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The Corinthian November 21 Group Read SPOILERS thread
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Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂
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Oct 30, 2021 09:25PM
For open spoilers & final conclusions!
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Recently spotted….A thread in a FB group asked, “How can you tell if you are in a Georgette Heyer novel? Answer: ‘You dangle outside of your bedroom window on a too-short sheet until a drunken Corinthian with powerful thighs comes to your rescue.”
Katie wrote: "Recently spotted….A thread in a FB group asked, “How can you tell if you are in a Georgette Heyer novel? Answer: ‘You dangle outside of your bedroom window on a too-short sheet until a drunken Cor..."
Hahahahaha!
Well, overly ambitious mamas were forever “dangling” their daughters in front of him, probably only a matter of time before one fell upon him!
Susan in NC wrote: "Well, overly ambitious mamas were forever “dangling” their daughters in front of him, probably only a matter of time before one fell upon him!"Susan!😅😂🤣
I guess it would depend on how ambitious the mama was, and getting Richard to stay still…;)
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Great point, Jenn! Susan, that particular night he was ripe for any mischief. 😁
Katie wrote: "Great point, Jenn! Susan, that particular night he was ripe for any mischief. 😁"
Absolutely- drunk enough, feeling sorry for himself…bad combo!
My favorite scene in the whole book is the early one, where his sister and her husband find Richard missing and the butler presents them with the shawl and the hair clippings. Then Cedric shows up, saying he advised 'Ricky' to run! The conversation between Louisa and George is so much fun.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Note: spoiler for other GH books follows: [spoilers removed]"True!
I do love this book but it has a few imperfections. I'll wait a few more days before mentioning them!
Fun fact and crazy coincidence?There is a Heyer quote from The Corinthian found in Susan Elizabeth Phillips’ “Ain’t She Sweet” in the beginning right after the chapter summary! My little nerd heart was super excited to find this lol.
Jenny wrote: "Not-quite engaged to a mature woman he's not in love with, our hero becomes side-tracked by a beautiful young runaway ... this book is the ancestor of The Foundling, Sprig Muslin and Charity Girl, ..."As far as publication dates, I think it may be true. Although, it’s my understanding that she penned a lot of her works at different times and held onto them before publishing. Maybe someone else can speak to that?
Here’s pub dates:
Corinthian was pub 1940
Foundling 1948
Sprig 1956
Charity 1970
Barb in Maryland wrote: "My favorite scene in the whole book is the early one, where his sister and her husband find Richard missing and the butler presents them with the shawl and the hair clippings. Then Cedric shows up,..."I love that scene too! It definitely shows her satire skill, for sure. I always think of Wilde when I read her scenes like that, she does the, so well imo.
Crazy About Love ❤️ wrote: "As far as publication dates, I think it may be true. Although, it’s my understanding that she penned a lot of her works at different times and held onto them before publishing."I would have to check but I don't think that was true. GH & her husband were in financial difficulty a lot of the time because they never came to grips with the British tax system. The only exception was the unfinished My Lord John which she worked on for several years.
I do think she was sick of Regencies by the end & was rehashing old plots.
Katie wrote: "Recently spotted….A thread in a FB group asked, “How can you tell if you are in a Georgette Heyer novel? Answer: ‘You dangle outside of your bedroom window on a too-short sheet until a drunken Cor..."
😂😂😂
Katie wrote: "Recently spotted….A thread in a FB group asked, “How can you tell if you are in a Georgette Heyer novel? Answer: ‘You dangle outside of your bedroom window on a too-short sheet until a drunken Cor..."
Love this!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "My favorite scene in the whole book is the early one, where his sister and her husband find Richard missing and the butler presents them with the shawl and the hair clippings. Then Cedric shows up,..."Don't know about in the whole book yet, but I surely did enjoy this scene very much. ;)
Katie wrote: "Recently spotted….A thread in a FB group asked, “How can you tell if you are in a Georgette Heyer novel? Answer: ‘You dangle outside of your bedroom window on a too-short sheet until a drunken Cor..."
Katie that's so funny!
As I get older (I just turned 60) I find I enjoy heroines that are mature as opposed to the ingenue. And Pen could be the poster child for ingenue! So this novel is not one of my favorites, but I enjoy it for the humor.
It's hard to choose a favorite scene, but I've narrowed it down to two: Sir Richard's masterful handling of Mr. Philips when reporting a murder with hot rum punch he has made for the occasion, and Cedric's interactions with Lydia's father.
Cedric is my favorite character, I think.
Jackie I love Cedric! Every time he sees Richard he tells him to run, run, run from marriage to his sister. He’s looking out for his friend and not trying to save his own financial woes. He’s going to make something of himself without his family.
“A quizzing-glass on a black ribbon hung round his neck; a fob at his waist; and in one hand he carried a Sèvres snuff-box. His air proclaimed his unutterable boredom, but no tailoring, no amount of studied nonchalance, could conceal the muscle in his thighs, or the strength of his shoulders.”It all just fits doesn’t it? The boredom, the nonchalance, the thighs, the shoulders? What is it about these characteristics that are so attractive?
(Well maybe I do understand about the thighs and shoulders 😄)
I was going to say, “Uh, Katie, read that through again…” 😉
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By the end, yes, she was, wasn't she? But I do feel that with The Foundling and Sprig Muslin at least, she had come up with two very different ways of dealing with the same basic plot elements and I do think they are both better books than The Corinthian. Charity Girl, though it has its moments, is undeniably a pot-boiler!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "My favorite scene in the whole book is the early one, where his sister and her husband find Richard missing and the butler presents them with the shawl and the hair clippings. Then Cedric shows up,..."I’d vote for that scene too! It was amusing that it was happening in the first place in Richard’s house while he was absent.
Though I found when the Griffin’s encountered Richard at the George to be fun to read.
Jackie wrote: "Katie wrote: "Recently spotted….A thread in a FB group asked, “How can you tell if you are in a Georgette Heyer novel? Answer: ‘You dangle outside of your bedroom window on a too-short sheet until..."
I’m not far off that milestone myself! And like you I tend to prefer the mature heroines. But I don’t mind ingenues so much as I do the weepy scatterbrains, here typified by Lydia.
Pen is certainly young and inexperienced in the ways of the world. But she’s bold, smart and for all the wild plans and scrapes she gets into she doesn’t lack agency or common sense. I think Heyer very cleverly sets up Lydia as a foil for Pen. It made me smile every time Pen calls her ‘very silly’ (Piers too, for that matter!) And when Pen gets into strife, it’s not weeping and fainting for her, instead she uses her wits and ingenuity to escape (view spoiler)
This book reminded me of ‘These Old Shades,’ what with the age difference, and Richard calling Pen ‘brat,’ ‘my child,’ ‘little one’ and so on. But like the worldly Leonie, I think Pen savvy and self-reliant enough to make her seem older.
I thought the romance was charming. Their interactions were humorous and had some lovely moments, things like Pen speaking of Richard’s ‘smiling eyes,’ and his hesitation to take snuff if Pen thinks it ‘odious.’
Cedric certainly steals all his scenes! I can’t really pick a favourite, but I do think Pen’s disillusionment with Piers and her teasing him about Lydia taking parrot, lap-dog, love-birds etc was delightful!
Katie wrote: "Recently spotted….A thread in a FB group asked, “How can you tell if you are in a Georgette Heyer novel? Answer: ‘You dangle outside of your bedroom window on a too-short sheet until a drunken Cor..."
Oh my gosh, priceless!!
This seems like such a cheerful story, with a very good-natured hero and heroine. Piers and Lydia are sooo ridiculous, and they make Pen look down-to-earth by contrast.
I got the sense that GH really enjoyed creating this story. So cheery, lots of humour and a lovely, gentle romance. I'm in the mood for more!
I'm always in the mood for more Heyer!This is a book that it doesn't pay to think too deeply about, but family friends or not, I am baffled why Richard's mother & sister are so set on Richard marrying Melissa. Usually GH's Regency aristocracy are pretty keen on holding on to (or better still, increasing) the family fortune. Marry into a family that contains Lord Saar, Beverley & Ceddie seems a good way to go through your money!
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I'm always in the mood for more Heyer!This is a book that it doesn't pay to think too deeply about, but family friends or not, I am baffled why Richard's mother & sister are so set on Richard mar..."
You've got a point there. Has the imperative to have Richard married become more pronounced than the financial gain? And here's Melissa, and her family, almost panting to be attached!
Well I’m coming somewhat late to the party - but I’m finally here! I haven’t re-read The Corinthian in more than 30 years and I’d only read it once. So, you can imagine how delighted I was to thoroughly enjoy it and discover it felt almost like I’d never read it before. I have to agree with many of the comments. In no particular order:
1. Pen is, despite her youth so clever and adult in comparison with Piers and Lydia, that I had less difficulty in seeing why Richard might fall in love with her.
2. So many of the characters are clearly destined to reappear in later novels. It seems GH had a toolbox of characters ready to be recycled in subsequent books.
3. This story is far superior to the later incarnations of this trope (Charity Girl, Sprig Muslin et al. )
4. I still don’t understand why Richard’s mother and sister were so keen for him to marry and I certainly don’t understand what kind of arrangement could tie him to Melissa. I always disliked GH for using my maiden name for this family. I felt it really gave us ‘Brandon’s’ a bad name!
5. Despite Pen being such a well rounded character - I’m still unsure that Richard would fall in love with a 17 year old. It’s odd that I totally accept the age difference in other books but find this one less convincing!
6. I found some of the secondary characters rather annoying (and I remembered feeling the same the first time round.)
3.5 stars from me.
I still don't love this one. Pen is very young and crazy! I don't see a man of almost 30 falling in love with a 17 year old girl. She needs a real uncle to ride shotgun and pick up the threads of her crazy stories and not a husband yet. Lydia and Piers are both incredibly annoying. Lydia is silly but she's calculating. She gets what she wants in the end and a romantic adventure to boot. May be they eternally miserable!
Heyer had a favored trope of the world-weary man of fashion falling for a fresh, unsophisticated outsider, and I think this story is an early version of it. Thinking of Arabella in particular, but there are others. People of her generation often took for granted that a man of greater experience would be drawn to an ingenue; and I suppose a lot of the marriageable men of her era were those who had survived World War I, so this trope makes a degree of sense. Nowadays when so many couples meet in college or the workplace, it seems more unusual. I’m not bothered by the age difference here as I am in, say, Jane Austen’s Emma, because Pen is very bright and the two of them come to understand each other well and work as partners in solving their dilemmas.
Lydia is worse than silly, she's a manipulative liar. I don't remember taking quite such a dislike to her when I read the book before. I can see her becoming one of Heyer's older women who enjoy bad health and manipulating their families, kind of like Richard's mother, actually. I feel sorry for Piers, who is a bit stuffy and not too bright, but doesn't deserve Lydia.
Abigail wrote: "Heyer had a favored trope of the world-weary man of fashion falling for a fresh, unsophisticated outsider, and I think this story is an early version of it. Thinking of Arabella in particular, but ..."& Richard said he would never get tired of laughing!
@ QNPB & Cheryl it did strike me this time how manipulative Lydia is. Obviously spoilt rotten!
it was fun watching Lydia attempting to manipulate Pen and running up against Pen's complete indifference to her "charms".
& another thing that struck me are the staggering sums of money being spent on the Brandon family!Buying Ceddie a pair of colours I remember as being very expensive, but bailing the unlovely Beverly out would be the equivalent of £896,299.05 in today's money.
https://www.in2013dollars.com/uk/infl...
& at least Richard liked Ceddie!
Maybe Heyer didn’t yet have a good grasp of the value of money in the Regency? Though I’ve always wondered how even rich Mr. Darcy could (view spoiler) in Pride and Prejudice.
Abigail wrote: "Maybe Heyer didn’t yet have a good grasp of the value of money in the Regency? Though I’ve always wondered how even rich Mr. Darcy could [spoilers removed] in Pride and Prejudice."Good point! Amazing that it took so long for aristocratic families to ship “wronguns” off to overseas British lands - seems cheaper than getting a daughter married to a gentleman with a fortune, especially one willing to bail out the rest of the debt-ridden family! Think of the vast wealth wasted, shifted about to bail out spendthrifts and wastrels!
Money is hard to translate into today's dollars. It's actually based on purchasing power and income and influenced by war, inflation, costs of goods, etc. How much can a family afford on their income? Like how many servants, a carriage, etc. It's not a direct calculations from pounds to pounds (and then dollars).Mr. Darcy has 10 thousand a year. What does that mean? English laborers earned only around £15–20 a year
https://medium.com/patricia-mirasol/w...
this one goes more into depth
https://jasna.org/publications-2/pers....
Yes - calculating monetary values over the centuries is difficult for all the reasons QNPoohBear lists. £10,000 can be interpreted as almost three quarters of a million to £66 million pounds. Remembering the exercises we did at university, I suspect Mr Darcy's income was the equivalent of millions today!
https://www.measuringworth.com/calcul...
What constituted wealth was crucial and it does illustrate why land was so important and holding on to it, even more so.
I think it would be fun if we made up our own thread …Ways you would know if you were in “The Corinthian?”Examples…
You’re traveling with a man, with powerful thighs, who uses his quizzing glass as a weapon
From the other group…
You find yourself dangling outside your bedroom window and you realize that the sheets you tied together are not long enough. Luckily a drunken Corinthian with powerful thighs comes to your rescue.
(As you can probably tell, I’m hung up on thighs)
One last word about the money issue in Pride and Prejudice (view spoiler): Mr. Bennet says, “Wickham’s a fool, if he takes her with a farthing less than ten thousand pounds.” That’s just his speculation but if he’s anywhere near correct, that’s Mr. Darcy’s entire annual income, more or less. That’s why I wondered how realistic it was! And the numbers in The Corinthian don’t make any more sense.
Yes, but the £10,000 pa is simply his income. What isn’t mentioned is the size of his actual fortune. https://janeaustensworld.com/2008/02/...
I understand, Susan, but selling ten thousand pounds out of the funds would be a huge hit. If his income were derived from the three-percents, for instance, it would reduce his income by three hundred pounds a year. Of course, a lot of his income probably comes from rents and being from the north he’s likely to have manufacturing business interests. Of course, we’re getting way off topic here.
Abigail wrote: "I understand, Susan, but selling ten thousand pounds out of the funds would be a huge hit. If his income were derived from the three-percents, for instance, it would reduce his income by three hund..."But a fascinating discussion! Thanks, ladies- and Katie, mind you don’t dangle out any windows before checking if there’s a strong-thighed fella down there to catch you! 😉
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