What Are We Reading? 5 July 2021

[MK]

scarletnoir wrote: "Sandya wrote: "I will give the show a shot since I have a subscription to Britbox..."

Despite my aversion to religion, I find the Father Brown TV series amusing enough - it's not exactly subtle, b..."

I'll put in a plug for a monk from the 12th Century. After finishing the final (insert teardrop here) Cadfael mystery, I happened to find a library book and am now reading the third and final short story in the book.

Who would have thought that a monk would serve as the lead character in a 'police procedural'? But what can be better than learning history in a mystery series at the same time?

Note--TV adaptations are just not for me. I have a hard time sitting through the news.

[AB76]

Machenbach wrote: "FAO @AB76
I think I recall you pointing out Frances Stonor Saunders's article 'The Suitcase' in the LRB. You might like to know (if you don't already) that the book - [book:The Suitcase: Six Attemp..."

good memory Mach and thanks for this, will google it now

[AB76]

Machenbach wrote: "Andy wrote: "Rock Crystal by Adalbert Stifter, translated by Marianne Moore. Rock Crystal by Adalbert Stifter
This is a wonderful way to spend an hour, engrossed in a seemingly simple tale of two c..."

i also have "Motley Stones" on my pile from NYRB, recently published Stifter selection

[Sandya]

MK wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Sandya wrote: "I will give the show a shot since I have a subscription to Britbox..."

Despite my aversion to religion, I find the Father Brown TV series amusing enough - it's n..."

I have read and watched the entire series! These are wonderful books! I dont mind the religion at all, though I do not like asceticism and have no use for the monastic/ascetic life. I was filled with horror when I first learned about anchorites and anchoresses many years ago. What a waste of life to wall yourself up and do nothing but pray. Cadfael is a complex and interesting character because at least he had a life before the monastery, unlike, say, a child oblate. What a horrible practice!

[MK]

New photo up.

[Sandya]

scarletnoir wrote: "Sandya wrote: "I will give the show a shot since I have a subscription to Britbox..."

Despite my aversion to religion, I find the Father Brown TV series amusing enough - it's not exactly subtle, b..."

I watched 3 episodes of the new Father Brown back to back last night. In every single one, selected at random, Lady Felicia discovers the corpse with a resounding scream. I am already tired of her. Surely she cannot discover every single corpse? What does she add to the stories? I did enjoy "The Wrong Shape" and appreciated the "Eastern religion" portrayed. Nice Ganesh statue..... Obviously about Thalidomide. Will probably watch others but I found the village scenario tedious-I could not have tolerated that much gossip, snooping, and petty meanness.

[Sandya]

scarletnoir wrote: "Sandya wrote: "One of the things I love about Caltech where I worked for nearly a decade: no frats and no religious groups allowed on campus, unlike most US universities."

Very good - I didn't kno..."

Whatever the distinction between a cult and a religion, they should all be banned from recruiting on university campuses. I remember the CU (The Christian Union) had a presence on campus when I was at uni. They exploit the insecurities of young people in order to harvest souls.

[Slawkenbergius]

Machenbach wrote: "
Ha! It's just 'mate' or 'buddy' or something like that I guess. Also 'byti"

From the colloquial butt, surely.

[Bill]

Sandya wrote: "In every single one, selected at random, Lady Felicia discovers the corpse with a resounding scream.."

I don't recall a Lady Felicia in any of the Fr. Brown stories I've read (or indeed any significant female characters in any books I've read by GKC). Perhaps @SydneyH, who appears to have read all or most of the stories knows whether she appears in any of them.

[AB76]

Sandya wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Sandya wrote: "One of the things I love about Caltech where I worked for nearly a decade: no frats and no religious groups allowed on campus, unlike most US universities."

Very..."

i am not sure they are that cynical are they?
i'm very relaxed on religion from my soft Anglican heritage and can see a lot of good that religious groups can do(minus the biblical literalism that is a cancer in the USA)
Or do you mean these kinds of fundamental groups?

[AB76]

MK wrote: "New photo up."

lovely photo

[Andy]

I do miss TLS, and it’s wider field of contributors; there was usually someone who had read what I’d just finished, and wanted to discus it. With Argentinian literature it was often Dandy, and I’ve just finished two I know he’d have an opinion on.
Ema, the Captive by César Aira, translated by Chris Andrews.
This is a type of surreal Western in the mold of the likes of McCarthy and McMurty, a series of spectacular scenes as a wagon train travels through the Argentinian pampas in the 1800s. In the first half of the novel Ema is surviving amongst a group of prisoners (the cargo) travelling between Forts in dreadful conditions, many are barely alive.
But these often horrific scenes, reminiscent of Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West, give way to a more gentle second half, as Ema manages to survive, with her baby, and takes charge of a type of battery pheasant farm.
From the violence of a frontier mentality to vivid descriptions of the nature encountered, this is a difficult novel to pin down, but nonetheless entertaining.
Aira himself is difficult to pin down, and currently my favourite author to read, just completely unpredictable. This was an early novel of his, published in 1981, and a rare foray into historic fiction, as was An Episode in the Life of a Landscape Painter. There are some of his trademarks I am coming to recognise; a spinkle of horror, and an element of surreality but in his own style of quirk; oddness with a subtle blend of humour.
Not his best by some means, but as ever, great to read the ‘famous magician’.

And, The Invention of Morel by Adolfo Bioy Casares, translated by Suzanne Jill Levine.
An escaped convict, innocent of the crime he was accused of, hides away on a remote Pacific island, but his isolation is interrupted by a boatload of tourists. He hides, but becomes paranoiac, particularly so when he discovers that these people, may not exist at all, but projections, or 3D images, created by the scientist, Morel.
The concept of a screen image being mistaken for an actual person is one that must have seemed quite impossible, pure stuff of science fiction on the book's publication in Argentina in 1940, but now, 81 years later, is far more believable.
The fugitive's paranoia is a key part of the first half of the book, but Casares weaves in romance as the story proceeds, more specifically, infatuation. Rather than face an inconvenient and unwelcome reality, Morel is happy to exist in his self-created fantasy world.

[AB76]

Andy wrote: "I do miss TLS, and it’s wider field of contributors; there was usually someone who had read what I’d just finished, and wanted to discus it. With Argentinian literature it was often Dandy, and I’ve..."

I'm a big fan of Cesar Aira, he seems to have a welter of short and original novels in translation and is probably the greatest living Argentinian author, right now with Piglia gone. I am a major fan of Argentine literature, have you read any Sabato Andy, i think you would enjoy "The Tunnel"

The variety is strong with Argentina too, there is a mix of fantasy puzzles and otherwordly stories (writers like Borges, Ocampo and Cortozar)next to the more existentalist works of Sabato and Arlt and the later writers like Piglia,Puig and others. Dont forget the Uruguayan writer Onetti, who based a lot of his fiction in Buenos Aires

If you get time, the major Argentinian classic from the 19th century is Amalia by Jose Marmol. It is frickin superb...

I agree about the wider field we picked up on Guardian TLS...

[Andy]

Anne wrote: "Hello everyone. This is to let you know that I've volunteered to share Ersatz duties with Lisa, so that she has some back-up. Lisa has to grant me moderator status so that I can put up a new thread..."

Thanks Anne, great news.

[Andy]

Cheers AB.
I’ll look up ‘Two Bachelors’.
Mainly eReader yes, but quite a few used books from internet, trying to make an effort to get to shops more often, and occasionally OpenLibrary.

[Andy]

Yes indeed. You recall it well Bill.

[Andy]

AB76 wrote: "Andy wrote: "I do miss TLS, and it’s wider field of contributors; there was usually someone who had read what I’d just finished, and wanted to discus it. With Argentinian literature it was often Da..."

Cheers AB.
I’ll get onto those recommendations. Any Onetti you would recommend? When I worked in Chile we would travel once a year to Montevideo to Stella Maris for rugby. That was the team of old boys involved in the crash. I liked the city, but not as much as BA.

Other Argentinian authors I’d recommend..
Ricardo Romero (Presidents Room)
Carlos Busqued (Terrible Sun)
Selva Almada (Wind That Lays Waste)
Gabriela Camara Cabezon (Slum Virgin)
Agustina Bazterrica (Tender is the Flesh)
Norah Lange (People In The Room)
Claudia Pineiro (Betty Boo)
Sergio Olguin (Fragility of Bodies)
Guillermo Saccomanno (The Clerk)

[[deleted user]]

Thank you for the kind words, all. Except for MB. I'm gonna moderate the arse off of him.

[AB76]

Andy wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Andy wrote: "I do miss TLS, and it’s wider field of contributors; there was usually someone who had read what I’d just finished, and wanted to discus it. With Argentinian literature it..."

Thanks for your tips Andy

As for Onetti, i think No Mans Land (Tierra de Nadie)
http://www.agenciabalcells.com/en/aut...
is a good place to start. Its a BA set novel, with quite a stark feel to it. A Brief Life is also a great read, though its more obscure, i think Vargas Llosa is the closest modern latin American writer to Onetti, in the use of multiple narrators and sudden changes of scene.

Thats interesting about Chile,the Chilean novelists are all worth reading, i think i have already mentioned Coloane,"Tierra Del Fuego" who writes about Patagonia in much the same way London wrote about the Yukon and Alaska. Certainly reading Coloane, i am reminded that Patagonia had as diverse immigrant settlers as the Canadian gold rush locations but less numerous and minus the gold!

[AB76]

Andy wrote: "Cheers AB.
I’ll look up ‘Two Bachelors’.
Mainly eReader yes, but quite a few used books from internet, trying to make an effort to get to shops more often, and occasionally OpenLibrary."

e-reading is a godsend for travellers like you i bet! You can travel "light" with 20 books waiting for you on the kindle.

my mistake with the Stifter title, its "The Bachelors" but a brilliant little story

[SydneyH]

Bill wrote: "I don't recall a Lady Felicia in any of the Fr. Brown stories"

No, she doesn't appear in the stories.

[SydneyH]

Andy wrote: "I do miss TLS, and it’s wider field of contributors; there was usually someone who had read what I’d just finished"

We had a nice chat about the Invention of Morel when I read it, if you are interested: https://www.theguardian.com/books/boo...
@Ongley was a big advocate.

[Tam]

My thoughts at the moment are with the poor folks who have either died, or been washed out their homes, in Belgium, the Netherlands, and seemingly most badly affected, in Western Germany. Stuff happens I guess, but 'climate change' and its effects are coming home to roost, in many spasmodic, and somewhat random, ways. It has put discussing (most) fictional plots a bit lower down the priority list of what I am thinking about, usefully, right now.

I wish all affected the very best that they can come by. Much as I wish those in N California the very best whilst being threatened by an excess of heat and fire. There is a weird kind of balancing act I think, as to what might be imagined, and what is actually real, and happening right now, and to where our collective 'humane' priorities, or even possibly responsibilities, would, could, or should, actually lie...

I wish them as well as I can...

[Berkley]

AB76 wrote: "i think Akutagawa for me is the most interesting character of the Japanese greats, his short stories are essential reading, though maybe Yukio Mishima takes the biscuit as a tortured soul"

I'll most likely read them in roughly chronological order so Akutagawa should be one of the first I'll get to. I've always meant to read Rashomon some day, anyhow, like I imagine most people who have seen the film.

[Berkley]

Georg wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Query for Georg:

What is the correct German pronounciation for Doblin. Is it:
Doabelun or Dobleen or something else?

Secondly, the pronunciation of ich as eeesch is standard german i..."

I remember when I spent a month or so in Gemany in 1993, I never was able to master the ch sound - 'ich' usually came out as 'ish' and if I tried for a more correct pronunciation I wasn't always understood so I fell back on that, since at least then people knew what I was trying to say.

I sometimes wonder if the anglophone inability to pronounce things like the German or Scottish ch, or to roll our R's properly, makes our attempts to speak other languages sound like baby-talk, or perhaps Elmer Fudd saying "you wascawy wabbit" to Bugs Bunny.

[Berkley]

Sandya wrote: "I was horribly shocked when the Xtianity in the Narnia stories was pointed out to me at age 18-I loved them as a child but I don't feel the same about them now (and prefer Tolkien). I read "Till We Have Faces", disliked it intensely, and have never had any use for the rest of CSL's stuff."

I had a similar experience with Narnia: loved the first book when I read it as a younger child, but there was a gap of a few years before I was able to find the next in the series and by that time - I think I would have been in my mid-teens - the Christian allegory felt so obvious and over-heated, it put me off continuing.

And the fact that these were children's books made them feel all the more reprehensible - almost dishonest, in a way - as opposed to something like Pilgrim's Progress or even Lewis's own SF trilogy.

I intend to go back read the whole thing one of these days, though - but more as an interesting stage in the development of literary fantasy.

The sad thing is, I think Lewis writes really well in other respects: he knew how to put words together to create the effect he wanted and also in a way that flows nicely to the ear. It's too bad I find his ideas and his bigoted religious and chauvinistically sexist attitudes so deplorable.

[CCCubbon]

Berkley wrote: "Sandya wrote: "I was horribly shocked when the Xtianity in the Narnia stories was pointed out to me at age 18-I loved them as a child but I don't feel the same about them now (and prefer Tolkien). ..."
I did not read these as a child, don’t think they were published but did read TLTWATW to a class of 9 year olds once and was taken aback by the emphasis on religion, finished the book but never read another , thought it verged on indoctrination.

[Robert]

Lewis never claimed not to be a Christian; it isn't surprising that when he dealt with epic myth, he included Christian tropes.

[Berkley]

Robert wrote: "Lewis never claimed not to be a Christian; it isn't surprising that when he dealt with epic myth, he included Christian tropes."

Not to an adult or even to some children after a certain age, no - that's why I would draw a distinction between Narnia and Lewis's science-fiction trilogy.

And I thnk there's a difference between including Christian tropes and the kind of thinly-veiled preaching Lewis was doing: Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and the entire fictional mythology he developed around it certainly isn't uninfluenced by his Christianity but its presence in isn't nearly as obtrusive as in Lewis's fantasy.

[CCCubbon]

Robert wrote: "Lewis never claimed not to be a Christian; it isn't surprising that when he dealt with epic myth, he included Christian tropes."
The children all liked the book, the school in east London a mixture of faiths,. I can only say that is how the book came over to me and why I did not read any more of the series.

[AB76]

Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i think Akutagawa for me is the most interesting character of the Japanese greats, his short stories are essential reading, though maybe Yukio Mishima takes the biscuit as a tortured s..."

yes, akutagawa wrote a lot in the 1920s and Rashamon is a superb short story

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "Lewis never claimed not to be a Christian; it isn't surprising that when he dealt with epic myth, he included Christian tropes."

yes, Lewis was a Anglican of strong faith, re-discovering it after many years as a child of resisting the call. He is possibly one of the best Protestant writers on religion in the Anglo-Saxon world.

Tolkien, his fantasy writing friend was also very religious, but from the Catholic side of the fence

[AB76]

Age is a funny thing, at 45 i find myself embracing more things i rejected in my teens.

Coming from a francophile family over two generations, holidays in Corsica(all the family spoke french, english was barely understood in the 80s down there), i was resolute as i reached 16 in rejecting a lot of french culture and turning to the Germanic/Central European culture i loved, while paradoxically still finding 40% of my cultural life infused with french norms

Now, as i hit that kind of deep middle age, France is resurgent on every level, its a country that fascinates me more now not for the holidays or the weather or the sights but the travails of this country since 1789, its numerous upheavals and its strange link to misty, foggy Protestant England. I am not sure how that link works but its there, probably less violent than between 1688 and 1815!!

[CCCubbon]

AB76 wrote: "Age is a funny thing, at 45 i find myself embracing more things i rejected in my teens.

Coming from a francophile family over two generations, holidays in Corsica(all the family spoke french, engl..."

45 deep middle age???……..you’re still young, in your prime……

[AB76]

CCCubbon wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Age is a funny thing, at 45 i find myself embracing more things i rejected in my teens.

Coming from a francophile family over two generations, holidays in Corsica(all the family spoke..."

aw, thanks CCC! i never know quite where middle age begins!

[AB76]

The Puritan by Liam O'Flaherty could be the best novel i have read in 2021 so far, with some stiff competition from Power,Wilson and Forster

O'Flaherty has managed a novel of so many perfect combinations, the plot is more of an expressionist staple but its the language and the combination of stark realist horror and genuine comedy that reminds why Irish literature is so strong.

Dublin is a background more than a well defined place, it is weather, lodgings and peoples faces that O' Flaherty defines so well.

A prostitute combing the main characters hair with a fishbone made me laugh out loud just now...will finish it this afternoon

[CCCubbon]

AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Age is a funny thing, at 45 i find myself embracing more things i rejected in my teens.

Coming from a francophile family over two generations, holidays in Corsica(all..."
I think of my children as middle aged and they are all around 60.
You can do anything you want.

[AB76]

I have been impressed at the rate of German history works being translated into english recently, important to see the study of the early to mid 20th century from other perpectives and two such translations are out:

Nazi and Nobles by Stephan Malinowski (tr Jon Andrews)

and

Aftermath: Life in the Fallout of the Third Reich by Harald Jahner (tr Shaun Whiteside)

[Berkley]

AB76 wrote: "the major Argentinian classic from the 19th century is Amalia by Jose Marmol. "

I don't think I ever heard about this book before, such is my ignorance, so now I'm wondering what other 19th century Latin-American classics have I been unaware of all this time?

[Gpfr]

Some may be interested in the latest Slightly Foxed podcast:
Episode 33: The Golden Age of Crime Writing

Diamond Dagger award-winning crime novelist and president of the Detection Club Martin Edwards and Richard Reynolds, crime buyer for Heffers Bookshop and member of the Crime Writers’ Association, lead our investigation in this month’s literary podcast. Together with the Slightly Foxed team, they take a magnifying glass to the Golden Age of crime fiction, tracing its origins to the interwar years when the Detection Club was founded and discussing why the genre continues to thrill.

From relishing The Poisoned Chocolates Case and resurrecting Death of a Bookseller to the mystery of E. C. R. Lorac’s missing manuscript and meeting Baroness Orczy’s Teahouse Detective, the plot twists and turns as we collect British Library Crime Classics and celebrate Crime Queens Agatha Christie, Dorothy L. Sayers, Margery Allingham, Josephine Tey and others along the way. Whether enjoyed as well-crafted puzzles, social documents or guilty pleasures, detective fiction is laced with nostalgia as well as cyanide. To tie up loose ends, we finish with a visit to Agatha Christie’s holiday home, Greenway, a house fit for Hercule Poirot, and the setting of a Devonshire murder hunt in Dead Man’s Folly.

[Georg]

Berkley wrote: I sometimes wonder if the anglophone inability to pronounce things like the German or Scottish ch, or to roll our R's properly, makes our attempts to speak other languages sound like baby-talk

No it doesn't. And the 'ish' is also how the French pronounce it.
Germany has at least ten major dialects, each of them many regional variations. So you could say that most of us mispronounce a lot of things. In Saxony, for example, k, p and t are invariably pronounced g, b and d.

Generally I think people everywhere (with the exception of snotty French waiters) really appreciate the effort. That is all that counts.

My (small-minded) pet hate are American tourists who ask for directions without preceding the question with a polite: "Excuse me, do you speak English?"

And: did you notice how many Germans cannot pronounce th:
'se seater is sis way'

[Georg]

Tam wrote: "My thoughts at the moment are with the poor folks who have either died, or been washed out their homes, in Belgium, the Netherlands, and seemingly most badly affected, in Western Germany. Stuff hap..."

Major flooding is not that uncommon in Germany. The shocking thing this time is that so many lives have been lost.

I am not entirely sure whether this can be attributed to climate change, but if it functions as one of the ever increasing wake-up calls that is more than fine with me.

The most devastating flood in Germany was the 'millenium flood' in July 1342:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mar...

[AB76]

Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the major Argentinian classic from the 19th century is Amalia by Jose Marmol. "

I don't think I ever heard about this book before, such is my ignorance, so now I'm wondering what othe..."

If i can recommend two others they are:

Martin Rivas by Alberto Blest Gana (a chilean classic)
Cecelia Valdes by Cirilio Valleverde (a cuban classic)

These two with Marmol are of the highest standards and give you a picture of the emerging nations they depict.

The Library of Latin America, part of Oxford University Press, is the publisher
https://global.oup.com/academic/conte...

I have read almost all of their catalogue over 18 years

[scarletnoir]

MK wrote: "Note--TV adaptations are just not for me. I have a hard time sitting through the news..."

Pity, since the wonderful Derek Jacobi was a superb Cadfael in the adaptations. He was also brilliant as Claudius in an earlier series based on Robert Graves's I, Claudius, which I have read and enjoyed. (To date, I haven't read the Cadfael books.)

[scarletnoir]

Slawkenbergius wrote: "Machenbach wrote: "
Ha! It's just 'mate' or 'buddy' or something like that I guess. Also 'byti"

From the colloquial butt, surely."

I'm not sure where you are from, but it's not connected to the USA term 'butt' for sure! It is usually spelt with a 'u' rather than a 'y' as Mach had it. Here is an explanation from a linguist:

Butt

Nowadays, butt is widely used as a term of endearment mainly by people living in the Valleys.

But according to the Rhondda Historical Society, the phrase comes from "the miners who worked with a buttie" as "they had to work together to get as much coal extracted within the shift as possible".

Coalfield Web Materials explains in more detail that most south Wales miners were paid for the the amount of coal that they extracted.

It goes on to say that miners would load their coal onto drams to be weighed and they were then paid according to the coal's weight.

The boys would be paid by their butties, the more experienced miner they worked with, but the amount they received depended on the miner himself.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/lifesty...

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "i am not sure they are that cynical are they?"

Well, yes, most of them are - IMO, of course. (Other opinions are available).

It seems to me that organised religions or 'churches' or whatever you choose to call them have been interested in one thing only - power, in one shape or other. This explains the crusades, the 'breeding wars' whereby contraception is banned and polygamy is allowed, and much else besides. There has been historically an 'if you're not with us, you're against us' attitude pervading many (all?) religions. They try to out-compete each other, either by extreme control measures (see the Taliban version of Islam, or the Spanish Inquisition) or by softer measures, selling themselves as 'loving communities' (until you step outside).

I can see that for believers there is a payback in the way of 'eternal life' (in Christianity), and for others the community spirit to be found in the churches, mosques etc. is an attraction - but for me, having to swallow stuff that is, frankly, not believable, makes such a compromise impossible. (Atheists are still being assassinated in Pakistan to this day - and elsewhere, I daresay.)

An example of the sneakiness of some religionists is to be found in the books of CS Lewis, smuggling a Christian message into children's books. I know the author Richard Adams denied that 'Watership Down' had a religious message, but based on the execrable film version, I rather doubt that... At least these people ought to be upfront about their product!

[scarletnoir]

Berkley wrote: "I remember when I spent a month or so in Gemany in 1993, I never was able to master the ch sound - 'ich' usually came out as 'ish' and if I tried for a more correct pronunciation I wasn't always understood so I fell back on that, since at least then people knew what I was trying to say.

I sometimes wonder if the anglophone inability to pronounce things like the German or Scottish ch, or to roll our R's properly..."

I'd agree with Georg that people in general very much appreciate an attempt to speak their language, even badly pronounced .

(I'd also agree with him about French waiters - my French is pretty good in terms of vocabulary and grammar, but I do retain an accent - so that quite often waiters whose English is WAY weaker than my French, will respond to me in English. I play them at their game, and reply in French, so we have an interesting exchange in which neither party is speaking their stronger language!)

One question, though - most English people in my experience can pronounce the Scottish 'loch' perfectly well - is it really the case that you are not able to do so? ...
Actually, having found this irascible Scot explaining how to pronounce it correctly on YouTube, maybe that last assumption was mistaken!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRiWB...

FYI, therefore, the sound made here is the same as that needed to pronounce 'bach' (= 'little') in Welsh, or Abersoch... NOT Abersock! Take your socks home! No, seriously - we feel that most people are not even making an effort. That's what grates. I'm sure it is not your case, though.

[Gpfr]

scarletnoir wrote: "most English people in my experience can pronounce the Scottish 'loch' perfectly well ..."

I would have said the contrary (not that I'm saying I don't believe you) - Loch Lomond, Loch Ness ... all pronouced 'lock' as far as I remember and indeed by me. Though I can and do pronounce the welsh 'ch'.
P.S. Georg is 'her' not 'him' 😉

[Georg]

scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "I remember when I spent a month or so in Gemany in 1993, I never was able to master the ch sound - 'ich' usually came out as 'ish' and if I tried for a more correct pronunciation I ..."

Ha, they employ a different tactic with Germans. You ask for 'un verre de l'eau'. Their eyebrows raise. They give you a very condescending look. You try again. Their facial expression does not change. After the third try they usually take pity and say: 'Aaaaah, un verre de l'eau pour madame!' Making the 'madame' bit sound like an insult.

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i am not sure they are that cynical are they?"

Well, yes, most of them are - IMO, of course. (Other opinions are available).

It seems to me that organised religions or 'churches' or..."

i guess i have benefited from never personally seeing the downsides of religion, my soft anglican uprbringing means i was never under any compulsion to attend church or sunday school, it all felt rather relaxed and easy. However i know if i had been raised Catholic, it would have a more pro-active and tricky dance of belief with the authoirties