Who's Got a Challenge!!

[Joe]

So I'm sad that there's no challenge going on... I really enjoyed reading the Vorkosigan series with everyone, and we need to do one again. It seems the Wheel of Time one petered out, and the short story idea kinda never got started.

Here are a few ideas (not married to any of them, just getting the discussion started):

Old Man's War by John Scalzi (The first 4 of the 6 books were all nominated for best novel)

The Poppy War by RF Kuang (only a trilogy, but been on my list since it came out in 2019..seems to be completed now)

Tales of Alvin Maker by Orson Scott Card (alternate history with some magic.. I know he's got odious political views, but I really liked this when I read it long ago and it's due for a re-read)

Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells (who doesn't love Murderbot! I haven't read the last couple, probably will re-read them all when I do)

Heechee Saga by Frederik Pohl (First one was a hugo winner, the 2nd a nominee.. I LOVED Space Merchants.. didn't like Man Plus too much.. I've been told this is really good!)

Then, if we wanted to go really crazy.. there's the Honor Harrington books (probably close to 30 now) I've read most of them, some twice, but I could go again... it does start to peter out at the end.

Of course, mostly I like this stuff to find out about things I don't know, so make some suggestions!! This is just a quick list to get the conversation started. I want to do a challenge!

[Allan]

We slacked off a bit after Wheel of Time, and hesitated to start more challenges as members were having trouble keeping up even with monthly reads. I am not averse to starting a new, controlled challenge. We can collect a few ideas here and see who is interested.

I started reading Alvin Maker earlier this year to get the books off my shelf, and got through the first two in short order. Trying to work the third one in somewhere.

Jack McDevitt was suggested previously, either The Academy series or the Alex Benedict series. Over in the Evolution of SF group, of which some here are members, they are reading the first book of The Academy, The Engines of God, so maybe we can have a challenge to build on that. Four of the eight books were nominated for the Nebula. I read the first two but have not been able to get back to the series myself.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I was thinking we were going to do dragons by McCaffery or Darkover by Bradley. So let me throw those into the mix.

I would not mind trying Heechee and Murderot (love Murderot and want to reread). But the others you mention--I have already read, or read the first and stopped.

Maybe we just put up a poll with the possibilities

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I've finished The Engines of God recently and while it was interesting, I wasn't hooked up, so unsure if a lot of members will keep to the series. the same situation with Gateway

[Kalin]

I also had a blast with Vorkosigan, but wimped out for New Crobuzon and didn't have time for Wheel of Time. But I'd like to try another challenge.

Following on what Kateblue said, I propose we take nominations for series and vote on a challenge as we do for monthly reads. It's possible we do two different polls, one for a shorter series (duology or trilogy) and one for a longer one (2000+ pages). So if you want to nominate a series for each category length, that's cool.

Art's Series Guide thread has a mostly-complete list of them, and crosses through the ones we've read. There are a few others though, since the list hasn't been updated in a couple years. Other than what's marked...

We've already started:
Red Mars (KSR's Mars Trilogy #1)
Gateway (Heechee #1)

We've already completed:
Earthseed by Octavia Butler
The Once and Future King by T.H. White
Freyaverse by Charles Stross

[Kalin]

As for me, for long series I would nominate

Oxford Time Travel by Connie Willis Total pages: 2,377

Doomsday Book - 578pg HWBN NWBN
To Say Nothing of the Dog - 493pg HWBN NNBN
Blackout - 610pg HWBN NWBN
All Clear - 656pg HWBN NWBN

For short series:

Neanderthal Parallax by Robert J. SawyerTotal pages: 1,144

Hominids - 444pg HWBN
Humans - 334pg HNBN
Hybrids - 396pg

Art didn't include the last book in the trilogy for some reason so I updated the #s

[Rebecca]

Any interest in the Wayward Children series? They are novellas but I’ve just never gotten around to starting them.

[Allan]

Rebecca wrote: "Any interest in the Wayward Children series? They are novellas but I’ve just never gotten around to starting them."

I haven't ready any but have heard mixed reviews on them.

[Allan]

So, like Kalin, I reviewed the series guide and have summarized below. I see the first question as whether we want a long series or a short series - we only want one challenge at a time, I think.

If I was nominating one of each, I'd nominate Hyperion for long and Pern for short (the original trilogy - see below).

Long - 2000+
Oxford Time Travel
Tales of the Terran Republic
The Academy
Hyperion
The Uplift Saga (guide leaves off the last two books)
Mars Trilogy

1500+
Dragonriders of Pern (guide includes two nominees that are prequels to the original trilogy, which is about 900 pages)
The Book of the New Sun
Lensman
The Queendom of Sol

1200+
Snow Queen Cycle
Old Man's War
Darkover (guide has only the nominated books, there are numerous others)

Under 1200
Alvin Maker (guide shows first three books of six, that were nominated)
Gaea
Heechee (guide shows only the first two books)
Across Realtime

[Kalin]

Allan wrote: "we only want one challenge at a time, I think."

Should have clarified, I was thinking a short one to see us through 2022, and a longer one to start in 2023. So: consecutive, not concurrent.

[Rebecca]

That sounds good to me Kalin.

I utterly failed at the WoT challenge, but Gabi succeeded enough for all of us! ;) With the SFF in translation group I'm trying to get through the Witcher books (again, kinda failing there since I dnf-ed the #4th book). I just started the Vorkosigan series now since Audible has most of the audio versions. And I'd be down for a Darkover mini-challenge.

So short story long, I've got a lot of irons in the fire so I might not vote since I'm not sure I'll be able to participate. But I would like to participate because I really do like challenges!

[Antti]

I'm all for challenges, but could we choose exclusively from series that include non-nominated works? Those, IMO, are the prime Challenge material. Series that are comprised of 100% nominated works could be nominated as Monthly Reads through some sort of system.

[Antti]

Here's a list of series with at least one non-nominated book:

LONG SERIES

Robot by Isaac Asimov Total pages: 2,945
I, Robot - 224pg
The Caves of Steel - 206pg HNBN
The Naked Sun - 206pg
The Robots of Dawn - 435pg HNBN
Robots and Empire - 512pg

Tales of the Terran Republic by Charles E. Gannon Total pages: 2,940pg
Fire with Fire - 496pg NNBN
Trial by Fire - 640pg NNBN
Raising Caine - 548pg NNBN
Caine's Mutiny - 756pg
Marque of Caine - 500pg NNBN

Alex Benedict by Jack McDevitt Total pages: 2,567
A Talent for War - 310pg
Polaris - 384pg NNBN
Seeker - 373pg NWBN
The Devil's Eye - 368pg
Echo - 371pg NNBN
Firebird - 375 NNBN
Coming Home - 386pg NNBN

The Academy by Jack McDevitt Total pages: 2,351
The Engines of God - 419pg
Deepsix - 502pg
Chindi - 511pg NNBN
Omega - 493pg NNBN
Odyssey - 416pg NNBN

Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons Total pages: 2,267
Hyperion - 482pg HWBN
The Fall of Hyperion - 517pg HNBN NNBN
Endymion - 568pg
The Rise of Endymion - 709pg HNBN

The Queendom of Sol by Wil McCarthy Total pages: 1,580
The Collapsium - 428pg NNBN
The Wellstone - 368pg
Lost in Transmission - 384pg
To Crush the Moon - 400pg NNBN

Foundation by Isaac Asimov Total pages: 1,026+528 pg (I took the prequels away from Art's series list)
Foundation - 244pg
Foundation and Empire - 256pg
Second Foundation - 256pg
Foundation's Edge - 450pg HWBN NNBN
Foundation and Earth - 528pg (does anybody know if this is actually needed, or could we stop at Foundation's Edge?)

Old Man's War by John Scalzi Total pages: 1,349
Old Man's War - 351pg HNBN
The Ghost Brigades - 347pg
The Last Colony - 320pg HNBN
Zoe's Tale - 331pg HNBN


TRILOGIES

Snow Queen Cycle by Joan D. Vinge Total pages: 1,420
The Snow Queen - 448pg HWBN NNBN
World's End - 284pg
The Summer Queen - 688pg HNBN

Inheritance Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin Total pages: 1,418
The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms 421pg HNBN NNBN
The Broken Kingdoms - 384pg
The Kingdom of Gods - 613pg NNBN

Ambergris by Jeff VanderMeer Total pages: 1,388
City of Saints and Madmen - 704pg
Shriek: An Afterword - 352pg
Finch - 332pg NNBN

Grimnoir Chronicles by Larry Correia Total pages: 1,321
Hard Magic - 423pg
Spellbound - 448pg
Warbound - 448pg HNBN

Helliconia by Brian W. Aldiss Total pages: 1104
Helliconia Spring - 400pg NNBN
Helliconia Summer - 400pg
Helliconia Winter - 304pg NNBN

The Book of the Long Sun by Gene Wolfe Total pages: 1,069
Nightside the Long Sun - 333pg NNBN
Lake of the Long Sun - 352pg
Caldé of the Long Sun - 384pg NNBN

Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey Total pages: 1097 (see Allan's note on comment #9)
Dragonflight - 299pg
Dragonquest - 330pg HNBN
The White Dragon - 468pg HNBN

Queen of Angels by Greg Bear Total Pages: 1,019
Queen of Angels - 420pg HNBN
Heads - 151pg
Moving Mars - 448pg HNBN NWBN

Lyonesse by Jack Vance Total pages: 1,040
Suldrun's Garden - 448pg NNBN
The Green Pearl - 406 pg
Madouc - 426 pg

After Such Knowledge by James Blish Total pages: 916 (this isn't a trilogy, but by page count it's not really a "long" series either)
Doctor Mirabilis - 318pg
Black Easter - 170pg NNBN
The Day After Judgment - 172pg
A Case of Conscience - 256pg HWBN

VALIS Trilogy by Philip K. Dick Total pages: 735 (Is this really a trilogy?)
VALIS - 242pg
The Divine Invasion - 238pg
The Transmigration of Timothy Archer - 255pg NNBN

Ridle-Master by Patricia A. McKillip Total pages: 716
The Riddle-Master of Hed - 240pg
Heir of Sea and Fire - 213pg
Harpist in the Wind - 263pg HNBN


DUOLOGIES

The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell Total pages: 882
The Sparrow - 431pg
Children of God - 451pg HNBN

Xenowealth by Tobias S. Buckell Total pages: 668
Crystal Rain - 352pg
Ragamuffin - 316pg NNBN

Vergil Magus by Avram Davidson Total pages: 459
The Phoenix and the Mirror - 275pg
Vergil in Averno - 184pg NNBN

Jupiter Project by Gregory Benford Total pages: 441
Jupiter Project - 195pg
Against Infinity - 246pg NNBN

[Allan]

The Robot series is better served by reading The Complete Robot, which contains I, Robot plus 22 other Robot stories that were published in other books or magazines. I, Robot is not essential to reading the other four.

The Academy series has two additional books not listed, neither nominated.

The Across Realtime duology by Vernon Vinge should be included as both books were nominated.

Darkover is a question mark for me. There are actually 24 books, although Bradley states that her ground rule was that every book should stand alone & be readable without the others. She herself violated these rules in a trilogy written in the 90’s.

I read the first book of the Caine series (Tales of the Terran Republic) and found it to be very James Bond-ish. Not being critical, just trying to characterize it for those that don’t like that sort of thing. Can anyone else comment?

The Pern series: I read a little more about it and found that McCaffrey recommended reading the second trilogy (no nominees) before reading the third book of the first trilogy, as it’s a continuation of the same characters’ adventures. However, the first trilogy would get my vote for s short series. They’re fairly short & could fit nicely.

[Stephen]

Blish’s After Such Knowledge is an unusual “series”. Doctor Mirabilis is a non-genre historical novel about medieval philosopher Roger Bacon. The other three books are science fiction, but Black Easter and The Day After Judgment are closely related short novels that have no obvious connection, in terms of characters and setting, with A Case of Conscience. Blish obviously considered the books to be thematically related. I read them all when I was very young and certainly wouldn’t mind reading them again.

[Rebecca]

Could we add the Terra Ignota quartet - we are reading the first book but I don’t think the others were nominated. Or does that violate our timeframe parameter?

I’d be interested in the Dragonriders as well!

[Allan]

Rebecca wrote: "Could we add the Terra Ignota quartet - we are reading the first book but I don’t think the others were nominated. Or does that violate our timeframe parameter?..."

We definitely should add the series to the list, even though it's just the first book that was nominated. The second book received a Locus SF nomination. Only the fourth book would violate the 5-year time rule, as it was published in 2021.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I vote for reading Hyperion series - I've read it and was quite impressed, esp. with the 1st book, I they are in my re-read list

[Allan]

Oleksandr wrote: "I vote for reading Hyperion series - I've read it and was quite impressed, esp. with the 1st book, I they are in my re-read list"

I'm not averse to this, I've only read the first one and could stand to re-read it.

[Kalin]

I've only read the first too and definitely want to finish the series. So many options!

So far people have highlighted (soft nominated?):

Long
Dragonriders of Pern by Ann McCaffrey
Darkover by Marion Zimmer Bradley
Oxford Time Travel by Connie Willis

Short(er)
Neanderthal Parallax by Robert J. Sawyer
The Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons
Terra Ignota by Ada Palmer

Shall I make a poll? Some of you listed a lot of series but didn't propose anything specific, so maybe think about it and nominate something?

[Kalin]

Rebecca wrote: "Any interest in the Wayward Children series? They are novellas but I’ve just never gotten around to starting them."

I didn't include this on the list of nominees because it's a series of only novellas, so there aren't any books on this group's list.

[Kalin]

Antti wrote: "I'm all for challenges, but could we choose exclusively from series that include non-nominated works? Those, IMO, are the prime Challenge material. Series that are comprised of 100% nominated works..."

I'd personally like to keep the all-nominated series in the running so we can read them together (when will we ever get to Green/Blue Mars, for instance?), but for series with non-nominated works I think those should be included in the challenge.

[Allan]

I think I would group what you've posted differently:

1) Hyperion is a long series, including all 4 Long books
2) I'd limit Pern to the original trilogy, which would place it in Short series
3) Stephen brought up Blish's series, which would fall into Short
4) Darkover I'm not sure what to do with
5) Completing Green/Blue Mars would make a good short challenge

I think we need to decide first if we are doing a short series for 2022 (Dragonriders), or whether we're just going right into a long series (Hyperion). We can vote on both, but we have to decide when we start the longer challenge.

[Stephen]

Allan wrote: "I think I would group what you've posted differently:
….

3) Stephen brought up Blish’s series, which would fall into Short”

Actually the Blish series was mentioned initially by Antti, and I just commented on it.

I do want to read the full Terra Ignota series. Some of the other series listed above also appeal.

[Allan]

I put up a poll to see what direction we want to go with for a new challenge. Basically three choices:

Short for 2022, long for 2023
Long now
Just nominate & vote

Poll is here:
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

[Cordelia]

I'd be interested in reading Hyperian Cantos. I have all of them, but somehow never got around to reading them.

Also Heechee sequence - never read that. ?
Or Xeelee?

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Xeelee is extremely hard to find in ebook. There are still several in the middle that are not converted. At least the last time I looked

[Cordelia]

Kateblue wrote: "Xeelee is extremely hard to find in ebook. There are still several in the middle that are not converted. At least the last time I looked"

You're right, Kate. I looked and there was hardly anything available.

[Kalin]

Xeelee also isn't on the list for this group.

[Allan]

I've done a review of our series guide and made some revisions & clarifications. I opened new topics under Group Info for these, by series length. Where we did not list some books in a series if they were not nominated, the complete series list is now shown, with those formerly excluded books flagged with ** before the title. Two page counts are shown: one for the basic series, another that includes all titles.

As in the original guide, series are divided by length into the following categories:
EPIC: 5000+ pages, 5 series
LONG: 2000-3000 pages, 7 series
MEDIUM-LONG: 1500-2000 pages, 10 series
MEDIUM: 1200-1500 pages, 9 series
MEDIUM-SHORT: 1000-1200 pages, 10 series
SHORT: 700-1000 pages, 13 series
VERY SHORT: up to 700 pages, 12 series

[Allan]

To fill a challenge for 2022, I'd say we pick anything of MEDIUM length or less. So far, we have two nominations that fall under MEDIUM-SHORT:

Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey / Pages: 1,097/1,787
Dragonflight - 299pg
Dragonquest - 330pg HNBN
The White Dragon - 468pg HNBN
** Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern - 286pg HNBN
** All the Weyrs of Pern - 404pg HNBN

Neanderthal Parallax by Robert J. Sawyer / Pages: 1,178
Hominids - 444pg HWBN
Humans - 334pg HNBN
Hybrids - 400pg

Taking nominations for a few others, then I'll set up a poll so we can start in September.

[Kalin]

Thank you for doing all that Allan!

[Allan]

You’re welcome! Just thought it could use a new look & some more clarity.

I left out the nomination of James Blish’s After Such Knowledge series, so we have three nominations. Any others?

[Allan]

Challenge poll is posted here:
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

Here's the detail of the three series:

Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey / Pages: 1,097/1,787
Dragonflight - 299pg
Dragonquest - 330pg HNBN
The White Dragon - 468pg HNBN
** Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern - 286pg HNBN
** All the Weyrs of Pern - 404pg HNBN

Neanderthal Parallax by Robert J. Sawyer / Pages: 1,178
Hominids - 444pg HWBN
Humans - 334pg HNBN
Hybrids - 400pg

After Such Knowledge by James Blish / Pages: 916
Doctor Mirabilis - 318pg
Black Easter - 170pg NNBN
The Day After Judgment - 172pg
A Case of Conscience - 256pg HWBN

[Joe]

Ohhh... I really liked Case of Conscience. :) I definitely read the others... probably not up for another re-read of Pern (though happy to participate in dicussion)

[Joe]

Incidently, the Pern books you picked are pretty random. The original Trilogy makes sense, but Moreta is a Prequel that had little to do with the others, and 'All the Weyrs of Pern', IIRC, is the 10th or 11th book... it does have a big reveal in it that totally changes the things, so it's important (if I'm remembering it correctly) but I don't think it would be great after just the 1st three books.

What WOULD make sense is to ready the Harper Hall trilogy between Dragonquest and White Dragon.. the time period is the same, just focusing on the Harpers, and adds a bunch of info that you miss a bit if you don't read them.

Those are:
Dragonsong (192 pgs)
Dragonsinger (288 pgs)
Dragondrums (243 Pages)

[Allan]

Joe wrote: "Incidently, the Pern books you picked are pretty random. The original Trilogy makes sense, but Moreta is a Prequel that had little to do with the others, and 'All the Weyrs of Pern', IIRC, is the 1..."

This was a difficult hybrid series like Darkover. The entire series is 24 books. I was hesitant to show the whole thing without thinking it through, so I left it as shown in the old list, at least for now.

The two I showed after the original trilogy are not random at all, they are the only other two in the full series that had Hugo nominations, and I did want to show the listed books.

I want to review the order again, but I'll probably edit it to reflect the whole series. If we choose to include the Harper Hall trilogy, it would change the classification, otherwise not.

[Allan]

Dragonriders of Pern is the winner of the Fall Challenge poll. Aa mentioned above, technically this is a long, 24-book series, but there are four (4) books with H/N nominations. We will be reading the original trilogy beginning in September with the first book, Dragonflight.

Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey / Pages: 1,097/1,787
Dragonflight - 299pg (September)
Dragonquest - 330pg HNBN (October)
The White Dragon - 468pg HNBN (November)

[Allan]

McCaffrey suggested reading the full series in the order the books were published, except for one. Below is a list of the first 11, which includes all the nominated books. I'll be modifying how this series is shown in the forum series guide.

Dragonflight - 299pg (original trilogy)
Dragonquest - 330pg HNBN (original trilogy)
Dragonsong - 192pg (Harper Hall trilogy)
Dragonsinger - 288pg (Harper Hall trilogy)
Dragondrums - 243pg (Harper Hall trilogy)
The White Dragon - 468pg HNBN (original trilogy)
Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern - 286pg HNBN
Nerilka's Story - 182pg
Dragonsdawn - 370pg
The Renegades of Pern - 384pg
All the Weyrs of Pern - 404pg HNBN

[Stephen]

This probably doesn’t count, but Dragonflight included two previously published novellas, one of which won a Hugo and the other a Nebula.

[Anthony]

I just want to throw up a little notice for folks that in the first book, there’s a bit of a regressive male-female relationship whose dynamic reads pretty rough by today’s standards.

Still, I’ve enjoyed many aspects of the books in this series that I’ve read. And I look forward to finally getting to The White Dragon.

[Gabi]

I try to stick with this challenge this time. It's one of those often talked about Fantasy series I haven't yet read anything of (my goal is to at least have read the first book of all the "go to" Fantasy series.

[Gabi]

addendum: I've just seen that there is a 2020 audiobook version narrated by Sophie Aldred. That looks like fun! (I love this narrator)

[Joe]

I'll be interested to see what you guys think of that relationship in Dragonflight. I'm not sure I'd call it regressive, there are in story reasons for the way it is.. and the female in the relationship is the main character, so there's that.

I never really saw it as a big deal until the last time I read it last year when we read if for my in person library book club and the younger folks were like 'what the heck..'

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

McCaffrey's suggestion of reading order is all very well, but I am planning on reading:

Dragonflight - 299pg (original trilogy)
Dragonquest - 330pg HNBN (original trilogy)
The White Dragon - 468pg HNBN (original trilogy)
and
All the Weyrs of Pern - 404pg HNBN because I never read it

My favorites actually are the first two of these:
Dragonsong - 192pg (Harper Hall trilogy)
Dragonsinger - 288pg (Harper Hall trilogy)
Dragondrums - 243pg (Harper Hall trilogy)
The third one I do not like nearly as much.
NOTE these three are definitely YA. Very good YA, but still YA

The books in the middle are NOT set in the weyrs, (or if they are, they are in the past or something). I am not really sure, but I feel secure in not reading them, partially because I have started two of them at various times and have quit.

Also, I read Moreta when it was new and was underwhelmed.

[Joe]

I definitely feel like there's a couple on the timeline better the original trilogy and 'All the Weyrs of Pern'... am I wrong?

edit: I went and checked.. I'm decently certain Renegades of Pern' is in the 'current' timeline... maybe like 70%. Been a while though. I didn't realize quite so many were in the past!

I'll be interested to see what you think of All the Weyrs of Pern its... interesting.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I will probably be reading All the Weyrs of Pern in November. I will let everyone know.

There are a couple of short stories set in the current weyr times. I am not sure of the names of where they are published, but I can try to check if anyone is interested