SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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The Steerswoman
Group Reads Discussions 2021
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"The Steerswoman" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
Aaaaaah!!! I can‘t wait to join in for this, re-read the book, and read everyone else‘s thoughts! (I‘ll probably only have time to start on Friday, but I am already very excited.)
I really enjoyed the characters and the friendship between Rowan and Bel.
Re-reading the first chapter last night, I was struck by how the first meeting between Rowan and Bel is set up. Just…in a tavern and and driven by curiosity, despite the fact Outskirters are somewhat looked down on or even feared. And their first interaction lays such good groundwork both in terms of worldbuilding and their later friendship.Also, I did not notice the first time around that they were both standing on chairs when they first notice each other (or at least when Rowan first notices Bel), but for very different reasons. It’s a fun little parallel.
I love how their strengths complement each other. Bel is strong and also seems more practical than Rowan. Yet her natural curiosity and joy in figuring things out allows her to keep up with Rowan and makes her an enjoyable companion. Rowan educates Bel on the world outside the Outskirts and is very kind and patient with her. She is also smart and open-minded enough to appreciate Bel's many great qualities.
An engaging book so far. Look forward to my reading time each day. As Rowan and Bel continue to compliment each other's ways, curiosity versus brute force, are nicely written.Just into the chapter where Rowan must go against her teachings and beliefs by lying. This may actually teach us about ourselves!
I finished reading this a while ago but my life has been a chaos of report card writing and class changeover.Overall I really enjoyed the story. It reveals enough that you figure out the general course of what's going on, but not so much that you can grasp the entire picture right away. The characters were interesting and engaging, although on only a couple occasions it felt almost like they acted their role a little too hard, if that makes sense. But then, perhaps in the larger scheme of things some of those moments made sense in a world where the level of scientific knowledge is in a rather unusual state.
The pace of the story was nice but I was disappointed to see it end on a cliffhanger. It looks like this is book one of a series that has 4 books so far. Is there a point at which this series is complete, or do all the books cliffhanger like that and we're awaiting a book 5?
It is definitely a series I would enjoy reading to the end, but I feel I would probably rather wait for it to actually be ended and then read it all at once.
@Chris: Without going back to check, I would say the books all end on a cliffhanger to some extent. At least where the overall story is concerned. @Mindy: I agree!
I finished chapter 16 last night and the realisation about the silversmith is still one of my favorite realizations in the book. I enjoy how Kirsten layers clues into the story, only to come back to them later when the characters and readers have more pieces to a puzzle.
And I’m still very fond of Willam.
Just finished. Rated it 4.5 stars rounded up to 5. I disliked some of the violence, but otherwise enjoyed this a lot and was engaged throughout. Will come back to the questions tonight when I have more time.
Mod
If all cliffhangers were as good as this I'd have a completely different opinion about them.
(I still hate the second matrix movie and remember walking out of the cinema cursing it because of the cliffhanger non ending. I had similar feelings about one of The Expanse novels too.
*not you, of course. You're special. The kind of special Shepherd Book talks about.
the first book had an ending of sorts with a new direction to go in the second book and so forth
1. What did you think about the world?2. When did you start to piece together how things worked?
3. What did you think of the plot?
4. What worked or didn't for you?
1) At first I assumed this was a fantasy world, but as the book progressed and it appeared that "magic" was more like science then I wasn't as sure. My best guess at this point is this is some colony world which has regressed.
2) I think I might have started to guess as soon as the theory about the giant throwing the crystals started to be discussed.
3-4) I liked how cerebral the plot was. My only problem was that someone like the Steerswoman would be so okay with violence (torturing prisoners and blowing up entire castles full of people, etc.)
I was reminded of the Arthur Clarke quote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
Yeah I guess cliffhanger wasn't quite the right word. It's not that there's any obligation of the story to explain everything (in fact, that would run counter to the entire idea of the story). It was more just that if I'd turned the page and found another chapter it would've made sense. Rowan and Bel's story seemed to only just be starting.Then I saw that the first two books were rereleased at some point as a single text, so I was curious if there are stories finishing and new ones beginning among those four books, or if it's more like one long story still in-progress.
Also I realised I didn't really address the questions:
1. It pretty early on gave me some Scrapped Princess vibes, and that definitely continued throughout. That said, I think that while there are world similarities there (or at least, from the first book it seems as though there may be), the story itself is of course very, very different.
2. If we exclude the fact that this was the sci-fi read which was kind of a big hint, I'd agree with Christopher - around the time they were discussing the graphs of the giant throwing jewels and not quite grasping orbit / escape velocity I started picking up on some. Not the specifics of course. (I don't remember the guidestars even being mentioned until very late.)
3. Overall it was very engaging. It was interesting trying to puzzle out what led to the wizards thinking of Rowan (and the Steerswomen in general) as a threat. The puzzles going forward are also interesting. For example, why would it come as a surprise that a layman could stumble across the concept of explosives?
4. The story does a great job of being consistent and laying good breadcrumbs without actually revealing the total picture. You can always get some idea of what's going on without necessarily pinning down the details. The only thing that really seemed out of place was how easily the idea that an item could leave the Earth and not come down was just... dismissed initially by Rowan. But that was very early in the story and gave way pretty quickly to more open curiosity.
Mod
I really liked the world-building. Honestly, I had forgotten this was the sci-fi pick, but I started suspecting around the same point as Chris. (I disagree here with my friends who don't think this book seems like it's from the 80s - there's something about the way the sci-fi is written into the fantasy-like setting that reads to me as era-typical.) In general, I thought the story was very engaging, and managed a really impressive balance of moving the plot along and revealing information about the world-building. For me also the biggest issue was the violence, and the way Rowan seemed just sort of accept it and move on. The torture scene unsettled me a bit, but it was the destruction of the castle of the end that I really struggled with. I'm hoping the next books in the series deal with the aftermath of this for Rowan.
As for the 80’s it reminded me a bit of the Pern books with the mix of science and dragons etc
Chris wrote: "Yeah I guess cliffhanger wasn't quite the right word. It's not that there's any obligation of the story to explain everything (in fact, that would run counter to the entire idea of the story). It w..."I’ve been thinking that this being a SciFi read might almost give too much away, but there was obviously no other way to read it as a BotM.
I went in (almost) completely blind when I read this for the first time - I think the only thing I knew beforehand was the basic concept of what/who a Steerswoman is - so it took me a little longer to pick up on things.
I have to admit I wasn’t bothered by Rowan accepting the violence on my first read, but now that people have pointed it out I have been wondering about it.
I think the castle thing is maybe partly because it wasn’t really her plan/her decision? I did like that there was some emphasis on how the destruction of the castle impacted Willam. He was clearly troubled by it.
I also wonder if we’re supposed to assume that Rowan is just used to a certain degree of violence - there are these periodical wars after all - or if her acceptance of it where the castle was concerned comes from her “I’m done running, let’s take the fight to the wizard” decision.
One other 80’s point of reference — the castle being destroyed reminds me somewhat of the Death Star. As a kid I cheered when it got obliterated, but thinking about it now there were a lot of people aboard that ship! Probably many of whom were just maintenance crew etc with no particular allegiance. Feels like in Star Wars there was no real thought to that collateral damage or the human cost to staving off the Empire — it was likely necessary but still.
Christopher wrote: "One other 80’s point of reference — the castle being destroyed reminds me somewhat of the Death Star. As a kid I cheered when it got obliterated, but thinking about it now there were a lot of peopl..."Kinda like watching the Star Wars movie with the Ewoks battling the Storm Troopers. People were laughing and cheering and for a moment I stopped and thought that it was pretty sorry for people to be laughing at death. It really bothered me
For those who have been bringing up the violence/torture aspect, if you haven't already checked out the Q&A thread, Rosemary was asked about it (or at least the torture scene in specific) as well, and gave a detailed response about her thoughts when she wrote it and how it was affected by the time it was written. It's worth checking out. The discussion is throughout the thread and probably worth going through all of, but her response is on message 45.
Christopher wrote: "As for the 80’s it reminded me a bit of the Pern books with the mix of science and dragons etc"Yeah, I definitely thought of Pern as well, and also a bit Dreamsnake. Although Steerswoman was a much better book than either of those.
I hadn't thought of Dreamsnake, but now that you mention it I can see that connection too. The Healers & Steerspeople both travel around with wisdom lost to the general population.
1. What did you think about the world?In the long run, the world in the present was maybe not as interesting as what events had brought it to that point. I'm curious about the rational explanations for "goblins" and "gnomes." Maybe native life forms? I love the idea of the Steerswomen and the Archives.
2. When did you start to piece together how things worked?
As mentioned in the "first impressions" thread, the cover of the first paperback edition gave some of the game away before I'd gotten far with the book. (there aren't even computer terminals in the book, as far as I know. grr!) With that in mind, I figured that the dragons were constructs or cyborgs of some kind as soon as one's eye broke and it was described like breaking glass, and that the guide stars were orbiting satellites, well before Rowan did. Scrapped Princess (as mentioned by Chris) could have given some hints, too, if I'd remembered it, which I didn't. :D It's almost 20 years old?? What....
ETA: in re Mareike's comment #8, I didn't figure out what was going on with the silversmith, or maybe I missed some context along the way
3. What did you think of the plot?
It was fun. I appreciated that we rarely or never paused for info-dumps but instead learned about the world through the eyes and actions of the characters.
4. What worked or didn't for you?
The overall mystery was great. I liked all three of the "adventuring party" once Willem joined, and felt that their strengths balance each other well.
Things that didn't work for me were mostly of the "this was written in the '80s, after all" type. A mostly blase attitude toward the deaths of one's enemies, the torture scene (as mentioned by others), and the off-screen but still present idea of a 14-year-old being pressed into sex slavery with two 17-year-olds.
On that: is Liane actually dead? I think she's too old to be Willem's sister, if he is now 14 (!) and his sister was a few years younger than him (iirc), so I suppose she is still out there somewhere.
Galloped through to the end of the book which is always a good sign. Really enjoyed the book and so glad that this was written in the 80s so I can jump straight onto the next book in the series.I've very interested to find out what is really going on. It is clear that magic is not "magic" magic but sci-tech but what sort of tech? 80s current earth tech, or something more advanced. How was the fortress build for example? Are they on an alien/fantasy world so the dragon is alien creatures, or is there a tech explanation for them. The "wizards" don't know, or do they?
So many questions, don't answer? You are not steerswomen! :)
Liked the characters very much , and the fact that they are female characters and it is very "not an issue; it just is" - as it should be. It's sad that is this a problem in the real world even today.
My only pause was the torture scene. Would Rowan really have condoned that? It seems out of character. Otherwise the characters were spot on
Mod
There is the (strong?) suggestion of sexual assault in The Steerswoman between the wizards and Liane, but even there we have a narrative put forward about Liane that makes it not exactly palatable, but tolerable*.
* Huge disclaimer as someone who whilst sensitive to the issue of sexual assault isn't part of the group whose voices should be heard on the subject.
Pinging on a topic from the VBC, seems to fit better here than the BR thread for whatever reason:Mel mentioned the sense of scale, distance, orientation on a map in the book is really good. Someone (I forget who) said that this is more of a science fantasy, that the adventurers' journey has more the feel and pace of a fantasy novel journey.
In some books it feels like the author's primary means of getting around is a car, and they don't have a great idea of how much time it takes to get from point A to point B on foot. Tolkien in (the little so far I've read of) Fellowship of the Ring has this aspect down. At one point in Steerswoman, it's mentioned that wizards can fly, but we don't see one doing so, so far (or that I recognized as such?).
Mod
What else was said that I regretfully missed?
Mod
I think we also discussed how Battlestar Galactica was the pinnacle of modern sci-fi television.
There's just something about torture!
Mod
I am still curious about what was said in the first hour of The Steerswoman VBC chat! Will Bonnie come to my rescue?
My recollection is somewhat blurry, but here's what it is:1) Everyone agreed they liked this novel
2) People liked how the directions/map/world worked well
3) People liked the friendship of Rowan & Bel and were thinking it seemed relatively unique to see such a pairing, tried to find other examples
4) Talked about antebellum vampire novels and their perceived popularity
5) Talked about steerswoman code a bit, someone mentioned the "internet at walking speed" quote
6) discussed if people liked having the author chat, seemed unanimous that people enjoyed it
Also, despite the obvious snark of my prior BSG comment, I actually really did enjoy the show back when it was on (despite not liking how it wrapped up). The key for me at least was to think of it all as an allegory and not really as any sort of science fiction that is predicting the future at all or interested in the science. More just an allegory/metaphor in a fantasy sf setting. It may have gotten too political at times but it was trying to spark discussion on issues of the day.
Mod
You've basically summed up why I didn't like BSG as a SF show. I don't mind politics in my fiction or addressing issues of the time. It's where on the political spectrum that they focus on that bothered me. That and the idea that anyone was meant to find Lee Adama attractive.
Probably best to save everything else I have to say about the show for a Discord chat.
Glad that everyone liked The Steerswoman and relieved that I don't have to unfollow dissenting voices.
I really love how the workings of the world are revealed by the process of following Rowen and Bel moving through it. It makes it feel organic, also the moments when Rowen needs to check herself for assuming what Bel does or doesn't understand, she's not a perfect character and has biases and assumptions, like anyone else. The mutual respect between them makes those learning moments feel real though, cos they are two people from very different places getting to know each other and have that underlying respect and liking each other to understand those mistakes.
When I read this I wasn't aware of it being labelled a sci-fi book, so started thinking it was fantasy before gradually starting to wonder if "magic" was actually something else. I love the perspective of exploring things that are magical to someone who's never encountered something before, but using the practice of logic and deduction to figure out functions.
I think the moments of violence in the book need to be taken in context of the world and experiences in which they happen. I find the torture scene horrible, but so does Rowen, she can't even go through with it and witness it herself, but this happens after very real attempts to murder her have occurred. Her life is in real danger.
I appreciated as well that we didn't have to get a graphic description of the torture, but the visceral horror of it is not reduced for me at all, from the way it's perceived from what Rowen hears and what she has to do to deal with. Same with the castle being destroyed. She didn't make the plan, that was Willam and Bel and it was very clear that she was going to be murdered in very short order. It was awful, and maybe not completely intended, but this isn't a cosy happy world of perfection, is the messy kind of world of both good and terrible things that comes with human beings acting like human beings.
I like that there wasn't a fantasy of a perfect human society, which makes it both relatable and real and also highlights the very positive things, like the clear general gender equality.
I think another of my favourite things is how while the original question from the beginning of the book is answered, that answer, like the best kind of discoveries and mysteries, only leads to more and bigger and harder questions.
Mod
Ryan wrote: "[…]That and the idea that anyone was meant to find Lee Adama attractive. [...]"So say we all. XD
Starbuck, though…..
(I binged my way through that show a few years ago and really loved it but I hear you on the “where on the political spectrum they focused” bit.)
Back to the topic at hand, though:
One thing I was thinking about the other day was that I liked that there wasn’t a strict “Only women can be Steerswoman, only men can be wizards” division. When I first read the book last year, I kind of assumed that that’s how the world worked and I liked how the story dispelled that by the Steersmen coming up in conversation and via the reference to female wizards and, eventually the appearance of Shammer. All while still recognising that there are social forces (and forces of societal “habit” if you will) that lead to more women than men choosing to become Steerswomen.
I might have to go back to the Q&A thread and ask if Kirstein wanted her readers to believe there was a gender segregation there only to then topple that assumption. Because it feels like that kind of dichotomy was typical of (some) SFF in the 70s and maybe 80s?
And in this context, the one thing I kinda wish had been there more was some “gender trouble” and a recognition that there’s more than two genders, but given when the book was written, I’m willing to let that one go.
Mod
I say this about a lot of social justice issues but it's important to recognise that we're not living through anything new today. The desire to think that we're more enlightened today than previous generations on such topics is one we should stomp out. Heck, that's one of the messages that you can pick up from reading The Steerswoman.
Ryan wrote: "..I say this about a lot of social justice issues but it's important to recognise that we're not living through anything new today. The desire to think that we're more enlightened today than previous generations on such topics is one we should stomp out. ..."Hear, hear!
Well, I’ve been in this group for a couple years but had never read any of the books. I started the steersman this time though and loved it. I read all 4! I loved rThe world building, the characters were lovely, and an imaginative story, all drew me right in. I especially loved the way magic was treated as rediscovering science and definitely feel it’s a colonized world rediscovering it’s origins. Now I have to go read the QA and find out if any further works are planned.
And big decision tonight, to start Cytonic or A Master of Djinn.
So many books…
Just re-read the Steerswoman and enjoyed it again. It is the world building and the building friendship as others have said, plus how being a steerswoman is kept at the core of Rowan's life and all the way through the book. Some books have something different/special about a character and it seems to be forgotten/not mentioned after the first 50 pages but the nature of being a steerswoman is built upon and also key to the story, so very well done.
Ryan wrote: "Trans people existed before SFF ever did and other SFF authors (LeGuin, Delany, for example) were including nonbinary genders at least twenty years before The Steerswoman was published. The Steersw..."Oh, I know that trans people have always existed way before the book was written and that other SFF authors had written brilliant work exploring gender diversity already. I’m just trying to be……Idk….gracious? That’s not quite the word I’m looking for.
I guess I’m just aware of my own journey of learning about LGBTQ+ history (as well as the history of other marginalized groups) and how much I’ve learned in the past…..10 years or so. So I guess while I wish there was more of a depiction of gender and sexual diversity in this book, I’m not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good?
Edit: Spoiler for later books in the series. (view spoiler)
Mod
I'd rather we left an open challenge for people to be 'better' than provide cover for them to stay however they are. (I must remember to start a discussion about what we think people in the future will deride us/me for)
That is very true, Ryan.
Ryan wrote: "I know you know, Mareike. I just don't like that "we" provide this excuse for works from decades ago as if the authors reality was so different to ours. Books of old aren't representative of the wo..."Can I just say that society actually was a bit different - people may have been the same but society wasn't and some things most people kept quiet about or just plain didn't know. It will be about 25 years ago now that I was at a friend's wedding - she was the bride. Before the wedding, she was talking to me about her guests, and how two she'd invited were a gay couple. At the wedding you'd never had guessed the two men were a couple as they invited women out on the dance floor and never danced together themselves. I thought at the time how sad it was that they felt they had to do that - but I think they were also being considerate, as there were a lot of older generation there and if they'd danced together they might have triggered a row that would have overshadowed the wedding. That was a bit later than when The Steerswoman was written and published. And later there was the gay couple in Four Weddings and a Funeral - and their friends had not really got their heads around how they were a couple, until the funeral. They knew they were a gay couple, but somehow were still thinking of them as two bachelors. Depending on where you live, some things are still not at all obvious. We live in a rural area of the country and there must be trans people around, but I am not aware - my main education in trans has come from science fiction and fantasy plus the occasional passing petition from Care2 and the like that comes through my inbox regarding rights, which I sign. What I could really do with, is a good source to learn more, as I would hate to be insensitive to someone. I always hate it when people look at me, and make assumptions like addressing me as Mrs - older woman, must be Mrs. Or assume that because I'm female I'm girly, don't understand cars or computers, like pink and frills, and worry about my fingernails. And something I really do like in the Steerswoman is the equal opportunities. I'm currently reading Outskirter's Secret and there are two themes I am seeing - no hint of women being warriors is anything other than run of the mill, and how mertutials are as necessary and respected as warriors. So many books are woo-hoo, sword wielding warriors are the bees knees.
Mod
It's precisely why I say we shouldn't make the excuse that things were different back then. We still live in a world where things and people exist that we will never have a personal interaction with. Its important that we correct the narrative of the past which often reads as though some new minority group popped into existence in recent years. We can continue that correcting process by documenting our personal journeys of enlightenment without the pretence that everyone else is ignorant of the same things we are. It's actually something that the Steerswoman series deals with quite wonderfully. At least in my reading of it.
There's a pretty active series read thread of The Steerswoman that you're welcome to talk about the other books in btw.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I watched a panel from Quarancon 2021 about Existing Mythologies, which, amongst other things, talks about the fact that many vikings were women but that its not reflected in many of our fictional portrayals of the time and place. Its nice to think that the gender equality shown in The Steerswoman existed sometime and place in reality.
https://youtu.be/lvqAeQQvzJI
Ryan wrote: "That's kind of what I'm saying, Carro. The wedding you attended wasn't representative of the world but of the couples social circles. The same as your life which hasn't resulted in an offline inter..."OK I think we are probably saying the same thing in different ways,
It was just that you said earlier that
Books of old aren't representative of the world at the time but of the authors and the gatekeepers of the publishing industry.
and I was trying to say that it could be true to the author's experience - that they were not deliberately leaving out trans people, just not aware in the first place.
If you are someone who doesn't often watch the news for example, it would be easy to miss the pride movement. I did, because those years were when I was a student, working my backside off on a very tough course, no easy access to a TV and no money for newspapers. I completely missed it, even though it was so big. A couple of years back there was a repeat of Pride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_%...) on TV which was very educational.
Small suggestion - the question and answer thread for Rosemary Kirstein might be a place to highlight trans. With a continuing series there is also an expectation (is probably the word I want) that the series had continuity from the earlier books. (If you've already put in a question, I apologise.)
I don't have a reference for it, but there was archaeological evidence found in the last couple of years of the graves of women warriors amongst a nomadic people - possibly out towards Mongolia. A minority but a definite presence.
The Steerswoman was not what I expected, from the old paperback cover, I thought it'd be a D&D type adventure. I also didn't expect a 1989 Fantasy to have such a capable cast of women, at a time when most D&D parties had at most one woman usually cast as a healer.I love the relationship between Bel and Rowan,(view spoiler)
The worldbuilding and the inclusion of a map really added to the overall reading experience.
I'm really glad that I joined the SciFi and Fantasy Book Club group as I'd never heard of this series before and now I can't wait to continue with the next book.
Carro wrote: "I don't have a reference for it, but there was archaeological evidence found in the last couple of years of the graves of women warriors amongst a nomadic people - possibly out towards Mongolia. A minority but a definite presence."And while the archeological discoveries are new, in Herodotus' History we have notion that Scythians warred man and woman alike, so notions were (as well as mythical Amazonians by the same author)
My review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...What I didn't like is how tech masquerading as magic is presented. From what we can guess, Willam invented both dynamite and black powder (one spell should be hit, another burn) without any kind of lab. A wizard gives electric light (I guess) to a town, without hurdles that real invention and industrial base for this took in our world. Either wizards have stashes of old (assuming degrading colony?) items or methods to produce stuff it on a surface a medieval society
Oleksandr wrote: "My review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...What I didn't like is how tech masquerading as magic is presented. From what we can guess, Willam invented both dynamite and black powde..."
Well, speaking as a chemist and a re-enactor, black powder was around a long time before labs existed and you get the saltpeter aka potassium nitrate from sources like the soil in a dovecote, or as William does, scraping inflorescence off a wall. Something that is more unstable when you knock it could be any number of organic nitrogen compounds - the most famous of which is nitroglycerine, followed by nitrocellulose. Those were mid-Victorian inventions. That is as far as my knowledge takes me - so I can't say for sure whether early gunpowder had some instability to blows, especially if it wasn't homogeneously mixed. There are also percussion caps, which enclose mercuric fulminate that were first created in 1800 in our world. Science does have a long pedigree of individuals who were either outstanding, super-determined, or in the right place at the right time, or all at once and are known for particular discoveries, frequently but not always, made as an individual not as a larger team. William is in a world where there is known to be more advanced tech so he knows that more can be done than is immediately obvious - which is another catalyst point.
I read the Wizards as being people who have retained high-tech lost to everyone else.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Dreamsnake (other topics)Dreamsnake (other topics)
A few questions to get us started:
1. What did you think about the world?
2. When did you start to piece together how things worked?
3. What did you think of the plot?
4. What worked or didn't for you?
First impressions thread is here.