Jane Austen discussion
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How many marriage proposals are rejected in Austen?
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Mr. Martin's written proposal is rejected by Harriet Smith in Emma (but really it's Emma who's rejecting this proposal). Emma rejects Mr. Elton's proposal inside their carriage.
I read somewhere that all of the marriage proposals in Austen that were made indoors were rejected, and that all the outdoor ones were accepted.
If we count Anne Elliot breaking off her engagement with Wentworth the first time, then we also should count Lucy Steele breaking her engagement with Edward Ferrars and Isabella Thorpe breaking her engagement with Catherine’s brother.
Pride & Prejudice : A BabyLit Counting Primer actually has the number of proposals as one of the numbers! (This book is my go-to baby gift!)There are 4 proposals in P&P
Lizzy rejects Collins twice in one go so I guess they counted that as one. Then she rejects Darcy once. She accepts Darcy at the end.
Jane accepts Bingley and Charlotte accepts Mr. Collins.
Yes we should count proposals off page and before the story starts.
Gosh, more than I thought all round!!Do we count (successful) proposals 'not witnessed' but in the present, eg, Charlotte and Mr Collins, Jane and Bingley and also, therefore, Maria Bertram and the chap at Sotherton whose name always escapes me? Robert Martin's second proposal? Oh, and Robert Ferrars' to Lucy Steele's?
(Maybe I should have called this thread 'Engagements' rather than 'Proposals'?)
Former ones would need to include Frank Churchill to Jane Fairfax I think?
I shall have to consult what sounds like an excellent book that QNPB referenced!
As for Kevin's comment on interior and exterior proposals - wow, that is a neat observation indeed!!!!
So, if we divide hem all up into the following, both within the immediate time frame of the novel, and 'before and after' perhaps, what do we get in all I wonder?- rejected
- accepted
- subsequently broken
The total must be a quite high number. I wonder which book has the most? And in each category?
I saw the indoor/outdoor observation here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1SzU...
It really does seem to hold true. Not all of the movies get it right, for example the 2008 and 1996 versions of Sense and Sensibility, which both have Elinor accepting Edward inside their cottage.
The 1995 BBC failed proposal is perfect: Darcy standing tall over Lizzie and pacing around in a room that must feel almost claustrophobic, at least to Lizzie.
I also liked how he kept picking things up and putting them down again!!Lizzie just stares bewildered, wondering what on earth he's there for. I think she could have looked more astounded though!
S&S: Lucy and Edward
Do we count Willoughby and his wife?
Lucy and Robert
Edward and Elinor
Col. Brandon and Marianne
P&P:
Mr. Collins and Lizzie
Mr. Collins and Charlotte
Lizzie and Darcy 1
Jane and Bingley
Lizzie and Darcy 2
MP:
The three Price sisters in the past
Maria and Mr. Rushworth
Henry and Fanny
Julia and Hon. John Yates
Edmund and Fanny
Emma:
Miss Taylor and Mr. Weston in the recent past
Robert Martin and Harriet 1
Mr. Elton and Emma
Mr. Elton and Augusta Hawkins
Frank Churchill and Jane Fairfax
Robert Martin and Harriet
Mr. Knightley and Emma
Northanger Abbey:
Isabella Thorpe and James Moreland
Eleanor and her beloved (rejected by her father - not sure if it counts)
Henry and Catherine
Persuasion:
Frederick and Anne (rejected)
Anne and Charles Musgrove (rejected)
Henrietta and Charles Hayter
Louisa and Capt. Benwick
Anne and Frederick
Wow - you nailed it! Thank you. :)(Always a start to see Wentworth referred to as Frederick. I wonder if Anne called him Freddie in private? Somehow, that just doesn't sound right at all!!!)
(Lizzie might call Darcy 'Fitzy' in private perhaps??)!!!!!!!!
I bet Mr Bennet had wished Mrs Bennet had rejected him....
Proposals that are not made but someone in the novel expects they will:Isabella Thorpe/Captain Tilney
Catherine Morland/John Thorpe
Marianne Dashwood/John Willoughby
Eliza Williams/John Willoughby
Elinor Dashwood/Colonel Brandon
Miss Morton/Edward Ferrars
Miss Morton/Robert Ferrars
Anne Steele/"The Doctor"
Anne de Bourgh/Mr. Darcy
Caroline Bingley/Mr. Darcy
Georgiana Darcy/Mr. Bingley
Jane Bennet/Mr. Collins
Jane Bennet/Some Dude in London That One Time
Mary Bennet/Mr. Collins
Elizabeth Bennet/Mr. Wickham
Elizabeth Bennet/Colonel Fitzwilliam
Maria Bertram/Henry Crawford
Julia Bertram/Henry Crawford
Ross sisters/Henry Crawford
Mary Crawford/Edmund Bertram
Owens sisters/Edmund Bertram
Harriet Smith/Mr. Elton/Frank Churchill/Mr. Knightley
Emma Woodhouse/Frank Churchill
Jane Fairfax/Mr. Dixon
Jane Fairfax/Mr. Knightley
Elizabeth Elliot/William Walter Elliot
Louisa Musgrove/Frederick Wentworth
Penelope Shepherd Clay/Sir Walter Elliot
Conclusion: Before Lloyd Shapley there was Jane Austen!
Juan Manuel wrote: "Proposals that are not made but someone in the novel expects they will:Harriet Smith/Mr. Elton/Frank Churchill/Mr. Knightley
lol poor Harriet...
'some dude in London that one time'Brilliant!
Wow - that is an impressive list!Even JA is a little humorous at Harriet's expense - that line about 'even Harriet could not be in love with more than three men in her lifetime' or something like that....
Though I think to be fair to Harriet she was only really ever in love with Robert Martin.
I think though, it could be argued that her time with Emma 'did her good'. It's clear from what Austen says herself, and has Mr Knightley say, that Robert Martin is an intelligent, ambitious (in a good way) man, who is going 'up in the world', and that having a wife who is now one of the friends of the neighbourhood's 'leading ladies' (that's Emma, folks!) with the social polish that has inevitably rubbed off, that she is on good speaking terms now with the main landowner (Martin's landlord in fact?), and that she is 'at home' in 'big houses' (Hartfield, Donwell Abbey and John Knightley's London house), just has to be a worldly advantage for Robert Martin. Had she married him first off, she would just have been a parlour boarder from a dame school.
So I think Emma has done Harriet good, though of course at the risk she would have ruined her life by separating her from the man she loved and suited best.
Juan, you win my Deep Scholarship prize!Beth, you make your case for Harriet benefiting from her time spent in Emma's finishing school, but I wonder if that's what Austen meant you to learn.
I guess not, as she doesn't say so, but I think it is there by implication all the same. It's a bit 'worldly' I suppose, to focus on the social advantages Emma conferred on Harriet, even though those are the ones Emma herself sought to graciously confer!!!I think we shouldn't forget that Mr Knightley at first tells Emma, when he hears she's urged Harriet to turn down Robert Martin, that in fact Martin could do better for himself than marry Harriet, but then, later on in the novel, does say to to Emma that on further acquaintance with Harriet he is surprised to find she is better than he thought her initially - which might be because he just didn't know her before, only 'of' her (a parlour border with an uncertain family background, and not accomplished like Emma or Jane F), or because Emma has, indeed, 'improved' her?? I don't think we can be blind to the fact that Harriet now has 'gone up' a bit in the world, as she can move with greater confidence in Emma's social circle, even if she is not a natural part of that circle.
The most famous one is Lizzie Bennet's rejection of Darcy's first (insulting!) proposal. She's also rejected Mr Collins as well.
Fanny Price rejects Henry Crawford's proposal in Mansfield Park.
Any others that happen in the course of the novel?
Anne Eliot has apparently rejected Charles Musgrove's in the past. Do we count her splitting up with Wentworth first time, or is that not an actual 'rejection'?