Sarum by Edward Rutherfurd [January 4, 2022]

[Hailee]

The Castle

(view spoiler)[I knew that a lot of surnames normally came about by being named after crafts that people specialised in but it was interesting to see it happening.

I actually had to google the term 'villein.' I thought it was the same as villain at first 😂

Poor Godric. He never really stood a chance. The Middle Ages weren't kind to anyone even slightly different to the 'norm' If only Mary had held out one more day.

This chapter and its focus on the dispute between Stephen and Matilda has really put me in the mood to read When Christ and His Saints Slept. It's been on my TBR for ages since the authors work The Sunne In Splendour is one of my favourite books.

I'm presuming the mizmaze mentioned is supposed to be the Breamore Mizmaze, which is apparently still surrounded by Yew trees:



(hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

Veronica wrote: "The Castle

Yes I agree with everything you said (view spoiler)[I also what happened to Mary and her child... did Godric's line continue through him as well as his cousins? I hope so. (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "Just finished The Castle ..."

Oooh yes (view spoiler)[ I really hope that Godric knew that Nicholas and Godefroi were fighting his corner until the very end... although considering his reaction to the dog I feel like he thought that was the only creature who actually cared... which is a depressing thought.

Yes Rutherfurd seems to like to include a family who descendants bring nothing but trouble to the people around them in his books. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Hailee, I am totally in for a BR for When Christ and his Saints Slept!!!

[Veronica]

Choko wrote: "Hailee, I am totally in for a BR for When Christ and his Saints Slept!!!"

Me too! Does it matter what order SKP's books are read?

[Veronica]

Very cool picture of the maze, Hailee, thanks for sharing that. I can picture Godefroi traveling it on his knees.

[Hailee]

A buddy read of WC&HSS sounds fun. I wouldn't be able to fit it in before about mid May though.

EDIT: Ooh and I promised to buddy read Pillars of Earth with Zaara as well which should come first. You're both joining that buddy read as well I believe? But we'll fit WC&HSS in somewhere 😅. Are you interested in WC&HSS Zaara?

Veronica you can read any of her series or her standalones in any order I think. WC&HSS is book 1 of 5 in her Plantagenets series.

[Zaara]

THE CASTLE
Yeesh, I read this chapter ages ago and (then got into Primce of Thorns and) it had completely slipped my mind that I had yet to post notes.

(view spoiler)[
1. Isn’t it funny that a chapter name The Castle (which I had been looking fwd to because I like castles) had nothing much really to do with A CASTLE? and just listed some castles in passing as a sort of ‘inventory of wealth’ as part of one of the three plotlines? Did a small doubletake when I reach the end of the chapter and he just threw in one line there to make it tie back to the title. It made me stop and think when he said (at the start of chapter) the castle was “more terrible than any building that Sarum had seen before” because I’ve always thought of castles as magical and beautiful rather than something terrible but I suppose to most people in those times, they must have been…places of drudgery/servitude and/or death and conquest.
2. Ha, I like this xcz I like sentences with a quiet sting in the ways: “the serene face of a man who is contemplating treachery.”
3. Yea I liked to see how the surnames came about too. I didn’t know that Mason was a norman derivative. Goes to show! Aaaand Edith from the last chapter was sainted. NOIIICE!
4. All this drama and haggling and backstabbing and profiteering between Stephen, his own clergy and Matilda makes you wanna get into something like Bernard Cromwell or some long historical series, no? But *looks at TBR* for now I will definitely control the urge. I liked that section, the camp outside Deivzes and the back n forth negotiations.
5. O boy, :( Godric Body… you know the whole chapter actually had me fearing for the dog? I thought the dog would be taken away or maimed (in the name of lawing) or separated from him somehow and THAT would be the tragedy? I didn’t even think to worry about the man!!! Poor silly girl that Mary, she literally traded gold for beads in the backstabbing of Godric. If only someone had told her that they were brokering a deal but it’s realistic that in a societal construct like this, she’s the last person they’d have thought of telling. I can only imagine how much worse her life of drudgery is going to be, when I think of what she could have had. At least he went (hopefully) knowing he had some real friends, three of them.
6. Thanks for the pictures, Hay… so cool to actually see the maze. O boy, imagine going around that on your knees on a cold and rainy Feb morning!!!
(hide spoiler)]

3 stars. Favourite scene : Richard de Godefroi has an outdoor reading nook and loves to read stories of knights. :-Don’t we all?? I dunno why they call prostitution the oldest profession when storytelling could sit right alonger it and no questions asked.

[Zaara]

Re 77, I'm sorry I must have missed this amid all the posts...
WHOA, and this is Europe NOW in the present day? Why does she stick arnd, Choc? I mean if the person is a fundamentally good person, she can at least think of attempting some sort of platonic relationship but this man will have dried her up inside (in the respect, mostly). I will have set a second empty place setting for the "wife that shoulda been there" and legged it. I’m sure she has her reasons tho but like you, can’t help feeling angry for her.

And also *hugs* I see the Founding has hit you hard, I accidentally glanced at the post and saw the unspoilered bit. I’ve started the chapter but didn’t read your actual post as yet because. We’ll be here SOONISH. I’m so glad you’re back.


Re 107 When have I ever said no? :D
I’m happy we’re starting more histfic BRs. I didn’t even know this group has a historical fiction thread and only saw it recently...
I'd also like to read the Sunne in Splendour.

[Zaara]

Yes Choko and Veronica, we are enjoying this read so much that I really hope we read Pillars together...like she said asap early summer...it's such a good book!

[Veronica]

Pillars...I think I started that one a few years ago but put it away fairly early, I wanna say. (view spoiler)[It was the part where the man at the beginning (a craftsman of some sort - mason, maybe?)...his wife dies and like that same night, or very soon thereafter, he comes across a naked woman in the forest...NAKED...in WINTER...and they have sex. (hide spoiler)] I had to roll my eyes and set the book aside, never picked it up again. I actually think I resold the book to the used bookstore.

[Choko]

Veronica, that did happen, and yes, he is a mason. But it is worth the read ...

[Choko]

Zaara, Re: post 77.. I know, right?! But Romany women are taught that they need to to obey their husbands and that they're lucky to be married. At least he abstain from prostituting her, because that is a very typical way a woman who comes to the marriage "used" is expected to earn for the family, until she can... Just as with most such cultures, it is wonderful and horrible at the same time... I get to be who I am today only because my grandma had the guts to escape when she was 14 to a different tribe, because her parents were about to sell her to be a wife to a 45 year old man... She took her little sister and two brothers and took off. Married for love, which was absolutely unthinkable! She is my hero!

[Choko]

And yes, I am in for every Historical Fiction we decide to read:)

[Veronica]

Finished The Founding

Choko, I hear you. It was tough to read about the treatment of the Jews. It would be easier to read about stuff like that if humanity had evolved to a point where racism and prejudice based on anything other than the character of the individual person was a thing of the past but, sadly, that is not the case. We still live in a society where the unscrupulous engage in fear mongering to separate people into "us" versus "them".

(view spoiler)[I had to put the book down for a day after the part where those asshole boatmen abandoned Aaron and his group, that included children, to drown. I was so mad.

Well, now we know what happened to poor Mary from the last chapter...died in childbirth at 14/15. Sheesh, but life was just an experience in pure misery for too many.

Which brings me to my next point which is the obscene display of wealth by the church and the use of that wealth for things that don't matter a damn. There were so many poor people who were hungry and homeless - or just a good as - and yet instead of using their wealth to help these people, the Church was spending to build overly ornate churches. Now I've seen pictures of the Salisbury Cathedral and it's beautiful but I doubt God cares. Holding church services in a meadow would suit God just fine, I think.

The Wilsons, those pesky descendants, are still around trying to cause trouble. How long is this family going to hold onto a centuries old grievance? It reminds me of a line I just read in another book: He has become something the world has not seen before, a smoldering ember of despair and hatred, surviving only to redress those things which long ago were injustices and mistakes and tragic underestimations, but now are simply facts. I'm glad Osmond spoke up and that King Edward I didn't fall for their lies.

Osmund lusting after a girl who is the same age as his own young daughter is all kinds of yuck. I know it wasn't considered wrong or abnormal for the time but my modern mind balks at it. Christine...didn't like her as a child...didn't like her as an adult.

Joscelin directed so much energy into growing his estates so that he'd leave a solid inheritance to his grandson, Roger, but he failed at teaching him how to manage it responsibly.

Nice little conclusion for Akun's statue. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Veronica, I had a very hard time getting back to the book because of all those emotions, exactly because it was so real, and because there are still people perpetuating those attitudes... And here we are still stating every day that G-d is One for all of us...
Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Eḥad ("Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our G-d, the LORD is One.")
But that is that...

I just finished The Death chapter. Very good recounting of the possible spread of the Bubonic Plague and how it redistributed wealth among the survivors... I still hate the Wilsons, but I have to admire their perseverance. I just can't make myself respect them. I also have a ton of respect for Agnes and her sense of survival too. I am going to wait for you guys to get here and discuss:)

[Choko]

Also, even when we don't have other religions but one, we as people find ways to split that one into other sects, and once again people are ostracized... Makes no sense... A great way (view spoiler)[ to get rid of the Shokleys too...

Also what Wilson did to set up Cecilia Shokley and Powerhouse was so cruel and cunning, I just want to kill him myself... But again, smart... (hide spoiler)]

Good look at how the precursors to Protestantism start getting root in the country...

[Hailee]

The Founding

(view spoiler)[I'm glad we ended up finding out what happened to Mary and the baby. If I'm being brutally honest I think the baby probably had a better life with the mason's than he would have had with Mary. Something tells me she would have been bitter and resentful of the baby had she lived.

Peter's first attempt at a proposal was very immature. I had a feeling he would end up regretting it but I honestly think their marriage was happier for the wait and that he appreciated what he had more for the fact that he lost it first.

I'm glad that Osmund didn't kill Bartholomew, since it would have been a short-lived victory that would have ruined all his prospects. I think his success was revenge enough. Although the apple didn't fall far from the tree where Cristina was concerned. Her prank was cruel and unprovoked. She certainly married into the right family. And I can't say I was that sorry when they were ruined.

I liked Osmund's story and found the building of the Cathedral fascinating. However, I found the whole seven deadly sins being demonstrated in one person a bit gimmicky for my tastes. I'm glad Akun's statue turned up again and that she found a permanent home in the Cathedral. I'm presuming she's there to stay now.

The treatment of the Jewish population was absolutely infuriating!! And so hypocritical. The restrictions on them meant that moneylending was one of the only options they had and because people needed to borrow money they were encouraged to do so but as soon as it came to the issue of repaying that money suddenly the faith card was pulled out. So much for Christian compassion. Mary Shockley was the perfect example of that "as long as you believe what I believe you can have my compassion, otherwise you can quite literally burn in hell and I don't care". Charming 🤬

The death of poor Aaron and his friends was horrendous. That things like this actually happened is sickening. Made even worse by the fact that the persecution keeps happening even to this day. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐🌠

[Choko]

Hailee, I agree with you all the way! And maybe because of all the feelings this chapter provoked, it turned out to be one of the strongest so far!

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "Hailee, I agree with you all the way! And maybe because of all the feelings this chapter provoked, it turned out to be one of the strongest so far!"

Absolutely. It may have covered an infuriating issue but because it brought out such strong emotions in me, that it is worthy of it getting the highest rating so far in my opinion

[Hailee]

Veronica wrote: "Finished The Founding

Choko, I hear you. It was tough to read about the treatment of the Jews. It would be easier to read about stuff like that if humanity had evolved to a point where racism and ..."

Totally agree, its the fact that so little has changed and we know that everything gets worse and there is no justice that this chapter hits so hard.

[Veronica]

Hailee, 100%. (view spoiler)[And you're right about Osmund. He had a much better life than he would've had if his mother had lived. I just feel badly that she had such a miserable life and that her one chance at having a slightly better life of her own (if Godric had lived) was ripped from her. Life was so hard back then.

Excellent point about Mary Shockley. Her attitude made me angry too and you hit the nail on the head as to why. So hypocritical and judgmental. I was also disappointed that Peter never spoke up to her in defense of Aaron. (hide spoiler)]

[Veronica]

Finished The Death. I actually thought this part would be longer.

(view spoiler)[It bugs me that the Wilson family has found success after how nasty they've always been. When you consider how much energy it must take to keep stoking the hatred for the Shockley family over centuries...making sure it gets passed on to every new generation...it's mind boggling. And I think Edward may be the worst of the lot because he pretended to be Stephen Shockley's friend. At least all the other Wilson's before him showed their true colors so you knew where you stood with them.

Sad about Nicholas Mason but at least he went out on his own terms and avoided any prolonged suffering. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Agree, Veronica! That pissed me off too...

Which leads me to the next chapter, very short and not too personal...

The Roses, which is weird, because the war between the Roses is barely mentioned, but I think the author is using it as to frame the time period.

Honestly, I am getting kind of tired from the constant villainy of the Wilsons... The author is making a strong statement about nurture overcoming nature. Those young Wilsons are raised with hatreds in their hearts for some of the other families, and with a school of thought about making money and screwing other people over by any means necessary, the nastier the better... As I said, I am hoping that at one point that family takes a tern and become more human, some sort of goodness shows up...

In this chapter I feel (view spoiler)[ terrible for the young and precocious daughter of the butcher, who gets settled with the Wilsons' son... And she "knows she will not be happy"... My heart went out to her ..

The rest is local politics, the slow efforts of the burgess to establish themselves and lower the powers of the aristocracy... But this should be a battle going on pretty much until the end of the book, I am guessing...

I feel for the new Godfreys , Gentlemen... They are still living off of the idea of their superiority just because of their status, but a lot of the younger folks in the family don't seem to mature for a long time, so they come off as lazy and inept... I hate seeing their slow and painful decline... And we didn't get to see much of the Masons or the Porters.... (hide spoiler)]

[Veronica]

Yes, exactly! Surely there has to be at least one decent person to come out of that family!

[Veronica]

Finished The Rose...

Short chapter, comparatively speaking. It is starting to get annoying that the author keeps sticking to the idea that there is not any significant change in characteristics among family member through the generations. (view spoiler)[Not every member of the Wilson family is going to be great and clever in managing the businesses. Not every member of the Godefroi/Godfrey family is going to be as clueless as to how to improve their lot, or at least how to prevent further decline. Heck, the monarchy shows more variation. Some kings are strong and wise while others are weak and make really poor choices. That's how life works so it's strange and annoying that the author is choosing to not show this same, natural variation in the main families of the book.

I felt badly for the butcher's daughter, too. Especially with what the Wilson boy said about knowing how to keep her under control. I'm sure he'll use violence. It's awful that her father "sold" her to him. He's rich himself so it's not like his family needed the money. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Veronica, exactly!!! For both the variations in family lines and the butcher's daughter...
Also, the one thing that actually really stuck with me is that when the father of the current King married the French princess, the daughter of The Mad King of France, is when a definite madness started being passed down generationally in the royal line... Very interesting....

[Hailee]

The Death

I wrote this in my draft notes but never got around to posting it before I proved or disproved my theory:

(view spoiler)[Ok I'm only 2 paragraphs into The Death but I have a confident theory that I want to write down before I find out if I'm right or not.

Rutherfurd is making the "passenger and his small companion" sound human but given the name of the chapter and the date it begins I'm guessing the passenger and his companion are a rat and a flea.

I was pleased with myself when I was right lol. (hide spoiler)]

The rest of the chapter:
(view spoiler)[I never thought of the Bubonic Plague as having outbreaks as recently as the 1970s!! Though to be honest I was only disappointed that the Black Death portion of this chapter seemed to end quite quickly since that period of history has always interested me.

Godefroi at least took the outbreak seriously early on. Not that their precautions did that much good in the end.

The Wilson's got their revenge on the Shockley's in this chapter and didn't seem to care about the collateral damage. It's annoying that Walter at least didn't get his comeuppance. However I am glad that the worst of the feud seems to be at an end.

Agnes was a strong woman and she had to make some hard choices that ended up seeing the majority of her family through the plague relatively unscathed, (the first time anyway, she probably would have got through the 2nd one if Walter Wilson hadn't interfered). It was just a shame about Nicholas but to be honest I don't think she would have been able to hold everyone else in the hut without Nicholas keeping them up to date on how bad things were in town. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "I just finished The Death chapter. Very good recounting of the possible spread of the Bubonic Plague and how it redistributed wealth among the survivors... I still hate the Wilsons, but I have to admire their perseverance. ."

Choko I agree. The fact that they held this grudge for several hundred years demonstrates their perseverance but yeah nothing much to admire in that family so far.

EDIT: haha I have just read your comments on this chapter Veronica and see you said pretty much the same thing.

[Choko]

Hailee, all good observations:) This was a very good chapter...

[Hailee]

The Rose

(view spoiler)[So Bishop Ergham actually existed! And he actually the one who commissioned the clock in the Cathedral. That's really interesting.

I also didn't know that the red rose wasn't an emblem for Lancaster until after the War of the Roses was over!! My whole life has been a lie 😅

Huh so that is where the saying 'as like as chalk and cheese' comes from, I say that all the time: https://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Phras...

Ok so I didn't really get to invested in the character's this chapter. Feels like we barely met them but I learned a few interesting things and that can often be the best parts of Rutherfurd's books so I really did like this chapter . (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "Veronica, exactly!!! For both the variations in family lines and the butcher's daughter...
Also, the one thing that actually really stuck with me is that when the father of the current King marrie..."

Yes to be honest the fate of the butcher's daughter is the only thing that made an impression on me. The rest was all very "in character" for the family ancestry that Rutherfurd has developed.

[Choko]

Hailee, hahaha! That link with the "cheesy" sayings is awesome! The thing about the red Rose in the War of the Roses totally surprised me as well. This is why we read these books though, isn't it, so we learn something new:)

[Veronica]

I've never heard that chalk and cheese saying. Is it a European thing? I'm in the States.

[Veronica]

Finished Journey From Sarum...

Super short chapter and not much going on. (view spoiler)[We do get confirmation that the butcher's daughter from last chapter had a miserable life. I HATE that the Wilsons, now self-styled as Forest clan, continue to prosper and have now taken over the Godefroi's old manor house. The latest, Robert, is a spouse and child abuser. I was hoping the big storm at the end would see lightning hit his house and businesses and burn them all the ground. And his turning out his poor, orphaned cousin is just the latest low character moment. The Wilson boy (don't recall his name and don't have the book with me right now; Walter??) seemed like maybe he was cut from different cloth than the rest of the loathsome Wilson/Forest branch of the family.

How is it that the Wilson clan has passed on their hate for generations but Benedict Mason doesn't know that his ancestor was responsible for much of the masonry work in the cathedral? Seems like that would be a point of pride for a modest family and something that would be passed on. (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Journey From Sarum

(view spoiler)[So like we suspected Robert Forest does beat his wife. I hate that society views it as his 'right' to beat his family if he chooses to. Poor Lizzie though. It really is tragically ironic that she got everything she thought she wanted but at such a cost. And now even her own children are turning on her, presumably to protect themselves. I would really have liked to find out if she ever found the courage to escape.

Urgh everyone always has to slip in the whole "deformed Richard" bit when talking about Richard III. Bloody Shakespeare has a lot to answer for 🤬. I suppose he could just be referring to his scoliosis rather than the humpback that never existed but I'm sensitive to any possibility of him being slandered 😅.

It's a shame that not even Osmund Mason's own ancestors remember his contributions to the Cathedral.

I'm curious to know what became of Will Wilson. Finally a branch of the Wilson family that has broken free of the stereotype Rutherfurd has created. I hope he finds success in London. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "Hailee, hahaha! That link with the "cheesy" sayings is awesome! The thing about the red Rose in the War of the Roses totally surprised me as well. This is why we read these books though, isn't it, ..."

Definitely!! These little titbits of knowledge are often the best parts of the book for me.

[Hailee]

Veronica wrote: "I've never heard that chalk and cheese saying. Is it a European thing? I'm in the States."

I think since it originated from Wiltshire in the UK its logical to presume it just hasn't travelled as far as the US. Its a very common saying in the UK but I'm not even sure if its used in wider Europe.

[Hailee]

Veronica wrote: "Finished Journey From Sarum...

Super short chapter and not much going on. We do ..."

(view spoiler)[We've written pretty similar points about this chapter. I agree seeing Robert get his comeuppance would have been satisfying but then again he probably would have only ended up taking it out on his poor wife.

You raise a good point about the Mason's. It really should have been knowledge that was passed down. Just think how many centuries the Shockley/Wilson feud lasted, all by the bad feeling being passed down the generations. But the Mason's couldn't pass down the simple story of Osmund... very weird. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Journey From Sarum was so short, almost jarringly so, after the more extensive chapters... As you ladies already said, what made most impression was poor Lizzy... My heart broke for such a promising young girl turning into a bitter, hurt woman because of those Wilson-Forest people! My one hope for that family is whatever comes out of William, who took off for London. The rest, I am sad because it seems everything that I found good in the town of Salisbury seems to be changing and not for the better... I will continue reading the next chapter in hopes for something more uplifting...

[Veronica]

Hailee wrote: "I think since it originated from Wiltshire in the UK its logical to presume it just hasn't travelled as far as the US. Its a very common saying in the UK but I'm not even sure if its used in wider Europe."

What does it mean? I don't recall how or where it was used in the book.

[Veronica]

Oh! And I totally forgot about how the Godfrey family! (view spoiler)[They've fallen so far and the whole thing about Eustace becoming a hermit...I never knew there was a whole ritual for it. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

The New World...

Talk about the Godfreys and their fall from grace... Wow! I just didn't expect it to go that far...

(view spoiler)[ Shokley bugged the heck out of me this whole chapter, with his indecisiveness - I was Catholic, but now I am not, but I pretend I am because I want to get the girl, then I don't feel I am, then I am sure am not, then I pretend to be again, then I am not... Gghhhrrr! Wanted to strangle him! Take a stand one way or the other at least in your own mind and stop torturing your poor wife!!! I am not saying she was right to take all those money and donate them to the Catholic Queen in waiting, but at least she had a conviction and was true to herself...

Agnes Mason! Wow! Another cold, hard woman. I felt for her wanting to be a mother, but she suffered from being too hard set in her way, to make poor Mason take out the beautiful stained glass from the cathedral, which was donated by his grandfather... This was some type of cruel in my opinion. And I get it, I understand the whole thing about idolatry and how all of that was seen as a Papal luxury and almost slavish love for the Roman ways, but why couldn't they just look at it as work of art and do what they had done with the Dooms painting, just white-wash it over with paint. This is what the Ottomans did in Aya Sophia, when they took it over and painted over the Mosaic and Frescos, thus sealing the art underneath, actually preserving it, if ever comes time they choose to uncover it...
She stayed to take care of the babies of her husband's brother, and since she suspected that it was her husband's fault for not having children of her own, she totally stood by when Peter Mason admitted to being a protestant and got burned for it...

Which leads me to Calvinism. The predominant philosophy on which The United States of America was created... Predestination. Some are chosen some are not. Drives me crazy!!!! It totally takes away the free choice and what circumstances mean to the person and his growth or stagnation... The best apologetics for slavery. I hate that whole thing, but it is so steeped in American history and culture... I get totally pissed...

But let's get past that... Mary Tutor's rain was harsh for the protestants, and she made a terrible choice, if she really was given a choice, in a husband for the time... The political intriguing around those Tutors was horrible for all around them... You could be set comfortably and in the next moment you could be dead... It is interesting that out of the 250 - 300 people who were burned for their Faith, so many were in Salisbury... And it also says something about the strength of the Protestant lobby, because they vilified Mary to a legendary infamy, while all other kings and queens did very similar acts, but never achieved the same amount of enmity by the people.

The Forest Wilsons.... Gghhhrrr!!!! They are still totally horrible, but I was very pissed that now they claim the Godfreys' heritage!!! I wanted to scream when they faked those documents and made their new Coat of Arms... Soooo angry!!! And found a way to screw with the Shokleys again, of course. He never got to see a penny of his investment in the New World...

I am glad that the tolerable Wilson part of the clan ended up with Nelly Godfrey... I hope they come out with some decent offspring, despite neither one of them not really knowing their roots...

I liked that the young Mooney, despite being a Catholic at the time when they had the upper hand, wanted to save Peter Mason from burning. He seemed like a nice guy, which was exactly the opposite of Abigail. Nelly sure told her right at the end... (hide spoiler)]

Overall, as much as I disliked most of the folks in the chapter, it was very educational and I liked it quite a lot. :)

[Veronica]

Finished The New World. I'm running a little late in the reading schedule.

Choko, I share most of your thoughts on this chapter.

(view spoiler)[Reading about the Wilson/Forest family is really starting to lessen my enjoyment of the book. I hate seeing them get ahead...and now they're presenting a totally fake lineage!! Ugh!

Wow, the original Godefroi we met (the Knight, can't recall his name at the moment) would be tuning over in his grave if he could see that one of his female descendants is basically a prostitute. All due to the fiscal mismanagement of his male descendants who were more concerned with maintaining a certain lifestyle than they were in managing their money wisely. I'm glad she landed on her feet. Funny that her sons are the ones who come from the Godefroi line, not the Forest fakers.

I was glad to learn that Will Wilson ended up doing well for himself.

Abigail Mason...all I can think is her poor, too-eager-to-please husband deserved a wife who appreciated him. She was far too judgmental and resented her husband because he was not.

The Reformation and the reign of Queen Mary...it just seems so odd to me, the idea that a country's ruler can force a particular religion on its people. (hide spoiler)]

Choko, reading about the fate of Mary Queen of Scots makes me sad to know that whatever (fictional) Lymond does for her protection will come to naught. :-(

[Choko]

I know! Was going to mention that in the other thread, but it is said to see The Little Queen as such a bright and precocious child with so much hope and to know how things end for her ..

[Choko]

Just finished Ch. The Unrest...

This was a more personal chapter, taking on the five Shakley siblings. (view spoiler)[ I loved Margaret, Nathaniel and Samuel... I loved that all five of them were so different from each other. Margaret was the strongest of them all, and her jealous and insecure brother just couldn't let her be, could he .. I wished she had married, even if that had been a Forest, but it wasn't meant to be... She devoted her life to her brothers, and to the farm, which still pissed me off, because it went into Forest/Wilson hands!!! I was so pissed about that. She should have thought of an alternative salutation to keep Samuel out of her zealous Brother's hands.. But she had to think of something on the spot, and I am trying to be understanding... I felt horrible about her oldest brother, inadvertently killing his little brother, not even realizing who he was at first... He just destroyed himself with this act... I was so proud of Margaret for understanding and forgiving him. I had never heard about "the Diggers" in England, one of the first communist experiments... And the fact that this was the time they let Jews back in the country.
The political scene is as always such a mixture of religious prejudices and struggles for power, that is one of my least favorite times politically in the country's history... I hate what that civil war did to all involved. And at the end we end up with George I... What a shame...
But Parliament is the best example for ultimate power corrupts ultimately! Those are the seeds for the current political picture in the US... I hate it! (hide spoiler)]
Overall, I really enjoyed this chapter and hope things get better for the Shakleys as we are getting closer to the end... And I want more information about the Masons and the Godfreys...

[Hailee]

I too am running a bit behind in the schedule. I'll prioritize this book this week so I can get back on track.

The New World

(view spoiler)[It was such a tragedy that all that beautiful craftmanship in the Cathedral was destroyed. Practically criminal.

So much of the drama in this chapter was solely because of religious intolerance. The battles between two forms of the same religion has always seemed particularly ridiculous to me. Why they couldn't just believe what they wanted and leave others to do the same. I think the way Elizabeth I tried to run things was they best compromise but even that wasn't good enough so some.

And why are Rutherfurd's most devout Christians always the most unforgiving and intolerant characters in the book. Abigail was a prime example of this.

I'm really glad we found out the fate of Will Wilson. He made a better life for himself and his descendants. Finally a worthy branch of the Wilson family, never thought it would happen.

I'm still confused about the whole Peter Mason storyline... (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

Veronica wrote: "What does it mean? I don't recall how or where it was used in the book."

Sorry I completely missed seeing this question till now. The phrase "like chalk and cheese" is just used to refer to two people that are complete opposites or incompatible in some way.

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "The New World...

Talk about the Godfreys and their fall from grace... Wow! I just didn't expect it to go that far...
.."

Yes I agree with everything you said, especially the whole fake coat of arms/family history thing, that annoyed me too. I expect British history is full of this kind of thing which makes me sad really

[Hailee]

The Unrest

I did find it interesting to follow the Shockley's so closely in this chapter.

(view spoiler)[Obediah was dispicable, he was the worst kind of person especially if the have any kind of power. He was resentful and proud. And determined to force his own beliefs on people and seeing anyone who doesn't share them as a lesser person. I'm relieved Samuel saw through him before it was too late.

And poor Nethaniel and Edmund what a sad ending for both of them. The war really tore their family apart.

Margaret was obviously my favourite. She was a really strong woman. And loyal to her family before anything else including politics.

Wasn't Aaron an amazing character? Despite the risk to himself he was determined to do the right thing even though the people involved were relative strangers. He was a real hero. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐