Sarum by Edward Rutherfurd [January 4, 2022]

[Zaara]

The Barrow



(view spoiler)[
1. “For in Britiain, cut off by the sea from these developments, it was still the time of the hunter.” Shows how much of history depends on geography, innit? Down even to things like apparel and cuisine.

2. I see you liked Hwll’s song, surviving the centuries, Ron…now Krona (*laughs* @ Krona I ) coming down the river in his boats with the animals apair and keeping them in his house (and everyone in the hunter-gatherer commune marveling at this)..makes you wonder whether this were not the ACTUAL beginnings of the tale that got morphed over the ages to Noah’ Ark??

3. Aaah the first market in Sarum…yeah Hay, the foresight that Krona and Magri had…is rare and so unexpected in prehistoric man where bloodlusts ran high, that they would think this far ahead to a merging of the peoples, to the absolving of petty revenges….

4. I don’t have many notes for this chapter, except that it was enjoyable…yea for a second I did wonder WTF but then there’s the title of the next chapter and he says this was the crude bluestone henge BEFORE the sarsens came and its construction was suddenly stopped…and then he abruptly cuts the chapter there it’s almost as if he wants you to feel like that… my note at the end of the chapter reads: “And then he just stops - HUH? 2245” (the 2245 is because I like to timestamp shit)
(hide spoiler)]

3 stars but this was a retrospective rating only because the next chapter blew my mind so much that this one totally paled in comparison. I am sorry to be typing these notes late but due to unexpected mass familial chaos I’m reading faster than I’m able to be online. Also I now got the flu and am now giant leaking membrane of snot. There is not enough Kleenex in the world.

Fave scene, the description of the barrows and Krona I coming to the island. Also let’s all prick holes in the frikkin medicine man…haha!

[Zaara]

Choko wrote: "I started the third chapter a bit, before going to bed... Women have gotten such a raw deal throughout history! This is why I get mad at me. complaining about women having too much power nowadays....."

Veronica wrote: "[spoilers removed]Or it could also just be the author playing soft with how people back then would've likely reacted."

Choko wrote: "It is very interesting, the details! I love that part of the book! But I have to tell you, I was in a bad mood all day after reading that chapter. I was so angry inside and there was no way I could..."

Veronica wrote: "I know! Can you imagine how hard life was back then? I would've curled up and died. I hate the cold, for one thing. lol"

Mm yea absolutely, Choc I too was thinking how much has it really changed and you know what, AND I was even thinking whether I should say that here or not, which goes to show, doesn’t it?
Reptilian brains haven’t changed, not deep down. There are still regressive mindsets out there…only I guess it were now more smooth on top and outwardly.

EDIT: If you guys were this annoyed at the medicine man, it's no wonder that Choc was in a bad mood all day long after reading the next chapter...what with Krona 2 and *yerk* DLuc (who appeared to be not so bad but was WORSE because he were sane and detached from the issue...

[Zaara]

The Henge


(view spoiler)[
1. This chapter is breakneck pacy, I began it only not to fall behind the timetable and then looked up and it was over…wow, how did he do that?


2. This historical obsession with the heirs, nothing much had changed even up until the time of Henry 8, eh? How different this Krona is…why didn’t he just go the Gwilloc route? And Dluc is not much better, look how he saves only the young male priest but when it came to the nineteen girls and Raka and the girl child he was all…”o this were inevitable, it were the will of the gods” and I am glad he failed in his creepy ultimate measurement project, and were relegated to a footnote and an afterthought at the end of the chapter. For some reason he annoyed me more than the medicine man. the medicine man was hungry for power, he was crude and greedy and cunning. His level of evil was simplistic.
Dluc had an evolved mind, he had the ear of the king, he had the power and the means. Don’t laugh at me but I hated the killing of the animals too. Why kill swans wtf…


3. I actually feel really sorry for Katesh. She was what, 13 when she was married so 16 poor kid when she had her brief summer of indiscretion and who can blame her for being attracted to someone who actually took the trouble to get to know her, and it’s not like Nooma was in love with HER for her (only what she brung him) or he would not have replaced her so easily with the slave women…I was sorry for Nooma’s hopes been broken but only for a minute, because his great love was actually his work but yea, he was redeemed partly by his love for the children and his passion for his craft…looks like the cunningness jumped sideways in this case away from the Tep-Taku-Tark line…

4. I too loved the architectural details, every bit. I actually wanted the chapter to have fifty more pages, and at least some diagrams/illustrations…does you anniversary edition have them, Hay? I’m gonna look for a list of documentaries about the Henge and mebbe watch them soonish.
(hide spoiler)]


5 smashing stars. I’ve always been a bit of an Aglophile and have read other building of Stonehenge tomes and none ever quite sat right with me and these were whole books dedicated to the construction. I always internally were like “why do you even bother” and I liked the mystery of it, the unknowableness…I wanted it left alone and not constantly prodded at…but this, he did this AND he wove three other full stories and lives and plethora of chars into less than hundred pages…and completed it…(view spoiler)[ what a panorama...starting from the storm that killed the heirs to the auguries and planning…and ending with the dedication ceremony and in the middle of all that…he added a love story, a succession planning, a wedding ceremony AND EVEN the little note about the stone figure of Akun being found again (reminded me of the bag of coins resurfacing in London…BET you thought of it too!)


Fave scenes: the heirs being killed in the storm, the auguries, the wedding with the corm maiden (because I love all scenes with benign pagan ceremonies/celebration of Abudantia), the planning of the henge, the singing round the campfire, the raising of the lintels, the transport of the sarsens, ok even the creepy calculations and the pacing of the silent priests and their balls of twine and markers. (hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

Veronica wrote: "It was interesting to read about building techniques for Stonehenge. It's amazing to think that men were able to do that without any of the modern machines that we have now. I always wondered how they were able to lift the heavy lintels so high to set them on top of the uprights."

Ok Ron if you liked this chapter and the construction, planning parts you really have to read the Pillars of the Earth if you haven’t already. It’s pitched exactly like this. Just enough technicality to be really interesting, and lots of human detail. The first book is truly superb and was a standalone novel for decades. Then Follett wrote a second, still okayish, still centered around life in a cathedral town. Then the series went rapidly downhill from there when it stopped being purist and wandered out into English history in general. Now it seems like he is just monetizing on the merit. But the first really is a gem. I’ll join anyone for a Pillars reread ANYTIME…
Choko, Scott and I had read up until the third book before I felt the series had gotten diluted. But Pillars...*chef's kiss*

[Zaara]

Hailee wrote: "Choko wrote: "Hedge Ch. [spoilers removed]"

I completely agree this chapter, despite its rage inducing aspects was definitely very interesting and I would have loved to see more about Nooma and hi..."

Re Nooma and his kids after Katesh's death...you know what, Hay? As a small indulgence, I wrote an extrapolative story ending for you. Enjoy! Mind, it don't end prettily....

(view spoiler)[
I think he will have loved them "Unconditionally" when they were kids but always secretly "congratulating" himself on his own greatness and magnanimity for keeping the girl as a daughter.

Then once the girl grew up a bit (and looked like either the mother or father he will have grown bitter) and focused on the son's development and building him up into another "little mason"...
Perhaps he will have married agn/bought another slave girl and stepmothers in those days...with property matters at stake...Katesh's girl will have had a Cinderella existence or dealt with in marriage as poor Katesh herself was....that's what I think will have happened.

Or perhaps because he is a bitter, twisted, clever little man...he will have arranged an advantageous (to him) marriage for her himself. I can't forget poor Tark being crushed by a stone after literally saving Nooma his ass from the priests, quartermastering for him and helping him achieve the impossible task...

I'm sorry if you will have preferred a more flowers and rainbows version. But >:D this is the Sarum Way
(hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: "Re Nooma and his kids after Katesh's death...you know what, Hay? As a small indulgence, I wrote an extrapolative story ending for you. Enjoy! Mind, it don't end prettily...."

(view spoiler)[As sad as it is to say I totally agree. The thought had already crossed my mind that when Pia lost her stars in her eyes adoration of him that all baby's have for parents who are kind and pay attention to them that he would start to love her less himself. And your scenario of events makes total sense. Still sad though... maybe I'll just put that aside and pretend that she stayed a daddy's girl for the rest of her life 😄 (unlikely as it is) (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Zaara!!! Long time no see, my friend! So glad to be reading with you again:)))

I agree with pretty much all of your notes and particularly about The Pillars of Earth. I actually enjoyed the whole series, but even there women had it rough... G-d forbid one fell in love with a man! Its all about survival, continuation of the species, and material advancement of the groom and political interest of the family... Love was never an option, thus usually becoming a problem when the girl child became a woman. I always think about the troubadours and the actual concept of romantic love not even entertaining the vernacular until the 12-13th century. And it was always associated with a man lusting after another man's wife. There is such a thing as progress, but darn it, it is so slow and the bad habits are so deeply ingrained in our society... After all, women just started demanding some autonomous existence in the 18th century with a marginal success. I still have hope, despite the flashes of nostalgia I here from men about the good old days...

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: "It is so nice to see this book is written by a Salisbury boy…from the start, this feels different from the way he began London, no Hay? There is an immediacy in the flavour of his writing that speaks of a long, familiar love and having actually walked in these places… ..."

Yes this is true. I think its also different because Sarum is his debut novel and he had 10 years more writing experience when London was published. But the love he has for this part of the world does shine through, that's obviously why he chose this particular area to write about first.

(view spoiler)[I agree that other books will probably have other distinctive body parts used to denote particular generations of the same family. Skulls, noses lips and ears will definitely feature. It might make a fun game to guess the body part in the next Rutherfurd we decide to tackle 😄 (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: "Re the corn thing, yea he said in the preface that he used corn “in its traditional English meaning” more as a normative for all cereals and not maize. I didnt even think to check the website...uhh."

We must have different prologues in our editions as mine doesn't mention the corn thing.

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: "does you anniversary edition have them, Hay? "

Unfortunately not. I have a couple of maps of the area and a family tree and that's it. They would have been a cool addition to the anniversary edition though

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: " The Henge"

(view spoiler)[ Yes the more I think about Nooma the less sorry for him I feel. Yes he may not have been cruel to her but he judged her on her appearance just as much as she did him but he doesn't have the excuse of being a child on his side. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

And the more I think about the priest in Henge, the more I think that, as Z said, he was sane, so he carries the true responsibility of the deaths of those people and animals... And goodness gracious, all those animals!!! I am with you, my heart broke for them too!

[Veronica]

Zaara wrote: "I’m so happy to see both of you here…welcome back, Ron…where HAVE you been? How’re The 4? Hi Choko. I had been thinking of you…it’s been so long since we all read together, it’s great to start the first read of the year this way.."

I've been struggling with a two year reading slump. It was kind of already starting when the first wave of COVID got really bad. I work in healthcare so I just didn't have the mental bandwidth to do much reading. I'm very happy to be back and getting my mojo back as well.

[Choko]

V, I am glad we both have had the strength to persevere and are back ❤️

Just finished Ch. 5, Twilight. I didn't have a particular emotional attachment to any of the characters, but I did experience the sadness of loss the author was trying to convey. It is all about the ending of a period and the beginning of another. I did enjoy the story about the different types of Christianity at the time, and as always when it comes to it and the different heresies, I think about the restrictions we humans put on our own minds. We make life so much more difficult on ourselves than it needs to be, it is staggering! I am watching out for your thoughts:)

[Veronica]

Choko wrote: "V, I am glad we both have had the strength to persevere and are back ❤️

Absolutely!

[Veronica]

I'm still in the Sorviodunum part.

(view spoiler)[I kept hoping that somehow Boudicca would triumph this time and we'd get a different ending than the one granted to us by history.

Poor Porteus. He suffers from a having a conscience during a time when such a thing was not considered a virtue. I don't trust his pal, Marcus, who I'm pretty sure has designs on Lydia. (hide spoiler)]

Someone's always invading someone else. It's a never-ending cycle.

[Choko]

That is the sad part. Those of us who actually read history realize that and the tremendous losses for all humanity, but there are those who have no idea and no wish to know, who feel empowered by their ignorance and are gun hoe for another war at all times...

[Zaara]

SORVIODUNUM :D ok I cant imagine how did it get from this to Salisbury? And I bet the book will show us the path…so I’m interested for that…


(view spoiler)[
1. “In order to understand the events that were now about to take place in the north….it is necessary to go back some way in time.”

Hehehehe…he REALLY cares…I love to see this, when people really get passionate about what they’re doing, it is the sweetest. I had a history teacher once…named O Connor… Rutherfurd reminds me of him a bit in how sincere he is.

2. Ok the Noomex dye mix with urine stuff…uuhh how did they even think to create such processes in those days?? It’s not like it’s the first thing that comes to mind as a next step: ok so I wanna make the indigo bluer? Hmmm ok let’s pee in it and see what happem…………..!!???


3. I don’t have too many notes for this chapter but I was very interested in the characters and how their lives MIGHT’ve been, it’s a straightforward enough linear story. Yea you’re right, Ron, smelled the backstab as soon as Markus started asking to see Lydia’s portrait many times and delicately intruding on/backseat directing their courtship/invading the letters proxy the aunt. Re Lydia…but come to think of it, do you think Porteous would ever have been wholly happy with Lydia? The social divide was already so great, she was always more of an aspirational fantasy (COME ON if you are two years engaged and your fantasies are still at O Hyemenae, Hymen, Hymen hehehehe!) + he would have been having to “earn her” and her family the rest of his life; the senator would never have been satisfied and will have cunningly found a way to get rid of him. In the end Lydia will still have ended up with someone like Markus. I disliked the way she behaved during the visit, all looking down on the provinces…made me mad, although it was clear she didn’t want Porteous to know. SHE actually ended up satisfied and where she wanted. The first woman in this book I think who got it made, hah!


4. Re poor Porteous, what a costly thing it is to be naïve, speak your mind and say the wrong thing at the wrong time/place, Seutonius crushed him so neatly…but I actually think that worked out just fine for our guy to be exiled in the provimces with the happy, uncomplicated and raunchy Maeve. Initially I thought her char took a bit of a drastic U turn, huh? So canny and restrained before marriage and then she suddenly she were a bit of a dim, happy ostrich and didn’t even exert herself to understand what he was so restless about/expand her mind/understand Rome/his political aspirations…she were so determinedly fine in the backwaters…so blind to his hankerings after Lydia and then I didn’t even understand the Naomi track except for being surprised that “Naomi” was such an ancient name. It seems very modern to me. Wondered if Maeve she did wrong, if she should’ve learned Roman ways…then I think, smart girl! What if they HAD been able to scrape their way back into the graces of the procurator/governor etc…they’d have been the rest of their lives dancing like puppets at the bidding…and then Maeve would have been the discontent, cribby one, torn between home and Rome…like a selkie happy neither in the water nor out. It had to have happened this way, that he had to pay the price of telling the truth in an inconvenient way, finally let go of all that discontent and find the beauty and the fulfilment where he was. What do you guys think? Could it have gone any other way?


5 . I really liked Porteous but I swear Tositugus is irritating in the first half of the chapter, now his “naivete” is…somehow IRRITATING…whatta shit deal he brokered for himself in the valuations, I dunno why that bothers me…in essence it’s the same blindness as Porteous but only Tosutigus was selfish and grandiose. But had Tosutigus resisted progress he woulda been crushed and thrown out anyway? By backstabbing his chief he prolly saved lives…but the extent of his delusional dreams…WOW! It’s a common enough failing, who being human can say they were not guilty of this fault? Prolly that he was a kid and the little bit of provincial importance he got took his head straight into the clouds? Just don’t get it *smh* but it was wonderful to see how quickly he learned once the blinkers were pulled from his eyes and by the end of the chapter his journey had made him canny enough a provincial politician and even that much better a single father to unobtrusively “set” Maeve’s future, play the selfsame Vespasian and beat him (although at a very small level). I was so happy he got his Roman villa and his stained glass mural and even his offer from Rome…and so true that when you get what you hankered after your whole life you suddenly don’t even want it!!!


6. After thinking I have nothing much to say about this chapter I have one final special note. I love the binary structure how quietly and CUNNINGLY Rutherfurd he done it on the levels…Britain being folded into Rome and a Roman being folded into Celtic life.
(hide spoiler)]


Chapter rating:

3.5 stars shoulda absolutely been 4 but I felt
(view spoiler)[
the Numex and Bro + the Naomi tracks were just randomly thrown in unnecessarily as flavourings + the Christianity was too hastily dealt with, favourite scenes, ya the Boudicca battle was epic + can’t help everytime wishing the Celts weren’t mass butchered like that. I actually also liked the brutal way in which Seutonius eliminated Porteuous, that whole track - I’m very much in the mood for poli intrigue in my reading right now. Maeve/Porteous courtship was beautiful with the whole Celtic+equestrian theme (counting horses :D) + the building of the Bath, actually the whole discussion of how Rome folded in and homgenised farflung parts of the empire was exciting and cerebral. Man, they thought longterm!!! (hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

sorry for the eye twitch, everyone...I misclosed the italics...its fixed now...ooopp!

[Choko]

Zaara, great points!

1. Rutherfurd definitely has a passion for the history of the place! I am sure the hardest thing for him most probably was figuring out what details and stories to cut down or out. When you have done such massive research and have so many details of the time, editing yourself must be hell!

2.Haha! My theory is, the first time someone had an incontinence accident over an indigo cloth and the result was that blue:))) So decided to replicate the results the same way after:):):)

3. Re Lydia and Portheous. You are so totally right! That was a lose-lose proposition from the beginning. And there was bound to be resentment down the road from all sides. And yes, she ended up exactly where she wanted to be:)

4. I am all in for good old political intrigue any time! Loved all that!

Maeve and Naomi (view spoiler)[ I was rooting for Maeve all the way. Yes, she was limited and chose to stay ignorant of the outside world and her husband's aspirations for Rome, but I kind of envy her for that. She has it good, she is happy and she knows it - don't any of us wish we could be that secure and satisfied with what we have through our lives? I personally can't see myself being so little interested in where my husband comes from or what his passions beyond me are, well, I am interested in everything, but I can't judge. She should have tried a bit harder there, but she couldn't see beyond her own feelings of "we are exactly where I want to be". Her transformation into the mother was great for the kids, but I have heard of husbands growing jealous of their wives attention to the kids instead of them, and maybe, since she already lacked in interest towards his everyday thoughts, her diminished attention in the more carnal sense was bound to lead to his dissatisfaction. If they only communicated with each other, things wouldn't have led to a "Naomi".

And we came to my little personal frustration in this chapter. Naomi is a Jewish girl, who is from a Christian sect. Naomi is one of the oldest Hebrew female names in written history. My problem is with European society, and particularly where I grew up, Bulgaria and the Balkans. Because many of the slaves of that time were Jews, being Christian or not, and it was very much accepted that the free men and women of the time could fornicate with their slaves as much as they chose to, a stereotype arouse at the time of the Jewish women being seducers of either sex and ruining "good honest folks'" marriages.... Gghhhrrr! I have lived with that stereotype most of my life and I hate it! Because it prevailed through the ages and this is why I wish Rutherfurd hadn't used a Jewish girl for the big cheating point of the marriage. He could have easily used a Greek Christian slave from that time to bring the first mention of the idea of One G-d and Christianity. I understand why he did it - the idea of the One G-d historically, after Zoroastrianism, is the strongest in the Jews, of which Christianity is a young offshoot. So the single deity concept would be strongest in a Jewish person at the time. And you can't make it more personal but by involving someone intimately with our hero in order to make an impression. I get it, it just touched a sore spot in me, that's all...

However, I loved the way the whole settlement got involved in getting the two adulterers to give it up:):):) (hide spoiler)]

5. I loved the honest way he progressed the character of Tositogus. I was so mad at him at first, but I loved that despite being cheated out of his dreams so much, he never stopped hoping, dreaming or being positive! In his little way, he never gave up and had the choice in the end. He reminded me of small town folks I know all over the world, but they have never been mean-spirited and I love that about them...

6. I think all the chapters so far, and I suspect this will be true for the whole book, has been exactly about that - one culture is established, a second folds them into themselves, both cultures change by taking some of the other's characteristics. The history of our World...

[Zaara]

Choko wrote: "Zaara, great points!

1. Rutherfurd definitely has a passion for the history of the place! I am sure the hardest thing for him most probably was...
...
...
Re Maeve and Naomi
Naomi is one of the oldest Hebrew female names in written history."

Thanks much, Choc dearest. Now see, I didn’t know that… nor did I know that such a stereotype existed… now the Naomi subplot seems a whole lot clearer. This why I love reading in a group so much, such discussions absolutely add to our understanding and enjoyment. Not to mention friends who help you get thru the big books and TBR veterans.

O haha yea, of course everyone was with her all the way but they’ll have watched Maeve grow up from childhood and been recipients of her small kindnesses + all the fealty that’s in the fabric of their culture, no? She were the daughter of the local laird + poor Naomi will have no locus standi nor rights as a foreign import + besides how long will she and Porteous have enjoyed their fanatical and frenetic shaggings of religious transports? She seemed ready enough to give him up immediately and prioritise her religious beliefs. And then there’s the whole Roman attitude towards their slaves and all the stereotypes, as you explained.

Maeve yea for sure she had such a simplistic worldview but she chose her little bubble of contentment and who’s to say that’s the worst decision? She was a quicksilver char, so restrained and smart in the courtship phase then goes into ostrich mode and does the hausfrau thing until her husband gets a mistress and she turns all canny agn in the backstage skulduggeries. I think for chars such as her, they are happy and simple until something brings out another side in them.

[Zaara]

Rosina wrote: "Hi I have had this book forever on my shelf and will read along with you but probably not at the same pace as i have many challenges that I participate in.
Looking forward to this read."

K L wrote: "Ooh, I have this on my Kindle, but the sheer size of it is intimidating. A buddy read may help shift my you-know-what into gear and actually read it! 😶"

@KL and @Rosina, how are you guys getting on with it? Have you started it yet? Are you enjoying it so far?

[Hailee]

Sorviodunum

(view spoiler)[It's such a shame to think of the barrows and Stonehenge, which people put soooo much effort into building, both now being so neglected and forgotten.

I wonder why Druids were forbidden to collect herbs from anywhere but the North side?

It didn't surprise me that Tep's ancestor prioritized saving his own skin rather than report back to his town as to what he had seen. What did surprise me was that he didn't feature in the chapter again at all. I'm guessing he was just mentioned so that the reader knew his family hadn't died out and will reappear in the next chapter or some point afterwards.

Tosutigus' plan to join the Roman's and betray his word was extremely self serving and I thought that the original wisdom of Krona had been watered sown into pretty much none existence and maybe that's true but at the beginning of the chapter I really thought I would grow to hate him but surprisingly but the end of it it was only him and Porteus I that I really warmed to.

Given the Roman's fondness for feeding criminals to lions or forcing them to fight to the death for an audience's entertainment I find the Roman disgust for the Druid's (admittedly horrible) tradition of performing human sacrifice to be a bit hypocritical.

My first instinct about Lydia's and Porteus' relationship turned out to be quite accurate. This is the note I wrote while I was reading 'Porteus' and Lydia's relationship seems to be quite shallow. His infatuation seems to be based on her looks and her "flashes of childish temper" (which is hardly surprising in a 13 year old girl). I'll be amazed if they get as far as marriage. 3 years apart will dramatically alter a 13 year old and it'll probably be a case of out of sight out of mind for her.

Poor Porteus. His honour did him credit but his decision to talk to Suetonius was a serious case of bad timing. If he had waited just a few more days his whole life may have turned out different.

Lydia and Marcus are typical Roman's. They have been taught by Roman society that anything that doesn't fit in with their world view is immediately dismissed as uncivilised. Even Porteus after years living in Sarum still believes this, He was constantly updating things not really to improve their way of life but so that they could become his version of 'civilised'.

Hwell's statue of Akun turned up again!!! Do you think the dwelling Numex found was that of Nooma's, his ancestor since that's the last person we know had possession of the statue? That would be ironic wouldn't it.

Even though Porteus didn't marry Lydia he never really ended up with someone who was any more a soulmate to him that Lydia would have been. Meave's and Porteus' marriage was just as emotionally distant as I imagine his and Lydia's would have become. they were both content to lead pretty much separate lives.

I also appreciated the little allusion to the beginning of the worship of Jesus, Just a blink and you'll miss it mention but it needed to be mentioned as I'm sure the Christian faith will become a major part of the book going forward. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: Not really caring too much about most of the characters means that this only really scrapes ⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

Veronica wrote: "I'm still in the Sorviodunum part.."

RE Boudicca (view spoiler)[I totally agree even knowing exactly how it would end I couldn't help hoping for victory for the rebels. (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: "SORVIODUNUM :D ok I cant imagine how did it get from this to Salisbury? And I bet the book will show us the path…so I’m interested for that ..."

Yes Zaara, definitely some good points there. (view spoiler)[The whole Britain being folded into Rome and a Roman being folded into Celtic life thing hadn't occurred to me but now you've pointed it out it was cleverly done.

Yes both Tosutigus and Maeve went through drastic changes throughout the chapter, but that just made them realistic characters. I personally didn't like him in the beginning and he turned into one of the only characters I liked and Maeve I started off liking and then completely went off halfway through. (hide spoiler)]

[Veronica]

Whew! Finally made it through the Sorviodunum part. (view spoiler)[ I was skipping along quite happily until the part where Porteus married Maeve and then, for some reason, my interest waned. Probably because I knew he was never really all that into her. Oh yeah, the sex was great at first but I never got the impression that he ever truly loved her. She was just the woman who was there. It's like that old Meatloaf song "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad" - I want you, I need you, but there ain't no way I'm ever going to love you.

It seemed kind of an abupt end to the chapter though. And I had wanted Maeve to rain some holy Celtic woman hell down on Porteus for cheating on her.

By the way, how old was Porteus by the time he started the affair with 15 year old Naomi? (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Yeah, at this point I think we have all gotten a bit numb over those men, whatever age they might be, starting sexual affairs with young girls... One thing the current culture at least is trying to fix, and is succeeding vastly, but among my mom's people, in order to get an advantageous marriage, a girl still has to be right after the start of puberty and still a virgin... Makes me kind of sick. I have a friend who turned out not to be a virgin when she got married and her husband makes her set the table always with an extra chair and setting, for the one that was there before him... To shame her:(

Also, it isn't even an affair. Affair would imply that both parties are willing. But how much real choice does a slave girl have???

[Hailee]

Twilight

(view spoiler)[That beginning was quite an unusual style for the beginning of a Rutherfurd chapter, usually he sets the scene for the time period instead of throwing us in the middle of a domestic scene with dialogue.

The Taurobulium is gruesome. I've never heard of that ritual before, but if that's the initiation ceremony don't sign me up for Paganism 😅

I actually grew to despise Petrius. At first I just thought him a bit childish. The sentence 'there was no outlet here for his need to dramatise himself' summed up his childish attention seeking nature neatly. This was backed up by his unoriginal copying of Martinus' dream of 'feed my sheep' that prompted his "conversion". But then didn't listen to Martinus' advise on going to Gaul to study first since that wouldn't gain him the attention he wanted to demonstrate how god "chose" him. To me Petrius was just pathetic, a child in a man's body copying anything around him if he thought it would get him attention.

But what really made me actually go from being irritated by him to despising him was that as soon as he "converted" he immediately went about forcing his beliefs on other people. There was no talking and persuading like Martinus did he just went straight for the bullying tactics. Not to mention his disregard for his mother when he wanted to go off to Ireland which he only changed his mind about when it looked like he would get more excitement staying home.

I felt sorry for Constantius. He wasn't a very strong man, He was very self-pitying and obviously had low self esteem due to the fact he felt guilty about his own laziness. But I think his last stand gave him the feeling of self-worth he had been seeking all his life and is what gave him the courage to face his own death. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐🌠

[Hailee]

Oh btw I forgot to say I updated the schedule (in message 2) for the New Sarum part of the book. If anyone has a problem with the pace let me know and I'll try and adjust it

[Choko]

I totally understand your feelings about Petrius. He was a weak, spoiled brat. The mother was the only character worth her salt in this chapter. Her husband meant well, but obviously he was also weak willed and an alcoholic on top, so not an ideal condition to raise strong children... But yeah, the immediate strong-arm conversions Petrius chose to embark on, I hated it! This is what I hate the most about people who state they belong to a certain religion and have no real education or even rudimentary knowledge about said religion...

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "I totally understand your feelings about Petrius. He was a weak, spoiled brat. The mother was the only character worth her salt in this chapter. Her husband meant well, but obviously he was also we..."

Definitely! The mother and Numincus were the only characters I liked throughout most of the chapter. Yes people who belong to a certain faith is all fine as long as they acknowledge that everyone is free to have their own faith (or not to have) and don't try and force their own beliefs on other people. The fact that there are so many people not willing to do that causes more wars in history than anything else.

[Choko]

My thoughts exactly! If we can only learn to live and let live! My favorite thing when I came to America in 1990 was that there were so many different cultures, people from all over the world, different cuisines, different religions! I loved the differences, just as much as I liked how similar we all are in our very nature. At the end of the day we all want the same things. So I think that those who want to homogenize us are sad and unimaginative people, for whom I can only feel sorry...

[Veronica]

Finished Twilight and can certainly see what you guys are saying about Porteus. He didn't bother me all that much. He strikes me as being typical for his age. At that age people are typically going through different phases and trying on new hats, so to speak, trying to figure out who they are and what their place in the world is. I just see him as being immature and easily swayed by the next strong opinion. Him wanting to be the hero of his own story is also pretty natural for that age of development.

(view spoiler)[I felt for Placidia. A capable woman saddled with two more weak willed men.

I hadn't been paying much attention to the family tree at the front of book so I hadn't made the family connections. Numincus is descended from Noona (the Henge) and Numex (Sorviodunum). Tarquinus is descended from Tep (Journey to Sarum) and Tark (The Henge).

It was cool to see the little statue of Akkun show up again. Now she's a goddess! I wonder where it will turn up next now that Targuinus was banished from the area. (hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

Choko wrote: "My thoughts exactly! If we can only learn to live and let live! My favorite thing when I came to America in 1990 was that there were so many different cultures, people from all over the world, diff..."

This post is just all heart!!!

And now I will go to all the chapter notes....

[Zaara]

TWILIGHT

(view spoiler)[
1. I dunno but that I’d kick at having a name like *snort* Placidia but it suits her, she’s likeable but not very interesting, is she? Nor a very effective mother/wife, doesn’t seem like or perhaps she tried and just got to the stage where she’s all hands off…but tbh I feel bad for her and think what else could she have done? Just quietly competent and in the end dully resigned, however I expected a bit more fire from her towards the end given the rest of her arc than just the chapter ending with “and a darkness fell over all the land”..and I’d have thulped her idiotic son.

2. I didn’t know that Christian burial grounds were laid out like that, east to west…as a distinctive feature. Huh! And I’d like to read and learn more about the emperor Julian and also the Vandals and Visigoths.

3. You reckon Petrus is bringing home more trouble than it’s worth by getting the German merceneries? He is so immature and swings like a pendulum between extremes, it’s really hard to give him any sort of credibility or weight. He’s either all pagan and despises his father or super Christian and celibate for life, after one discussion with a monk? Either firmly committed to going to Ireland as a missionary and in the next moment supercommitted to staying home and defending his lands…wtf, dude? I see we all UNIVERSALLY had this reaction to the git....like we did with the medicine man….

4. Constantius is innefectual but you can’t help feeling sorry for him. All this angst over the state of his soul. I’m glad he died with some agency, feeling useful. I liked what you said Hay about his lack of self esteem leading to worsening the drinking problem.
(hide spoiler)]

3 stars Kinda watery chapter, not bad but not very interesting story or chars. Like sad cold potato soup. Numincus was the only POV I wanted to know more about and he never got more than a couple lines. Placidia just petered out.


Fave scenes:

(view spoiler)[

3. the description of the mosaics and the Pater Noster,
2. the debate between Petrus and his schoolmaster about theism
>:D

#1 the gruesome and barbaric description of the Taurobolium (there is a scene in Rome where they show this and yeah I WAS icked out but it’s really powerful and really gross as a scene and well described…and kinda like how horrorfic experiences and being touched by the macabre really transforming you across some sort of otherwolrdly threshold and then you just think you been touched by the gods...got me thinking is prolly why these rituals across cultures really pushed your limits, both mental and physical and psychological.

You reckon mebbe this is where GRRM got the inspo for Danaerys eating the stallion heart and bathing in its blood???? (hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

THE TWO RIVERFbecause I slavishly followed the schedule...

(view spoiler)[
1. That trial scene!!! O boy, aren’t you glad the justice system has changed??? Imagine knowing the exact value of your life boiled down to a number of coins. I’m kinda fascinated with how old English law has developed, the geography of Temple Bar and so forth from all the lawyers Dickens has written and all the fusty old legal books I grew up arnd. I’m never gonna read a technical law book but reading snippets like this or reading about the history of the systems…

2. When Edith was first introduced, I was thinking that it’s weird how you can find pride lurking in the strangest places and in the weirdest forms but then…poor, earnest and sincere Edith…what else did she have to cling on to? It’s sad that her story went nowhere. In my head, I wrote a fake ending where Osric does NOT die and Edith gets to become the Prioress a few years after Port gifts the abbey with the jewelled cross.

3. Btw for me the Osric track was more affecting than the avenged rape of Port’s wife… poor innocent kid and his dreams and all that wasted talent. Also I felt kinda cheated like it was a dirty trick and the char was introduced just to touch briefly on the topic of illustrated manuscripts and what the monks got up to and then lopped off.

4. How come the laws of King Ine and things like Boethius are lost to the mists of memory? Who even reads such books any more or has an actual rounded classical education? It really does make you a more refined human, I think and sometimes I kinda feel ashamed about the holes in my knowledge tbh tho I have read more of the great classical philosophers than most my peers. However, isn’t it comforting to know that there are philospical consolations to every dark night that the human soul can face? I’m really truly gonna look up this book on Gutenberg.

5.
+

= AELFGIFU!!! I absolutely love how the brothers just count her as one of the boys and the father is secretly so proud at how impossible she is but I dunno how plausible such a family dynamic is...for those times, I mean.

6. Barnikel!!! :D bairn ni kel…. remember Hay there was a Viking descendant named Barnikel in London whose wife owned the pub and was a bit of a madam??? :D now we got the origin story of the ancestors. I love accidental Easter eggs when you read out of order. And I’m happy those kids were returned to Port tho prolly traumatized for the rest of their life….

7. I said it before but I love how these ancient charters and documents were worded as vows, sonorously beautiful and intentional: ok its wordy but there is something just SATISFYING in the words “he shall have and possess and present the aforesaid land to whomsoever he shall choose in all things with free will….” kinda like old wedding vows and the old traditions of the laird being “married” in a ceremony to the land. I like those!

8. Absolute favourite scene: the BANQUET.

(hide spoiler)]
3.5 stars.

Favourite scenes:

(view spoiler)[
1. The banquet and Beowulf and the ring giving,
2. Aelfgifu fight scene,
3. the trial.

Track that I’m sad it ended abruptly : Oscric and the illuminated manuscripts, I’d have liked to see him training at school and learn more about ancient bookbinding process3s. (hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

Veronica wrote: "Whew! Finally made it through the Sorviodunum part. I was skipping along quite happily until the part where Porteus married Maeve and then, for some reason, my interest waned. Probably because I k..."

Hailee wrote: "....and Maeve I started off liking and then completely went off halfway through."

She was a patchy char and I felt like she went thru this drastic hill and valley arc but I feel that’s what made her such an interesting one for us to discuss. But yes, I too liked her Merida-ish equestrian beginnings as the best part of her storyline…then she were a bit of a blithe ostrich...like Ron says...

[Zaara]

Hailee wrote: "Sorviodunum....

....It didn't surprise me that Tep's ancestor prioritized saving his own skin rather than report back to his town as to what he had seen. What did surprise me was that he didn't feature in the chapter again at all. I'm guessing he was just mentioned so that the reader knew his family hadn't died out and will reappear in the next chapter or some point afterwards."

Ahaha, ***** ABSOLUTELY THIS!!!!
And Hay, NB: open after reading The Two Rivers chapter (view spoiler)[
it happened agn with Tostig!!! Where are all these dudes vanishing in all the boats, like some weirdass Bermuda Triangle???

You reckon maybe Rutherfurd intends to have this family return later from the Continent like he did with the banking arm of the Silversleeves clan in London (if I remember right :/) but I feel this second instance was actually a plotting mistake and duplication in his overanxiety he wrote both Taradoc and Tostig as almost identical and replaceable chars.

Still... wouldn’t it be cool if Tep’s clan have been robbign Hwyll’s decendants for generations as a sort of extended beyond the centuries getback??? And they have all these boatfuls of gold on some hidden island and someday one of them shall return all evil Richie Rich and Slytherin Count of Monte Cristo??? :P (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

"Richie Rich and Slytherin Count of Monte Cristo"!!! Hahaha!!!! Perfect!

I also just finished The Two Rivers chapter, and found the trial fascinating. Do you know that here, in the US, this still somewhat applies? My spouse had gotten hurt at work and he had several surgeries to the shoulder, ending with them fusing it and making it unusable for the future. When he sued the company for workers comp, there is a chart of the body, and it shows what percentage each bodily injury takes, all of them in total of 100%. So, since total loss of the use of the shoulder was considered something like 15-20%, there is a set limit of money you can demand. The job of the lawyer on your side is to get the maximum, and the other, to make it to the minimum... When I was reading this trial scene, I was like wow, this is where this comes from!!!

About the gruesomeness of the religious rituals... You know, you might have a point there .. I never really thought about that. I always associated it with birth, it being bloody and messy, and up until couple of centuries ago, a real risk of death for both mother and child... How else could the more primitive peoples express a major change, but through a ritual reminiscent of birth. This is why the mikvah of the Jews, which is a ritual bath of cleaning, which later became the baptism bath for Christians, is so revolutionary, because it only very distantly symbolizes the emergence from the water as a rebirth, without it demanding blood and death... Those old pagan rituals of death did still exist, when you would sacrifice a goat or a sheep in a ritualistic manner, using the blood for marking and the meat to feed the community, never for your own use, but it was only done in thanks for prayers answered, not in supplication for future prayers to be granted... This is something that the Christians, Jews and Muslims still practice in the Balkans. On my name day, on the 6th of May, is one of those set holidays, when you sacrifice a sheep, to thank G-d for another year of His protection over the community... A lot of food and drinking ensues:)))

Bairn ni kel!!! (view spoiler)[ I loved this character! I only wish he had been there when Osric got killed:((( That whole scene was gruesome and heartbreaking!!! What I never understood about the Vikings, supposedly during the summers they were fishermen and farmers, then they will join a raiding party and raid across the seas or down rivers. So why all this random, mindless killing? Those people they robbed were also mostly farmers and fishermen, wouldn't it had made more sense to just rob them, get whatever they wanted from the women, then move on so there will be more for next year's raid? It just doesn't make much sense, logically... Or OK, kill the adult men, but leave the children and the raped women to have something to come back to... Sounds horrible, but logically, this would be more practical. This is why this dude Bairn ni kel, is probably smarter than most...

I am begging to get the rhythm of Mr. Rutherfurd's writing. As great as I find his grasp on history to be, I can see that there are going to be a lot of storylines he is just going to leave hanging... I get it, he is going to stick with just a few, because otherwise his book will never end, but darn it, I get to care about somebody, and all we get is just a snippet with no closure... I am hoping he brings it to some overall good conclusion.

I liked Port and the Fain, and felt horrible for poor Port's wife and the loss of his hands... But what the youngest son did with the skin of the pockmarked Viking, another gruesome tradition!

I love the formal proclamations as well, as you said, in this case sounded like wedding vows:)

The daughter was an awesome character, but as you said, I am not sure how true to the time this character could be.

Tostig, haha! Those dudes of the line sure protect their own hides first and foremost. But you are right, this was kind of redundant... (hide spoiler)]

I enjoyed this chapter, but I need more of the personal experiences of the characters!!!

[Hailee]

The Two Rivers

(view spoiler)[This chapter reminded me of The Last Kingdom, a book I really enjoyed. Zaara knows all about my struggles with having to restart series and The Saxon's Chronicles is yet another series I want to restart and carry on with at some point.

I found the use of the word "tomboy" quite jarring since it didn't seem to fit the time period and when I googled it the internet said that the word originated from the mid 16th century so why a character from the 1st century was using it I don't know.

Aelfwald gives me strong Krona vibes, a wise and fair leader who actually cared about the people he is supposed to look after. And despite my initial worry after their teasing of Edith (which turned out not be be malicious like I had feared) Aelfstan and Aelfgifu are very much like their father. Aelfgifu turned out to be the character I wish Meave had been.

I think Aelfwine got what he deserved. he clearly knew Osric was unwilling (not even going into his age this is a common theme in this book) and had been carefully grooming him. But poor Osric, just when he had plans to escape from Aelfwine he is brutally murdered.... what a shame Barnikel wasn't there as well.

The scene where Aelfstan skinned the Viking who raped Port's wife was very disgusting but very much karma at work.

I'm glad Port got to be a Thane. He struggled so much with the decision on how to use Edith's money but his honour won out and all his other actions showed his true character and he was rewarded for it in the end.

I enjoyed Rutherfurd's explanation for the origin of the Westbry White Horse. And I can't say I was surprised Tostig took off with some of the loot, although I am surprised he didn't take his family with him. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[Hailee]

I'll catch up with the comments I've missed tomorrow as I don't have time right now xx

[Choko]

I also need to restart The Saxon Chronicles, since I kind of dropped off after book 3...

The Tomboy nickname bothered me as well... But I just accepted it...

[Hailee]

Choko wrote: "I also need to restart The Saxon Chronicles, since I kind of dropped off after book 3...

The Tomboy nickname bothered me as well... But I just accepted it..."

You did better than me since I only made it to book 1.

After I looked it up I just accepted it as well I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going mad and the word tomboy didn't actually exist yet.

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: "Ahaha, ***** ABSOLUTELY THIS!!!!
And Hay, NB: open after reading The Two Rivers chapter"

(view spoiler)[It does seem a bit strange that he used the same plot devise in to successive chapters.

Hahahaha your idea is a short story that needs to be written 😆 (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Zaara wrote: "THE TWO RIVERFbecause I slavishly followed the schedule...


6. Barnikel!!! :D bairn ni kel…. remember Hay there was a

OMG (view spoiler)[I did remember when I was reading that there was a family in London who has the same name but I dismissed it as a coincidence like there being two different "Smith" families in separate books. But do you really think they are descendants? That would be cool!! (hide spoiler)]

[Veronica]

Finished Two Rivers

Count me as another one who has to get back to the Saxon Tales series by Bernard Cornwell. I made it up through book four.

(view spoiler)[The whole King Alfred hiding out in the marshes here was totally a plot point for one of the early Saxon Tales books. (hide spoiler)] I kept imagining Uhtred skulking around in the background. :-)

Interesting that the chalk white horse (view spoiler)[that Aelstan carved out to commemorate his sister's contribution to the fighting (hide spoiler)] actually exists. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbur...)


Apparently there is more than one white chalk horse in England but this one is located near the Salisbury plain. Pretty cool!

(view spoiler)[Akkun's figurine didn't make an appearance in this chapter. I wonder if we'll see it again.

Tep's descendants are pretty sketchy. This is the second guy who has skipped.

Choko, I'm with you on not understanding why the Vikings would kill everyone, especially the children. It all seems highly impractical. Glad that Port's children were spared but poor Osric wasn't so lucky. And he only had six more months before he would've been out of there with a shot at a good life.

I guess Porteus from the last chapter didn't remain celibate for life after all. (hide spoiler)]

I agree that the snippets we get of the characters' lives seems really short and I'd love to see how everything works out for them. But I guess the book isn't really meant to focus on the individual people. The real character is the land, the story of its evolution into the England we know today. The people are just the devices to show that.

[Choko]

You are totally right, Sarum is the main character, everything else is what shaped it... I am glad everyone enjoyed this chapter:)

[Veronica]

The Castle

(view spoiler)[Didn't care for William of atte Bridge. Tep's descendants continue to bring trouble, don't they?

I felt sympathy for Godric. He had such small goals for his life. Granted he shouldn't have killed William ass Bridge's pig...but he was a dick and the poor boy needed some protein.

I understand why Mary did what she did but if she had just waited another day... *sigh* I wonder what happened to her or if she ever learned that Nicholas had arranged the bribe that would've saved Godric.

Justice for sale. Man's corruption of religion. No change there. :-(

Godefroi seemed like a good man. Considering that the civil war between Stephen and Matilda lasted over a decade, I wonder if his family ever returned from London or if he ever got to see them in all that time? (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Just finished The Castle. (view spoiler)[ This is the first chapter that felt a bit c
chaotic in my opinion. It started with the guys looking upon the town, but then it threw in the angry wives fighting, William kicking Godric, and Godric with his puppy getting William's pig... I thought it was a wonderful way for the poor crippled shepherd to get W back for the needles beating...

I hope that Godric had a way to find out that his uncle tried to save him, that he wasn't completely alone against the world. That last scene of him and the puppy just broke my heart, especially after he found out that Mary had betrayed him (which I also understand, although don't approve). He felt alone with just his puppy, she felt helpless and hopeless, pregnant, unattractive and only 14... Gosh, this is a hard life...

I also want to find out what happened with the family of the knight. They are with the burgesses' family in London. Are they coming back? I guess we might find out later.

Not a bad chapter, as far as we got a bit more detail about the rulling families at the time. Steven and his first cousin Matilda duked it out for a while, I wonder what side they landed on...

I still dislike the descendants of Tep! Nothing but trouble:) (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

The Founding...

This was, in my opinion, the best of the characters so far. However, it was personally to me, the most upsetting. Not because it wasn't true to history, but exactly because it was. Being a Gypsy-Jew, and having a very good idea why the hatred for the Jews became so prevalent at this time in the whole of Europe. - believe it or not, that was the time that the European nobles got everything they could from the Jews and created that horrible false image of them, just so they will not have to return their debts. Only then did the antisemitism began in earnest. The countries under non-christian rule were the ones which gave them shelter without fear of prosecution. As I was saying, being Jewish, this brought on a lot of feelings... Yes, we have that here in the States as well, but it doesn't begin to compare to the open and unabashed bigotry I experienced in Europe. I am so tired of hearing that I have some say in the control of the world, or that I am rich (don't I wish), or any of those crazy conspiracy theories! And somehow the Jews killed Christ - if this is what they get out of the bible, than they really should look into their hearts... Forget that Jesus and his followers, as well as Mary, were Jews, forget that the whole crucifixion was done by the Romans under pressure from a crowd with mob mentality, forget that the whole point was for him to die for humanity's sins... I am going on, instead of just saying, this hit really close to home and the author did a great job describing the insidious way this hatred became bigger and bigger with time... Apart from that
(view spoiler)[ There were many more characters, or at least that is what I thought. The Norman descendants were as he was chivalrous, but kind of prideful and spoiled too, not as in control as he was, so I was not surprised how his great-grandson ended up penniless.

Williams'son, I wanted to kill him and his son as well. When are they going to let all this vendetta stuff go??? I was so glad when the King figured out the "title" to the farm was a forgery, and still, they got to get out of that mess alive! And his wife, gghhhrrr! I get that the Mason was lusting after a 14-15 year old girl, and I don't approve at all, but she was devious from the start. Now, I have no idea what made her that way, but she was no innocent and she knew what she was doing... And her husband also realized that she is sexually... let's call it free, because he had no doubt she was going to agree to sleep with the Scottish dude, and she was happy to do it.
I loved how the farmers' daughter turned out, but I am scared for her, since she thinks she is being nice to the Williamson's family by letting them stay there, but she is just putting a poisonous snake in her pants, with the son swearing to keep up with the vendetta...

I loved the story of the creation of the town and the cathedral! Just as much, I loved the way Rutherfurd weaved in the whole history of England at the time. All the different laws and the reasons they implemented them, such a great introduction! (hide spoiler)]

I will chat more when you guys get here, because I need to take a break - this really touched me unexpectedly, and I need to step back a bit. Interested in what you guys think...