Group Reads Discussions 2023: "Legends & Lattes" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

[Leonie]

So, after confessing that I started (and finished) this book before the New Year in the first impressions thread, I ran over here so that I can do spoilers.

Firstly, I loved, loved, loved, this book. It was such a relief to read something that felt good, despite the inherent sadness in bits, that I couldn't stop reading.

The loving descriptions of coffee - I also love coffee, especially the first latte of the day - were fabulous. And Thimble's pastry delights particularly made me want to run out and make cinnamon rolls for the first time in years. Fortunately I'm away at the moment in a different state, or my husband and I would have way too many of them to eat! However, when I get home....

I really enjoyed the characters, because they were different to the stereotypes we so often see in fantasy stories, and because each of them was completely different. I really hope that Travis Baldree writes more about them, so we can see them in even more depth.

I appreciated the twist after the fire - Viv's real despair, contrasted with Tandri's optimism, and the feel good moments of 'the team' working together. Such a lovely story. Something that I really enjoyed and (I think) needed to read.

[Kristin B.]

I loved this book so much I read it twice in 2022 before it was ever a book club book.

Found family is a particular weakness of mine. I will likely read this for a third time in the not too distant future. And I will definitely be watching for more from this author.

Ditto everything Leonie said with an addition that I want a dire cat to hang around at all times.

[Robynne]

Loved this book!! Gave it 5/5 stars.

Like Leonie above, I read it all in one day and could not put it down!!

I love the Found Family trope. The romance was an unexpected twist. But Viv has been on her own for so many years, she really needs to find someone to love.

My review is up with spoilers.

[Leonie]

Ooh, yes, Kristin, I love all things cats, so how could I have left out the magnificent dire cat? So much love for it at the end 😊😊😊

[Josh]

I read this book a few days before the new year. Overall gave it a 4/5 stars.

Love the "cottage core" fantasy and I blazed through this book in one day. The love story was fun and real as well. I thought it was really well executed, especially since the vast majority of fantasy deals with high stakes action and complicated politics/magic. Very enjoyable and I am glad I read it. Also, I think that I consumed 3 pots of coffee while reading this, it definitely made me crave it

However...the re-read potential is (for me) not high at all. Given the overall simplicity of the book, there really isn't much in the way of in-depth analysis, something a really love in a fantasy or science fiction story. This is the reason that it didn't hit me as "amazing", is that I don't see it getting better with multiple reads.

Overall, given the fact that I read it all in one sitting and that I smiled the entire time while doing so, I still thought this was a charming and very enjoyable read. While I know that I will probably never pick it up again, I highly recommend this book to any lovers of fantasy/D&D/or coffee.

[Cheryl]

I agree about rereading it. I'm sure I will someday, but it is a bit too 'easy' to want to do so already. That being said, I do highly recommend it to anyone at all interested! And if y'all come up with discussion issues or whatever, I may reread it asap after all.

[Jen]

I read this book late last year, so I'm cheating a bit but I thoroughly enjoyed it. I play D&D and have a lot of friends that do as well, so this book was right up my ally. It hits the comfy character-driven aspects that I and others enjoy about D&D (we're a less destroy the world ending evil kind of group to be fair) and I've fully jumped on board the cozy fiction train. While others think the rereading potential might not be high, I know if I got in the mood to make a one shot or D&D campaign that was more cottage core cozy I'd go right to this book for inspiration. All in all, it was a quaint and loveable book. Also, Thimble <3

[Elma]

It seems I'm very much in the minority here in that I mostly found this book to be "okay".

That's not at all to say I disliked the story, and I can definitely see why it's very popular and why a lot of people would enjoy it very much - the cozy, wholesomeness of it all is something that's very much needed in current times.

It's more that it didn't really leave a strong impact on me either way - the characters were nice, if maybe a little too much so and too agreeable (for plot reasons, I know - the whole stone bringing likeminded people together and all), but unfortunately I just didn't really get all that invested in them.

I think if it were a longer story, went a bit more into the world-building aspect and deeper into the characters I would have connected with it more - as it stands though, it was a nice enough, light read, but not one that left a lasting impression.

[Colin]

I read this back at the end of November when we were passing it around among family. I liked it a lot and looking back, I still do. Overall, this is a feel-good book with interesting characters who are well-developed, and a light tone. It's a nice story. I found the basic storyline, with an orc who gives up her mercenary warfare career to open a coffee shop, original and fun. (Yes, I like coffee shops and pastry!) The plot line with the local mob is predictable but in keeping with the general tenor of the book. The romance that develops between Viv and Tandri is sweet and understated. (I would not classify the book as a romance.) The way the actual working of the stone differs from the original assumption is not surprising, but it works for the story. The world building is a bit shallow. The plot armor is very clear. Again, it works for this type of book. Clearly, some things I like here are the same things others do not. I don't have any feelings about re-reading primarily because I haven't re-read anything in a few decades. So, for me, that's not important. Anyway, I'll order another coffee. (And I'd like a dire cat too!)

[Daniel]

I really enjoyed legends and lattes great characters that were well fleshed out, a simple but fun storyline that keeps you engaged and all the coffee and bakery details that I love getting behind. The way he pops things in there like the iced coffee I could see from when that first guy said he doesn't like hot drinks and that payoff is always fun when the iced drink is finally put on the menu.

I do agree with a few other comments about the reread ability of this one and don't really see myself rereading it but it was a fun ride. I could easily see myself reading a book two in this although the storyline wraps up nicely where it ended. Maybe she could start a chain now that the first shop is stable?

All said and done I liked it a lot and gave it a 4/5 stars.

[CBRetriever]

it was a nice mood changer after Halfhead

[Kaia]

I finished this one last night, and I really enjoyed it. As so many people have already said, it was cozy and fun, and I liked the characters and appreciated the low-stakes conflict. It's nice to occasionally read something where you know things will be okay in the end and nothing too bad will happen. I also love found-family stories and characters who support each other. The ending with the dire-cat was very satisfying - I love that the cat was never explained and just came and went throughout the story. I would definitely read another book set in this world with these characters - it would be fun to learn more about the backstories for some of the supporting characters, like the chess player and Thimble (and the cat). I'm not sure if I'll re-read it, but I will certainly be recommending it to others.

[Kirsi]

I just finished it last night and really enjoyed it. Adorable characters and warm, cozy vibes. I understand the popularity now, and I would absolutely read more from this author. The world needs more books like Legends & Lattes.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sorry, beginning of the year had me sluggish! A few questions I'd love to discuss:

1. Do we think the stone actually did something or that Viv "manifested" what she wanted by putting work into herself and her environment in a way that got her to notice when people she'd align with came into her life?

2. There are a lot of "not light" things in this book like organized crime, war, discrimination and arson. How do you think the book managed to keep things feeling cozy?

3. What did you think of how the characters grew around each other?

4. What worked or didn't for you?

[CBRetriever]

1 not sure
2 good writing. I have to admit I was initially put off by the cozy description
3 pretty good but the romance at the end felt kinda tacked on
4 see three

[Chris]

I was reminded of the Stone Soup folk tale. The stone's myth gave Viv the courage to try something new. Viv's vision of the coffee house, and later the coffee house itself, brought people together in a community.

[Colin]

Allison wrote: "Sorry, beginning of the year had me sluggish! A few questions I'd love to discuss:

1. Do we think the stone actually did something or that Viv "manifested" what she wanted by putting work into her..."

1. I think this can be read either way. I prefer the interpretation that the power of the stone is to bring together the right group of people. I like this because it runs counter to what is believed about the stone through much of the book. You could, I agree, read it that the stone is actually just a stone. That it is Viv, by her effort and belief in the stone, who brings it all into being.
2. I may be a minority of one on this item, but here goes anyway. (Disclaimer - I've called this a feel-good, happy book. I'm not that sure of what a "cozy" is.) Yes, as above, there are bad things in here such as organized crime, war and arson. However, although the crime boss is presented as someone who could do evil things, we do not see her do anything like that. She comes to a modus vivendi with Viv and actually helps out after the fire. She is not actually portrayed as a realistic mob boss. War is very peripheral to the story. It's in the background, of course, but we are never hit in the face with a realistic portrayal of war. Similarly with the arson. We know Fennus is going to do something against Viv. The plot demands it. It occurs late enough that we can be secure that our characters will be okay (good time for plot armor) and the fire allows people to show resilience, growth and sense of community. These are all things I would intensely dislike in a book that is supposed to be an epic with battles, action, and adventure. However, for me, they work fine in a book about a found family centered around a coffee shop. As I said above, this may be just me and my taste. (My taste right now being an espresso and a bun.)
3. I liked the characters. I thought Viv and Tandri fit well together and evolved in a way that made sense.
4. So, yes, the story overall worked. I do think the world-building was shallow. There was a lot that was unexplained and had to be taken as "that's just the way it is." However, if the author were to really fill in a lot of that detail, the warfare, the criminal underworld of the town, the "other side" of characters would need to be fleshed out. Then the nasty stuff winds up in our faces and we lose the sweetness and pleasure of the story. And it is the story of a coffee shop and the person who makes it real.

My apology for my long-winded and, probably, singular perspective.

[Jenni]

I really enjoyed this book and like others breezed through it quickly. I listened to the audiobook and it was the first time I listened to one that the author narrated themselves! I thought that was pretty cool and I loved all the voices he did for the characters.

1. Do we think the stone actually did something or that Viv "manifested" what she wanted by putting work into herself and her environment in a way that got her to notice when people she'd align with came into her life?

I agree with what someone said above. The stone itself didn't really do anything, it was more of a placebo affect. The idea of the stone's power motivated Viv to go after her dreams. It was Viv's good business sense and listening to her associates and customers to make improvements and changes to the shop that lead to Viv's success. If it had been the stone, she would have been successful off the bat and she wasn't. It took some time before it caught on and there was a good customer base.

2. There are a lot of "not light" things in this book like organized crime, war, discrimination and arson. How do you think the book managed to keep things feeling cozy?

I guess they keep things cozy by showcasing themes of perseverance and determination.

3. What did you think of how the characters grew around each other?

I enjoyed the characters and felt that they were believable. I liked the interactions between Tandri and VIv, but wanted more. I loved that little chess player gnome and wish we could have learned more about him.

4. What worked or didn't for you?

I guess I already kinda answered this in #3 with my thoughts on the characters and when I said about the guy doing the voices. I really liked it. I would definitely read a sequel if there ever were one.

[CBRetriever]

the guy who wrote the book is very well known for audiobook readings

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Colin, I think those are great and comprehensive thoughts! I agree that I think part of the feel good or whatever you want to call that "vibe" is that we just aren't forced to think too hard about the sad parts.

Jenni, I like your ideas that the support/strength side of the characters coming together to get through the hardship also gave it that feel good/cozy air.

I also think I'm with you, I don't know that the stone was actually magic. But maybe it helped, monkey paw fashion?

[Anna]

Nov 2023: Bookshops & Bonedust

[Kirsi]

Bookshop?!? GIMME!

[Anna]

I and others have already said this all over the group, but Can't Spell Treason Without Tea by Rebecca Thorne is inspired by L&L and is about a bookshop* combined with a tea shop. F/F, human mage and human warrior who retires. More to come in the series, but no idea when. The plots are very similar, but there are enough differences that they're not the same book.

* I have to say, it felt more like a tea shop book, the bookshop part wasn't that prominent.

(Also check out the Cozy SFF thread.)

[Cynda]

In my mind's eye, I am imagining Shrek's and Fiona's daughter operating a coffee shop.

For many years I was a frequenter of a local coffee shop owned and operated by a man from Turkey. I liked lattes and mochas made with fresh roasted and fresh ground coffee. I wonder if there will be any roasting of coffee here in the novel.

[Kevin]

Just finished Legends and Lattes and really enjoyed it. It was a very fun, lighthearted romp and the perfect read to start the new year. The characters were enjoyable to read about and I actively looked forward to hanging with them. Really enjoyed the the themes of friendship. Just a feel good story with interesting characters.

[Bobby]

1. Do we think the stone actually did something ...

I think the old chess player said that the stone did magically bring like people together.

2. There are a lot of "not light" things...feeling cozy?

To me the author just took the sting out of everything except the coffee house burning down. For example, the mob boss turns out to be an elderly lady who likes pastries. It felt off to me a little.

3. What did you think of how the characters grew...

I liked the carpenter and the baker. Also the bard and the magic student. The main two characters (female orc and succubus fall in love) just didn't work for me. I guess it is like 2. the author took all the sting out of the evil orc and demon and made them happy go lucky nice guys. Yuck.

4. What worked or didn't for you?

Liked the cat, chess player, carpenter, baker, student, bard. I worried that the coffee beans would be stale. Did they roast the beans themselves? Seems like they would need to get beans more often if they were roasted in some distant nation.
I thought the food descriptions were a little tedious. Reminded me of the Discworld books where Pratchett mixed modern world things in a swords and sorcery world for humor and to make points. The bard reminded me of the main bard in The Name of the Wind. It was easy to read and I enjoyed most of it.

[CBRetriever]

The main two characters (female orc and succubus fall in love) just didn't work for me.

felt like they were just thrown together at the end to put a little romance in the book. It wouldn't have been missed.

[Cynda]

I feel similarly to CBRetriever about the friendship romance. . . .Yet I immediately recognized the social commentary that this or that social group is to be accepted as just another part of society. In my lifetime, I have seen similar commentary about people of color, women, people who have sex before marriage, so now we as a society are working on accepting LGBTQ people. In Legends and Lattes, we have commentary lite--which fits into the comfortable fantasy subgenre. Here readers can hope for developing friendship that may lead to marriage or hope that the hug and kiss were a result of an emotional time, whichever makes the reader more comfortable.

[CBRetriever]

I was pretty sure it was to be a sharing of bed and bedroom and lives situation at the end of the book. To me it's just that there was no inkling of this possible relationship/feeling and all of a sudden it was the main thrust of the story.

It just felt added on. If there had been hints at it before it would have flowed better. Or maybe I just missed them. It wasn't like Luck in the Shadows where it was part and parcel of the story almost from the beginning (excellent book)

[Cynda]

Added on social commentary is my feeling. I have seen social commentary threaded a bit through but not really necessary to the story for almost 6 decades. I hear you and agree with you on the added on part.

Unless I heard the audiobook wrong, I heard that Viv showed her own bedroom and then walked down the hall to show her friend her friend's room.

[CBRetriever]

she did - I read it too quickly and I just went back and reread it to verify.

[Cynda]

Okay :-)

[Mareike]

I really enjoyed this. I needed something cozy!

To Allison's questions:

1. I think the stone mostly had a Placebo effect. It made Viv think she could achieve what she'd put her mind to, so Viv was more confident about doing it. But mostly it was Viv herself. Like, when she was looking for a carpenter, she took the time to find someone who fit what she wanted AND made sure to treat Cal better than most people, e.g. when she put the money in his hand rather than tossing it to him during their first talk. There are similar things in her interactions with the other characters, like how she didn't push Tandri about her past until Tandri was ready to open up. Or how she encouraged Pendry.

2. Mostly by not dwelling on those things too much, I'd say. They're sprinkled in as a reminder, but aren't overpowering. Honestly, the easy way the situation with the Madrigal was resolved is maybe one of my few quibbles with the book. Even though I *like* that Viv figured out a solution by going to talk to her.

3. I really liked watching all of them grow more comfortable (and in some cases confident) around each other. I love a good found family dynamic and for me, the book could have spent even more time on some of that growth. I'd have loved POV changes, for example.

4. Some things were a little too convenient, maybe (see my point about the Madrigal above), but it's basically a coffee shop AU, so I'm not too bothered by that.

[Cynda]

Mareike, will you please explain "coffee shop AU"?

[Bobby]

Thinking more about it the two bedrooms was a nice light touch. They kissed and had feelings but it was not the overt sexual content that you find in harsher books. Part of what made it cozy perhaps.

[Kristin B.]

Cynda wrote: "Mareike, will you please explain "coffee shop AU"?"

I'm not Mareike but I can answer this one! It's a fanfiction term. It's when you take the characters of a story and put them in an Alternate Universe (AU) that takes place in a coffee shop. It's a really popular trope in fanfiction because it gives fan authors a chance to see their favorite characters, who often inhabit drama-filled stories, just be normal and cozy. Legends and Lattes uses that trope but with original characters instead of ones borrowed from another story.

Hope that helps!

[Cynda]

It does Kristin. Particularly since I think of Viv as the grownup daughter of Shrek and Fiona. Thanks :-)

[Steve]

I enjoyed, it breezed through it like others! There's a prequel coming this year and I'll probably read that eventually too.

Re the bedroom situation - they did kiss but it was separate rooms, seems a slow burning romance perhaps, no pressure!

EDIT: Rated it 4/5. Was gonna go 3 but realised I quite enjoyed my experience reading it so opted for 4, 3 felt a bit low!
Also - the first time I'm reading a monthly pick alongside everyone! Usually I just do the challenge where it's from any month on the bookshelf.

[Cynda]

The prequel is about 1 hour on audiobook. It is available on Scribd, on the same audio book as Legends & Lattes, at the end of the novel, at the end of the story (rather than before) as the last chapter. . . . I have yet to listen to it. . . . . May be available on Audible version?

[Nelle]

The new novel set in the Legends & Lattes universe, Bookshops & Bonedust, isn't released until late this year. It has been sent off to copyediting, though (per Travis Baldree's twitter). :)

Can't wait to read it!!

[Leonie]

1. Do we think the stone actually did something or that Viv "manifested" what she wanted by putting work into herself and her environment in a way that got her to notice when people she'd align with came into her life?

I think that the stone helped, but Viv's character helped more. The chess player commented that the stone brought like minded people together, but bringing and keeping are two different things. And they all stayed, despite the lack of stone.

2. There are a lot of "not light" things in this book like organized crime, war, discrimination and arson. How do you think the book managed to keep things feeling cozy?

I think it was the happy endings that resulted from all of those things. And the constant themes around Viv, who really didn't care about people's origins/races/background. She was the ultimate egalitarian employer.

3. What did you think of how the characters grew around each other?

I enjoyed the growth. And I have a humongous fondness for Thimble. In fact, I seriously want to meet Thimble and his lack of verbosity.

4. What worked or didn't for you?

I particularly loved the evocative writing about coffee. I love coffee, and have, over some years, become the quintessential Australian coffee snob. (🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️). That whole bit where Viv luxuriates in the first sip of the day - I totally do that.

[Cynda]

Nelle thanks for the clarification. The audio story I am talking about--now that I have checked--is a Legends and Lattes story--a bonus story, not a prequel.

For those interested, the audio story I am talking about is a bonus story on the audiobook version of Legends & Lattes.

[CBRetriever]

Cynda wrote: "Nelle thanks for the clarification. The audio story I am talking about--now that I have checked--is a Legends and Lattes story--a bonus story, not a prequel.

For those interested, the audio story ..."

it's a bonus story that is a prequel as it includes Viv's first encounter with coffee

[Cynda]

That's where the confusion lies. . . .

[Nelle]

Cynda wrote: "Nelle thanks for the clarification. The audio story I am talking about--now that I have checked--is a Legends and Lattes story--a bonus story, not a prequel.

For those interested, the audio story ..."

Very cool, Cynda! I read the book a few months ago, but am in the library queue for the audiobook. Will love having some bonus material!

[Mareike]

Sorry for the late reply, Cynda, I didn't get notifications for this thread. Kristin explained it perfectly, though. I love the thought of Viv as Shrek and Fiona's daughter!

[Cynda]

Thanks Mareike. It's what I figured :-)

[Mel]

I had such a craving while reading this, remembering cinnamon rolls. Burning my greedy fingers on the molten gooey center.

Story time: Once a year the US base in Misawa, Japan holds an air show, and groups of foreigners would make the 3-hour pilgrimage by train to purchase the fabled Cinnabon confections only available there. Bringing home boxes of America to friends to share. Gosh, haven't been in years...

Point is: FOUR. Definitely worth four! <3

[Mel]

1. I was definitely under the impression that the stone had power. Honestly the opposite gives me an icky feeling. Not a fan of the ability to "manifest" good outcomes worldview.

2. I think we're distracted away from mafia threats fairly quickly, and not meant to dwell in that space for long.

3. I second the love for Thimble <3
I love that he's met as he is, nothing's "wrong" with him for being quiet. And rightly applauded for his genius! If only we all had a Thimble in our kitchens.

4. I just love spending time with characters running errands and getting things done. A vicarious sense of accomplishment as I lie dormant under the covers. All the little bits of problemsolving that crop up, like the kitchen is getting overheated from too much baking! Oh dear, socially awkward confrontation with that customer who won't order anything... they did it, so I don't have to!