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What Are We Reading? 24 May 2021
Currently on the Orkney mainland in the far north west at the Brough of Birsay. A large persuasion into coming here was George Mackay Brown. On the ferry yesterday I finished Greenvoe.
It was one of the books I picked up secondhand in Wigtown. Written in the 1970s and set just a decade or so before that (though it could be any time in the last century, time has in effect stood still), this is the story of a small Orcadian village, the only community on the tiny fictitious island of Hellya, told over 5 successive days, each day with a chapter.
All members of the community are represented, from the wild misogynistic ferryman to the cunning and cruel children and the raucous patrons drinking and singing in the Scorradale Inn. It is an interlinked series of tales with the backbone of one fisherman (turned writer)’s narration; The Skarf reads the history of his island to his neighbours in the bar one evening. Magnus
But there’s a sad and deep sixth chapter, as Hellya meets its destiny, forced by foreign influence into being spoilt and robbed.
Evident as in all his work, are Mackay Brown’s descriptions of simple island life through his hypnotic prose, which verges at times into poetry. The last four pages are particularly powerful and needed, from me at least, a slow re-read.
I’m on the trail of Magnus tomorrow, surely his finest book. For now, sat Beside the Ocean of Time with an eye on the causeway...need to get back before high tide..
Andy wrote: "Currently on the Orkney mainland in the far north west at the Brough of Birsay. A large persuasion into coming here was George Mackay Brown. On the ferry yesterday I finished [book:..."you can get some amazing weather on the western isles in late May/early June. i have had 25c and azure skies many a time, sadly not the same for Orkney or the Shetlands. How is the weather up there?
Can we all finally agree that Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is an honest-to-goodness poet?A poet of my acquaintance was incensed when Bob Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize in literature in 2016. He bridled when the Nobel committee deemed Dylan the creator of “new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition.” “He writes lyrics,” the poet sniffed, perhaps forgetting that the Greek and Romantic lyric poets bore that epithet for a reason, perhaps ignorant of the troubadours as well.
Meanwhile, a middling genre novelist wondered whether Dylan’s Nobel meant that she was eligible for a Grammy, not stopping to consider whether her work occupied a place remotely near Constellation Dylan. And a classical music critic (whose name you will not have heard of) sneered, “They couldn’t find a writer so a musician was the next best thing?”
Dylan, of course, is the lyricist behind some of the best-known songs of our time, evoking T.S. Eliot, watchtowers, God, love, loss, and a thousand other things. He is also a writer pure and simple, those critics notwithstanding.
giveusaclue wrote: "Oh dear, a couple of dnfs:The Dark Angel by Elly Griffiths. I used to really enjoy these but I am finding the fact that each new issue in her relationship with Nelson is spread over two or three..."
I have Elly Griffiths 'Night Hawks' on my hold shelf -
. I am with you when it comes to Nelson, so I will have to see how much I read when it shows up.
Hi all - I've stuck up a poster in photos. Words to live by - as if!
Politics here in the States have quieted down. Earlier this week I mentioned this and was told that Biden is boring. This is such a pleasant change! I have my fingers crossed that the FB ban is forever. In the meantime I downloaded and listened to
John Boehner narrating his memoir. It is worth a read. He isn't a fan of Nancy Pelosi (surprise, surprise), but in addition to the dirt, he also talks about how stuff really gets done in DC.
AB76 wrote: "(I am used to the horribly over-rated Hisham Matar, who has never failed to dissapoint me)"I'm surprised to read this - though of course, not at all offended!
Matar lived through the trauma of having his father 'disappeared' by Quadaffi's Libyan secret service (with the connivance of the Egyptians). It is assumed that he was murdered a few years later in the Abu Salim prison. Matar has written a factual account of this event, his eventual return to Libya, and his search for information about his father's fate in The Return: Fathers, Sons, and the Land in Between. Even better written was a fictional account of the abduction, in Anatomy of a Disappearance. Matar and his brother had to adopt false identities whilst at school abroad, in case...
So Matar certainly knows what he's writing about at first hand. I know nothing about Spina, so won't compare.
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"I am with you when it comes to Nelson..."
Thirded here - I haven't read the latest book yet, but the last one or two I've thought 'oh no, Ruth & Nelson: enough already!'
scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "(I am used to the horribly over-rated Hisham Matar, who has never failed to dissapoint me)"I'm surprised to read this - though of course, not at all offended!
Matar lived through th..."
Spina is of lebanese-maronite descent, educated in italy and libya, he died a few years ago and wrote his series of novels over 40 odd years
The last novel Spina wrote in this series covers the early Gaddaffi years. the novel series spans from 1911-1960s. Spina had many friends imprisoned in the Gadaffii purges nd he was forced to leave the country in 1980, smuggling his novels out in samizdat fashion
If anyone here is interested in Juneteenth, here are book lists - https://www.washingtonhistory.org/eve... (Juneteenth is now a state holiday in WA.)My personal favorite is - The Brightest Day: A Juneteenth Historical Romance Anthology which I have added to my Amazon list which I have to get over the 'ship free' limit as I am not a Prime person.
PS - I'm off to the Washington State History Museum this weekend to check out their 'Early Train Travel in WA - Just the Ticket' exhibit. Love trains!
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When I glanced at your post and saw 'Magnus', I thought you were heading toward Magnus Mills!
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Wow, Bill. Have you come around on this issue?
@Bill: Not only is Dylan a poet, he is for many of us just about the only poet of the last 50-60 years whose lines come instantly to mind. I can’t at the moment think of anyone else in that category. I can read other modern poets with pleasure. The only thing is, their lines don’t stick.
@Slawkenbergius: Like others here I read On the Road ages ago and remember not too much but your longer note beautifully captures what I do recall.
@Paul: I’m afraid I didn’t find The City & The City very appealing. The detective aspect was fine. The dual cities concept was fine. It seemed to me, though, that CM had to work too hard and too visibly to keep the concept going.
@Tam: Great review of The Catcher in the Rye. I responded at a much simpler level when I was a teenager (swept away by the black humour and the fierce alienation). When I read it again a few years ago I was much more struck by the intense sadness of the ending.
@AB76: I loved the short stories of DH Lawrence, in one very fat volume from Everyman. Never read Kangaroo, which has now joined the TBR list. If you don’t already know it, a curiosity of DHL that I like to dip into is Movements in European History. His description of what it was like being a German Barbarian, the sort that destroyed the legions of Varus and cooked their bones, is the best I ever read, echt DHL.
@Slawkenbergius: Like others here I read On the Road ages ago and remember not too much but your longer note beautifully captures what I do recall.
@Paul: I’m afraid I didn’t find The City & The City very appealing. The detective aspect was fine. The dual cities concept was fine. It seemed to me, though, that CM had to work too hard and too visibly to keep the concept going.
@Tam: Great review of The Catcher in the Rye. I responded at a much simpler level when I was a teenager (swept away by the black humour and the fierce alienation). When I read it again a few years ago I was much more struck by the intense sadness of the ending.
@AB76: I loved the short stories of DH Lawrence, in one very fat volume from Everyman. Never read Kangaroo, which has now joined the TBR list. If you don’t already know it, a curiosity of DHL that I like to dip into is Movements in European History. His description of what it was like being a German Barbarian, the sort that destroyed the legions of Varus and cooked their bones, is the best I ever read, echt DHL.
Russell wrote: "It seemed to me, though, that CM had to work too hard and too visibly to keep the concept going.That's a good point, and I think that he was straining against the limits of a thought experiment. In particular at the end with the odd-walking "chase." For me he didn't quite suck the well dry, but I can see how he would have overstayed his welcome for another reader. It's a property with which I've become more patient, because a lot of the best scifi writing is just a noodling, spitballed philosophical question played out to its fantastic ending. Le Guin was the most extreme in following a thought experiment past its logical end, imho, and she's a writer that I had a hard time appreciating at a younger age.
Lljones wrote: "Wow, Bill. Have you come around on this issue?"Posted links do not constitute or imply endorsement.
Given my general indifference to both the popular music and poetry of my lifetime, I guess the two areas might as well be merged as far as I have any personal aesthetic stake in the argument.
But setting aside my personal tastes, I don’t think that the author of the piece (Gregory McNamee) makes a very convincing argument. For one thing, to my mind he does not distinguish adequately between “poems set to music” (which he uses to describe Dylan’s lyrics) and poetry written to be set to music. The former are poems meant to stand by themselves which a composer adapts as a song setting (which I might analogize to a work of literature adapted into a screenplay for filming) and the latter verse which is written with the intention that it receive a musical setting (continuing the analogy, an original screenplay meant to be realized as a film).
Russell wrote: "Not only is Dylan a poet, he is for many of us just about the only poet of the last 50-60 years whose lines come instantly to mind. I can’t at the moment think of anyone else in that category."How about Stephen Sondheim?
Aren’t the lines more memorable because they’re set to music? Doesn’t the music make them more accessible to begin with, so that they get into the mind via the ear in ways contemporary poetry limited to the written word seldom does? I can quote Goethe’s Erlkönig in its entirety, which I would attribute mainly to my exposure to Schubert’s setting of it.
Russell wrote: "@Bill: Not only is Dylan a poet, he is for many of us just about the only poet of the last 50-60 years whose lines come instantly to mind. I can’t at the moment think of anyone else in that categor..."thanks for that tip Russell am about to google "Movements in european history". its amazing how much i disliked Lawrence at 16 when he was being forced down my throat at school, while now he is a favourite of mine.
Some recent books from small independent publishers - A ghost in the Throat , a memoir/ autofiction by the contemporary Irish poet Doireann Ni Ghriofa published by Tramp Press . While bringing a young family, Doireann searches for and tries to connectto the18th century Irish poet Eibhlin Dubh Ni Chonaill who composed, but did not write down, the keen for Art O Laoghaire, about her husband who was assassinated at the behest of English colonists. Doireann' s writing can be incredible in the way she transforms mundane tasks of constantly cleaning up after young children with captivating imagery. In contrast the keen is an unbroken heart wrenching rage, even more powerful if it could be heard rather than read.
The Mermaid of Black Conch by Monique Roffey published by Peepal Tree fell completely flat for me. The diverse range of characters did not even seem that interested in each other, including the mermaid . I kept thinking back to the Wide Saragossa Sea to try to invoke some sense of place.
Hello Friend Missed We Missed You by Richard Owain Roberts Parthian Press - original, amusing and very lightly written to the extent I was easily distracted from it at times.
Now started Night All Blood is Black by David Diop -smallish publisher Pushkin Press- about Senegalese soldiers fighting for their French colonial masters in WW1- harrowing - racism adding another dimension to the brutalisation of the trenches.
Oggie wrote: "Some recent books from small independent publishers - A ghost in the Throat , a memoir/ autofiction by the contemporary Irish poet Doireann Ni Ghriofa published by Tramp Press . While bringing a yo..."some interesting titles there Oggie, thanks
After a run of great diaries for almost 14 months, its come to a bit of a standstill, was enjoying 20th century diaries that mixed philosophical thoughts with everyday lives in an interesting situation:Sartre on the German Front in 1939-40
Serge in exile in Mexico 1940-44
Brandys in Warsaw 1978-81
Malaparte in Paris 1947-48,
Reck in Nazi Germany
Keilson in Nazi occupied Holland
Pla in pandemic threatened Catalonia, 1919
The key is concentrated periods of interesting events, i had moved towards diaries written over a decade or more but have paused and then just now i dusted down a second hand copy in my TBR pile:
The Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker.....thats sounds like a good diary or diaries to read.....
Bill wrote: "How about Stephen Sondheim?"My reference is no doubt too dated. I should rather have said, "How about Lin-Manuel Miranda?"
Bill wrote: "How about Stephen Sondheim?"
My reference is no doubt too dated. I should rather have said, "How about Lin-Manuel Miranda?"
I'm sure you're right about words being more memorable when set to music. For me the best example of Stephen Sondheim would be West Side Story. I've sorry to say I've seen only snippets of L-MM. The other example that did come to mind - please don't throw yourself out the window - is Leonard Cohen.
My reference is no doubt too dated. I should rather have said, "How about Lin-Manuel Miranda?"
I'm sure you're right about words being more memorable when set to music. For me the best example of Stephen Sondheim would be West Side Story. I've sorry to say I've seen only snippets of L-MM. The other example that did come to mind - please don't throw yourself out the window - is Leonard Cohen.
Russell wrote: "The other example that did come to mind - please don't throw yourself out the window - is Leonard Cohen."My wife likes Leonard Cohen, so I've heard a number of his songs multiple times, to the point that I used a line from one as an epigraph on one of my GR reviews.
I will admit to being a fan of all four! Sondheim, Dylan, Miranda and Cohen, though if I had to choose one, it would be Cohen I think, by a gnat's breath...
Berkley wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "So, unlike a good number, Bob Dylan is still with us, fortunately. I tend to regard his earlier songs with most affection"I have a CD of Bryan Ferry's Dyla..."
Currently listening to Make You Feel My Love on itunes as I type. It probably helps that I find him rather sexy in a "mad, bad and dangerous to know sort of way!" 😍
I'll have to find A Hard Rain's.... on youtube.
giveusaclue wrote: "Berkley wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "So, unlike a good number, Bob Dylan is still with us, fortunately. I tend to regard his earlier songs with most affection"I have a CD of Br..."
Let me know what you think - his first two solo records are all covers, xcept for the title track on the 2nd one, "Another Time, Another Place", and I think they're all exceptional, especially the first record, These Foolish Things.
AB76 wrote: "Spina had many friends imprisoned in the Gadaffii purges nd he was forced to leave the country in 1980, smuggling his novels out in samizdat fashion."Presumably, no Libyan novelists could write honestly about the country and stay free (or alive) during that period, unless they went into exile.
If you are at all interested in Czech writers, there is a contrast between the fates of the exile Milan Kundera, who moved to France and ended up writing in French, and the stay-at-home Ivan Klíma whose books could not be published in his homeland.
Edit: I have just seen your comment on diaries - I am not sure if you would be interested in Klíma's memoir My Crazy Century: A Memoir which covers a life, not just a few years - but it does deal with his family's period in Terezin (they were non-observant Jews, not that this saved them), his membership of the Communist party, later disillusion etc. I haven't read it yet - reviews seem mixed - but I do like Klíma's fiction and it's on the TBR list.
scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Spina had many friends imprisoned in the Gadaffii purges nd he was forced to leave the country in 1980, smuggling his novels out in samizdat fashion."Presumably, no Libyan novelists ..."
thanks for the Klima tip Scarlet, i never liked Klima's fiction as much as i expected but he had a very interesting life. Kundera is also hit and miss for me but i have enjoyed a few of his novels.
I agree, they had very different experiences, Klima i think ended up working in menial jobs, as was the fate of many dissidents in Czechoslovakia.
Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker(1964), isnt quite a "diary" but is fascinating reading so farHe opens the history on a stifling hot day on the Polish border, as the Germans prepare to invade Poland. Bekker analyses the Luftwaffe numbers and concludes the myth of their overwhelming superiority was way off, maybe 1,000 planes not 7,000 as the RAF and other sources estimated. However the Polish Air Force was nowhere to be seen in those first days and therefore any air to air combat was avoided, the planes were free to back up the army in short sharp bursts
Stuka crews describe their attacks on polish cavalry units (utter destruction) and there is an insight into the complicated comms systems between the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe.
Bekker blends the testimony of pilots into the narrative well, so in fact it reads like a straightfoward history of luftwaffe combat from 1939-45, so far.
Bill wrote: "Can we all finally agree that Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is an honest-to-goodness poet?A poet of my acquaintance was incensed when Bob Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize in literature in 2016. He brid..."Although I'm genuinely a big fan of Dylan's music, I remain a staunch dissenter on his status as a poet. There is - to me, at least, - a clear distinction between song lyrics and poetry. Song lyrics are driven largely by the rhythm and structure of the music; poetry is driven first and foremost by the language. I'm reading Louis MacNeice's Autumn Journal at the moment, and it's a distinctly different experience from listening to Bob Dylan, or, for that matter, Hamilton.
A better example, perhaps, is the poet and polymath Clive James. His collected poems includes all his poetry, as well as the many blues lyrics that he wrote. James (or his editor) treats these lyrics distinctly from the poetry: they sit in a separate section at the end of the book, and reading them is a very different experience from reading the poetry: because of the style and structure of the verses, one is very aware that one is reading song lyrics, and that one is missing a key ingredient (i.e. the music).
And I really don't think that Dylan's lyrics stand up particularly well without the music. There's a lot of stuff that's fairly trite and a fair amount of meaningless mumbo-jumbo - it all works well with the music, but not always on the page. In my opinion Dylan is a first-rate songwriter, but at best a third-rate poet.
And pace Russell, I don't think that Dylan is at all unique in terms of his lines coming instantly to mind. I think that's equally true of very many other writers of popular music, from Lennon & McCartney through Bernie Taupin, Springsteen and Bono to Jay-Z and Taylor Swift (none of whom would I classify as poets, any more than I would Dylan). It's in the nature of pop lyrics to be memorable.
JayZed wrote: And pace Russell, I don't think that Dylan is at all unique in terms of his lines coming instantly to mind. I think that's equally true of very many other writers of popular music...
Good points, and yet I still think of Dylan as different from those other writers, because in his case the words, to me at least, feel more important than the music. He does have skill as a writer, which anyone who has read Chronicles can confirm, and I think this is no less apparent in his lyrics (great reminder, Bill!). I wouldn’t spend two minutes reading on their own the lyrics of those other, very talented song-writers. In Dylan’s case, without seeking to place him in the same class as say Yeats, I think there is much to ponder in the words on their own, even if you can’t help imagining the rhythm as well. Having said that, you almost persuade me with that other skilful writer, Springsteen.
Good points, and yet I still think of Dylan as different from those other writers, because in his case the words, to me at least, feel more important than the music. He does have skill as a writer, which anyone who has read Chronicles can confirm, and I think this is no less apparent in his lyrics (great reminder, Bill!). I wouldn’t spend two minutes reading on their own the lyrics of those other, very talented song-writers. In Dylan’s case, without seeking to place him in the same class as say Yeats, I think there is much to ponder in the words on their own, even if you can’t help imagining the rhythm as well. Having said that, you almost persuade me with that other skilful writer, Springsteen.
I have no intention of getting deeply into any discussion (let alone argument) about poetry, as I rarely read it... so what follows is a purely personal view with some questions for those who have far more knowledge and expertise in the subject.First question/comment: What are the roots of poetry? I would say that in my mother tongue (Welsh), the roots very obviously lie in an oral tradition - we still have competitions in oral recitation at eisteddfodau - though written poems are highly regarded and the most prestigious prizes are awarded on that basis. So - should (or is?) poetry be split into two categories: oral tradition (sounds and rhythms being as important as meaning), and written tradition (playing around with words on the page)? As far as the oral tradition goes, I have seen performances by such as Roger McGough and Benjamin Zephaniah in English, so it's not at all peculiar to Welsh. I'd assume that the oral/performance tradition has existed for far longer than the written one, for obvious reasons.
Second question: If there is a recognised field of 'oral tradition' in poetry (with or without music), then should not Bob Dylan be recognised as one of its foremost practitioners in the last century (not the only one, obviously)? I'd have thought so, but as always am happy for others to dismiss this view completely.
I have to admit that, either because of my background, or for some unknown genetic reason, I find it far easier to enjoy the oral or sung presentation of poetry than the written version. Welsh poetry in particular makes great play of cynghanedd, which involves several forms of internal rhyme and/or alliteration... so that (for me) sound comes first in my appreciation, words and meaning afterwards - and this also applies to music, in that I respond primarily to the melody, and only later to any lyrics (assuming that I even listen to or understand them). So, it's quite an unusual experience to find that with Dylan, his words carry as much weight as the music - unlike the vast majority of other popular musicians. His music complements his words, and vice versa, with both carrying roughly equal weight.
(A slight clarification - I can enjoy great music with banal words, but could not listen to dull music with great poetry...)
scarletnoir wrote: "I have no intention of getting deeply into any discussion (let alone argument) about poetry, as I rarely read it... so what follows is a purely personal view with some questions for those who have ..."I'm not sure that I'd emphasise the distinction between oral and written tradition - I feel that all poetry is written to be read out loud, declaimed. When I read poetry in bed at night I annoy my wife by muttering the lines aloud, sotto voce - I don't do that when I'm reading prose. I also find that listening to a poem being read well enhances the experience beyond that of reading on the page. I got last year's collection Home by Caleb Femi as an audiobook (read by Femi himself) for that reason.
For me the distinction is between lyrics intended to be sung to music, intrinsically linked to the tune and the rhythm of the music, and poetry which is all about the words, the language itself. If the words don't stand by themselves as a work of art, then it's not poetry (I appreciate that opinions may differ as to whether Dylan's lyrics stand by themselves).
I hope I will be forgiven for being OT, I usually try to avoid that.But it is a sad day when you realise that you might be detained /deported when you attempt to visit a country you love(d). Not so long ago a close neighbour, a friend.
The probability of that happening is extremely low. But that doesn't matter. It is the thought, or rather the thinking behind it, that counts.
I'll have to think of alternatives now for next years holiday. Since the only place I really wanted to go is now a no-go area.
JayZed wrote: "Bill wrote: "Can we all finally agree that Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is an honest-to-goodness poet?A poet of my acquaintance was incensed when Bob Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize in literature in ..."See, that I'm not so sure about. In a former life I did musical theory and composition classes at university, and we learned both to adapt a tract to the music as well as to wrap music around your lyrics. I think most singer-songwriters tend to write the lyrics first and shape the musical composition around the structure of the poetry.
It's good to see you back around these parts, by the way
Georg wrote: "I hope I will be forgiven for being OT, I usually try to avoid that.But it is a sad day when you realise that you might be detained /deported when you attempt to visit a country you love(d). Not ..."
what has occurred Georg? this sounds awful, which country are you speaking of?
JayZed wrote: "Bill wrote: "Can we all finally agree that Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is an honest-to-goodness poet?A poet of my acquaintance was incensed when Bob Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize in literature in ..."The body of work that Dylan has created would place him as a poet in my mind, almost 50 years i think of regular writing. I am not a big fan of poetry at all but love the great lyricists of alternative music.
I did read some Louis McNiece last year, as i'm fascinated with his Ulster poetry but i've never manage to get into most poetry really, i read a lot of plays but poetry mostly leaves me cold. Its odd, cos my mother, uncle and grandfather immersed themselves in poetry and could all quote long sections of the great works
AB76 wrote: "Georg wrote: "I hope I will be forgiven for being OT, I usually try to avoid that.But it is a sad day when you realise that you might be detained /deported when you attempt to visit a country you..."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
For every EU citizen detained at the UK border one year ago there are now well over 100.
I am truly enjoying the discussion around poetry, lyrics and cadence, thanks a lot in particular to JayZed - should we call you Jay-Z ;-)? - and Paul, even as somebody who doesn't really appreciate Dylan (my loss I'm sure; my favourite songwriters are more Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Nick Drake, Suzanne Vega... - and then Barbara, Brel, etc.)@Georg - yes, that is truly appalling the way the hostile environment so dear to Theresa daughter-of-a-vicar May is now extending to EU citizens. I always feel very uncomfortable when I'm at US immigration even if I have nothing to hide, I can imagine this will be the case now for non-residents EU citizens at the UK border too, at least for a while.
Georg wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Georg wrote: "I hope I will be forgiven for being OT, I usually try to avoid that.But it is a sad day when you realise that you might be detained /deported when you attempt to visit ..."
If the UK is really interested in tourist Euros, perhaps it ought to institute an easy visa process . Silly me, that would take a government that knew how to do 'stuff'. And wasn't filled with distain/hate.
Georg wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Georg wrote: "I hope I will be forgiven for being OT, I usually try to avoid that.But it is a sad day when you realise that you might be detained /deported when you attempt to visit ..."
oh dear, where in england or britain were you planning to go?
those figures are really bad, i would imagine there are a lot of officials who are delighted to implement these strict guidelines and to make life difficult for EU citizens. i hear a lot of anti-EU sentiment in all walks of life since 2016.
Paul wrote: "JayZed wrote: "Bill wrote: "Can we all finally agree that Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is an honest-to-goodness poet?A poet of my acquaintance was incensed when Bob Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize in..."As someone who quite often rewrites other peoples poems and lyrics. For instance if I am rewriting the lyrics of a well known song I am not free to do my own thing as I am still constrained by the rhythm and metre of the original. It has to have the right amount of alternative syllables and the lines have to be the right length etc. I do write my own from time to time, but I don't usually get the same kind of satisfaction from them. Maybe some of us are destined to want to be part of a duet, even if unfurled out across aeons of space and time...
I find Bob relatively easy to rewrite, but I have not as yet managed to rewrite Leonard in a satisfactory way. I think it is that Leonard writes in colours and emotions where as Bob is a natural story teller with a very strong sense of rhythm. I do it for fun and I do like the discipline of say concocting a Haiku, its a bit like doing puzzles, but to me straight-forward puzzles lack creativity, so its a kind of sideways puzzle with a creative edge...
I have just looked up Joni Mitchells 'Blue' lyrics and I have to say I don't think I could possibly rewrite them, they are so much her own, I see no point in rewriting them, they are just fine as they are. So maybe it's that a lot of men, and some women as well, those who are more prone to generalising, or story-telling, are the ones whose work is the easiest to subvert to alternative purposes? Anyway its my ha'penny's worth of thoughts on the matter...
Paul wrote: "I think most singer-songwriters tend to write the lyrics first and shape the musical composition around the structure of the poetry."That is the usual practice, but precedence does not imply independence. (I just learned that lyrics produced by the opposite procedure, texts devised for pre-existing melodies, were termed contrafacta in medieval music.) In general, it’s also true that the writing of a screenplay precedes the making of a film, and a libretto an opera, but these are steps in the production of a finished product.
I think it’s noteworthy that W. H. Auden, in specifying opera libretti in his literature syllabus listed them by composer rather than librettist; as a poet and occasional librettist, Auden knew which art was preeminent in the final product.
Georg wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Georg wrote: "I hope I will be forgiven for being OT, I usually try to avoid that.But it is a sad day when you realise that you might be detained /deported when you attempt to visit ..."
A lot in poor old 'blighty' is quite sad these days, its horrible to see those in power trying to extend their own power influence to serve themselves and their friends. You can tell where I am on the political spectrum but I also know there are good people who think, and believe very differently from me, and some are even my friends ...
Berkley wrote: "Let me know what you think - his first two solo records are all covers, xcept for the title track on the 2nd one, "Another Time, Another Place", and I think they're all exceptional, especially the first record, These Foolish Things.reply | flag *
"
I did like These Foolish Things particularly, not so keen on the other two. But Jealous Guy played whilst I was looking, which I really like.
Fancy Jerry Hall throwing him over for Mick Jagger, but then look who she is with now! 😱
Bill wrote: "That is the usual practice, but precedence does not imply independence."Sorry for the abrupt interruption, but there's a re-edition of Herrmann's soundtracks to be released next month, and I know you're a connoisseur.
Bill wrote: "Paul wrote: "I think most singer-songwriters tend to write the lyrics first and shape the musical composition around the structure of the poetry."That is the usual practice, but precedence does n..."
Well, I'm fairly sure that taht is indeed the case for Dylan, Mitchell, Cohen, and to a certain extent Paul Simon, singer-musicians who are captains of their own ships. So, the words bend and meld to match the melody and the rhythmic pulse alters the tilt of the prose all melding organically into a final product. But, in other instances bands with more than one cook in the kitchen, it's often more that the musicians come in with the song and then the singer overlays lyrics atop it. Generally, this might be more likely to be associated with less poetic-type rock music
Bill wrote: A question for the Dylan fans who classify his lyrics as poetry: Have you read Tarantula?
I never did, so can't express a view.
I never did, so can't express a view.
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Communist Manifesto (other topics)Exit (other topics)
The Double Life of Bob Dylan: A Restless, Hungry Feeling, 1941-1966 (other topics)
Salammbo (other topics)
Another Side of Bob Dylan: A Personal History on the Road and off the Tracks (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
A.K. Blakemore (other topics)George Mackay Brown (other topics)
George Mackay Brown (other topics)
George Mackay Brown (other topics)
George Mackay Brown (other topics)
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I'm not going to get into this argument in any major way - especially as I am not certain whether I ..."
Jesper Juul was a familiy therapist, who worked a lot with teenagers and their parents. Puberty is a process that lasts for +/- 8 years.
He suggested to imagine a sign on the door to their room:
"Building works are currently going on involving hormones, brain and other organs. We would like to apologize for the disturbance these will cause and ask for your understanding."
He had a very down-to-earth approach: understand your teenager's behaviour, keep cool, establish borders, If they bring you to the end of your tether, fight back to preserve your sanity. You are as entitled to a temper tantrum as they are. Might even be therapeutic.