Sarum by Edward Rutherfurd [January 4, 2022]

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "Just finished Ch. The Unrest...

This was a more personal chapter, taking on the five Shakley siblings..."

(view spoiler)[Yes I was also annoyed the the Forest's got the water meadows in the end. I understood why Margaret did it... just another example of her putting her family before anything else. But its still annoying that everything always seems to work out for the Forest family despite the fact none of them deserve it. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Girl, you are preaching to the quire! The Forest folks are obviously smart, but vicious, while with some exceptions, the Shokleys seem to be usually good hearted and well meaning, but not always too bright... This is even more pronounced in the next chapter, The Calm, about Adam Shokley mostly. It is not that he is not smart, but he processes things slowly, and others, mainly the Forests, take advantage of that... Well, a Williams as well... Thank goodness for the Masons showing up again. Loved the little Mason and his sister, and how much he loved her! I guess it all has to do a lot with the values the family upholds, because the Masons always believed in hard work, and they have stuck with it through the generations... The Williams-Forest clan teach their kids to cheat their way through life, and this is what they get... The Shokleys have the thing about honor, and that gets them more in trouble than anything else... And the Roman family descendants tend to stick with the law enforcement, as in clerical, not police, and finding ways to profit from it...

This was a short chapter, giving us a glimpse of the growth and grandeur of the English cities, the burgeoning of British imperialism, and the war in America, the US war of independence... Also the East India company and other financial scams... Poor Shokleys... As I said, thank goodness for the Masons!

[Zaara]

I am very far behind the schedule on this read but still hope to have the book finished by the end of March. I have read only two chapters more.

The Founding
(view spoiler)[
I love his telescopic little preambles. To be honest, I got so caught up in the story of how towns grow and die and all that about aulnages and tallages and usury (how old this anti Semitisim and prejudice in England and how pernicious like some unseen, and politely unmentionable virus) that I forgot all about poor little Mary. aThat dry, documentary-style clinical dissertation was so hard to get thru, and this was one small list of prejudices by one monarch in one country in one slice of time so imagine the scale of the global injustices. And also condoned by the church. How much harm and hypocrisy is done in the name of religion. I’ll never forget one of the chapters in London that had a bishop who also secretly owned half the brothels at portside. Never forgot the ridiculousness of that. @Choko the Founding was a very difficult chapter for me too personally so *hugs* for you, wonderful soul.

2. We are so lucky to live in times where our lives are just the products of our own decicions. In feudal societies like these, even knights with land and prestige like Jocelin etc were powerless to control the tides of their destiny or alter the course of their own story. The state, the church and society were in everything. Someone else’s ego (Godefroi and Jocelin) and Osmund’s life was changed forever, in one conversation.

3. I also actually looked up the different kinds of loom and watched a couple YouTube vids, that was a fascinating little paragraph and I love little throwaway nuggets like that which he includes which have absolutely nothing to do with the main sweep of the story but he keeps them anyway.

4. This atte Brigge family are continuing in the Tep-Taku ways…

5. I didn’t know Peverel was an actual old English name used by JKR in Harry Potter.

6. I loved the cameo of Nicholas of Ely and his meeting to talk shop with Osmund and Osmund’s vicious little “audition” to enter the guild.

7. Great point, @Hay, about Peter and Alicia!!! I had these feelings but couldn’t put them in words and you did……..

8. @Ron, damn right about the meadow + God wouldn’t care. Also, never liked Cristina either (she and her husband suit each other, no?) and btw found Osmund’s journey thru the seven sins a bit clunky and forced into the framework of the story, but the descriptions of his stubborn and testy old age were absolutely spot on, I felt. These scenes were also very hard to get thru.

9. What happened to Aaron and the small party of refugees, horrible! Also btw casts Thomas Aquinas in a whole new light. I tended to be respectful of classical philosophers and those who leave an abiding legacy but how can this be on the conscience of humanity and we still carry on with our antediluvian systems of governance? Re penultimate para of Post 118: Also how simple and dignified and sensible were Aaron’s last discussions with Mary. It was a strong scene and a very good choice to make the conversation all about the money (because Edward 1 did squeeze and exploit them at all the levels and then like she said, pulled the Church card on them) but actually the point being made was about the ignorance. I am simultaneously reading Bill Bryson’s very loveable Notes on a Small Island, and thinking on such bases was this great kingdom made.
(hide spoiler)]

3.5 stars. Favourite scenes: Chapter preamble, conversations between Nicholas + Osmund and Aaron + Mary, Osmund’s get back atcha audition for the mason’s guild, small aside on looms and fulling.

[Zaara]

Choko wrote: "Veronica, that did happen, and yes, he is a mason. But it is worth the read ..."

Veronica wrote: "Pillars...I think I started that one a few years ago but put it away fairly early, I wanna say. [spoilers removed] I had to roll my eyes and set the book aside, never picked it up again. I actually..."

Yea but Veronica please give it another chance because the rest of the book is nothing like the opener (I think it was just the lead up to the curse or whatever framing device he chose) xcuz those were the times of the cheesy and sales-y 80s prologues where you begin with exciting (sex-y or action-y) sequence and then cut to “boy on farm”…I read it a very long time ago (one of the very few Oprah’s book club picks I have read bcuz I got caught in the passing draft of her bonhomous upsell) and I’m not saying the women have it easy because those were the times but the most of it is very like the construction portions of the chapter the Henge which we all loved...and I promise the book does have strong and unconventional female lead + Follett’s love for the subject shines thru as does the depth and maturity of his research. Please Ron, read with us. :) MC isnt the dude in the prologue anyhoo.

[Zaara]

The Death
I’m so sorry everyone, most of this chapter is a complete blur. I know I read it and recently + I also made some notes but my handwriting in this instance is completely unintelligible and my memory irritatingly yields absolutely nothing in the Shallan-Jalan Kendeth ways.

(view spoiler)[
I liked the song and the lady with white hair and it was nice to see a picture of quiet conjugal felicity in medieval times. I know I’ve read much more rounded accounts of the plague… Pillars of the Earth being one example. I liked the small farming accounts table and the old reckonings and computations of Peas, Oats, Vetch, drage etc. Also I felt bad for poor Agnes, she did good by them but they will hate and resent her for it. They needed the news but it was sad that poor Nicholas had to die merely because of the ignorance of the times and his own carelessness. I had a small little mental picture of his skeleton being found decades later in Quasimodo ways…
(hide spoiler)]

3 stars and all I remember already listed. I read no more and am hoelessly behind. I’ll try and read The Rose tonight.

[Choko]

Zaara!!! So glad you are back with us!!! ❤️

Love everything you said! And agree:) Most of all, take your time and don't burn yourself out! Everyone needs breaks here and there. We will catch up no matter what:)

[Hailee]

The Calm

(view spoiler)[Such a shame Samuel lost what was left of the Shockley wealth and that they were even further reduced, which is the opposite of what I wanted to see.

To be honest I thought Adam's initial desire to be a soldier was fairly shallow. He seemed more bothered about the uniform than anything else but I suppose he needed to make his living somehow and he did well despite the odds being stacked against him.

Urgh hunting tigers... disgusting!!!!

As many times as I've heard the phrase 'the Black Hole of Calcutta' I've never known how the phrase originated. What a horrible story! It is exactly these little educational tidbits that love best in these books though.

I do like that a lot of the story takes place outside of Sarum, it changes things up a bit and gives the reader a bit of an idea on what is going on in the wider world.

So the miz-maze has come up again. I think it was found in an overgrown stage in the previous chapter as well. The mention of it actually reminded me about another object that keeps cropping up; Akun's statue. Since the spire fell down a few chapters ago I wonder if the statue got destroyed... I'm really hoping not but it hasn't been mentioned in ages.

The catching of the highwayman was a cool subplot. Although there was tragic irony in the fact that in being the grandson of the child born to Susan Mason and George Forest he was caught by his grandmothers ancestors and condemned to death by his grandfathers. I'm glad he got a reprieve, although what his fate turned out to be in service we might never know.

Any mention of the window tax in books always makes me laugh. it was sooo ridiculous. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐🌠

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "Girl, you are preaching to the quire! The Forest folks are obviously smart, but vicious, while with some exceptions, the Shokleys seem to be usually good hearted and well meaning, but not always to..."

Yes the Mason's really were a godsend to Adam in this chapter!

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: "I am very far behind the schedule on this read but still hope to have the book finished by the end of March. I have read only two chapters more..."

No problem Zaara just take it at a pace you'll enjoy. It's mood read March after all 😉

On that note I'm going to reply to your message about everything this afternoon but if you see this before that I'm happy to drop everything and start RW&RB tomorrow.

[Choko]

Just finished Bony...

The year it starts is 1803, so we are getting close to the end... The Shokleys are still the main characters, but we get a good mix of all the regulars... It is not that Ralph Shokley is wrong, it is that he doesn't think before he speaks and lets his emotions overcome his sense of timing... (view spoiler)[ Francis Shokley has been married to Portious, who just as his Roman ancestors is an unbending stick in the mud. And they have accepted Ralph Shokley and his wife Agnes to live with with them while getting their household together. Ralph is a teacher, but he is extremely liberal, with good cause in my opinion, but has no understanding how his views upset his brother in law. I thought he should have respected his in-laws' home and waited until he moved out to make his stands as loud as he did. I believe everyone has the right to their beliefs, as well as not being subjected to constant confrontations in his own house, particularly by someone who doesn't need to be there .. As I said, I though Portious is a stick in the mud, and I really didn't like that he is everything we today think of as absurd from that generation, the stiff upper lip, all about the family reputation, barely touch your loved ones, G-d forbid you express any love outwardly! But I kind of felt sorry for him. He really was unable to bend or let go. Which of course is a torture for all around him.
I still resent the Forests for being "gentlemen" and still practicing exploitation whenever they can, getting richer and richer... But at least this time around we didn't get too personal with them...
Godfrey, goodness gracious, working as a human scarecrow... How sad was that?! And then was sentenced to transportation to Australia... Now they are going to be the Godfreys of Australia...
The reforms, although very slowly in coming, were very traumatic to Portious and it broke him. I was happy for the Shokleys, because Ralph was a good man, caring for the big picture, but kind of ignoring his own family...
I felt worse of all for the doctor, Barnikell. He was honorable and so in love, just broke my heart. Agnes was very kind to him, and I like her for that... But Ralph definitely took his friendship and Agnes for granted...

I loved the socioeconomic observations of the time, as well as the little overview of the Napoleon wars. He did a whole a lot of damage to the name of democracy and freedom. No wonder there was such a backlash of conservatism after him. Liked seeing the Williams guys on the ship though. That was a bit of a lighter story in the mids of all the rest. (hide spoiler)]

I enjoyed this chapter quite a bit. I hope we get to see everyone back in the next one:)

[Julian]

How is this book? I saw it is available at my public library and wondering if worth joining this BR semi late.

[Choko]

It is interesting, if you like history of how a town developed and changed through different periods of time. I am liking it quite a lot. It is a very good way to tame history, by concentrating it on one point, but also the bigger picture of things happening around and the way they influence the city and its inhabitants...

[Zaara]

Julian wrote: "How is this book? I saw it is available at my public library and wondering if worth joining this BR semi late."

Yes please join, Julian. I'm still reading and everyone will stay on the thread to give us company...

[Zaara]

Hailee wrote: ".... I'm going to reply to your message about everything this afternoon but if you see this before that I'm happy to drop everything and start RW&RB tomorrow."

Noted.

[Hailee]

Julian wrote: "How is this book? I saw it is available at my public library and wondering if worth joining this BR semi late."

Yes we will all remain on this as long as anybody is still reading the book

[Hailee]

Boney

(view spoiler)[Its Ironic that not even Dr Barnikel believes the legend behind his own name.

And Adam Shockley is dead by 1803? But we never get to find out any more about it. That feels like an annoying loose end.

I didn't warm to either Ralph or Canon Porteus. All my sympathy was with their wives. Frances lot so much vitality due to her marriage and Agnes would have been so much happier with Barnikel.

I pitied Peter Wilson when he was first kidnapped and he really appeared deeply committed to his fiancé but then when he returned he wasn't at all bothered that she had married... I found it a bit inconsistent with his previous behaviour and it just confused me.

It was actually quite strange to read about the Napoleonic War from an actual historical perspective rather than through the Temeraire series. I have become so used o thinking of the Napoleonic wars with dragons that it actually shocked me to read about the actual history 😅. And the ship Temeraire that Temeraire the dragon was named after was actually mentioned!

It's sad how low the Godfrey have sunk from where they were originally. In fact apart from the Wilson-Forest's every one has actually sunk in status from what they used to be. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "Just finished Bony...

The year it starts is 1803, so we are getting close to the end... The Shokleys are still the main characters, but we get a good mix of all the regulars... It is not that Ral..."

Oh yes Ralph's support of the reforms was definitely correct but I couldn't warm to him as person as he really took everyone for granted.

[Choko]

I hear you, Hailee. You couldn't warm up to a man who cares more about everything else, but his family... I couldn't relate to any of the males, but I did feel terrible for the Godfrey boy... And I did sympathize with the ladies...

[Zaara]

I read two more chapters and they seemed to be slapdash. The WAR OF THE ROSES DESERVES MORE!!!! Not to mention that little throwaway aside of the Red Rose not even being their symbol until the war was over and just the work of the PR/meme/historian machine....AAAAARGH.

The Rose

(view spoiler)[
1. So the Rose doesn't seem to be any of the chars in the chapter so I'm assuming it were the Lancastrian Rose?

2. I liked the point Veronica made about some kings being this and others being that and that they cannot ever

3. It's so sad to see the Godefroi family's systematic decline after the strong ancestral start they had with Aelstan and Aelfgifu. I like this family and care about their prospects unlike the generations of Wilsons.

4. Chapter seems slapdash and ends abruptly ("But john wilson already had other plans" HUH?) like something more was to have been tacked onto the manuscript in a later draft but since the book was already so huge that both author and editors just forgot. and what happened to Isabella and the poor kid who married Reginald?

(hide spoiler)]

2.5 stars never got beyond a ramble, never addressed topic head on.
Fave scenes: Rambles about Sarum's location having a direct effect on prosperity, all that about the election to the guilds (since I always like reading about governance) which was done before but I liked the framing device, it was as if we were following 4 chars with a moviecam on a particular day and the context broadened from that.
Why did you give this one a 4, @Hailee? Was it just your love for the subject as a whole? I'm familiar with chalk and cheese but I always thought Hob Nobs were uuuhhh...biscuits???

[Zaara]

Journey from Sarum

(view spoiler)[
I love how this chapter sparked anger in different ways in both Veronica and Hay.
Yeah poor little Will Wilson. I hope he has a Dick Whittington ending. At least Lizzie got what she wanted, tho there's a cruel irony in how but for the times it was typical that they all addressed the basic needs to be met, food, clothes and shelter and (only then, if possible) bodily and mental safety, none of which the starving orphan got. I got nothing to add beyond what you guys said cuz this one ended before it began.
(hide spoiler)]

3 stars
Fave scene: Will's scenic goodbye. That part of the morning is always the best. I have a river/lake/backwater thingy nearby too but no swans, unfortunately. lots of ducks, tho and they are so cute.
+ creepy old man walling himself into a room ceremoniously

[Choko]

Zaara, I think the author is using the historical markers to convey the time period, but is only addressing it as much as it affects Sarum itself... But I do agree, I wish there was either more of the relevant history, or more of the families' saga... He is making a compromise in order to have control over this huge period of time he has chosen, but in this case, both components suffer somewhat...

[Hailee]

Empire

(view spoiler)[ So the Shockley branch of the family are thriving even though both sides have forgotten the other. I'm surprised Frances didn't mention them despite being alive for the first 20ish years of Jane's life.

Jane's life seemed to just be one disappointment after the other, all her ambitions seemed to come to nothing. I supposed that must have been the point of this chapter... to illustrate the difficulties and casual cruelty faced by women... especially unmarried ones.

One bright point of the chapter was finding out that Osmund's carvings were finally being restored. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

The Henge II

Not much to say about this chapter since its only 2 pages long but its was interesting to know more about Stonehenge's history.

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

I've finished 🥳🥳

I'll write up my thoughts on The Encampment and The Spire tomorrow.

[Choko]

I just finished Empire as well. As we were talking about before, the name of the chapter only refers to the time of the Crimean war and the East India company, the hight of British imperialism... But apart from being mentioned to give us a time frame, the chapter is actually very intimate, revolving around Jane Shokley and Mr. Portus, as well as a Williams and a Mason. I felt for Jane, despite being kind of sad for Portus... Neither of them (view spoiler)[ ended up with the person they loved and both were lonesome to the end. I was a bit mad at her for falling for the handsome bad boy and not giving a chance to the nerd, but I guess the heart wants what it wants... It just seemed, despite it being not the optimal, it would have been preferable if they had gotten together later on...

Jane's passionate nature was wonderful, but as you said, Hailee, all of her causes came to nought, because of her being an unmarried woman in still very much a male dominated world. She had great arguments both about education, one person one vote, and female voting, but time was not right yet... At least she lived on her own terms, once her uncle passed away, but up until that point he expected her to give her own life completely for his care... That expectation is very telling of how women were looked upon in that era, even when they came from a gentile family... I think that during Victorian times, the families who were a part of the middle class and upper echelon were even more cuffed by those "what a proper lady should do" rules, than the poor and low class women... (hide spoiler)]

I really liked this chapter, maybe because we got more intimate view of her personal life and feelings, despite me not completely agreeing with her.

The Henge was just a note, really... I can't believe he paid only 6600£! At least he gave it to the nation, eventually:)

[Choko]

I also finished. It was very implausible, all those people intermingling at the end, but I guess it was a good way to come full circle. The freedom of the ladies' choice sure went far from when we started... I thought it was a good end to the book, because the whole thing is slices of life from different periods, thus it is only proper to finish it off the same way.

So what are we going to do now? Are we doing another Rutherfurd book in a similar manner? Maybe Paris or Russka? Or China?

[Hailee]

The Encampment & The Spire

(view spoiler)[I do wonder why Patricia and Adam didn't stay together... quite annoying that it is never explored... why even focus on that as a storyline in the Encampment if it just peters off without anything else being explored.

Another thing that has annoyed me is that despite the restoration of the spire being mentioned Akun's statue didn't make one last reappearance.

Funny how everything is coming full circle:
The American branch of the Shockley family returning to Sarum especially since he has no knowledge of his connection to the place. The Wilson's have married into the Forest family and unknowingly recombining their families once again. And the return of the Godfrey family... finally having regained their wealth and social standing.

Another thing that has come full circle is the Mason family's lack of stature and their talent with working with their hands. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter ratings: ⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "I also finished. It was very implausible, all those people intermingling at the end, but I guess it was a good way to come full circle. The freedom of the ladies' choice sure went far from when we ..."

Yeah I suppose it all is quite implausible but it was a good way to try and tie up loose ends.

[Choko]

Hailee, re: Adam. Right? I was expecting at least that (view spoiler)[ maybe she was pregnant or something, but not just ending because of the distance... Kind of weird, if the only point is that she ended up being with a man from each of the three bigger families and they were all pretty good looking and fine... (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "Hailee, re: Adam. Right? I was expecting at least that [spoilers removed]"

Yes exactly. I've notice that Rutherfurd does that sort of thing in both of the books I've read by him; he'll focus on something and then it'll peter off into nothing and is never mentioned again.