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The Quantum Magician
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"The Quantum Magician" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
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I was obsessing over the Puppet / Numen dynamic for much of the story and it wasn't until the job was in its last stages that I actually realised how simple the story really was.
Despite the breakdown of the Sub-Saharan Unions ship names in chapter six and the scattered reminders throughout the book of the Union chafing under the patronage of the Congregate I didn't realise this was a story of colonial rebellion. Effectively Africa wanting to be unshackled from Europe.
(view spoiler)
Science fiction has for a long time dealt with racial and colonial issues in analogy, with metaphors, and by the use of aliens, but we don't get any of that here. I really like how The Quantum Magician embraces historically contentious issues and adds to it with new inhuman power dynamics to explore.
A conman of Afro-colombiano descent being hired by the militant wing of a colonised people in their fight for freedom is THE story but I couldn't see the wood for the trees as I was distracted by the idea of humans with computers for brains, whale human hybrids, an AI that thinks its a saint, and the folly of humans that set themselves up as gods. Not the most accurate descriptions of what's included in this story but whatever.
In addition to those delightful distractions there was the whole time travel thing which I never forgot about.
Whether you want to deep dive into the colonial aspects, pontificate about who gets to define who you are as an individual, or bob along on the surface with Stills and Marie's hijinks... You can pull from this brilliant story as much or as little as you like and still find it an enjoyable read.
Looking forward to talking about Puppets and Numen!
Sorry to say, I had to dnf this one. I had to repeat more and more chapters because I found myself thinking of everything else but the story while listening. I couldn't get into it and became rather bored. So after 65% it's a clear case of 'not for me'.
I just finished the book this afternoon. In many ways, I enjoyed it very much, but some things not so much. Ryan, you really called it on the time travel aspect. That got right by me, until it showed up at the end.I really loved the different types of humanity and how they got that way--the homus quantum, the homus eridani, the homus pupa, and all the heritages of the characters from their earth-origins. That was one of my favorite aspects of the book.
The plot was so convoluted that it lost me multiple times. Luckily, as a reader I value (in this order) quality of writing, characterization, world-building, plot, background ideas. So although the plot was a head-scratcher for me and the "thought experiment" totally lost me as a non-science reader, I got a ton out of the writing (not great but very good, and nicely pared-down--plus the dialogue exchanges between Marie and Still cracked me up), the characters (loved the main character and his tormented, torn self, loved Still, was nauseated by the puppets--and loved a lot of the other characters, too--thought they were very skillfully drawn), the world-building (amazing)--all that went a long way with me. I'm glad I read this book. The science might be too daunting for me to continue the series. I have consulted my particle physicist
son-in-law. Maybe if he sits at my elbow and explains it all to me. . . .nah. . . .
This wasn't a good one for me to listen to. Kept getting distracted and missing things. Did not care for the voice interpretations of the different characters by the narrator. I really need to eye read this one of these days.
Ryan wrote: "I love this book for tricking me into thinking that it was complicated. It was so easy to get caught up in the genetic modifications that humanity has gone through as Belisarius assembled his team...."I agree it is a book which turns out to be a simple heist story, but full of bells and whistles, like an overdressed guest wearing a fabulous tuxedo at a backyard barbecue!' I think it was very speculative in science and inventive with the uses of that science, and fun to read!
The Puppets are the most interesting 'humans' to me - and scary. What a wrong turn it is to invent them as a new race of people! Saint Mathew was a very hilarious character, particularly when he was being teased by Maria. Stills was another funny tongue-in-cheek character as well - we record whales and fish all of the time, and we don't have a clue what they are saying!
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "we record whales and fish all of the time, and we don't have a clue what they are saying!"One can only hope they're a little more high-minded in their discourse than the eridiani are. ;)
I read this book a while ago and found it refreshing at a time when so much of the SF being published is just one-thing-after-another. The Quantum Magician is thematically rich, and along with some stunning science, it explores the social implications of the genetically-modified races it describes. But it's not an essay or sermon--far from it. To explore all the issues Künsken touches on within an entertaining heist story is brilliant.
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I... love the Puppets? What a great back story! Being told that they were despised and seeing them through Bel's perspective of merely living as their genes demand convinced me of their victimhood. It really opened me up to the slap in the face that was how they behave around Numen. As bad as I felt for the terminally ill fall guy, William, I thought the Numen got what they deserved and can only applaud Künsken for this well thought out experiment. I'd give the story five stars for this aspect alone.
The homo Quantus didn't blow my mind in the same way, but they were still really cool.
The Numen and Puppets make perfect sense, as do the homo quantus, but I'm holding judgement on the homo iridnae because we weren't given a reason that (satisfactorily) explains their existence (to me). A whale human hybrid? Why would anyone want to do that to themselves? I'm hoping we get something more focused on their civilisation later in the series that makes being one of them an appealing prospect or why scientists would want to create them. Stills is cool and definitely one of the many highlights to the book, a much needed counterbalance to the grimness of what was going on with the Puppets, but I definitely need a plausible reason for their creation and the sustainability of their community.
For all the post/sub human stuff, I think the factions within 'regular' humanity was excellently handled. Highlighting the colonial past (present and future) of France was everything I could have hoped for. I know Künsken has worked for years in Africa, but it was still a pleasant surprise to see how deftly he handles contemporary racial tensions in the series. I've been eager to talk to another Black SFF geek about this to no avail thus far.
2. What did you think of the plot?
I liked the plot. It had everything we come to expect from a heist story and it was done well.
We're introduced to Belisarius at the end of a con and then propositioned for another. He looks into the client and the job, figures out a plan and the team he'll need to execute it. He assembles the team one member at a time giving us an opportunity to see their expertise and then it's just more prep work, the execution, and the expected twist. Not that the details of the twist were expected, just that there was going to be a twist. The inclusion of members with dubious is another staple of heist storiesFailing to do any of this would have been a (possibly unforgivable) deviation from the heist formula.
There's a lot more to the story than this, but that's all world building, background, and set up for the series.
3. Did you find any of the thought experiments/philosophical/religious discussions thought provoking or tedious?
Which?
I found it all thought provoking... Bels resentment for being created as he was and Cassandra not caring about why they were created, but appreciating that they were was interesting to me. It reminded me of my Doctor and Engineer friends who were forced into their professions by their demanding parents. It doesn't matter that they're good at their jobs, they still chafe at not being able to choose their own path. So yeah, Bels frequent comments bemoaning his situation resonated with me. I'm used to engaging with debates about the importance of intent and when people's motivations don't matter, but rather the outcome of their actions.
The religious discussions in regard to The Puppets and Numen intrigued me much more than that of St Matthew and his mission though.
4. What worked or didn't for you?
Everything worked for me except Marie's brief spell of psychoanalysis. She really wasn't saying anything profound or insightful about Stills and Bel, but maybe I'm talking from a position of intellectual privilege.
5. Overall thoughts?
Its Ducking Awesome! I hope I get The Quantum War through netgalley this week because I've worked myself up now and don't want to wait another month.
I thought St. Matthew was hilarious--especially when he decides to change his Caravaggio face to make it grin. Just have to add that.
I had a lot of trouble getting into (and staying into) this one. I might have enjoyed it a little more in print, but I think in general this is just one of those “not for me” stories. My rating will show as 2 stars here, so I just wanted to note that I actually rated it at 2.5 stars but chose to round down on Goodreads.1. What do you think about the different types of humanity?
They were creative and the concepts were interesting, especially when first introduced, but the characters themselves didn’t do much for me.
2. What did you think of the plot?
It didn’t hold my attention well. I think, to enjoy a heist story, I need to be much more invested in the characters and/or the goal than I ever became with his book.
3. Did you find any of the thought experiments/philosophical/religious discussions thought provoking or tedious? Which?
Mostly tedious. Some of it was initially interesting, but I thought it got pretty heavy-handed. I prefer the style of writing where the author presents interesting situations to make the reader think but doesn’t try to force us into those thoughts. Present the concepts, then let the reader use their own brain to generate their own philosophical thoughts if they feel inspired.
4. What worked or didn't for you?
Aside from the aforementioned philosophizing, I swear I spaced out of every chapter featuring the scarecrow and the characters supporting him. I gave up trying to rewind and re-listen, because I just could not keep my attention on it. This is one reason I think I might have enjoyed it a little more in print; I absorb information better that way, whether I'm enjoying it or not. On the other hand, it's easier to get through an audiobook because the narrator keeps plodding along and doesn't pause to wait for me when my mind wanders. I know several elements of this story went over my head (or in one ear and out the other) due to poor attention. I’ve felt like my audio listening skills have improved a lot this year, but this audiobook made me feel like a horrible audio listener again.
I did laugh at some of the humor, especially between Marie and Stills, which may be indicative of a lack of refinement on my part! Most of the elements were interesting to me when initially presented, but just failed to come together as a story that held my attention or as characters whose fate I cared about, except maybe William a little bit.
5. Overall thoughts?
I didn’t care much for The Quantum Thief either, so when the group gets to The Quantum Priest and The Quantum Fighter, I might sit them out. ;)
(Lest I confuse anybody, The Quantum Thief is a completely unrelated book by a different author on our group shelf. As far as I know, there are not yet any quantum priests or fighters. I’m just being silly.)
I’ve never read such drivel in my entire life. I won’t bother to answer the questions. It’s not worth my time.There is no logic to the plot and no objective that makes any sense. We are treated to a steady stream of silliness — weird names for planets, warships, subspecies and magical powers. I’ve watched Saturday morning cartoons that made more sense.
There are no characters about which to care. None of them have qualities to admire. None of them is on a personal quest worth caring about.
I thought it might end with Belasarius morphing into something like a “base human.” Perhaps the message might be: centuries of experimenting with the human biome had brought nothing but dictatorship, warfare and caste-ridden societies. We might have been treated to that lesson — a relevant one at the dawn of gene splicing technologies. But, no. Instead, we get a brief smoochy scene that suggests the rekindling of a teenage love affair.
I don’t know how anyone can take this book seriously.
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https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status...
I feel that this book does a terrific job in setting up the question of what needs to happen for a formerly colonised people to truly be free. This isn't quite the crowd for that conversation though.
Seems completely appropriate to me. That is what it’s about, and that’s his background, too.
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That's a good appeal, Allison, that should be stated for all BotM discussions. In the past I often left discussions for books I liked, cause folks saw the need to go into a rant about why they didn't like it/found it problematic.
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The science element felt like magic but it was consistently implemented throughout so I was able to suspend my disbelief. The genetics part was I think the highlight, given the authors background in genetics. We had a really good discussion in the VBC about all of that. I think this is a really good companion read to Blindsight as they both take different approaches to similar questions around human intelligence, society, being "different" from vanilla humans and AI.
How did everyone feel about the different races? Plausible? Did the puppets disgust, fascinate or other you?
I wasn't going to say anything here, because I can't really talk about a book I didn't read properly, but I want to say that the discussion both here and in VBC yesterday made me think that I should probably try eye-reading this later. I hated the audiobook so much I couldn't even pretend to try to concentrate on it, and gave up at around 30% and just let it blast on 3x to the end in my vicinity. Listening to people talk about it yesterday it was shocking how little I'd taken in XD Well not really, I didn't expect to absorb it while not paying attention on 3x, but usually I pick up at least *something* when I soft DNF* a book. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that based on the discussion I should've liked this book, and I think this might be one of those cases where the audio narrator made it impossible for me to even try to connect with the book. Looking at this thread, I might not be the only one? I see at least three other people who say they listened to the audiobook and didn't end up liking it?* I can't truly DNF, but I can mark it as "read" if I've technically "read" all of it, ie. been in the same room while the audiobook played. I don't mark them as DNFs, but I know what those books are, and I don't even pretend I properly read them.
It seems to me that when audiobook readers and eye-book readers talk about a book, they are talking about a different experience, at least to some extent. Audiobooks are at least partly performance art--and the eye-book reader doesn't share that perspective. Eye-book readers have the time to savor a passage, go back to re-read a puzzling passage, etc--more easily, anyway. But the same words get to the brain, just by different avenues. I imagine we could have a similar discussion about native readers of a book and those who read a translated version. In the end, each one of us makes the book our own. In this discussion, though, I've been a bit frustrated with audiobook listeners and eye-readers and the different perspectives they may have about a book that requires (or did, at least for me) very close attention. Any thoughts about that are welcome.
YouKneeK wrote: "2. What did you think of the plot?It didn’t hold my attention well. I think, to enjoy a heist story, I need to be much more invested in the characters and/or the goal than I ever became with his book."
As mentioned in the VBC, as of 40% this is my take on it. Marie and Stills were particularly obnoxiously one-note (as of this part of the story). I was hoping that maybe the other elements would soften my complete disinterest in heist stories, but once we gathered our crew and started the prep for the job, my brain checked out and I had trouble reading more than a page or two of it at a time. (Part of a generalized reading malalise that was especially unhelpful in this case.)
I liked Belisarius--almost despite myself, sometimes--and Matthew, and Cassandra, and was enjoying the thoughtful or philosophical conversations here and there. And I'm always up for SF with an anti-colonialist theme, so things are looking pretty good for me getting back to it sometime... maybe skimming or gritting my teeth through the heist-y parts. :D
ETA: also, Allison, I appreciated you explaining the Sherlock Holmes-like aspects of the quantum humans in some detail in the VBC, since I hadn't entirely understood where the connection was coming from from your previous comments along those lines.
Jane, excellent point, which probably deserves its own thread!(Although I am firmly in the camp that audiobooks are reading, but I do agree that listening and eye-reading are different experiences.)
Allison, are you busy or can you start that thread? :)
Here's the thread: Interpreting books - print, audio, and translation
Allison wrote: "How did everyone feel about the different races? Plausible? Did the puppets disgust, fascinate or other you?"I had some skepticism about the homo quantus concept most of all, I think. Not so much the genetics of it, because I don’t know enough about genetics to say with any confidence what is or is not plausible. My issue was with the idea of anybody thinking it was a good idea. Speaking only about appeal rather than realism, it’s more plausible to me that people would want to install computer implants that would interface with their brain. Something that would enable them to think and analyze things faster, and store/retrieve data and memories more effectively, while still maintaining control of the human personality and the human decision making process. To instead let a computer-like personality essentially take over, supplanting the human personality and making its own decisions, didn't strike me as the sort of situation anybody would want to engineer. I don’t remember if we were told what the original goal was though, so I guess it’s possible the original engineers didn’t quite get what they were aiming for.
The puppets mostly “othered” me, I guess. :) I was definitely disgusted during some of the later scenes with the puppets and William, but I think I was more disgusted with their creators and felt kind of sorry for the puppets. I found the whole thing to be uncomfortable, though. I could have done with less "nature of divinity" philosophizing which I feel has been done to death in science fiction, but I did think this was a creative way to approach the subject.
Anna wrote: "the audio narrator made it impossible for me to even try to connect with the book. Looking at this thread, I might not be the only one?"
I did have some issues with the audio narrator. The sound of his voice and the way he read some of the text reminded a little too much of my mother’s second husband, who had… issues, and was also a compulsive liar, making some uncomfortable associations for me with the main character who was also telling a lot of lies. Her husband was more likely to be the one taken in by a confidence man though, rather than to be the confidence man. I can be pretty good at separating emotional reactions from logical reactions, so I don’t think it played a huge role in my opinion about the book, but I’m sure it had some impact.
My less subjective audio complaint was the constant speed changes when voicing characters in a “savant” or “fugue” state, or when Stills was speaking. It did give a good audio reminder of their altered states, or their altered communication method, but it made me feel impatient. I sped up the audio a bit (only to 1.3x), but speed increases don’t help with variable speeds since you get used to the faster speed of the normal pace and the slower pace still feels slow by comparison.
Although I think I might have liked this a little more in print than I did in audio, I still think I would have rated it pretty low. I could tell pretty early in the audiobook that this was the type of story that typically doesn't appeal to me. I realize this isn't really cyberpunk, but it triggered a similar reaction in me that I typically have with cyberpunk.
I’ll save my more general thoughts on audio vs print for the new thread, after I have time to think them through and type up another novella-length post. :)
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Wow, reading the community's comments, I also was struck by the fact that many of the people who said they didn't like The Quantum Magician or couldn't finish it had listened to the audiobook rather than reading the text. As an audiobook narrator myself (NOT the one who did this book), I find that very interesting. Maybe there were too many technical or exotic terms/names that made people tune out. Or the complexity wasn't conveyed well verbally, which is a special skill too. I may have to check out the audiobook to compare!
Very interesting observation, Scott. I’m wondering the same, or something similar.
Scott wrote: "Wow, reading the community's comments, I also was struck by the fact that many of the people who said they didn't like The Quantum Magician or couldn't finish it had listened to the audiobook rathe..."I think the audiobook was a bad choice for me for this book. I did tune out some of the technical items and explanations which made it harder to follow. I wasn't about to rewind and try to find the explanations I had missed either.
Looks like a great read! It's on my TBR and this discussion made me want to read it right away! :)
Took me ages to finish listening to this book (T. Ryder Smith narrated Recorded Books). I had a very hard time with the first half of the book. I absolutely believe that the technical contact and the monitor nature of describing the fugue state and the technical contact contributed to my disinterest. And I concur with others that there’s a very big difference between listening to an audiobook (performance) and eye reading a printed book. That said, the characters really grew on me throughout the story. Bel in particular, though I continued to be unsure of him because was a conman. Matt and Cassandra were likable, but I enjoyed the narrator’s voices for Marie and Stills the most. Marie made me laugh out loud several times, and I enjoyed her quirkiness.
The heist isn’t my normal read, so that was novel for me, in a good way.
Tell us everything you think!
Some questions to get us started:
1. What do you think about the different types of humanity?
2. What did you think of the plot?
3. Did you find any of the thought experiments/philosophical/religious discussions thought provoking or tedious? Which?
4. What worked or didn't for you?
5. Overall thoughts?
Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions
Continue discussing the series here: Series: Quantum Evolution