The Vicar of Bullhampton: Week 3 - Ch. 17-26

[Cindy, Moderator]

Sorry I’m late posting today–the celebrations for the various fathers in my life have been going on all weekend, so I’m a bit behind. There was a lot of action in this week’s chapters, so let’s get to it!


Summary:

We start off by meeting the oft-mentioned Marquis of Trowbridge. He thoroughly dislikes both the Vicar and Mr. Gilmore. He stigmatizes the Vicar as a disrespectful, impudent infidel, and Mr. Gilmore as a rebellious upstart. The Marquis is firmly convinced of Sam’s guilt, and his verdict seems to rest mostly on Sam’s family situation. Even though there is no real evidence to hold Sam for the crime, the Marquis believes in the boy’s guilt so strongly that he troubles himself to intervene directly. He arranges a meeting with Harry Gilmore to attempt to influence his vote as a magistrate to keep Sam imprisoned. The Marquis is annoyed when Mr. Fenwick shows up and challenges his august opinions. When Mr. Fenwick compares the miller turning Sam away without evidence of wrongdoing to the Marquis doing the same to his daughters, the Marquis is shocked and livid. How dare this insolent parson mention his daughters? This heinous crime by the Vicar occupies the Marquis for the rest of the chapters. The final straw is when the Vicar proposes equality to the Marquis: “If you desire that your family concerns should be treated with reserve and reticence, you had better learn to treat the family affairs of others in the same way” (139). This made me laugh–the very idea that the Marquis would expect or desire there to be anything equal in interchanges between himself and others! I’m not sure he is even able to comprehend what the Vicar is saying. The description of the daughters as “august persons” but in the next breath “old and ugly, it is true,” I had to laugh again.

As predicted, Sam is released and returns to work at the mill. His behavior is above reproach for almost two weeks, at which time he disappears. The Vicar believes he knows where Sam has gone, and sets off for Pycroft Common. When he finds the cottage of Mrs. Burrows, the mother of the Grinder, we find that the young woman living with her, presented previously as the Grinder’s wife, is none other than Carry Brattle. Her beauty is faded, worn down from hard living even at her young age, but the echo of it is still there. She is unmarried and considers herself unfit to meet or even speak to respectable people. Sam had been there, but thinking that the Vicar’s knock heralded the police, had fled out the back door. The Vicar assures Carry that he is working to help her and begs her not to do anything drastic. On his way home, he catches up with Sam, who refuses a ride but asserts that he is on his way home to the mill.

The Marquis of Trowbridge is still stewing over the unbelievable nerve of the Vicar and consults his son, who holds a seat in the Houe of Commons, about writing to the bishop about his grievance. The son seems to have a little more realistic opinion about the center of the universe in relation to his father’s position (spoiler alert: the Marquis isn’t it!) and advises him to let it go. The center of the universe finds himself unable to do so and writes the letter to the bishop, hopeful that the Vicar’s crime in offending someone so splendid as himself will at least result in being fired, if not drawn and quartered. (Ah! The good old days!) The bishop, also a man of sense, apparently, forwards the letter itself to the Vicar and mildly advises him to make his life easier by a healthy dose of tact when dealing with powerful personages. The Vicar gets a laugh out of it but promises to be good in the future. The chapter ends with he and his wife puzzling over how to reconcile Carry Brattle with her family.

Meanwhile, most of this week’s chapters are dominated by Mary, her engagement, and the various reactions to it. In Chapter 17, Walter and Mary are still telling themselves that they are just feeling cousinly about each other. Walter goes to London and returns with the news that it is likely he will recover 4,000 pounds from his disgraceful father. He reveals his love to Mary, who suddenly realizes she is also in love and accepts him. They acknowledge that they will be poor but dismiss this as unimportant to their happiness.

Mary breaks the news first to her Aunt Sarah, then writes letters to Janet Fenwick and to Mr. Gilmore. None of these recipients of the glad tidings is glad at all. Aunt Sarah and Janet express their love and their desire for her happiness but are unable to disguise that they don’t think this is the way to achieve it. Aunt Sarah consults with Parson John in hopes of having found an ally to undo this ruinous engagement, but Parson John is not particularly interested in helping her. His predictions for the couple are actually more disturbing for Aunt Sarah, as he believes that Mary will ultimately be jilted by Walter. Aunt Sarah has never suspected Walter of such shabby behavior and is now worried about Mary’s emotional destruction should this happen. Parson John unconcernedly believes that Walter will, like most other men, have his “bit of fun” with no harm done (except to the lady, of course). Pastor John strikes me as sort of a creep in this part–he seems to say what will most rile up the person is talking to, always focusing on the negative with no suggestion of any positive way to approach anything. He seems to take pleasure in bursting their bubbles and destroying their hopes. Does it seem that way to anyone else?

Mr. Gilmore is shattered by the news and weeps and wonders morbidly why he should continue living. He thinks longingly of confronting Walter with a bullwhip, but regretfully realizes that a physical confrontation will gain him nothing. While struggling to deal with his broken heart and the death of his dreams, his uncle, Mr. Chamberlaine, arrives for a visit. He is pleased that Mary rejected Mr. Gilmore, feeling that she is not a worthy candidate for the position of the Squire's wife. Mr. Gilmore takes umbrage to this. We are still somewhat mystified about the reason for Mr. Chamberlaine's visit.

So what did you think about this week's chapters? I really am enjoying Trollope's style and the pace of the story. So many lines made me smile this week! I think I will add a post for favorite quotes.

[Cindy, Moderator]

New Characters:

This week we finally get to meet some characters whose names have been introduced and who have been dancing around the periphery of our story, but are finally pulled onto the stage with the others.

The Marquis of Trowbridge – His name is mentioned early in the book, but I was only partially prepared for the grandiosity of this nobleman when he finally burst upon the scene! He is close to seventy years of age, but with the appearance and fitness of one younger than that. He is short and plump, with short gray hair and very little facial hair. Both inside and out, he exuded the gravity of a lifetime of bearing the weight of his title and the awesomeness that he necessarily possessed in order to have it. He is also (in case you missed it in subsequent chapters) a “silly, weak, ignorant man, whose own capacity would hardly have procured bread for him in any trade or profession” (134).


Mr. Puddleham – He is the Methodist minister and second choice for the honor of intimacy with the Marquis’s family as a religious representative. He won this role by dint of his skill as a toadeater, something the Vicar despises. It is from Mr. Puddleham that the family learns “parish facts and parish fables,” so he’s a gossip. (132.

The Reverend Henry Fitzackerly Chamberlaine – He is the parson of a living in Cambridgesire which he has never visited. It is presumably being serviced by his prelate. He refuses to be ousted from his position just because he doesn’t actually do the work. He is fifty-five, unmarried, possessed of a comfortable fortune, and much addicted to his personal fashions and comforts. He’s very handsome and apparently is quite a chick-magnet, for even the married women in the church succumb to his beauty, his white hands, and his sonorous voice. He’s very selective with his foods, wines, and surroundings.


Carry Brattle – As noted before, she was a beauty before her troubles began, and her hard life since has taken its toll on her. She is poor and sickly-looking, too thin, and her eyes hollow. Her face will still pale and gentle, though, with a gleam of light in her eyes. She regards herself as being beyond the reach of decent people and thinks often of suicide.

[Cindy, Moderator]

Class – Class plays a HUGE part in this week’s chapters. We see the Marquis embodying the arrogance of the nobility, sincerely believing that his word should be law, his opinions the only ones that matter. He tries to use his position to squash the Vicar like a bug (which is rather how he sees him)! He is livid with rage that Mr. Fenwick not only had the gall to mention his daughters, but that he talked of them “as though they were mere ordinary human beings” (139). He sincerely believes that he and his family are superior creatures, above the rest of the mere mortals.

His (old and ugly) daughters echo his behavior, turning their noses up at Mrs. Fenwick because of her lack of a title, unaware that her lineage is actually older and more illustrious than their own. Sam’s vulnerability because of his class is emphasized. Who knows where he would be without his champion, the Vicar? All and sundry, but especially those in power, are ready to convict him just for being the shady son of a disgraced tenant farmer and the brother of a prostitute.

Mary’s choice of husband, although of good family and possessed of a respected position in the army, is condemned as inferior because he lacks the status of the Squire. I read in an article that Trollope presents the Vicar acting as if he is a powerful man and gaining power through his confidence in his positions, but the larger picture is that “the Vicar is relatively powerless against many forces and people in his community.” Do you agree with this? If so, how much do you attribute to the class system prevailing in England and how much to the natural ways of the world?

[Cindy, Moderator]

Marriage: Practicality vs. the Heart

Now that Mary has engaged herself to the Captain, what do you think of her choice? She is blithely embracing her poverty today, viewing it through the rose-tinted spectacles of initial love, but do you think that will last? What are your predictions for her future happiness? What do you think of her family and friends’ reactions to the news?

[Cindy, Moderator]

Religion

We now have four different men of God represented in this story. What do you think about the different ways these spiritual leaders are portrayed? Frank Fenwick fights for his causes and stands up to authority, but is also admittedly too pugnacious at times. He even advises the Squire to reinstate hunting pheasants, a practice he discarded to avoid friction with the Marquis. He phrases it as retaliation for the tense meeting regarding Sam’s release. Captain Marrable’s uncle, Parson John, disapproves of his nephew’s engagement to Mary, but refuses to persuade him to end it, seeing it as an enjoyable dalliance for his nephew and unconcerned about the effect on Mary if she is discarded when Walter realizes the improvidence of the marriage. Mr. Gilmore’s uncle, Mr. Chamberlaine, is indolent and apparently doesn’t bestir himself to help anyone, keeping the living in Cambridgeshire without actually ever going there. He is living a completely hedonistic life while presenting himself as a spiritual leader. Mr. Puddleham is a gossip who spends his time sucking up to those in power. Is the Vicar the titular character of the book due to the differences between himself and the other religious leaders in the book?

[Paul]

Cindy wrote: "Religion

We now have four different men of God represented in this story. What do you think about the different ways these spiritual leaders are portrayed? Frank Fenwick fights for his causes and ..."

Based on these brief summaries, it would certainly seem that Trollope doesn't hold religion or its representatives in the persons of clergymen in particularly high regard (and, FWIW, I concur 100%).

[Paul]

In Chapter XVIII, after Walter’s abrupt declaration of his love for her, Mary thought: “She was without a doubt. The man was her master, and had her in his keeping and, of course, she would obey him.” For someone who clearly felt capable of flouting Victorian traditions of marriage and exerting a non-traditional female role of selecting her life partner on the basis of love rather than economic considerations or traditional societal values, I thought this was an outrageously incongruous thought. My personal reaction was to drop my erstwhile admiration of Mary’s stout modernity and feminism several notches. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that I began to doubt whether Mary knew her own mind at all. Perhaps Aunt Sarah knew Mary better than Mary knew herself and her admonitions against falling in love with Walter were not ill-advised or unreasonable at all. Anyone else?

[Pamela]

Cindy wrote: "Religion

We now have four different men of God represented in this story. What do you think about the different ways these spiritual leaders are portrayed? ..."

Trollope is highlighting all the different ways that these clergymen fall short of the ideal of the Christian leader. I found Parson John rather irritating as his approach seems to be total avoidance of making any moral decision or taking a stand - we already know that he has accepted his brother cheating Walter out of his money, and he’s not that worries about whether Walter marries Marynor not, as long as he doesn’t have to get involved.

I guess the characters of Puddleham (sycophantic Low Church figure) and Chamberlaine (self indulgent and lazy) are ones we often encounter in Victorian literature. Trollope is exaggerating their defects in a comical way, but at the same time making their weaknesses clear. I did like the way Frank reminded Puddleham of his Christian duty!

[Pamela]

Paul wrote: "My personal reaction was to drop my erstwhile admiration of Mary’s stout modernity and feminism several notches. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that I began to doubt whether Mary knew her own mind at all. Perhaps Aunt Sarah knew Mary better than Mary knew herself and her admonitions against falling in love with Walter were not ill-advised or unreasonable at all.”

I think Aunt Sarah could see the risk in Mary becoming close to Walter, but even she was surprised at how quickly and how far Mary had fallen in love. She certainly didn’t expect them to get engaged. “She was astonished at Mary’s weakness, and was indignant with Walter Marrable”

I’m not sure we can expect too much of what we would consider modernity or feminism from Mary. Her independence lies in her refusal to simply make a good marriage to someone she doesn’t love. It will be all or nothing. That in itself is quite a stand. But she’s still a middle class Victorian lady, and her view of marriage will be a traditional one where she is willingly responsive to her husband’s wishes, once she has chosen to marry.

[Paul]

Pamela wrote: " Her independence lies in her refusal to simply make a good marriage to someone she doesn’t love. It will be all or nothing. That in itself is quite a stand. But she’s still a middle class Victorian lady, and her view of marriage will be a traditional one where she is willingly responsive to her husband’s wishes, once she has chosen to marry. "

A good solid explanation of the apparent contradiction.

[sabagrey]

I particulalrly enjoyed the masterful description of Chamberlain:

"It is often very curious to trace the sources of greatness. With Mr. Chamberlaine, I think it came from the whiteness of his hands, and from a certain knack he had of looking as though he could say a great deal, though it suited him better to be silent, and say nothing. Of outside deportment, no doubt, he was a master."

I was forcefully reminded of a certain ex-politician of my country. Ah, don't we all know such great men?

[Paul]

Cindy wrote: "Pastor John strikes me as sort of a creep in this part–he seems to say what will most rile up the person is talking to, always focusing on the negative with no suggestion of any positive way to approach anything. He seems to take pleasure in bursting their bubbles and destroying their hopes. Does it seem that way to anyone else?"

Frankly, I didn't get the impression that he was taking pleasure in bursting anyone's bubble. My impression was that his misogyny was so deeply entrenched and so bred in the bone that being an unthinking cad was the only mode of behaviour in which he conducted himself to women.

Towards Mary, well, it struck him as totally natural that Walter would be expected to love her and leave her. In his mind, any subsequent problems were attributable to Mary's failure to understand that Walter was simply acting the way that men act all the time.

Towards Sarah, his version of polite was to actually receive her. But to give her opinions or her requests any credence, ... not a chance. He spoke down to her and was condescending in the extreme! Not maliciously or with pleasure but just because he knew no other way.

[Cindy, Moderator]

I had to look up the allusion to Damon and Pythagoras, and this is what I learned from Wikipedia. I particularly loved the last line, especially applying it to the Bullhampton scenario! I think it would turn out the same way there! :)

Damon and Pythagoras

As told by Aristoxenus, and after him Cicero (De Offic. 3.45), Diodorus Siculus (10.4), and others, Pythias and his friend Damon, both followers of the philosopher Pythagoras, traveled to Syracuse during the reign of the tyrannical Dionysius I (r. 405–367 BC). Pythias was accused of plotting against the tyrant and sentenced to death.

Accepting his sentence, Pythias asked to be allowed to return home one last time to settle his affairs and bid his family farewell. Not wanting to be taken for a fool, the king refused, believing that, once released, Pythias would flee and never return. Damon offered himself as a hostage in Pythias' absence, and when the king insisted that, should Pythias not return by an appointed time, Damon would be executed in his stead, Damon agreed and Pythias was released.

Dionysius was convinced that Pythias would never return, and as the day Pythias promised to return came and went, he called for Damon's execution—but just as the executioner was about to kill Damon, Pythias returned.

Apologizing to his friend for the delay, Pythias explained that on the passage back to Syracuse, pirates had captured his ship and thrown him overboard, but that he swam to shore and made his way back to Syracuse as quickly as possible, arriving just in time to save his friend.

So astonished by and pleased with their friendship, Dionysius pardoned both men. It was also said that the tyrant then sought to become their third friend, but was denied.

[Cindy, Moderator]

Paul wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Religion

Based on these brief summaries, it would certainly seem that Trollope doesn't hold religion or its representatives in the persons of clergymen in particularly high regard (and, FWIW, I concur 100%)...."

I agree! I think it is interesting because I believe someone (Renee?) posted previously that Trollope usually presented church leaders in a more positive light. Something I will pay attention to as I continue to make my way through his catalog of work.

[Cindy, Moderator]

Paul wrote: "In Chapter XVIII, after Walter’s abrupt declaration of his love for her, Mary thought: “She was without a doubt. The man was her master, and had her in his keeping and, of course, she would obey him.”..."

Pamela wrote: "But she’s still a middle class Victorian lady, and her view of marriage will be a traditional one where she is willingly responsive to her husband’s wishes, once she has chosen to marry...."

Paul, I was much struck with that line, as well, and marked it in my book. It certainly is an attention-getter after her show of independence! But what Pamela pointed out is true, I believe. Mary never expressed a desire for a progressive-type marriage. She intends to be a conventional wife, but just wants to decide for whom. The title of the chapter is a give-away to her mindset: "I Have a Jupiter of My Own Now." She always expected her husband to be the planet around which her entire life would orbit--she just wanted to choose the planet for herself. Now that she has, she is happy to sublimate herself in pleasing him.

[Paul]

Cindy wrote: "Paul wrote: "The title of the chapter is a give-away to her mindset: "I Have a Jupiter of My Own Now." She always expected her husband to be the planet around which her entire life would orbit--she just wanted to choose the planet for herself. Now that she has, she is happy to sublimate herself in pleasing him."

An excellent interpretation of the chapter title that didn't occur to me. Thanks for pointing it out! Maybe I should modify my characterization of Mary to "partially Modern Millie, kinda!"

[Diane]

Cindy wrote: "Marriage: Practicality vs. the Heart

Now that Mary has engaged herself to the Captain, what do you think of her choice? She is blithely embracing her poverty today, viewing it through the rose-tin..."
I am very sorry for Mary’s choice. I sort of feel that she falls in love with the first man to show her attention in order to get out of the necessity of writing that letter of clear refusal (no more waiting periods) to the Squire. I don’t think Walter is capable of the deep love that the Squire feels for Mary. Mary’s fantasy about the nature of true love, using Janet Fenwick’s marriage as her ideal, fails to take account of the facts that Frank Fenwick is a very different man from Walter Marrable and that it takes two people to make a long and happy marriage. I’m afraid that Mary will marry Walter, which will lead her eventually to great suffering, not because of poverty, but because of Walter’s selfish and shallow character.

[Cindy, Moderator]

Paul wrote: "Frankly, I didn't get the impression that he was taking pleasure in bursting anyone's bubble. My impression was that his misogyny was so deeply entrenched and so bred in the bone that being an unthinking cad was the only mode of behaviour in which he conducted himself to women...."

Looking back at it, I think you're right. He doesn't have malice toward Aunt Sarah, Mary, or Walter. I guess it is his disengagement in the effects of what he says to them that I so much dislike. He's unconcerned that his words have clearly exacerbated the entire situation for Aunt Sarah, already upset to begin with, and regards dispassionately Mary's future after being "loved and left" by Walter. Although he disapproves of the marriage and feels it is not in Walter's best interest, he expresses it by shooting down every idea his nephew proffers, I guess completely unaware that he is only setting up Walter's back and making him dig in his heels. I believe that calling off an engagement at that time was a serious offense for either party. So basically his advice to just dump Mary was not something an honourable man would have even considered, rendering his whole perspective useless.

I guess it is just that he so clearly doesn't care about any of it that bugged me!

[Cindy, Moderator]

I just realized that in addition to being old and ugly, the Marquis's daughters' family name is Stowte! Does anyone know the correct pronunciation of this name? I'm SO hoping it is "stout" because that would be perfection! If it is "stoat" that is not terrible because it is a small weasel. I can live with that! :)

[Paul]

In Chapter XXIV, the Rev Chamberlaine pontificated on Gilmore's possible marriage with Mary Lowther, "I can assure you, ... that the idea made me quite uncomfortable. I set some inquiries on foot, and she was not the sort of girl that you should marry." I understand that Chamberlaine was Gilmore's uncle but by what right would he have presumed to intrude to THAT extent on Gilmore's affairs other than a pompous sense of self-importance and outright nosiness?? That said, it also occurs to me to ask what he might have found that would lead him to suggest that she was "not the sort of girl" that Gilmour should marry.

[Michaela]

At first, thanks for your funny summaries Cindy! I think they´re funnier than the book itself, though I in the meantime think it´s a kind of satire.
Mary so far seems in the focus of the story, but through the Vicar´s difficulties with the Marquis we´ll hear more about him. I like the Bishop´s answer, as he doesn´t let himself get blackmailed through the Marquis´ complaint.
Mary is rather naive regarding men, and I can hardly imagine that she and Walter would make a good couple.

[Frances]

Cindy wrote: "I think it is interesting because I believe someone (Renee?) posted previously that Trollope usually presented church leaders in a more positive light. Something I will pay attention to as I continue to make my way through his catalog of work.."

One of the things I admire about Trollope is that he doesn't stereotype, so there are good and bad parsons, good and bad Doctors, good and bad Aristocrats and Squires etc. Certainly in his Chronicles of Barsetshire there are both admirable and despicable clergymen!

[Frances]

Paul wrote: "In Chapter XXIV, the Rev Chamberlaine pontificated on Gilmore's possible marriage with Mary Lowther, "I can assure you, ... that the idea made me quite uncomfortable. I set some inquiries on foot, ..."

Yes this surprised me as well-perhaps he feels that money should marry money, which is the only basis I can imagine on which he could make this statement.

[Frances]

I was quite dazzled by Trollope's portrayal of male grief in Gilmore's reaction to the loss of Mary. This isn't the first time in my reading of Trollope that he has shown men completely devastated in this way-sometimes it is done to mildly comical effect, but in this case it was quite moving. (He also shows women grieving over lost love, but that is seen as more typical and expected.) I wonder how this would have been received by his Victorian readers-would they view Gilmore as weak, or sympathize?

[Paul]

Frances wrote: " he has shown men completely devastated in this way-sometimes it is done to mildly comical effect, but in this case it was quite moving."

I was affected by this passage as well. Trollope portrayed Gilmore's grief as so total and so overwhelming, I was led to wonder how Gilmore could continue to function at all.

[Ginny]

Paul wrote: "In Chapter XXIV, the Rev Chamberlaine pontificated on Gilmore's possible marriage with Mary Lowther, "I can assure you, ... that the idea made me quite uncomfortable. I set some inquiries on foot, ..."

A great question. Did he really make "inquiries"? What could he have turned up? But he disliked Mary the first time he met her. "An easy temper and a little money are almost as common in our rank of life as destitution and obstinacy.” She is poor and obstinate. Probably enough in itself.

[Ginny]

Cindy wrote: " When Mr. Fenwick compares the miller turning Sam away without evidence of wrongdoing to the Marquis doing the same to his daughters, the Marquis is shocked and livid. How dare this insolent parson mention his daughters? ..."

The Brattle family (lower class) dignity is compared to the Marquis' family (upper class), but more importantly, this compares his daughters to a family where a daughter has been prostituted. Here, all the prominent men talk about it.

How dare you mention my daughters?

[Cindy, Moderator]

Frances wrote: "Paul wrote: "In Chapter XXIV, the Rev Chamberlaine pontificated on Gilmore's possible marriage with Mary Lowther, "I can assure you, ... that the idea made me quite uncomfortable. I set some inquir..."

That's what I thought of, too. Mr. Chamberlaine is so materialistic that I can see him disparaging a match with a girl who has no money and no beneficial connections despite the fact that Mr. Gilmore can comfortably support her. He would definitely consider his nephew's feelings of secondary importance.

[Paul]

Ginny wrote: "How dare you mention my daughters?"

I'm assuming that the Marquis is the gentleman seated and Vicar Fenwick is the one standing in front of him in the most obviously adversarial posture. But who do you think the other three men are? I don't recall feeling that there were other men in the story when Fenwick and the Marquis were having their discussion!

[Cindy, Moderator]

Ginny wrote: "The Brattle family (lower class) dignity is compared to the Marquis' family (upper class), but more importantly, this compares his daughters to a family where a daughter has been prostituted. Here, all the prominent men talk about it.
..."

The Marquis has, so far, been a constant source of delight to me. His presence in these chapters made me laugh multiple times. He is the personification of upper-class arrogance and entitlement, but in such a humorous way!

[Cindy, Moderator]

Paul wrote: "Ginny wrote: "How dare you mention my daughters?"

I'm assuming that the Marquis is the gentleman seated and Vicar Fenwick is the one standing in front of him in the most obviously adversarial post..."

Mr. Gilmore is present, as well, because the Marquis succeeds in offending him too. Mr. Puddleham is there as attendant sycophant to the Marquis. I'm not sure who the fifth gentleman is.

[Paul]

Cindy wrote: "I'm not sure who the fifth gentleman is. "

Jacob Brattle perhaps?? The discussion, after all, was revolving around the presumption of Sam's guilt for the murder.

[Daniela]

Like Frances, I was very impressed by the description of Mr. Gilmore's pain, I found it very current and modern.

"... tumbled and tossed and fretted through the miserable night. And the next morning was as bad."

And he is hoping behind all hopes and he sticks to every word of Mrs. Fenwick expecting from her not comfort but hope.

"You think, then," he said, "that there is no chance?"

Mary's request that they remain friends also impressed me.

"Was there ever such cold-blooded trash? Friends indeed! What sort of friendship could there be between two persons, one of whom had made the other so wretched, -so dead as was was he at present!"

Who among us hasn't thought about this at least once?

[Pamela]

Cindy wrote: "I’m not sure who the fifth gentleman is.."

The fifth attendee is Packer, described as “a sub-agent, one of the Marquis’s people, with whom Mr Gilmore was very well acquainted.” Packer is said to be standing at the meeting, so I’m guessing he’s the man behind Lord Trowbridge.

[Daniela]

I wondered who the fifth man could be, now I agree he could be Packer.
I had not understood that the woman who was living with Mrs. Burrows was Carry, did we have clues about it?

[Trev]

So Frank ‘“How you do like a fight, Frank!” Fenwick has been putting himself about again, wading into other people’s conversations/decisions and not caring what size toes he treads on. From now on I think I will call him ‘Fighting Frank.’ He reminds me of the fifties vicar in the British TV drama ‘Grantchester’ who helps the police solve crimes, antagonising those who abuse their power and even punching his friends if he thinks they deserve it. Unlike Fighting Frank, the vicar in Grantchester is regularly put on a final warning by the bishop, only to be miraculously saved from the sack by the way he solves the crimes. Fighting Frank’s huge heart is not matched by his head so thank goodness his wife/friends can come to the rescue there. He has to be admired for his actions but is he heading for trouble? Trollope seems to have deliberately introduced other clergy in these chapters as comparisons with Frank and only the bishop can be said to have compared favourably.

Cousin Walter must be something special to completely overwhelm Mary so quickly after years of feeling nothing for anybody. Everyone saw the engagement coming except Mary’s conscious self. Without going into a debate about love at first sight, I did wonder if Walter was a rebound lover to rescue her from Squire Gilmore. There is also a difference between love and infatuation (I am thinking of Natasha Rostova and Prince Anatole Kuragin from War and Peace .) However, Walter’s intentions do seem honourable and his wish to get married quickly despite having a pittance to live on can only be in his favour. I was surprised at Fighting Frank’s reaction to Mary’s letter after he had given her such a hard time on rejecting his friend. There was no fight there from the pugilist, he just accepted Mary’s swift engagement as a fait accompli despite knowing nothing at all about Walter. I am beginning to wonder if Fighting Frank is the author’s mouthpiece in this story.

I was also moved by the chapter describing Squire Gilmore’s devastation. This was Trollope at his best, getting to the heart of the squire’s misery. Anyone who has been in that situation will recognise and empathise fully with the squire’s predicament. I can think of a number of other rejected lovers in Trollope novels, but this description of heartache is perhaps the best.

The fact that Carry is found at Mrs. Burrows and has been mixed up with the Grinder in some way sounds ominous to me. Carry was being very evasive about her current situation when being questioned by Frank and she did disappoint him considerably when she admitted she wasn’t married. I am now thinking that Sam is keeping quiet about the robbers to protect his sister or that the robbers might be using his sister as a threat, but I could be wrong.

[Rosemarie]

It's a good thing that the Fenwicks get along so well with each other, since Frank is such a hot-head at times that he needs a calming influence-his wife.

I can't see Mary and the Captain's married life to be as sane and healthy as the Fenwicks. I hopt there's a long engagement, but I somehow doubt it.

[sabagrey]

Trev wrote: "So Frank ‘“How you do like a fight, Frank!” Fenwick has been putting himself about again, wading into other people’s conversations/decisions and not caring what size toes he treads on. From now on ..."

I love your name for him - "Fighting Frank". From the very first chapters, he reminded me of another fictional clergyman, of another country, another time: Guareschi's Don Camillo Comrade Don Camillo - a famous fighter, too (only more humorous).

[Paul]

sabagrey wrote: "Fighting Frank"

Call him "Fightin' Frank Fenwick, the Raging Bull of Bullhampton"!

[Paul]

Since we've now met Carry Brattle and heard her talk a little bit with the Vicar, I'm wondering whether she actually was a prostitute in the modern sense or whether it was Victorian morals who labeled her as such simply because she chose to live (and presumably have relations) with a man who kept her fed and housed without benefit of the blessings of church and marriage??

[Cindy, Moderator]

Pamela wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I’m not sure who the fifth gentleman is.."

The fifth attendee is Packer, described as “a sub-agent, one of the Marquis’s people, with whom Mr Gilmore was very well acquainted.” Packe..."

Thanks, Pamela, for solving the mystery! :)

[Cindy, Moderator]

Daniela wrote: "I had not understood that the woman who was living with Mrs. Burrows was Carry, did we have clues about it?"

I was surprised by that revelation, as well, Daniela. Looking back, the only hint I saw was that Mr. Toffy seems to either recognize her or connect the dots somehow. She tells him her name is Anne, so that isn't it. But he keeps insisting that he believes she has been to Bullhampton, so maybe he recognizes her? But if so, why doesn't he just point-blank ask her if she is Carry Brattle? Does anyone else see any other clues to her identity? I have no idea how the Vicar knows, unless it is just a hunch.

[Cindy, Moderator]

Trev wrote: "Cousin Walter must be something special to completely overwhelm Mary so quickly after years of feeling nothing for anybody. ..."

I'm curious to see how it turns out. Either it is a case of "when it's right, it's right," or it could be rebound. I also would not discount the whole effect of EVERYONE warning her NOT to fall in love with Walter. Playing "hard to get" actually works a lot of the time! I think Harry Gilmore made his devotion so obvious, his desperation for her so clear, that it was a little bit of a turn-off for her. Walter, on the other hand, is forbidden fruit, and can anything be more enticing? Just a thought!

[Cindy, Moderator]

Trev wrote: "I am now thinking that Sam is keeping quiet about the robbers to protect his sister or that the robbers might be using his sister as a threat, but I could be wrong..."

That is an excellent point, Trev! That had not even crossed my mind. They could be using her as a hostage to guarantee Sam's silence.

[Cindy, Moderator]

Paul wrote: "Call him "Fightin' Frank Fenwick, the Raging Bull of Bullhampton"!"

I love this name!! LOL

[Renee, Moderator]

Frances wrote: "One of the things I admire about Trollope is that he doesn't stereotype, so there are good and bad parsons, good and bad Doctors, good and bad Aristocrats and Squires etc. Certainly in his Chronicles of Barsetshire there are both admirable and despicable clergymen!..."

I agree completely! His characters are just so HUMAN in their faults. There are only a very few characters, in all the Trollope I’ve read, that are genuinely bad in a willfully hurtful, devious way. But there’s plenty of hubris in its varied forms.

[Renee, Moderator]

Paul wrote: "Since we've now met Carry Brattle and heard her talk a little bit with the Vicar, I'm wondering whether she actually was a prostitute in the modern sense or whether it was Victorian morals who labe..."

I definitely see her as the latter. Unfortunately, sometimes a “fallen” woman was so shunned that she eventually became unable to support herself, ie. no one would hire her to work alongside women or men whom she might taint or tempt.

I hope that her family will eventually allow her to return or things will likely end badly for her.

[Renee, Moderator]

It will be interesting to see what Trollope does with Mary. Harry so clearly seems the better man, if less fascinating for her. Walter is decidedly the grasshopper to Harry’s ant. Mary’s story could go so many ways, but, as many have said, is likely to be rather bumpy.

[Frances]

Paul wrote: "I am in complete awe at Trollope's ability to manipulate my emotional response to the scenes of Fenwick's plea (demand?, argument?) to Jacob Brattle to bring Carry back into the family, Fenwick's a..."

You've jumped ahead of where we are in the reading-this section is only up to Chapter 26, so it sounds as if there will be a lot to discuss in next weeks installment!

[Paul]

Frances wrote: "Paul wrote: "I am in complete awe at Trollope's ability to manipulate my emotional response to the scenes of Fenwick's plea (demand?, argument?) to Jacob Brattle to bring Carry back into the family..."

My sincere apologies ... but, in my defense, I was working off a reading schedule that I printed out probably in the middle of May when it was first prepared. Week 3 was listed on that schedule as Chapters 18-28. I didn't know it had changed.

Shall I leave the offending post intact or shall I delete it and re-post next week in the proper thread?