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Stoker, Dracula > Week 8 - Dracula, Chapters 26-27, and book as a whole

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message 1: by David (new)

David | 3270 comments CHAPTER XXVI
DR SEWARD’S DIARY
Mina's hypnotism sessions become harder to establish.

MINA HARKER’S JOURNAL
The party arrives in Galatz.

JONATHAN HARKER’S JOURNAL
The men track down and interview the conveyors of Dracula's box. One man, Skinsky, appears to have been killed by Dracula successfully hiding his tracks.

MINA HARKER’S JOURNAL
Mina has a Eureka moment.

MINA HARKER’S MEMORANDUM
Mina presents an impressive summary of the facts, examination of Dracula's options, produces a reasonable chain of events, in the production of a very strong case that the Count is moving by water, up the Sereth River back to his Castle.

MINA HARKER’S JOURNAL—(continued)
Mina's analysis of Dracula's path back to his castle is well received by the men and earns her membership to the group again.

It is decided Lord Godalming and Dr. Seward will pursue Dracula up the river by steam launch, Mr. Morris and Jonathan will travel overland with horses along the bank, while Van Helsing and Mina will go by carriage to Castle Dracula by Jonathan's original route. Jonathan protests taking Mina to the Castle, but Van Helsing convinces him of the need.

Later Mina praises the men and is thankful they have enough money to afford such a venture.

JONATHAN HARKER’S JOURNAL
Jonathan writes by the light of the furnace and the steam launch he and Lord Godalming are chasing Dracula's boat up the river in. The cold weather is taking its toll on the men.

DR SEWARD’S DIARY
Dr. Seward also notes the bitterly cold weather. There is news the launch met with an accident attempting to go up rapids. The launch was eventually able to continue, but time is lost and travel is not as smooth as before.

MINA HARKER’S JOURNAL
Van Helsing gears up for a trip that Mina thinks would be a more enjoyable and beautiful one, if not for their purpose in being there.


message 2: by David (new)

David | 3270 comments CHAPTER XXVII
MINA HARKER’S JOURNAL

Mina's scar provokes the superstitious locals into crossing themselves and putting out two fingers from protection from the evil eye.

MEMORANDUM BY ABRAHAM VAN HELSING
Mina's behavior continues to become more and more suspicious and VH admits he is afraid.

After building a fire in sight of the castle, VH draws a circle of crushed wafer around them and confirms Mina is unable to cross it and notes,
I rejoiced, for I knew that what she could not, none of those that we dreaded could. Though there might be danger to her body, yet her soul was safe!
This circle of protection protects them from an encounter with the three ladies, but their horses are killed. After the sun comes up, VH prepares to set out to destroy the thee ladies.

JONATHAN HARKER’S JOURNAL
The men are now all on horseback pursuing the Szgany returning Dracula to his castle.

DR SEWARD’S DIARY
Dr. Seward ominously notes,
We ride to death of some one. God alone knows who, or where, or what, or when, or how it may be ...



message 3: by David (new)

David | 3270 comments DR VAN HELSING’S MEMORANDUM
Van Helsing makes a hard choice between protecting Mina from the wolves and going on alone to destroy the three ladies,
I resolve me that my work lay here, and that as to the wolves we must submit, if it were God’s Will. At any rate it was only death and freedom beyond. So did I choose for her. Had it but been for myself the choice had been easy; the maw of the wolf were better to rest in than the grave of the Vampire!
VH admits he is not dead,
Yes, I was moved—I, Van Helsing, with all my purpose and with my motive for hate—I was moved to a yearning for delay which seemed to paralyse my faculties and to clog my very soul.
Fortunately a wail from Mina moves him past his paralyzing fascination
She was so fair to look on, so radiantly beautiful, so exquisitely voluptuous, that the very instinct of man in me, which calls some of my sex to love and to protect one of hers, made my head whirl with new emotion. But God be thanked, that soul-wail of my dear Madam Mina had not died out of my ears; and, before the spell could be wrought further upon me, I had nerved myself to my wild work.
Finally VH finds Dracula's tomb, conveniently labled DRACULA, places wafer in it, and so banished him from it, Un-Dead, for ever.VH also reports,
hardly had my knife severed the head of each, before the whole body began to melt away and crumble into its native dust, as though the death that should have come centuries agone had at last assert himself and say at once and loud ‘I am here!’
I am reminded of the melting dragons and swords in Beowulf.


message 4: by David (new)

David | 3270 comments MINA HARKER’S JOURNAL
Mina describes the final encounter amongst a setting sun, a cold and swirling snowstorm, galloping horsemen, gathering wolves, a showdown with the gypsies, and the flash of several knives, Dracula meets his end and crumbles into dust. Mina notes,

I shall be glad as long as I live that even in that moment of final dissolution, there was in the face a look of peace, such as I never could have imagined might have rested there.
Quincey says with his dying breath,
‘Now God be thanked that all has not been in vain! See! the snow is not more stainless than her forehead! The curse has passed away!’
NOTE
Jonathan notes there are very few original documents left implying the bulk of the material being typewritten copies makes it less authentic. Why does VH state, after we have read all of the surviving material that, ". . .we ask none to believe us!?


message 5: by Sam (new)

Sam Bruskin (sambruskin) | 270 comments So VH leaves Mina with a pistol to wait for the wolves. And the horses being dead merits a short statement mid-paragraph, and no comment.
and they never get to the castle?
The scene of Dracula's final defeat seems anti-climactic.
But not to say the novel was not satisfying. An enjoyable read.


message 6: by David (last edited Dec 22, 2021 12:24PM) (new)

David | 3270 comments Sam wrote: "The scene of Dracula's final defeat seems anti-climactic."

What? The men on their horses galloping at full speed to catch Szgany carting Dracula in his box racing against the setting sun and the gathering wolves, in a final showdown with drawn guns and flashing knives with not one but two deaths, all in the middle of an ill timed snowstorm probably controlled by Dracula, did not do it for you? :)


message 7: by Emil (new)

Emil | 255 comments After he travelled from Transylvania to England, Dracula met his end near his castle. A full circle.

What was the point of Dracula's voyage? Just finding new unsuspecting victims? I don't think so, the first thing he did in England was to attack Mina's best friend, Mina being the wife of the only person in England who could identify him. It's like he wanted to get caught.  I msy be wrong, but I think he was subconsciously seeking his destruction and the liberation of his soul.


message 8: by Jen (new)

Jen Well-Steered (well-steered) Emil wrote: "After he travelled from Transylvania to England, Dracula met his end near his castle. A full circle.

What was the point of Dracula's voyage? Just finding new unsuspecting victims? I don't think s..."


If he didn't want to be identified in England, he could have either just let Jonathan transact his business and leave or he could have killed him in Romania. Isn't that a typical villain's mistake, though? Leave without checking your victim is really dead?

It felt like Lucy was just convenient. The boat landed in Whitby, she was walking around at night, easy prey. The fact that Mina was her friend and was married to Jonathan was a coincidence.

We don't get any lines from Dracula once he arrives in England, right? Or very few? My copy is 600 pages so I don't remember every detail. So we don't get the typical villain's speech where he explains his whole motivation before he dies. It doesn't seem like he was on a suicide mission to the UK, more like everyone in Romania already knew what he was and how to keep him away, so he needed to go somewhere else to find new hunting grounds.


message 9: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Several questions that remain unanswered:

How did Jonathan escape from Dracula's castle?
Why didn't Dracula kill him when he had the chance?
Why did Dracula go to England?
What was Dracula up to with Renfield? I still don't get Renfield's role.
Presumably, Dracula has lived for centuries. Why wasn't he able to turn more people into vampires in all that time? I counted the three women and Lucy. It doesn't seem much of a haul for several centuries worth of work.

I think the scene of the chase and the final confrontation with Dracula was pretty exciting and probably visually thrilling on a movie screen.


message 10: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments My favorite character was Mina. Van Helsing got on my nerves with his pontificating and his "Madame Mina" all the time. The men struck me as sort of bungling about the place. Their mission would not have succeeded without Mina's smarts.

I felt sorry for Dracula. Yes, he was evil. But he was also a soul in pain driven to do what he needed to do to survive. Mina recognizes him as a suffering soul who finally finds peace. I like Emile's suggestion that Dracula "was subconsciously seeking his destruction and the liberation of his soul." Maybe that is what Stoker was getting at--that people who are "othered", who are marginalized by society for being different from the "norm" will find peace only in death. A bit bleak, but considering his time-frame and the de-humanizing treatment of homosexuals by the Victorians, it may not be far-fetched.

I probably won't read any more vampire novels because it's just not my thing. But I enjoyed the novel and am glad I finally read it. I really enjoyed the discussion and got a lot out of it that I would have missed had I read it alone. Thanks to everyone who participated and a special thank you to David for doing a great job moderating the discussion and keeping it interesting.


message 11: by David (new)

David | 3270 comments Tamara wrote: "How did Jonathan escape from Dracula's castle?"

Jonathan tells us his plan of escape at the end of chapter 4,
I shall try to scale the castle wall farther than I have yet attempted. I shall take some of the gold with me, lest I want it later. I may find a way from this dreadful place. And then away for home! away to the quickest and nearest train! away from this cursed spot, from this cursed land, where the devil and his children still walk with earthly feet!
Apparently he was successful because Sister Agatha tells us,
He came in the train from Klausenburg, and the guard was told by the station-master there that he rushed into the station shouting for a ticket for home. Seeing from his violent demeanour that he was English, they gave him a ticket for the furthest station on the way thither that the train reached.



message 12: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Thanks, David. I missed that.


message 13: by David (new)

David | 3270 comments Tamara wrote: "Why didn't Dracula kill him when he had the chance?"

I have to speculate here but I suspect Dracula was keeping the three ladies prisoners, possibly to keep his competition down. He seems to want to keep them around the castle enough that he is willing to bring them children to feed on. Dracula dangled Jonathan as the final carrot necessary to keep the ladies under control until he could get away. On the night before Dracula's departure, Jonathan overhears him addressing the ladies,
‘Back, back, to your own place! Your time is not yet come. Wait. Have patience. Tomorrow night, tomorrow night, is yours!’ There was a low, sweet ripple of laughter, and in a rage I threw open the door, and saw without the three terrible women licking their lips. As I appeared they all joined in a horrible laugh, and ran away.



message 14: by Chris (new)

Chris | 478 comments I thoroughly enjoyed the novel for its surface story of good vs. evil, and its introduction to Vampire lore, any symbolism was just additive and made for interesting conversation. Since I thought this was an origin story and discovered it wasn't, I plan to read Carmilla to see what Stoker pulled from that.

Mina was my favorite character also.

I also thought the destruction of Dracula was anti-climatic. The destruction of the three harpies were more descriptive. The voyages and the "chase" up to that last night were slow and I felt no tension. How many times do we have to read about the "lapping of water" ?

Emil wrote It's like he wanted to get caught. I msy be wrong, but I think he was subconsciously seeking his destruction and the liberation of his soul.

I think the Vampire is pure evil and is unaware that there is any ability to free his soul. Also D thought he had outlasted them again as Mina wrote As I looked , the eyes saw the sinking sun, and the look of hate in them turned to triumph.

Tamara wrote: Presumably, Dracula has lived for centuries. Why wasn't he able to turn more people into vampires in all that time? I counted the three women and Lucy. It doesn't seem much of a haul for several centuries worth of work.
I don't think the Vampire's purpose is to populate the earth with Vampires. They use humans (as well as animals) to feed on, not necessarily turn.


message 15: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 5241 comments So, the Dracula story as a whole -- are vampires "real"?


message 16: by Jen (new)

Jen Well-Steered (well-steered) Tamara wrote: "Several questions that remain unanswered:

How did Jonathan escape from Dracula's castle?
Why didn't Dracula kill him when he had the chance?
Why did Dracula go to England?
What was Dracula up to w..."


If everyone a vampire bit in turn became a vampire, they would very quickly run out of humans. So they have to be selective about who is food vs who they want to grant eternal life to.


message 17: by David (last edited Dec 24, 2021 04:40AM) (new)

David | 3270 comments Lily wrote: "So, the Dracula story as a whole -- are vampires "real"?"

Great question. The short answer is of course no. However, I am thinking there is probably a much qualified and nuanced case to be made asserting the affirmative. Does anyone want to take a crack at one? Hint: Renfield's would contribute to this case.


message 18: by David (new)

David | 3270 comments Tamara wrote: "Why did Dracula go to England?"

Dracula wants the safety of being the master lost in a the crowd,
I long to go through the crowded streets of your mighty London, to be in the midst of the whirl and rush of humanity, to share its life, its change, its death, and all that makes it what it is. . .Here I am noble; I am boyar the common people know me, and I am master. But a stranger in a strange land, he is no one; men know him not—and to know not is to care not for. I am content if I am like the rest, so that no man stops if he see me, or pause in his speaking if he hear my words, to say, “Ha, ha! a stranger!” I have been so long master that I would be master still—or at least that none other should be master of me.
He also some the imperialistic goals of a conqueror when he threatened the men in his Piccadilly house,
Your girls that you all love are mine already; and through them you and others shall yet be mine—my creatures, to do my bidding and to be my jackals when I want to feed.



message 19: by Emil (last edited Dec 25, 2021 12:35AM) (new)

Emil | 255 comments How about Dracula as a metaphor for uncontrolled immigration? Is Stoker playing with the victorian xenophobia?

EAST EUROPEAN IMMIGRANTS
Sucking the blood of Britain.
Vote YES for immigration control.

Looks like a billboard for Brexit.


message 20: by Emil (new)

Emil | 255 comments Chris wrote: "I thoroughly enjoyed the novel for its surface story of good vs. evil..."

I think there are other opposing forces besides good vs. evil:  norm vs. deviance, science vs. supernatural, tradition vs. modernity. My favourite characters were Mina and Renfield because they were constantly torn between those forces. Maybe that's why they had a sort of secret understanding even though they haven't met before.


message 21: by Kathy (new)

Kathy (klzeepsbcglobalnet) | 525 comments I think Stoker really wants us to admire Mina above all because the novel ends with her. Van Helsing says, "This boy will some day know what a brave and gallant woman his mother is. Already he knows her sweetness and loving care; later on he will understand how some men so loved her, that they did dare much for her sake." It's almost as if the novel could be titled Mina instead. It's surprising that she isn't known as one of the great 19th-century heroines. She has a lot going for her, and the crux of the novel is the saving of her soul, in which she takes an active role.

I also found Mina and Jonathan to be the best storytellers in the novel. The whole first section at Dracula's castle, as told by Jonathan in his journal, was a master class in rising suspense. I was really interested--until we got to chapter 5 when the structure of various people's letters and diaries began. The next most engaging part, for me, was the ending, when Mina tells the climax through her journal--very cinematic! And I was never certain that they would succeed. Basically, I wasn't sure whether I was reading a romance (with a happy ending, including marriages for the other men and a baby for Mina and Jonathan) or a tale of horror (with a tragic ending, including Mina moving into the tomb with the other women and Dracula continuing to roam the earth and perhaps turn up at your own bedroom window some night), so the ending for me was suspenseful.

I would have enjoyed the whole middle part of the novel better without the multiple narrators. Having their pov didn't really add anything to the story, and because they were always retelling what had happened after the fact or making plans before the fact, there was never any sense of immediacy, as if we were right in the moment *as* it was happening. Using letters and diaries is a great device when you're interested in the psychology of the characters, when you really want to get inside their heads and see what they're thinking, but I didn't feel that any of the men, with the possible exception of Van Helsing, were very well developed as characters in their own right, and their writings were more action-oriented than psychological.

I was thinking I would like to see a skilled author retell this story with that missing immediacy because the bones (so to speak) of the story are really interesting and sometimes thrilling. Then I wondered if that's what Anne Rice already did. Has anyone read her?


message 22: by Chris (last edited Dec 26, 2021 07:26AM) (new)

Chris | 478 comments Kathy wrote: I was thinking I would like to see a skilled author retell this story with that missing immediacy because the bones (so to speak) of the story are really interesting and sometimes thrilling. Then I wondered if that's what Anne Rice already did. Has anyone read her?

I have read most of her vampire series, but a very long time ago. As I recall they were very different, more about the culture of vampires, their secret lives, the groups formed among them and various power plays between them. Of course, each story has a focus on a particular relationship either btw a couple of vampires or btw a vampire and a human.

I found your comments on the book as a whole very interesting. And I couldn't agree more about Mina!


message 23: by Sam (new)

Sam Bruskin (sambruskin) | 270 comments What has already been said here has covered most of the narrative questions (except how Jen's copy is 600 pages long! what has Kindle left out?)and very well.
I thought about how to add something new. One possibility would be to take D himself as the protagonist, which would make the title of the book more descriptive. Much better would be to call it "Mina's Diary". For a moment I tried "Renfield". That makes a good title, but there is not much of him.
But look at this. What an act of imagination by Stoker! You can trace sources and find myths he could have drawn from. But really, to pull the whole thing together and create the legend of this monster that is active for 125 years now. What a great feat of Imagination. He really just pulls it out of the air, or the zeitgeist (as VH might say). It's like Paul McC and "Get Back". It's an act of magic.
I applaud the writer's accomplishment. What writing can do. We already know that, it's why we read. But watching it as it happens is pretty exciting.


message 24: by Kathy (new)

Kathy (klzeepsbcglobalnet) | 525 comments The introduction in my copy (I always read them after, not before) emphasizes the contemporary "zeitgeist," as Sam puts it, which I agree really emphasizes Stoker's imaginative achievement: "...ideas about the nature of repression and the unconscious were not yet current but were definitely in the air. [The novel] appeared at a turning point in social and intellectual history. Between 1895 and 1900 Sigmund Freud was developing many of the major ideas that would inform Freudian psychology--dream interpretation, the unconscious, and the repression of unpleasant or amoral thoughts..." It goes on to list a number of texts of that time dealing with similar themes: The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, etc. This introduction also points out something I was noticing in the beginning of my own reading experience--that it's hard to read Dracula today without all the layers of criticism and cultural theory that have followed it. But if you can, you realize the depth of Stoker's imaginative act.

I also had a funny moment of synergy last night while watching the movie The Man Who Invented Christmas , which imagines (kind of like Shakespeare in Love, quite fictionally) Dickens' invention of A Christmas Carol. One of his inspirations in this story is a serialized edition of Varney the Vampyre that his new maid is carrying around in her pocket. He trades her a copy of 1,001 Arabian Nights in order to get it from her. According, again, to my book's introduction, this was one of the Dracula precursors, written by James Malcolm Ryder from 1845 to 1847. A Christmas Carol was published in 1843. So, not a real detail, but fun nevertheless.

BTW, I was reading a Barnes & Noble Classics copy (used bookstore find), and the introduction is by Brooke Allen.


message 25: by David (last edited Dec 27, 2021 06:42AM) (new)

David | 3270 comments Lily wrote: "So, the Dracula story as a whole -- are vampires "real"?"

1. I posit that Dracula symbolically represents the very real or perceived fears and institutions that are a drain on the life of people and nations.
a. Immigration fears, xenophobia, fears of a changing majority, etc.
b. Colonialism both the fears of colonialism as revealed in the case of reverse colonialism.
b1. The taking over of someone else's land as Dracula does with his strategic real estate purchase and resources, as Dracula see's people as meals, robs people of their livelihoods and lives. E.g., the, I drink your milkshake, line from the movie There Will Be Blood. I am sure we could all think of a few corporate vampires out there.
c. Consequences of moral depravity, especially sexual.
d. Disease and fear of disease.
f. Fear of death while on the wrong side of God.
g. The realization that simple goodness is inadequate to fight evil; one must also use reason and knowledge backed by moral fortitude.

2. I also posit that Renfield represents the real vampire that we may actually run into, the mistaken human being operating on error, as opposed to a malign supernatural force. He is a misguided person who in his fear of death thinks he has found a way to guarantee life for himself even at the expense of others. Fortunately, in his case, Dr. Seward and Mina make him see the consequences of his pursuits in terms of the cost in souls for which he is ultimately unwilling to accept. Dracula is more than willing to accept those souls, which is what makes him evil.


message 26: by Lisa Bianca (last edited Dec 26, 2021 11:33PM) (new)

Lisa Bianca (lisabianca) Tamara wrote: "I think the scene of the chase and the final confrontation with Dracula was pretty exciting and probably visually thrilling on a movie screen...."
Yes, I imagined the ending as a movie scene, there is sure to be a movie or two and I'd like to check out how they portrayed it.
Although I can understand Sam writing "the scene of Dracula's final defeat seems anti-climactic ..." " as the book wound up rather quickly after the long long chase and as Chris wrote: " How many times do we have to read about the "lapping of water" ? .... Perhaps this was Bram Stoker's attempt to build tension, rather than irritation?

I noticed towards the end of the story Van Helsing made another speech that made me recall the question discussed early in the book as to why everyone was so secretive about what was occurring ... the reason had been put about by the group that these were changing times and modern young people were becoming less superstitious and more scientific in their approach.
In Mina Harkers journal 5th October - Van Helsing says of Dracula : "He have done this alone; all alone! from a ruin tomb in a forgotten land. What more may he not do when the greater world of thought is open to him. He that can smile at death, as we know him; who can flourish in the midst of diseases that kill off whole peoples. Oh! if such an one was to come from God, and not the Devil, what a force for good might he not be in this old world of ours. But we are pledged to set the world free. Our toil must be in silence, and our efforts all in secret; for in this enlightened age, when men believe not even what they see, the doubting of wise men would be his greatest strength. ...."

And what lovely thoughts in forming a "happy" ending that Dracula found peace, the restitution of Renfield from misguided evil doer to rescuer, the heroic and meaningful death of Quincey Morris, and the saving of Lucy's soul (despite the inept comedy of errors, as to her losing it in the first place), the recovery of Mina and as David wrote: "The realization that simple goodness is inadequate to fight evil; one must also use reason and knowledge backed by moral fortitude....."

I echo Tamara's words in wanting to thank David for such interesting leading on the story and everyone who contributed, resulting in a much more enriched experience from a story I wrongly thought I knew well enough.


message 27: by Jen (last edited Dec 27, 2021 05:01AM) (new)

Jen Well-Steered (well-steered) Sam wrote: "What has already been said here has covered most of the narrative questions (except how Jen's copy is 600 pages long! what has Kindle left out?)and very well.
I thought about how to add something ..."


I had the Puffin Classics hardback edition, and the introduction was only 5 pages long.

Anyway, I suspect that had Bram Stoker written this book in 2021 and lived another 15 years as in his original timeline, he'd spend them turning Dracula into a multi-billion dollar franchise with novels, films, and television series from every character's perspective. Of course that happened to Stephanie Meyer instead.

One of his great grandnephews did write a 'sequel' in 2009, set 25 years after the end of the original novel in which Quincy Harker must track down and kill Elizabeth Bathory.


message 28: by Lisa Bianca (new)

Lisa Bianca (lisabianca) Jen wrote: "One of his great grandnephews did write a 'sequel' in 2009, set 25 years after the end of the original novel in which Quincy Harket must track down and kill Elizabeth Bathory..."
Really? What is it called?

Jen wrote: "Had Bram Stoker written this book in 2021 and lived another 15 years as in his original timeline, he'd spend them turning Dracula into a multi-billion dollar franchise with novels, films, and television series from every character's perspective. Of course that happened to Stephanie Meyer instead. ..."

Absolutely


message 29: by Jen (new)

Jen Well-Steered (well-steered) Lisa Bianca wrote: "Jen wrote: "One of his great grandnephews did write a 'sequel' in 2009, set 25 years after the end of the original novel in which Quincy Harket must track down and kill Elizabeth Bathory..."
Really..."


Dracula Un-Dead by Dacre Stoker.


message 30: by Lisa Bianca (new)

Lisa Bianca (lisabianca) Jen wrote: "Dracula Un-Dead by Dacre Stoker."

Thank you, Great name, Dacre.
I see the reviews are very mixed, but the more recent prequel, Dracul, has great reviews.


message 31: by Tamara (last edited Dec 27, 2021 06:23AM) (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments David wrote: "Lily wrote: "So, the Dracula story as a whole -- are vampires "real"?"

1. I posit that Dracula symbolically represents the very real or perceived fears and institutions that are a drain on the lif..."


I really liked your interpretations of Dracula.
He can be perceived as a metaphor for major corporations that are sucking the life blood out of small businesses by draining them of their customers.
And, as you said, he can also be interpreted as a colonial power draining the country being colonized of its indigenous population and its natural resources.
I would never have dreamed the novel would yield so many different and interesting interpretations. Thank you.


message 32: by David (new)

David | 3270 comments Susanna wrote: "Jen wrote: "It doesn't seem like he was on a suicide mission to the UK, "

Agreed, with apologies to Robert Burns
But Dracula, thou art no thy-lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o’
Rats an’ vampires
Gang aft agley,
And apologies to every bad guy on Scooby-Doo.
And I [Dracula] would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!



message 33: by Sam (new)

Sam Bruskin (sambruskin) | 270 comments VH's speech, which Lisa Bianca quotes from Mina's Journal of Oct. 5,
it is totally unlike anything else he has said. It is completely coherent, sentences structured, no topsy-turvy parts of speech. So even VH found comprehension and order.
As for vampires being real on earth, notthing strikes me as more real than oil wells piercing the earths flesh and drawing out the blood to feed rampant industrial destruction. Stoker didn't know about that, but he could have known of Moby Dick and the destruction of the whale population to feed the lamps.


message 34: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 5241 comments Sam wrote: "....As for vampires being real on earth, nothing strikes me as more real than oil wells piercing the earths flesh and drawing out the blood to feed rampant industrial destruction....."

Absolutely fascinating is what happens when language is used to move between the allegorical and the observed. Since our read of The Decameron, I have been playing with Erich Auerbach's Mimesis once again. Maybe I am beginning to understand, a least a bit more, his exploration of humankind's usages of words to capture the human mind's perceived images of reality. ( This pass, I especially enjoyed his final discussion based on excerpts of Virginia Woolf's Mrs. Dalloway , which probably has little relevance to Dracula other than to speak to the simultaneous multiple perspectives of the human mind that can be translated/transcribed into words and sentences.)


message 35: by Sam (new)

Sam Bruskin (sambruskin) | 270 comments Auerbach's Mimesis is among my very favorite books.
Meanwhile, the vampire references you all have brought forward have me rethinking my out-and-out praise for Stoker's imagination. I do still credit him for the imaginative accomplishment of carving Dracula out of the Zeitgeist; but, it is more like Michaelangelo's description of seeing The Form within the marble, and merely cutting away the rest.


message 36: by Lily (last edited Dec 28, 2021 11:03AM) (new)

Lily (joy1) | 5241 comments Kathy wrote: "I think Stoker really wants us to admire Mina above all because the novel ends with her. Van Helsing says, "This boy will some day know what a brave and gallant woman his mother is. Already he know..."

For me, two of the more troubling aspects of Dracula have always been the characters of Mina and Lucy. To me, they are "caricatures" -- representation by means of deliberate simplification and significant distortion of parts or characteristics or by use of emotionally charged attributes. And, they attained becoming caricatures sustained and promulgated in popular media/later literature/....

But, then, consider my weekend included how does one incorporate the birth story of Jesus into the family celebration of Christmas even as Disney releases Encanto, which we enjoy watching amidst the bevy of the Disney "princess" dolls of the 3 1/2 year old present.


message 37: by Borum (last edited Jan 04, 2022 04:37PM) (new)

Borum | 586 comments Chris wrote: "I thoroughly enjoyed the novel for its surface story of good vs. evil, and its introduction to Vampire lore, any symbolism was just additive and made for interesting conversation. Since I thought t..."

I was more scared by the harpie scene than the destruction of Dracula, because 1) it seemed as if Mina, too, was going over to the dark side.. how to kill van Helsing's dearly loved heroine? 2) the first person perspective of Van Helsing (especially the fantastic atmosphere that made him doubt his own sanity) made it much more scary than the third person perspective of Mina looking at the struggle from afar. 3) The scene was much more descriptive and more harrowing as van Helsing struggles to fight the lure of the beautiful, voluptuous harpies internally whereas the guys don't have any internal psychological struggle with fighting the gypsies or the count.

This was what made Dracula more interesting and poignant than just a simple monster story. What if, the evil one or the enemy is beautiful, or cultured, and understandable or even lovable (like the harpies, or count Dracula or Lucy or Mina?) What if the evil is internal and insidious instead of external and completely alien?

I've recently read Frankenstein and I think Shelley did a finer job portraying the 'monster' as a creature where we can feel empathy and are not sure whether to condemn him. However, Dracula planted those understandable evil in other characters and through one of those character's (Mina's) eyes, finally gained the understanding he might have been searching for.. and perhaps his trip to London was a way of his release.


message 38: by Borum (new)

Borum | 586 comments Lily wrote: "Kathy wrote: "I think Stoker really wants us to admire Mina above all because the novel ends with her. Van Helsing says, "This boy will some day know what a brave and gallant woman his mother is. A..."

I thought van Helsing's accent and behavior was somewhat of a caricature as well. I'm a bit bothered by the stress on the woman's heart and man's brain thing.. but I think Stoker might have been making fun of the dichotomy. (I noticed how Mina got roused into a fighting mood although she's a 'woman' and half expected her to shoot that pistol)


message 39: by Borum (last edited Jan 04, 2022 04:44PM) (new)

Borum | 586 comments I have been crazy busy these couple of days and couldn't join in the final discussion but I want to thank David and everyone else for a fabulous group read of my second horror classic (after Frankenstein). I'm a scaredy cat and probably would have never attempted this book without this chance. Maybe I'll try Poe or Lovecraft one day.


message 40: by Sam (new)

Sam Bruskin (sambruskin) | 270 comments Poe is Essential. Go for it.


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