Group Reads Discussions 2023: "Elatsoe" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Stephanie]

Edit: This was a buddy read and is now a group book of the month! BOTM discussion starts in post 38.

Elatsoe by Darcie Little Badger was the book chosen by the Amazin' Eights challenge participants for May. All are welcome to join in this thread. Please use spoiler tags and chapter markers :)

[Stephanie]

I've started reading it and I'm enjoying it a lot so far. Some thoughts by chapter:

Chapter 5: (view spoiler)[
From the book: “Yeah, but birds prefer toast,” Al said. “It’s not a healthy choice, but when does that stop ’em? You ever see a goose turn down scraps of bread? They’re self-destructive. Poor bastards. ” He laughed, real loud...

This reminded me of my cousin so much when I read it. He's super outdoorsy and always says things like this. The way the characters evoke my memories of real people makes the story feel so rich to me. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 6: (view spoiler)[
I really liked the story about Trevor and these lines at the end of the chapter:That was the last time that Ellie and Trevor chilled together, and the memory brought unshed tears to Ellie’s eyes because her Cuz would never retire now. Would never get another high score at the arcade or text Ellie cat pictures or wear a cheesy alphabet-embroidered vest on the first day of school to make his students cringe. She couldn’t save him.
The way your mind runs through all the things you'll never experience and all the things they'll never do feels very accurate to me. Already the second time I've cried.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7: (view spoiler)[ I like this detail about her dad relating cautionary tales. I brought this up to my mom once, because it seemed like every time my sister and I mentioned something, she had a story about a person for whom that thing had gone horribly wrong, haha. (hide spoiler)]

[Joelle.P.S]

I was so excited and pre-ordered this 1 but alas I succumbed to my pandemic reading-malaise and never even opened it. Thanks for this thread! Hopefully it'll inspire me and I'll join you soon. 🙂📚🤩

[Stephanie]

that is great to hear, hope you will be able to join at some point! I'm glad this book was nominated/chosen, because it wasn't on my radar before and I'm really enjoying it.

Chapter 8: (view spoiler)[ I feel the tension without it being overdone. I also really love that Ellie's dad believes her. I get tired of kids having to overcome the doubts of adults all the time (both in stories and in real life) so it is great to see the Ellie's dad trusts her and she feels she can count on him. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

I’ll be starting soon - I also had no idea about this book until it was nominated- and now I find myself quite excited

[DivaDiane]

I have been wanting to read this for quite a while now. I’m so glad we chose it and hope many of the Amazing Eight Challengers will join us. And anyone else of course.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I've also started and am finding it really well done so far, though I don't love the audio narrator. Might switch to illustrations!

[Rachel]

I’m definitely feeling happy about my library having this in hardback - this ones feels good that way (I like a good tactile reading experience and I think the illustrations may have meaning)

[Ruth]

The illustrated hardback edition is really beautiful! I believe the artist, Rovina Cai, is nominated for the Best Artist award at the Hugo’s this year.

[Ruth]

Stephanie wrote: "that is great to hear, hope you will be able to join at some point! I'm glad this book was nominated/chosen, because it wasn't on my radar before and I'm really enjoying it.

Chapter 8: [spoilers ..."

Your spoiler text is dead on. I found this book super refreshing in the way it avoided some of the more annoying YA cliches.

[DivaDiane]

Stephanie wrote: "that is great to hear, hope you will be able to join at some point! I'm glad this book was nominated/chosen, because it wasn't on my radar before and I'm really enjoying it.

Chapter 8: [spoilers ..."

Yes, this is a nice touch. (view spoiler)[I should hope he at least gives her the benefit of the doubt though, given that she is a ghost conjurer, or whatever it's called! (hide spoiler)]

[DivaDiane]

Ruth wrote: "I found this book super refreshing in the way it avoided some of the more annoying YA cliches."

I also loved that Ellie seems to be (view spoiler)[Ace or Aro. She's not even slightly interested in a romantic relationship. Which is nice because her best friend is a boy, so in a more clichéd YA, they would become romantically involved at some point. (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

I just started and I'm enjoying it. I like the relationships among the characters and the way information about the world is being revealed.

I'm at Chapter 9. I like the little details that make the world rich and real. (view spoiler)[ Like the comment that crop monoculture is leading to monoculture of the associated creepy creatures. And Ellie being racially profiled at the truck stop and her response, being angry but resigned to the situation too. (hide spoiler)]

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

I forgot we had a BR thread for this!

I've read Elatsoe now and liked it, though I wasn't expecting to in the first couple of chapters.

When I got to this bit in chapter 3
(view spoiler)[
(view spoiler)['All manner of beasts and monsters lived in the Kunétai, but few were deadlier than the water itself, which could smother a powerful swimmer and fling the lifeless body into the sea.' (hide spoiler)]

I wanted to roll my eyes at what I thought was the author trying too hard. Water throwing a body into the sea, which is a large body of water, just irritated me.

Then in chapter 4 we got
(view spoiler)[(view spoiler)[
'It wasn’t a companionable silence, Ellie realized. At least not to her. She felt awkward around her oldest friend. Maybe that’s because they’d never had to deal with heavy stuff like murder before. Life’s problems used to be graffiti mistakes and dogs afraid of googly-eyed skulls.
She missed that.' (hide spoiler)]

Which for me was dreadful. I' miss stuff that happened yesterday' doesn't do anything to further establish the depth of a long standing relationship. Again, it was trying too hard and failing at what I thought DLB was aiming for.

But then I got to this bit a couple of pages later

(view spoiler)[
“North Herotonic has a good invasive monster program and field-work opportunities,” she continued. “Like, last semester, the ParAb department funded a trip to the panting caves outside Austin.” (hide spoiler)]

And all of a sudden my minor grievances went away. I don't know what it is about this sentence exactly, but it was like oiling a motor and adding suspensions to make my reading journey less juddering.

A story where the paranormal is accepted as normal just allows for some exceptions, I guess. Up until then I was reading with the idea that the mystical aspects were more niche in the world. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Nothing really irritated me after that. Elatsoe's relationship with her parents was interesting. Her dad being completely accepting and supportive. Her mum not quite doing the same, but at least they spoke about their issues.

Writing about the book having now finished it I don't feel as though I can praise it as I had planned. I still liked the story but (view spoiler)[what I was enjoying about it was how much Ellie needed her community to get to a resolution. Having Ellie's mum, Jay's sister & her badass basketball team sidelined at the end has me wondering about their importance. They contributed to saving themselves, but that's about it. I didn't end up feeling as though anyone but Ellie (and her two sidekicks) were the heroes. :/
(hide spoiler)]

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Over the weekend I watched this conversation about Chinese science fiction (YouTube) where they spend some time talking about the pressure to represent China for a western audience rather than just telling a scifi story and has me thinking about what I want from this challenge.
What I enjoyed about Elatsoe could be construed as cultural tourism, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'm still mulling over other excerpts that I bookmarked regarding colonialism and how I would have felt if they weren't included in the story.

[Midiain]

It probably sounds bad to say that I enjoyed this book way more than I had anticipated. I vacillated about whether I was going to read it at all. Honestly, if it was part of series I don't think I'd read more of them but this was a solid YA urban fantasy.

What I liked:
(view spoiler)[I always appreciate stories based in cultures and lore other than the ubiquitous western European mythology. Although there was a mixture, the Lipan cultural perspective was predominate and I was definitely interested in the monsters and traditions of Ellie's world.

I liked the mentions of the lingering impact of colonialism from the perspective of lived experience. It enriched the worldbuilding in a powerful way.

I loved that vampires could be banished from Lipan ancestral homelands because they still had spiritual ownership over the land. That was a great touch and great originality.

I liked that Ellie's parents taught lessens through stories instead of lectures. Her teenage impatience couldn't entirely brush them off in the same way and, like her mother explained, the story gets remembered and lesson is there too even if the kid doesn't consciously realize it.

I liked that her parents respected her opinions and abilities while still providing some structure, rules, and boundaries. They gave her a lot autonomy but didn't let her just get away with quite everything.

I liked that she was explicitly ace and that it was accepted and respected by everyone.

I liked that her relationship with her best friend was entirely platonic and that there was no teenage, romantic angst. It was a nice change from the typical YA book. They respected each other's abilities and worked well as a team even though Jay was more of a sidekick than a partner despite Ellie's reassurances.

The magic systems were well thought out and consistent. There was a consistent progression in the use of various abilities rather than a sudden deus ex machina showdown at the end.

I liked that magic and the supernatural were so commonplace that you could get a degree as a paranormal investigator. (hide spoiler)]

What I didn't like:
(view spoiler)[ While I did like the stories about Six-Great, there were several times when the stories disrupted the pacing of the book.

There were a few inconsistencies that were a minor annoyance. It's entirely possible that I just missed some element though.

I'm not a huge fan of the trope where the kid is massively more powerful than anyone ever and doesn't need any training to use those powers.

Ronnie and her team were entirely unnecessary and didn't contribute anything. Even Ellie's mom didn't really play a part in the final battle so I'm not really sure why any of them were even there.

I would've liked a little more explanation about the mentioned environmental impact of magic use. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Started this today and so far enjoying as much as anticipated- loving the additional story told by the illustrations!
The book just FEELs good.

[Nicol]

Question: Has anyone listened to the audiobook? I wanted to eye ball read this since I heard there are illustrations but I'm having trouble with my library, audio is available on Scribd, should I patiently wait for library to enjoy the illustrations or go with the audiobook?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I did not love the audio. I think it robbed it of some of the charm. I made do, but I have a sense that illustrations are the way to go. Have you checked Hoopla?

[Nicol]

Allison wrote: "I did not love the audio. I think it robbed it of some of the charm. I made do, but I have a sense that illustrations are the way to go. Have you checked Hoopla?"

Thanks! Even Houston Public Library now seems only to have music, movies and tv on Hoopla (just like my local public library) for some reason but I went to the HPL website and they have it on Axis360 now! Just downloaded it!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

JELLY!! Enjoy! I think you in particular will find this a refreshing read, Nicol, and I am so excited to hear your thoughts!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

...I guess I should likley share my thoughts.

Early on non-spoiler thoughts:

What a great urban fantasy. I love the framing of the magic, the focal point of Apache lore, and the love that seems pervasive--filial, platonic, romantic, teacher student...it's front and center.

Spoilerific end of book thoughts:

(view spoiler)[ I'm not sure it was entirely successful as a lot seemed unnecessary or perhaps a bit too simplistic, but I think it did a lot with grace and style. The idea of the teen who has to save everyone was really well handled. I LOVED the story-telling-as-teaching element throughout the narrative structure. I'm a huge fan of seeing established love, particularly for marginalized folks. I enjoyed the hell out of the vampires in this story, and how fucking CREEPY whiteness-as-monster could be, while the connection of the Lippan Apache to their land was so strong. Just such a great juxtaposition to see the various sorts of power we wield and cherish. (hide spoiler)]

[Raucous]

I saw the thread for this created a while back, got curious, went looking for the book after finishing up some other things, and discovered that my spouse had already gotten it. That must be a sign.

I'm quite charmed by the start and by the illustrations.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

oh good! so glad you're joining in!

[Rachel]

I ended up loving it - soo glad this was brought to my attention (hooray crazy 8s!)
About the ending ….

That toy was from who I think it was…right?

[Megan]

I adored the illustrations so much, and I liked the story itself a lot. (view spoiler)[

* Rachel: the dog toy HAD to have been from Six-Great, I think! That ending made me happy.

* I liked the slow reveal of all the aspects of the worldbuilding, and the way the supernatural had been intertwined with our "real world." I'm mildly obsessed with the idea of supernatural paleontology now. I know it'd take a lot of work and care to make dinosaur ghosts happen, but I want to see it. (Short story set in this universe, please???)

* I really liked all the Six-Great stories, and the way Ellie and her family shared those stories.

* It was refreshing to read an asexual character be accepted and not teased for it. (hide spoiler)]

[Raucous]

Chapter 4: (view spoiler)[I'm finding the way that magic and the supernatural are so integrated into the Elatsoe's world compelling. The overheard discussion about scarecrows in Iowa cornfields in this chapter is a great example. As an aside, I used to live in Iowa, would take long bike rides past cornfields, and they really are both creepy and dauntingly endless - even without the eyes following you. The rustling... Shudder (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

Finished and I really enjoyed this. (view spoiler)[ I enjoyed the world and how the magic/supernatural elements were woven through and reflected the diversity of cultures while the focus was firmly on the Native American mythos. I also really enjoyed the emphasis on the importance of family and friends and that they were such regular, healthy relationships. I thought things got a bit chaotic at the end, as others have noted, and some interesting reveals didn't get so much attention. Like, they moved a *town*?!, and Vivienne had more going on internally that could have had more development. (hide spoiler)]

[Raucous]

I really liked this book. Echoing what Rachel said, "The book just FEELs good." I can see why it was such a critical hit last year.

(view spoiler)[The integration of magic, supernatural, and tribal lore into the world worked well for me. The author clearly spent quite a bit of time working on making that so seamless. There were many creative details that served to make it more compelling. Summoning mosquito ghosts to finish off an ancient evil? Genius. Evicting vampires from illegally seized tribal land? Wow. The underworld sequence under the ocean that used to be in this location was amazing as well. I wasn't at all surprised to read after that that the author has a PhD in Oceanography.

I appreciated the author avoiding the "my parents don't understand me" trope and emphasizing the familial love instead (too bad she wasn't as able to resist the "reckless novice sleuth" trope). And while I don't mind reading about or being in a good romance, having a protagonist who had no interest in such things and was confident in that was refreshing.

The finish was a bit unsatisfying to me. It was chaotic and confusing in places, it was more of a descent into horror than I would have liked, and the whole thing with the doctor felt unfinished. A bigger issue for me is that I was hoping for a solution that involved more cooperation between the family members and friends who were present. Instead what we got was Elatsoe just overpowering the doctor and the town. Her figuring out how to do it and being willing to take the risk was well done - but not what I'd hoped for given the rest of the book.
(hide spoiler)]

[Patricia]

I'll be starting to read that soon...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

well said, and agreed with your points!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yay Patricia Mae! it's one of my faves so far this year, hope you enjoy

[Mareike]

I started this without reading the blurb and I'm finding myself quite charmed so far.

Stephanie wrote: "I've started reading it and I'm enjoying it a lot so far. Some thoughts by chapter:

Chapter 5:
[Spoiler removed]

Agreed on all of your points, Stephanie! Especially the ending of chapter 6!

Meredith wrote: "I just started and I'm enjoying it. I like the relationships among the characters and the way information about the world is being revealed.

I'm at Chapter 9. I like the little details that make t..."

Yes! That was so good!

I'm up to ch. 12 now and (view spoiler)[I really, really like Ellie's relationship with her parents and, as Stephanie said, that they both believe her. I also really like that both parents - but especially her mother - are alive. (So far?) Dead parents (and especially dead mothers) are somewhat overdone in SFF/YA literature, imho.

I also really enjoy the way family stories are woven into the main story and how that helps to flesh out the worldbuilding.

And the vibes coming off of Allerton's house and Allerton himself were really well done. The house especially gave me the creeps. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Haha, now that it's June, I finally am picking this one one up. Somehow I got confused, and thought that the author was Canadian and First Nations, (maybe it's the cover, which makes me think northern and cold) but then I look again and she is Apache! A familiar tribe to someone who grew up in the southwest US.

Chapter 4
(view spoiler)[I liked this line: Crying helped blunt the edge of loss, and Ellie wanted her current pain to stay shar. To prod her in the ribs until Trevor was avenged.
I also like the detail of her neon green fingernails filed to a point. Although I'm not generally a fan of nailpolish, it was an unexpected and distinctive aesthetic choice. A lot more edgy than I would have expected for her character. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7
I appreciate highlighting the little micro-aggressions. (view spoiler)[Being treated like a thief in stores, knowing that you need to go out of your way to have a receipt on hand, to not be "suspicious" in your movements. Also, the handling of money with dead racist presidents on it. It easily gets my brain spiraling to every statue and street and monument named for a white man who committed atrocities. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

About halfway done. Slow progress is just me, not the book.

Chapter 13
(view spoiler)[Almost the exact moment I wondered whether they could un-welcome vampires on their land... they went there! I love the traditional vampire lore of requiring invitation - no Edward Cullens sneaking into bedrooms here. (hide spoiler)]

@Stephanie
I also appreciate positive parental figures in YA. So often the children are framed as the underdogs against authority, but here we see so much respect for her elders and ancestors.

[Mel]

¾ of the way through

Chapter 14
(view spoiler)[Gotta say, vomiting leeches is pretty nightmarish imagery. I can feel them squish in my throat reading that. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 26
Haha, the desert rat in me appreciates this detail:
(view spoiler)[Smiling, Ellie fastened her hair in a braid and rubbed sunscreen on her face, neck, and arms. Thus readied for action..."
But of course. Sun-armoured up and ready to face the day - or the undead. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Went ahead and finished.

(view spoiler)[Many of the things I liked are echos of above. The loving family bonds, the refreshingly platonic relationship with her friend Jay, how she is explicitly confirmed to be ace, the storytelling and indigenous culture and values - that vampire banishment was excellent.

My only complaint might be that the ending was a bit chaotic. It just incorporated a lot of different elements: timey-wimey space, silver stakes, hauntings, exorcists, guns... Yeah, the vampire with a gun that counts down for them to run away was personally a bit much.

It didn't ruin the overall appeal of the book for me, however. And I'm a sucker for a happy ending for dogs. (hide spoiler)]

@Ryan, I think you made a good point calling attention to the cultural tourism aspect. Likewise, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it makes me think on the primary audience being the "other" and how that affects the storytelling.

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

This is the thread to use for full spoiler for the BOTM for April, 2023. From here on out, spoiler tags are not to be used! Full spoilers ahead!

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

[CBRetriever]

This books seemed like a simpler Charles de Lint book. Not bad, but definitely for the YA and advanced MG readers. The dog and the mammoth were plusses plus the cultural setting.

[Ellen]

I thought the first half of the book was stronger than the second. I also liked the mammoth and the dog and the cultural setting. I think I would be interested in sequels if they were about a grown Elatsoe and her investigation business.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I agree I also thought the first half was stronger than the second. I was sucked in right away, but felt it could have been trimmed down in the end.

I also felt like the story reads much younger than it’s intended YA audience.

I loved the ghost animals and I’m glad the dog comes back in the end. I enjoyed the mashup of all the different mythologies.

I think maybe my expectations were too high also. So many readers loved this, which isn’t the book’s fault.

[CBRetriever]

Sarah wrote: "I also felt like the story reads much younger than it’s intended YA audience. "

yes this

it's not a bad book and if I was in the mood for something like this, I might even love it

[Kirsi]

I finished it last night and quite enjoyed it, but I agree that the first half of the book was more engaging. I loved Kirby and the other ghost animals plus the cultural setting, too. I think it was a nice read overall, but definitely targeted at a younger audience than I was expecting.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I meant to mention- I did read the hardback with illustrations which were beautifully done.

I *think* the story they tell us of Six-Great eventually coming down to Ellie and Kirby in the end. I could be wrong, interested to hear other’s take on the illustrations if they looked through them.

[Ellen]

Sarah that is what I thought the story of the illustrations was too.

[WTEK]

I actually really liked this book. I'm not usually into YA, but I think having an Ace MC who wasn't going to get into any love triangle drama was refreshing. I think maybe that's why some of you thought it read more middle grade.

One of my favorite things about this book is how supportive Ellie's family was. Like they didn't want her to risk her life unnecessarily, but they also trusted her with her powers. I think so often you get people who don't trust their kids to do the right thing. But this shows that if you build a support system through family, friends, and community, you'll find that your kids can grow into the adults they were meant to be with strength and character.

I'm getting a little cheesy here, I promise you I am not usually like that in my reviews lol. I do agree that the first half of the book was more engaging and I feel like there were some discussions of things that I thought would lead to something in this - like Jay's Oberon blood or mentioning that magic actually warps the world around them. Maybe she is planning on turning it into a series. But I did love a different take on Urban Fantasy that isn't all leather and shifters vs vampires (even though I do like those too). I enjoyed reading about a magical world that isn't just European myth based.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I don’t think it’s the lack of romance that makes it feel middle grade to me. I don’t read a whole lot of middle grade but I think it has more to do with the writing style? It was like chapter 1 I was feeling that way before I would have even known whether there was any romance.

But as I said, I’m not an expert. Couldn’t quite put my finger on it.

[Colin]

I originally read this book a while ago and went back to it for this BOTM. I like this book a lot. Both the first time through and now. It is an enjoyable story of the supernatural world interfacing with ours. The writing is solid. The mythology is well-presented and interesting. It makes the book different. I thought the story arc was good.

I liked the principal characters and their interactions. Ellie, in particular, feels very real. As many others have already pointed out, the characters seem younger, by a couple of years, than the book presents them as. To me, it's in the way they speak and the way their actions are characterized. I do not think the absence of romance has anything to do with this impression. What I do wonder is whether the characters were "up-aged" either at the insistence of the agent or the publisher, to place it firmly in the YA category and away from the 13-15y zone where you do not see a lot of MC's in books.

Minor side note: the author published a short story, Nkasht ii, (about 4500 words) in the December 2014 Strange Horizons that seems like a precursor to Elatsoe. I wonder if anyone else read it and, if so, what they think.

Odd coincidence: this makes two BOTM in a row with an MC nicknamed Ellie. (Or are our mods up to something . . . ?)

[DivaDiane]

LOL, Colin! Maybe we shouldn’t put it past them?

[Anna]

I have never caught the mods mid-shenanigans, so they're probably not up to any mischief ;)