The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Booker Prize for Fiction
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2023 Booker Prize speculation
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Vesna
(last edited May 20, 2023 01:00PM)
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May 20, 2023 01:00PM
I wonder if Labatut supported his claims, apparently nonfictional/factual, with any supporting evidence. For example, in their excellent reviews both GY and RC mention that L. credited von Neumann as a creator of the Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) policy. He has nothing to do with its invention, in fact, he criticized it and advocated the actual use of nuclear weapons which is inconsistent with MAD. Critics of both policies as absurd labeled it as the MAD vs NUTs debate (Nuclear Utilization Theory). Von Neumann belonged to the NUTs group.
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I think its more (at least in my case) me relying too much on the Wikipedia entry for von Neumann which I used both to check if any of the characters or incidents in the book were invented (they were not) and also to help me in some of my reviewThat says for example
Von Neumann is credited with developing the equilibrium strategy of mutual assured destruction (MAD). He also "moved heaven and earth" to bring MAD about
The Book itself makes it clear that his initial view was that Moscow should be bombed to obliteration as soon as possible - but that once it was clear they had bombs also the military and government used his game theory work to develop the MAD concept
WndyJW wrote: "Jo, I’m enjoying The Covenant of Water too. It’s a straightforward story, but an engaging story.I’m eager to read Shy, but I just ordered the new Tan Tang Eng."
It's beautifully written with complex characters. Celeste particularly interests me. I hope it is longlisted so I can discuss it widely.
I’m on chapter 24 page 195. How far are you, Jo? This is making for a nice weekend read. I have a lazy weekend with no plans other than Big Ammachi and Digby whose destinies I assume will meet at some point.Will this be Booker eligible? I could see it being longlisted, but, as GY pointed out on another thread, the competition is steep this year.
WndyJW wrote: "I’m on chapter 23, page 183. How far are you, Jo? This is making for a nice weekend read. I have a lazy weekend with no plans other than Big Ammachi and Digby whose destinies I assume will meet at ..."Just started Chapter 24! I have cleared my schedule for tomorrow and plan to sit outside and disappear into this immersive novel.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "That says for exampleVon Neumann is credited with developing the equilibrium strategy of mutual assured destruction (MAD). He also "moved heaven and earth" to bring MAD about..."
Developing the equilibrium strategy for the game structure as in MAD is not the same as inventing MAD either as a deterrence idea or policy. It sounds Labatut made an erroneous leap.
As for Wikipedia's suggestion about his early advocacy of MAD, I am not familiar with it as other figures were much more prominent and relevant*. If he did, then (a) he was one of many (and should not have been singled out as a leading exponent) and (b) he quickly moved in the opposite direction for which he is much better known.
*ETA: I was referring here to the nuclear strategic doctrine. As for game theory, his relevance in developing it is unquestionable and monumental, along with Morgenstern.
WndyJW wrote: "I’m on chapter 24 page 195. How far are you, Jo? This is making for a nice weekend read. I have a lazy weekend with no plans other than Big Ammachi and Digby whose destinies I assume will meet at s..."Can't see why it wouldnt be eligible. Published on Thursday here in the UK.
Based on Vesna’s erudite comments regarding the equilibrium strategy for game structure and the nuclear strategic doctrine I am sure I’m currently reading a book more my speed for this month. (view spoiler)
WndyJW wrote: "Based on Vesna’s erudite comments regarding the equilibrium strategy for game structure and the nuclear strategic doctrine I am sure I’m currently reading a book more my speed for this month. ..."Haha, nothing erudite, Wendy. Just a small niche that I have read tons of specialized books about. Your and Jo's enthusiastic discussion makes a compelling case for The Covenant of Water.
You have all sold me on Covenant of Water - I bought that Soldier, Sailor In Memoriam and Enter Ghost at the weekend to set me up from mid June although will complete the Orwell Finalists and reread the WP shortlist first (will read The Fraud also).
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "You have all sold me on Covenant of Water - I bought that Soldier, Sailor In Memoriam and Enter Ghost at the weekend to set me up from mid June although will complete the Orwell Finalists and rerea..."I think you will love The Covenant of Water - especially as there is a strong focus on Christianity in India which I found very interesting.
The Fraud is my next read. Very happy to be approved on NetGalley for that one.
Hay Fest in a week. Really looking forward to hearing more from Kevin on Hungry Ghosts!
I just finished Chain-Gang All-Stars. I have such mixed feelings about it. I think the writer is very talented but it’s not a narrative style that really works for me because it never drew me into the story or made me feel connected with or close to any of the characters. I felt dispassionate about it, which does not strike me as what you should feel when reading a story like this. Not sure how to handicap its chances of being longlisted.
I haven't read Chain-Gang All-Stars yet (I will before August), but I have similar thoughts, Cindy. It seems so different from what the Booker usually looks for in terms of style that it's hard to handicap.Not to reopen a discussion that's been had many times before, but this illustrates the difficulty of including US books. CGAS seems written specifically for a US audience - not necessarily in terms of subject matter (which is US-focused, but could be of wider interest), but in terms of a premise and style intended to grab an American audience.
100% agree with you, Cindy! Finished it last week and forgot about it immediately. The characters seemed flat. I skimmed through to the end. It wasn't bad. Hunger Games for adults.
Hay Fest is another reason I should be living in the UK
WndyJW wrote: "Hay Fest is another reason I should be living in the UK"What Wendy said.
I think you will like The Covenant of Water, GY. In defense of the author not growing up in India, he based the character of Big Ammachi, one of the protagonists, on his grandmother. I don’t have a problem with authors who set stories in the countries where their parents and grandparents were born and grew up. I’m sure like Violet Kupersmith, Verghese grew up hearing stories of life in his parent’s homeland.I would defend this straightforward novel that doesn’t challenge the reader or the form the same way two readers described a book of short stories in the VOW longlist: sometimes it nice to read a book that allows the imagination to relax and enjoy the stories, the language is simple enough that we turn the pages quickly, but the characters and their stories leave a mark.
You are both suffering from Hay Fever
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "You are both suffering from Hay Fever"Another painful pun. And also rubbing salt in our wounds, because you would have a significantly easier time going to Hay than we would.
It sounds like The Covenant of Water is hitting some good notes - highly regarded by Joy, Jo, Wendy, and others.I don't have a problem with writers setting books in a country they aren't from either. Although I do worry about a crowding-out effect where US publishers only publish American works set in a particular country while books written by authors native to that country struggle to find an international publisher.
This just seems like a case in point where in 2022 we had an acclaimed work of Malayalam fiction (a pro-Christian multi-generation epic, in fact) translated into English but, to my knowledge, failing to find a publisher outside India.
But again, this is more of a concern about the publishing industry rather than a comment about The Covenant of Water or any book in particular.
I agree with you David, and it’s sad that our friends in India have a struggle to get the books published in the West. It seems the global economy hasn’t reached the publishing world yet.To those reading TCoW let me know when you reach page 398. I’m reading through tears!
WndyJW wrote: "I agree with you David, and it’s sad that our friends in India have a struggle to get the books published in the West. It seems the global economy hasn’t reached the publishing world yet.To those..."
Don't say that! On p368 now and things are going so well... Going to be a late night!
I finished it. I liked it, but I ended with a 3 star rating, which means I thought it was good and I would recommend it, but it wasn’t exceptional.Verghese could have eliminated one storyline and even ended it sooner without hurting the main story and I think the novel would have been better for it, but again I did like it and I’m glad I read it.
Cindy wrote: "I just finished Chain-Gang All-Stars. I have such mixed feelings about it. I think the writer is very talented but it’s not a narrative style that really works for me because it never drew me into ..."thank you! I gave up half-way through. You described why perfectly.
WndyJW wrote: "I finished it. I liked it, but I ended with a 3 star rating, which means I thought it was good and I would recommend it, but it wasn’t exceptional.Verghese could have eliminated one storyline and ..."
Just finished it! I did like it. The writing was very good and I am happy I persevered as the ending tied everything together very satisfactorily. But I couldnt agree more with you Wendy. It should have been scaled right back. Or even better, been two novels. Overall 4*. I liked the medical and religious threads.
The Fraud next...
House of Doors by Tan Twan Eng is being serialised on BBC radio starting tonight.
I don’t think I spotted this before but there have been two small changes to the Booker rules. Entry quotas are now capped at 3 - this impacts Faber, Jonathan Cape and Chatto and Windus who all lose an entry which in my calls takes PRH down from 30 to 28 entries (excluding previous shortlistees and call ins).
Call in nominations - previously judges had to call in between 8 and and 12 call-in nominated books. Now it’s at least 10.
I don't understand that second point. Judges have to call in books? And what is a call-in nominated book?
Outside of their standard suits of entries (1-3 depending on recent shortlist success plus any books by authors that have ever been nominated) all of which go straight to judges to read … publishers can suggest up to 5 books for the judges to consider for entry. For those they provide a first chapter plus letter explaining why the book should be considered.
The judges then call-in some of those books (normally around 10 but now at least 10).
Okay, interesting. I didn't realize calling in was an obligation, I had assumed it just happened if a judge was passionate about a book or an author.Can a judge call in a book that hasn't been recommended by the publisher?
Yes they can I am not sure how often that happens.
Your review of A History of Burning, GY, is interesting. It sounds like the book is a mixture of untranslated Swahili and Gujarati, as well as English. Is that just in dialogue or narrative as well?I would love to see more books blur the boundaries between languages. (Ret Samadhi famously did this, before it became Tomb of Sand.)
No it’s very much an English language book but with Gujarati or Swahili nouns sprinkled in I think that is pretty common (almost a genre convention in this type of book).
It sounds like a real missed opportunity. A trilingual novel set among the diasporic community would be fascinating.
Just finished The Covenant of Water by Abraham Verghese. Absolutely remarkable work! Dr Verghese taught at the medical school my husband attended. His storytelling is griping and memorable. Highly recommend.
I was lucky enough today to listen to and briefly meet Kevin Jared Hosein who wrote Hungry Ghosts. Rosie Goldsmith who interviewed him also shared her view that he would win prizes and even mentioned The Booker with his debut. I want to read it again now...
David wrote: "I would love to see more books blur the boundaries between languages."It seems Gina Apostol's doing that in La Tercera, judging by some reviews. I'm a bit reluctant to begin it because of that though I mightily admire her other works.
endrju wrote: "It seems Gina Apostol's doing that in La Tercera, judging by some reviews. I'm a bit reluctant to begin it because of that though I mightily admire her other works."Those one- and two-star Goodreads reviews are interesting. Great review in the NY Times, though: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/30/bo...
That’s very cool, Jo! I loved Hungry Ghosts and expect to see it on Prize lists too.
Going to put The Fraud out there. Automatic entry as a past shortlister. Also the 20th and 10th anniversary date f Smith’s two Granta listings. Parts of it made me think of Washington Black and other people reference Bridgerton (I have never seen that) - and then you look at the judging panel and think hmmmm
James Shapiro’s views on the light fictionalisation of famous writers (given his recent comments) will be interesting.
Maybe this is why the shortlist was pushed back 2 weeks as this is only published on 7 September
(almost certainly this is not why it was pushed back but it’s fun to speculate)
I would be very surprised though if it’s not on the WP list next year - parts of it are about the egotism of male writers and their condescending views on women and women writers.
Interesting. I have found all the fiction she has written since White Teeth very disappointing - she seems a better commentator and essayist than a novelist or story writer. But is this a return to form?
That’s exactly what I say in my review (which is in turn Lifted from my review of Swing Time). Not entirely no in terms of return to form.
I more hope she makes shortlist panels to read from and discuss the book and other books
About to post my review.
I also prefer Zadie Smith in non-fiction mode - I like Fraud but it is slow in places and as much as I like what it's doing, I would have preferred it done in a snappier manner.
It kind of is snappy but also long Not many books have 165 chapters!
I hope each of those chapter is at most a page in length or is sounds like a NotsafeforPaul book.
Very keen to read The Fraud, I must say. I have not loved her fiction since On Beauty, which is my personal favorite of her novels, but do love her nonfiction writing. The Fraud sounds very different from her more recent novels, but I'm not sure it sounds Booker-ish.
I tend to agree but not sure with this judging panel
Paul wrote: "Interesting. I have found all the fiction she has written since White Teeth very disappointing - she seems a better commentator and essayist than a novelist or story writer. But is this a return to..."Not entirely, at least not so far, I've only read the first two chapters.
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The Mookse and the Gripes
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