other topics)László Krasznahorkai (other topics)
Nathaniel Hawthorne (other topics)
Edgar Allan Poe (other topics)
Ernest Hemingway (other topics)
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The Rio Grande do Sul is a state of Brazil that shares borders with Argentina and Uruguay.
The Paso del Molino is a district within city of Montevideo.
This infirmation from the Penguin edition.