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Bleak House
Bleak House - Group Read 4
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Bleak House: Chapters 1 - 10
Sara - I felt sorry for Tom Jarndyce as well, this line about the case stood out to me: 'For,' says he, 'it's being ground to bits in a slow mill; it's being roasted at a slow fire; it's being stung to death by single bees; it's being drowned by drops; it's going mad by grains.'
His frustration and despair is so poignantly described in such few words.
Greg - I liked your more compassionate view of Krook. That gave me a different perspective to look from. It made me feel a little sad for him. It got me thinking of the people I've known who have been lonely because they were misunderstood.
Shirley - Thanks for pointing out that observation about the dolls head, I would've never noticed that. I guess the idea of "creepy dolls" transcends the generations. :) The phrase "by hook or crook" also came to my mind when I was reading. I couldn't think of anyway it could connect, but I like the connection you made!
Bridget - I loved your thoughts on the illustrations and the symbolism. Thank you for sharing!
Natalie wrote: "Greg - I liked your more compassionate view of Krook. That gave me a different perspective to look from. It made me feel a little sad for him. It got me thinking of the people I've known who have b..."Thanks Natalie! :)
I do suspect he's an unpleasant fellow, but sometimes such behavior becomes a vicious cycle. The more unpleasant or odd a person gets, the more isolated they become, which makes them unhappier and thus more unpleasant. I can't help but feel sorry for him, despite his inappropriate behavior and his hoarding.
After all, when he was younger (if we take him at face value), he seemed concerned for poor Tom Jarndyce, concerned enough to take him to the tavern so he wouldn't be alone. It seems Krook might not always have been the man he has become.
That's a good insight, Greg, how life can wear people down until they become unrecognizable to their younger selves. His life obviously hasn't been that easy.
Nice reminder about Krook taking care of Tom J., Greg. Everyone that is creepy isn't evil, and some of Dickens strangest and most deformed characters end up being the good guys.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Natalie wrote: "There was a lot to think about in this chapter! ..."Exactly!
Luffy - Please do not speed-read, unless you really have to. Plus, I know this novel is one you are keen to read, so..."
To Jean, I didn't speed read at all. What you called speed read, was of a comment of yours, not Bleak House itself.
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The idea of speed-reading Charles Dickens (which I know you did not do) ... well, it's probably best for me not to say :)
I've prepared lots of commentary for today's chapter, so perhaps you'll be doing that again. Hopefully it's interesting though.
Thanks everyone, for all for these great insights.
Natalie - "I think I'm trying to read too deeply into some things :D" This made me laugh, as I know exactly what you mean! We get used to there being lots of levels in Charles Dickens's writing, and sometimes we are surprised when he addresses something directly LOL! Not to worry at all :) Being English, I'm used to various legal, governmental, civil service, the peerage, education systems, locations and so on here, so it's easier for me :)
Now on to today's chapter, number 6, and I think everyone will enjoy this one!
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This chapter carries straight on, with Esther, Ada, and Richard travelling in the carriage to “Bleak House”. They leave the City and go through the suburbs, which all seem as large as towns to Esther. At last they are travelling along a country road again, having left the immense metropolis behind. Richard says he feels like Dick Whittington, especially as they hear the sound of bells, on a passing wagon. The wagon is hitched to a team of beautiful horses, bedecked with red trappings and bells. The wagoner approaches and hands a letter to each of them, confirming Richard’s suggestion that he has come from Mr. Jarndyce.
Esther, Ada, and Richard’s letters are all from their benefactor John Jarndyce, and all exactly the same. Mr. Jarndyce states that he wishes them to meet as old friends, and take the past for granted. He hopes it will be a relief to them, as it is to him. Esther thinks it will be very difficult to not express their thanks to such a kind benefactor. Ada recollects a story her mother used to tell, about how their benefactor was so averse to being thanked for a great act of generosity he did her, that he escaped through the back gate rather than meet her at the door of his house.
The conversation turns to what Mr. Jarndyce will be like, as they travel along rough roads. Sometimes they get out and walk by the carriage, to help the horses. When they reach Barnet (North of London) they change horses. At last, as the day draws to a close, they come to St. Albans (in Hertfordshire) and know that they are now nearing “Bleak House”. The driver eventually points out a light on top of a hill, and says “That’s Bleak House!”, urging the horses forward. As they approach, all three are very nervous.
But they need not have been, as they are greeted very hospitably with:
“Ada, my love, Esther, my dear, you are welcome. I rejoice to see you! Rick, if I had a hand to spare at present, I would give it you! … I am heartily glad to see you. You are at home. Warm yourself!”
As they all sit by the fire, Esther steals a look at her benefactor’s face:
“It was a handsome, lively, quick face, full of change and motion; and his hair was a silvered iron-grey. I took him to be nearer sixty than fifty, but he was upright, hearty, and robust.”
With a shocked start, Esther recognises Mr. Jarndyce as the gruff man with whom she had shared a coach, all those years ago when her godmother had died, and she had left her home to go to “Greenleaf”, the boarding school in Reading. Mr. Jarndyce is aware of this, but says nothing.
Mr. Jarndyce then asks about Mrs. Jellyby. Richard and Ada are reluctant to say anything negative, but Esther admits when prompted, that they all thought Mrs. Jellyby ought to give more priority to her family and housekeeping, and her other projects should come later. At this, Mr. Jarndyce says he had sent them there purposely. He wanted their frank opinion, and begins to admit that he had doubts about the Jellyby children. Oddly, he attributes the ills of the world to the wind blowing from the east. Unknowing, Richard assures Mr. Jarndyce that today the winds were blowing from the north. Mr. Jarndyce appears to the three:
“so whimsical and so lovable, I am sure we were more delighted with him than we could possibly have expressed in any words.”
Mr. Jarndyce would clearly have liked to treat the little Jellyby children, but Ada tells her “Cousin John” (as he wishes to be called) that the best thing of all was to have Esther there, as their loving friend—and she promptly thanks Mr. Jarndyce for providing her with such a companion. Mr. Jarndyce is pleased, and decided he had must have been wrong about the wind.
The three young people are now shown round the house, which being old, has all sorts of little passages and nooks and crannies. Their rooms could not be more different from those Mrs. Jellybys. They are clean, neat, and decked out with all the amenities one could ever hope for. Richard’s room is “part library, part sitting-room, part bedroom”. Mr. Jarndyce’s room is quite bare and plain, with an open window and cold bath. Ada’s room is pretty; all chintz and flowers, and the sitting room she shares with Esther has a variety of peculiar and varied prints on the walls. It is all delightful.
They have almost half an hour before dinner, where Mr. Jarndyce tells them, they will meet a child. He then explains that he does not mean a literal child, but a man who is so guileless as to be one for all worldly affairs. Mr. Harold Skimpole, Mr. Jarndyce claims, is a child despite being a man of Mr. Jarndyce’s own age, in his fifties. Mr. Skimpole is very cultured and gentlemanly:
“a man of attainments and of captivating manners”
Harold Skimpole - Sol Eytinge, Jr. 1867
but despite having many children, he is incapable of looking after them, and says that he wants someone to look after HIM. Mr. Jarndyce comments that the wind is getting up.
Their luggage has arrived, and Esther changes quickly. As she finishes changing, a maid enters and hands Esther a basket containing two sets of keys. These are the housekeeping keys. Esther will be in charge of these as she is to be Bleak House’s housekeeper. Esther is immensely surprised and pleased, but a little apprehensive. She confides in Ada about the trust and confidence that Mr. Jarndyce has entrusted her with, and Ada is encouraging. They return downstairs, and meet Mr. Skimpole:
“He was a little bright creature with a rather large head, but a delicate face and a sweet voice, and there was a perfect charm in him. All he said was so free from effort and spontaneous and was said with such a captivating gaiety that it was fascinating to hear him talk.”
As Mr. Jarndyce had indicated, Mr. Skimpole exhibits a naïve charm, and seems like an overgrown child. He asserts that he knows nothing about money, worldly affairs, and measurements, and that his only demand is for the world is to give him:
“conversation, music, coffee, landscape, fruit of the season, a few sheets of Bristol Board [drawing implements], and a little claret;”
He wants to live free, just like the birds and the bees. All three are charmed and entertained by Mr. Skimpole’s vivacity; aware both of his brilliance and of his remarkable candour, making playful speeches. He speaks of himself in the third person: “as if he were not at all his own affair”…
He was quite enchanting. If I felt at all confused at that early time in endeavouring to reconcile anything he said with anything I had thought about the duties and accountabilities of life (which I am far from sure of), I was confused by not exactly understanding why he was free of them. That he WAS free of them, I scarcely doubted; he was so very clear about it himself.“
Mr. Skimpole also admires Ada, saying that her great beauty makes her like “the child of the universe”. Mr. Jarndyce wryly remarks that the universe makes an indifferent parent, but Mr. Skimpole professes not to understand such “sordid realities”.
As the evening goes on, and Ada and Richard are by the piano, Esther understands a secret glance from Mr. Jarndyce as him confiding to her:
“his hope that Ada and Richard might one day enter on a dearer relationship”.
After a little while Esther realises that Mr. Skimpole is no longer there, and neither is Richard. Presently, a maid urges Esther to go with her, claiming that Mr. Skimpole has been “took”. Esther follows the maid, worriedly expecting to find Mr. Skimpole ill. But when the maid opens the door, Esther is surprised to find him standing before the fire smiling at Richard, who is very embarrassed. A stranger is seated on the sofa:
"Coavinses" - Phiz (Hablot K. Browne) 1853
Richard now explains what the maid had meant by “took”. Mr. Skimpole is in debt, and a debt collector has arrived to collect. He wants Esther’s advice. Should Mr. Skimpole fail to pay, the debt collector says he will either go to jail, or be taken in custody and held at Coavinses.
Skimpole and the Stranger - Harry Furniss 1910
Mr. Skimpole, who is in debt for the amount of twenty-four pounds, sixteen shillings, and seven-pence halfpenny, explains that he has applied for Richard and Ada’s help as he doesn’t wish to bother Mr. Jarndyce again—but more than that, he wishes to give them the opportunity to help him, as he puts it, to:
“develop generosity in a new soil and in a new form of flower”.
“It was a most singular thing that the arrest was our embarrassment and not Mr. Skimpole’s. He observed us with a genial interest, but … had entirely washed his hands of the difficulty, and it had become ours.”
Mr. Skimpole helpfully suggests that Richard, as a ward of Jarndyce, might be able to sign something, but the debt collector point blank refuses this. Eventually Esther and Richard decide to pay for Mr. Skimpole’s debts out of their own pockets, although it takes all Esther’s careful savings. Mr. Skimpole is touched on their account: “as if personal considerations were impossible with him and the contemplation of our happiness alone affected him.”
Harold Skimpole and the Debt Collector - Fred Barnard 1873
The debt collector is satisfied and goes away.
Last thing at night, Mr. Jarndyce discovers what Esther and Richard have done on behalf of Mr. Skimpole, and is not happy. He tells them that Mr. Skimpole has a habit of having others pay his debts, and admonishes Esther and Richard for their charity. He exhorts them never to do it again. He demands details of the amount from Richard, but Richard is too honourable to tell him, unless he says, he is mistaken in that course of action, and if Mr. Jarndyce tells him that it is more proper to do so. Mr. Jarndyce hesitates, clearly in a quandary, and blames the wind, which he claims is blowing from the east.
Esther retrieves the situation by arguing that Mr. Skimpole is too much of a child to even think of taking advantage of anyone. Her reminder—that Mr. Skimpole is a child—appeases Mr. Jarndyce, and he returns to his old self, his face glowing:
“It was so delicious to see the clouds about his bright face clearing, and to see him so heartily pleased, and to know … that the source of his pleasure was the goodness which was tortured by … mistrusting any one, that I saw the tears in Ada’s eyes, while she echoed his laugh, and felt them in my own.”
Mr. Jarndyce makes them promise never to give Mr. Skimpole any more money, ever again. Richard catches Esther’s eye, as they both know that neither of them now have any left.
The wind is now in the south, according to Mr. Jarndyce. By the end of the chapter Ada and Esther agreed that the wind being in the east was a fiction Mr. Jarndyce used to account for any disappointment he could not conceal, rather than blame whoever or whatever is the real cause of it.
Before Esther goes to sleep, she remembers her daydreams that Mr. Jarndyce might be her long lost father. But she pushes the thought away, and resolves to do her duty, and live her new life with a “cheerful spirit and a grateful heart”.
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About an East Wind: :
Traditionally an East Wind is associated with trouble. An East Wind tended to bring inclement weather and was considered to be bad for your health. According to F.S. Schwarzbach (in Dickens and the City 1979) in London, such a wind also brought with it smells and pollution from the East End.
As well as Mr. Jarndyce’s “tell”, there are quite a few other literary references to the East Wind:
1. In Hans Christian Andersen’s fairy tale, “The Garden of Paradise” (1839), it is the East Wind who takes the hero to visit the garden.
2. In George MacDonald’s At the Back of the North Wind (1868, book 1871), the East Wind is described as more mischievous than actually evil. The North Wind says, “One does not exactly know how much to believe of what she says, for she is very naughty sometimes…”
3. In P.L. Travers’s Mary Poppins series (1934–1988), the East Wind indicates change. Mary Poppins arrives at the Banks’ house carried by the East Wind, but warns the children that she will only stay until the wind changes. At the end of the book, (view spoiler).
4. In Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes story, “His Last Bow” (1917 but set in 1914), Sherlock Holmes says to Doctor Watson on the eve of the First World War, at the end of the story:
“There’s an east wind coming, Watson.”
“I think not, Holmes. It is very warm.”
“Good old Watson! You are the one fixed point in a changing age. There’s an east wind coming all the same, such a wind as never blew on England yet. It will be cold and bitter, Watson, and a good many of us may wither before its blast. But it’s God’s own wind none the less, and a cleaner, better, stronger land will lie in the sunshine when the storm has cleared.”
In the recent BBC TV series “Sherlock”, Holmes’s sister, Eurus Holmes, is named after Eurus, the God of the East Wind.
5. In J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings trilogy (1937 to 1949), the East Wind, (and other aspects dealing with the East), is viewed as a thing of evil. For instance in The Two Towers, (view spoiler)we read:
“You left the East Wind to me,” said Gimli, “but I will say naught of it.” “That is as it should be,” said Aragorn. “In Minas Tirith they endure the East Wind, but they do not ask it for tidings….”
6. Marianne Moore's poem “Is Your Town Nineveh?” asks,
“Is it Nineveh
and are you Jonah
in the sweltering east wind of your wishes?“
7. In H.G. Wells’s The History of Mr. Polly , Mr. Polly is aggravated by an east wind and laments that doctors cannot give us an antidote for it.
You may think of other examples :)
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Harold Skimpole is based on a real person, Leigh Hunt , an English critic, essayist, poet, and writer, who continually sponged off his friends, Percy Bysshe Shelley and Lord Byron:
Leigh Hunt:
The Leigh Hunt Memorial - Sir George Frampton 1914
James Henry Leigh Hunt (19 October 1784 – 28 August 1859), an English critic, essayist and poet, was the original of Harold Skimpole in Bleak House. He was a friend and editor of John Keats and Percy Bysshe Shelley, as well as a critic, essayist and poet. He was also a chronic debtor, and according to Charles Dickens, prided himself on his ethereal, otherworldly Romantic imagination: he was a charming humbug, a poser and a leech. In a letter of 25th September 1853, Charles Dickens wrote of Harold Skimpole:
“I suppose he is the most exact portrait that was ever painted in words! … It is an absolute reproduction of a real man”
and another contemporary critic commented:
“I recognized Skimpole instantaneously; … and so did every person whom I talked with about it who had ever had Leigh Hunt’s acquaintance.”
G.K. Chesterton oddly suggested that Charles Dickens:
“may never once have had the unfriendly thought, ‘Suppose Hunt behaved like a rascal!’; he may have only had the fanciful thought, ‘Suppose a rascal behaved like Hunt!’”
Leigh Hunt was a contributor to Charles Dickens’s magazine “Household Words”. Charles Dickens may therefore have made use of him as a topical reference, since he had just published “Table Talk”, which Charles Dickens uses to create Skimpole’s distinctive “voice.” Leigh Hunt and Charles Dickens may have met through Thomas Carlyle, to whom Leigh Hunt presented a copy of “Christianism” (1832), and who subsequently became Leigh Hunt’s next-door neighbour when Leigh Hunt moved to Cheyne Row.
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Victorian Sponging-Houses:
Mr. Skimpole calls Mr. Neckett “Coavinses”, although this is the name of the place he works from, which he calls the “’ouse”
It is a sponging-house: a place of temporary confinement for debtors in the United Kingdom. Here’s a bit more, for those who are interested:
If someone were to get into debt, their creditor would lay a complaint with the sheriff, the sheriff sent his bailiffs, and the debtor would be taken to the local sponging-house. This was not a debtors’ prison, as such, but a private house, often the bailiff’s own home. The debtor would be held there temporarily in the hope that they could make some arrangement with the creditors.
If debtors could not sort matters out quickly, they were then taken before a court and transferred to a debtor’s prison.
Sponging-houses had a terrible reputation, which was made clear in a description by Montagu Stephen Williams, a London lawyer who knew them well, in his Round London, Down East and Up West (1894):
"Ah, my dear fellow, you´ve never seen a sponging-house! Ye gods – what a place! I had an apartment they were pleased to call a bedroom to myself certainly, but if I wanted to breathe the air I had to do so in a cage in the back garden – iron bars all round, and about the size of one of the beast receptacles at the Zoo. For this luxury I had to pay two guineas a day. A bottle of sherry cost a guinea, a bottle of Bass half-a-crown, and food was upon the same sort of economical tariff.”
The idea of the sponging-house was based on that of the sponge that gave it its name, which readily gives up its contents on being squeezed. The sponging-house was the place where debtors had any available cash squeezed out of them, partly to the creditor’s benefit, but also to that of the bailiff who ran it.
Coavinses, or Mr. Neckett, is also described as a “follorer” (follower). This is a debt-collector or sheriff’s agent. There was also a bailiff who followed debtors with a view toward arresting them. There was a difference between the two, a debt collector just collected debts, but a bailiff would serve summonses and orders, and execute all warrants issued out of the corresponding court.
As the population expanded, the need for the services of a bailiff mainly arose from financial disputes. This is why sheriff’s agents came to be closely associated with debt-collection, in the public’s minds. So, the people who were living near this debt-collector just called him a “follerer”.
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Does Mr. Skimpole have wisdom? Or is there more of a scheming contrivance about Harold Skimpole? Perhaps he is more similar to Mr. Micawber from that book? All, these three characters were drawn from life! Mr. Skimpole's character is quite complex, and very well drawn here, I think.
If he is so simple, his justification for approaching Esther and Richard (to give them a chance to feel good about helping him) is remarkably contrived. As is is cross examination of poor Coavinses, the debt collector. He tries very hard to make him feel guilty for coming to the house and making Mr. Skimpole pay his debts, but after all the man is only doing his job! Unlike Mr. Skimpole, he is trying to make a living and actually look after his wife and children. The wards of Jarndyce might be quite gullible, and even Esther is only 20.
Harold Skimpole is a delight to read about, just as Mrs. Jellyby has been. But it’s hard to credit really how naive Mr. Jarndyce seems to be. He is embarrassed whenever anyone tries to thank him for his generosity, and does not see Harold Skimpole for what he is—an out and out scrounger—which the reader sees from the start. Is his judgment really lacking? Or perhaps he fully understands Skimpole, but finds him an innocent and amusing companion.And does Mr. Jarndyce really believe what he says about Mr. Skimpole, or is he deceiving himself? Perhaps he does fully understand Mr. Skimpole but finds him an innocent and amusing companion. After all, until the 3 young people arrived, he was in the house alone, except for the servants, with whom he would not be able to socialise.
What do you think?
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Esther now has a permanent position, as a housekeeper. It is a privileged position, as a valued member of the household. Do you remember in David Copperfield, the first thing the metallic Miss Jane Murstone did was to (view spoiler)? It was a way of taking charge, and asserting her power. In the previous chapter we met the housekeeper at Chesney Wold, Mrs. Rouncewell, and Charles Dickens showed us how reliable and respected she is.
Esther is thus set on the same track. Her role as a companion would not be for long, as the beautiful Ada must surely be destined to make a good marriage. By giving Esther the keys so soon, Mr. Jarndyce is also giving her security for life.
A Victorian housekeeper was more than a keyholder. Sometimes they started as maids, but another route was the impoverished gentry: upper middle class ladies. A housekeeper would need to be literate, and able to keep the books, and to know how to run a big household. She would need to be an expert in etiquette, and to know how to address guests, and what those people might need and expect. Because Bleak House has no mistress, and only a single gentleman, its housekeeper acts as a replacement for the lady of the house, but without the actual status and relationship with the master. It is an important position.
Esther may have had a rough start, but is trained as a governess, and now has the one other position for women at this time, which is better than an ordinary servant: a servant who is almost a member of the family. Of course not every family is good, and some housekeepers in Victorian fiction have a terrible time, but so far things look good.
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The notes from Mr. Jarndyce are warm and welcoming, and he greets them with a “a bright, hospitable voice”. Bleak House itself is “beaming brightly”. He invited them all to “see your home”. It must be such a relief to each of the three, to know they now have a safe home of their own. We feel much more hopeful.
I was struck by the contrasts here. “Bleak House” is anything but bleak, and yet the first time we read about “Chesney Wold”, we were struck by its cold, unhappy aspect; quire the opposite of what its derived name, “Peaceful Hills” means. (Even more ironic is that Mr. Jarndyce tells Esther that the original name of Bleak House was “The Peaks”, which seems to go more with “Wold”.)
Other opposites are Mrs. Jellyby and Mr. Jarndyce, who are both philanthropists, but so different. And I loved the descriptions of the “delightfully irregular house” with many little halls and passages, nooks and crannies, a charming little sitting-room, a flower-garden and even a hollow window-seat.
Bleak House belies its name and its cosiness makes us think it will be a home full of warmth, friendship, and love. In fact I read much of this chapter with a big smile on my face, because of the three young hopefuls. Nobody does hope and optimism better than Charles Dickens :)
Over to you. Please read my commentary first, so we can have a great discussion :)
Mr Jarndyce is such a dear, generous man, and Bleak House is anything but bleak! I loved the cozy, irregular rooms and the sense of warmth.Mr Skimpole does not seem like a child to me, but just someone who does not want to take responsibility for his spending. He reminded me of Mr Micawber, but seemed even more irresponsible. I felt angry that he was sponging off the two young people who had so little money. Skimpole was not really feeling thankful, but acted like he was doing them a favor giving them a chance to be generous. He did have an artsy charm, but that's no excuse for his actions.
Connie wrote: "Mr Jarndyce is such a dear, generous man, and Bleak House is anything but bleak! I loved the cozy, irregular rooms and the sense of warmth.Mr Skimpole does not seem like a child to me, but just s..."
I agree, Connie. I missed Skimpole’s charm, but it’s interesting to find how closely he was patterned after an actual person in Dickens’ life.
I took quite a dislike to Skimpole, wishing he had been taken away. Granted, there were no credit agencies then, but surely his reputation would soon cause his sources of credit to dry up? I'm wondering about his children and their mother(s)... I'm struck that things seem so jolly and cozy at Bleak House, despite the lawsuit's shadow over the story.
Chapter 5I agree with everyone's comments about Mr. Krook - His shop is dreary and a bit creepy... But with a bit more light and a less "M" keeper, think what a treasure hunt the place would be! Every object has a story. From what Mr. Krook says, it sounds like Esther and the Dedlocks are caught up in the Jarndyce suit too. I wonder how! The whole chapter drives home the point of how pointless the suit is - or if it had a point, it's long gone dull. If the old lady can remember and understand all she hears in court, she probably knows more of it than anyone! Somehow it makes me feel a bit less lost in the morass of the suit, that someone has been watching and following along for a very long time. Though what that following has done to her is not hopeful! And why is she so interested? Besides it becoming an obsession.
Chapter 6
When Esther, Ada, and Richard get Mr. Jarndyce's notes, it makes me want to know even more what their history is! The discussion following the receipt of the notes goes to show how easy it is to talk oneself into a fantasy based on a very few pieces of information! And more often than not, the fantasy is wide of the mark.
Oh what a lovely house! Sounds like something I'd love to explore. But also I think someone could have explained things to the young people a bit - I guess it's good that they are so trusting (and haven't come upon anyone truly bad!).
Mr. Jarndyce sounds nice and a bit eccentric :) He seems to collect interesting people. I don't think he's terribly naive, just a bit permanently overwhelmed. Hmmm - maybe Mr. Skimpole is not as simple as he seems to be. He makes delightful reading, but I'd probably find him annoying if we met in real life (same with Mrs. Jellyby).
Good for Esther - I think she will like her new position! The keys (and a lot of other things!) have given her a feeling of hope.
My pardon for not really *participating* in the discussion. I'm not on the computer enough to respond to things people have said - and then I get mixed up who said what... But I do and will very much enjoy reading everyone's comments. We have a long way to go, so I'll keep working on it!Thanks to all for the added insight!
I love all the references to mentionings of the east wind in other literature! I had not picked up on that.
Bionic Jean wrote: "but despite having many children, he is incapable of looking after them, and says that he wants someone to look after HIM. "How do you suppose he ever mustered the wherewithal to interact with the real world and a woman in a manner that would convince her to marry him? It seemed to me that his somewhat restricted personality and mentality would never direct him to seek a wife.
Where is that wife? Where are the children? Are they part of the Jellyby horde?
And speaking of the Jellyby horde, it was obvious that Jarndyce was disappointed to hear of Mrs Jellyby's neglect of the home and her children. Do you feel that he will attempt to do something to correct that?
Bionic Jean wrote: "he was a charming humbug, a poser and a leech. ..."My reaction to Jarndyce and Skimpole is that Jarndyce has been conned ... big time! Just my opinion, of course, but I think "poser" and "leech" are words that are too kind. I walked away from the chapter with the definite quite negative impression that he was a purely narcisstic, self-entitled conman who had actually managed to convince himself that his masquerade was reality. In short, I didn't like Skimpole at all.
Paul wrote: "How do you suppose he ever mustered the wherewithal to interact with the real world and a woman in a manner that would convince her to marry him? It seemed to me that his somewhat restricted personality and mentality would never direct him to seek a wife."P.S. My response to my own question is that this history is evidence that Skimpole is beyond irresponsible to the point of being criminal. I think he wooed a wife, created a family, and then walked away from the responsibility happily aquiring his next mark, Jarndyce.
First and foremost, Jean, this is like a master class that you offer us so generously. Thank you for sharing all of your research and knowledge!I loved this chapter. It felt more straightforward, and full of description and character revelations. A few thoughts:
Mr. J seems to embody the phrase "know which way the wind blows," as he shifts his thinking of it based on circumstances.
I notice we are now getting a profile of Esther's face in the illustrations. Is she slowly being revealed to us?
I agree about Mrs. Jellyby and Mr. Skimpole being irresponsible, and when the children suffer I find it hard to accept. However, is there a place for people like them in our society (provided their responsibilities are met in some way)? From Jean's description of Leigh Hunt, I had the feeling that he was given some regard. My feeling was the three who gave their money weren't being duped by Mr. Skimpole, but had that kind of regard for him. I have a fondness for Mr. Dick and Micawber, so I may be a bit biased. :-)
I liked the chapter. I found the smells and pollution comment apt. Glad that am far from the London of either time or of place(!)I don't have strong feelings for Skimpole or Jarndyce. They seem like unnatural people. Wouldn't be surprised if they stood up and floated in the air currents.
Bleak House is shaping to be more interesting than most books by Dickens that I have read. I remember reading this part in the past. But it seems not like deja-vu. Will wait for the next one with no slurry punt at anyone yet.
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"Where is that wife? Where are the children?" (Give it time ...) "Are they part of the Jellyby horde?" No. ALL the children in the Jellyby household are Mr. and Mrs. Jellyby's own.
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It's absolutely fine Euphrasie! You've made some great comments, and Goodreads is very limited in some ways.
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Thank you so much Kathleen :) I'll have to pace myself a bit ... but I'm glad you're enjoying it, and thanks for sharing your great insights too!
I love how things are instantly looking up now that we’re heading away from Chancery. Like Jean mentioned, I noticed how there were more “cheery” sounding words. It was delightful to see the green landscape before us and the immense metropolis behind;
It was fun that we finally got to meet John Jarndyce! One of my favorite character quirks was that he “could never bear acknowledgments for any kindness he performed.” It made me giggle every time Esther was worried about him scampering away.
I loved when Esther realized that she had already met him once before. :D
It’s easy to see that he’s quite a unique character. His references to the wind, in relation to his moods, was amusing. I loved your comments on the East Wind, Jean. I’ve read many of those books you referenced but never noticed it before. So enlightening! I also appreciated in your summary that you mentioned all the places Jarndyce spoke of the wind.
I also liked the description of his bed chamber.
Out of that you went straight, with a little interval of passage, to the plain room where Mr. Jarndyce slept, all the year round, with his window open, his bedstead without any furniture standing in the middle of the floor for more air, and his cold bath gaping for him in a smaller room adjoining.
I am very much enjoying Bleak House, and love reading just one chapter a day with discussion of that section. This is my first long read with the group, so I'm still feeling my way. Jean, the amount of work and preparation you are putting into this is staggering! But I am happily taking advantage of it. Not making any judgements yet, but I really don't like Skimpole and wouldn't have given him a cent myself. A user and manipulator, no matter how charming and entertaining he may be.
I did not like Mr. Skimpole one little bit. In fact, I dislike him more than any other character we’ve met. I would be happier hanging out with Mr. Krook in in his crazy shop, than a fancy house with Mr. Skimpole. Everyone is tsk-tsking at Mrs. Jellyby for ignoring her children, but for Mr Skimpole, who also abandoned his family and is a lazy bum it’s “He was so full of feeling too and had such a delicate sentiment for what was beautiful or tender that he could have won a heart by that alone.” A big double standard!
(That quote also goes along with what you were asking, Paul, about how he found a wife. He’s a liar and a trickster.)
There’s poor Esther giving away her life savings and Mr. Skimpole is just glad he gave her an opportunity to be generous. Honestly, I wish they’d just let him be carted away. We’ll have to see if he has any redeeming traits as the story continues, but I’m not holding my breath.
It was a most singular thing that the arrest was our embarrassment and not Mr. Skimpole's.
I felt exactly like Coavinses and would’ve been snorting right along with him!
The strange man said nothing but made another snort. It was such a powerful one that it seemed quite to lift him out of his seat.
Thanks for sharing that information about the Sponging Houses, Jean. I agree with Kathleen, this is like a master class! I’m learning so many things! I just finished reading Vanity Fair and I believe (view spoiler)
Kathleen, I do think, in today’s society, there is a place for someone like Mrs. Jellyby. She wanted to work, (her Africa projects) she just didn’t want to have children. She would’ve been able to live the life she wanted in the modern world. As for someone like Mr. Skimpole, there is no place for a conman.
I was thinking a little bit more about Ada in this chapter. It seems that everyone finds her lovely, but I haven’t inferred much of her personality, or if she even has one. She seems kind and gentle, but kind of boring. We will not call such a lovely young creature as that, who is a joy to all mankind, an orphan. She is the child of the universe.
I learned another new word!
*splenetic - bad-tempered; spiteful
Jean - I loved that all of his friends could recognize in Mr. Hunt in Mr. Skimpole. I wonder how Mr. Hunt felt about the whole thing? Or maybe he was like Mr. Skimpole, in that he was having such a delightful time living that way, he didn't care to change.
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So am I Luffy! I'm only a short way from London, but it's not as stinky now!
Mr. Skimpole's wife and child are missing from the story at this point. Esther's mother and father are missing. I sure hope that Mr. Skimpole is not Esther's father unless his character changes enormously. If Skimpole is so self-centered and entitled that he so easily takes money from poor young people he could just as easily use his charm to seduce a woman and leave her in the lurch without a second thought.
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Isn't it odd? It's as if when it "clicks" about the East Wind. you remember all the places in books you subliminally knew it from! I'll bet there are lots more :)
Natalie - I can't remember Vanity Fair in that much detail, but it sounds very likely, unless it was straight to a debtors' prison!
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I'm with Mr. Jarndyce. If society makes such men necessary, then we should respect them. He was a hard-working man with a family, and did not deserve that. But Richard and Esther are youngsters, (less than 20) and do not have enough life experience to stop Mr. Skimpole in full flow.
"Jean, the amount of work and preparation you are putting into this is staggering! But I am happily taking advantage of it." Lovely :) Thank you!
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Thanks for the explanation on "east wind", Jean. Mr. Jarndyce's expression on wind blowing from the east whenever something troubled him amused me so that even to today I remembered it. :)
Jean - as others have said, you are giving us a real treat with this ‘master class’, thank you. The additional information re the east wind is fascinating. I don’t know what to make of John Jarndyce. He’s certainly eccentric and often seems uncomfortable in his own skin. There is a naïveté about him that is lacking in the awful Harold Skimpole. He makes my skin crawl. Mr Dick was a lovely, gentle man and not at all like this conniving leech. He reminds me in many ways of Mr. Micawber but it was impossible not to like him whereas I just can’t stand Skimpole!!
Ada seems to be yet another of Dickens’ insipid women. Perhaps it is too early to make that judgement as she is still very young but that’s how she is coming across. I feel Esther, on the other hand, has the potential to become a strong woman. She will grow into whatever role John Jarndyce gives her, I think.
Richard and Ada are cousins, aren’t they? They appear to be falling in love. Can they marry - legally? You’re probably best placed to answer that, Jean.
I looked up ‘Bristol-board’, mentioned by Skimpole. It’s a stiff paper that was often used for painting with water colour.
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Thank you so much - it gives me a nice warm feeling to know you are enjoying it.
Yes cousins could marry, and Mr. Jarndyce certainly seems to approve of the way Richard and Ada like each other, with his significant glances to Esther.
I agree with everyone's feelings that we are not getting a clear picture of Ada. It does not help that we are seeing her through Esther's rose-coloured lenses - and she seems besotted with her! Perhaps Ada will become more defined in time.
Ooo great catch about ‘Bristol-board’ :)
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Fiona wrote: "Richard and Ada are cousins, aren’t they? They appear to be falling in love. Can they marry - legally?"I don't think there are any legal consanguinity issues beyond second cousin.
Finally caught up with my reading and all of the comments. I am loving the deep dive, and learning so much! I truly appreciate all of the hard work you are putting into this endeavor Jean!Re: East Wind I'm in the midst of a reread of The Two Towers, and I was particularly struck in this reading by (view spoiler), so I immediately thought of the parallels. I never would have thought there would crossovers between Tolkien and Dickens, but there you go.
I enjoyed this chapter so much, particularly the detailed descriptions of the house. Modern houses tend to be built without personality and charm, something this place seems to have in overabundance. What wonderful little scenes of the passing seasons, the harvest and the spring. Reminds one of a time when we were so much more dependent on the vicissitudes of nature and the weather.
What an interesting allusion to (or parody of perhaps?) Leigh Hunt. I own a beautiful, gilt-edged copy of his essays, inspired by my love of Helene Hanff's 84 Charing Cross Road. While I found Mr. Skimpole to be quite odious, there must be some charm and affability in sponges like him, otherwise people wouldn't tolerate them, and pay off their debts for them. Its hard to know whether or not people like him are aware of what they do to the people around them. I do think at least some of them are oblivious, willfully or not. The question is whether Mr. Skimpole is, or just an accomplished actor.
Jean. I appreciate all the work you are putting into this read. You definitely are adding to my reading enjoyment. The first time I read this book was 50 years ago and I remember so little. I am really enjoying it and reading the summation every day. Thanks, Jean.
Almost everything I had thought to say has already been said, with at least a dozen things I wouldn't have thought of. I love reading with this group!As always, thank you so much Jean for all the detailed information you share! I had no idea of the sponging houses.
I thought of the east wind Biblically. It was an east wind that blew the locusts in to plague Egypt, and an east wind that parted the Red Sea, saving the Israelites and drowning the pursuing Egyptians. If you mentioned this in your list, Jean, I apologize for repeating it.
I dislike Skimpole, although when he was introduced I was expecting another Mr. Dick. I don't think that is what we got, Mr. Dick was genuinely simple, I think Skimpole is genuinely crafty. His name is another lovely Dickens creation, because I thought immediately of someone skimming off the cream.
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Thank you Tara - I'm so glad you've made it to this read - and are all caught up now :) Wow - talk about serendipity with J.R.R. Tolkien's East Wind!
Interesting thoughts about Mr. Skimpole. I suppose if you truly believe you are the centre of the universe (like a very small child) then you could be oblivious and therefore blameless. Maybe we'll find out.
Hooks having been set in the readers in earlier chapters, Dickens appeared to write more straightforwardly in this chapter, spending more time on developing new characters and on the setting, Bleak House. Mr. Skimpole's name sounds worse than the character described. He may cause some mischief. I felt rather blank about Jarndyce which Dickens may have intended. I paid most attention to the descriptions of the house. I would think that the readers of the period would still be trying to fathom what kind of novel this would be,and with the title and gothic elements already introduced, ghost story/haunted house might be a possibility. I didn't thjnk the chapter furthered that thought, with the exception that the house is drafty and has lots of rooms and passages, but Dickens did take some time to describe some pictorial wall covering and hangings and I thought that descrjption very interesting although I saw no hidden meaning beyond the descriptive. It still was a curious and long paragraph. Esther mentioning and dismissing the thought of Jarndyce being her father, reinforced by his appointing her housekeeper, makes me think that is not going to be the case so I feel this chapter answered a couple of possibilities from the earlier chapters since Jarndyce was the man in the coach with the plumcake. Of course it intensifies the mystery of why he is doting on Esther.
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Aw thanks Antoinette!
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Duchess of Malfi (other topics)Bleak House (other topics)
Plotting Women: Gender and Narration in the Eighteenth- and Nineteenth-Century British Novel (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
The Pickwick Papers (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
P.D. James (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
John Webster (other topics)
P.L. Travers (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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Petra - I loved your thoughts on the old lady. I haven't found her to be mad either, in fact, she's probably the character that has the most of my sympathy.
Michael - I liked your thoughts on Mr. Tulkinghorn's dress. Such great imagery! I can't remember if this has been mentioned or not, yet, but the the audiobook makes his name sound like "talking horn" and I that was amusing since he's known to be such a "vault."
Lee - I've never thought of Dickens as gothic, either, but this book definitely has a bit of that feel!