What Are We Reading? 1 February 2021

[Justine]

So here it is, February already, and it seems amazing that a year has passed since we (at least in Europe) seemed to start really taking note of a new viral disease in China. The first cases in Italy were identified on 31 January 2020. Since then, quite a few of us have lived in various forms of partial or complete isolation; some have found reading more difficult; for others it has proved a refuge. But at least we’ve been able to keep the spirit and many of the connections of TL&S going here.

In the week just past, SydneyH reported on Paul Beatty’s prizewinning novel The Sellout, in which

a black farmer in Los Angeles is placed in an awkward position when an elderly man insists on becoming his slave. On reflection, he comes around to the idea that his neighbourhood could really benefit from a moderate amount of segregation. And thus begins a grand social experiment. The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them, some of them based on familiar stereotypes, though there are some that I wasn’t aware of […]

I don’t love this novel as much as Tuff, but The Sellout has arguably the more interesting concept. I find the lighthearted tone refreshing for a novel about race.

In Andy’s part of the world, ‘it’s a proper and cold winter’: So a suitable read has been The Weight of Snow, by Christian Guay-Poliquin, translated by David Homel,

in which the chapters are named by the depth of the snow as it accumulates.. It won three Quebec literary prizes after it was published in French in 2016.

This takes place in a northern Quebec village during a possible apocalyptic scenario, though it is intentionally not clearly defined, with the power down, the nearest city is under military control, and the snow steadily building up as a brutal winter takes its grip. The narrator has been seriously injured in a car accident, as he returned to the village to visit his father, and is slowly recovering, bed bound, and attended to by Maria, the only medic in the village, and housed and cared for by Matthias, in his seventies. The large part of the novel deals with the relationship between the two men, as the narrator recovers, his care bartered for by Matthias, for a place on a convoy to the city to be reunited with his hospitalised wife.

There's a gradual reveal to the nature of the dystopia, with Guay-Poliquin dropping the occasional subtle hint, and the 'less is more' approach really grips. It’s a survival story on several levels, as supplies get low, and the snow gets deeper. Sparse prose and short chapters break up what could have been a struggle to read; it is profound, compelling and refreshingly different.

Beowulf has its fans and detractors (I’m definitely in the former camp), but Amelia has discovered something unusual in Maria Dahvana Headley's Beowulf: A New Translation:

If you're a traditionalist, or easily irritated by American slang it's probably not for you. Headley has made some very particular choices with regards to style & translation, which she explains well (and passionately!) in the foreword. I particularly liked that Grendel's mother was a 'warrior-woman', rather than a whore or a monster.

There were a couple of word choices I disliked, but that was more to do with dislike of particular phrase than a lack of relevance to the translation. In fact, I generally found the slang added to the flow of the story rather than distracting from it.
Bro, Fate can fuck you up
Headley uses language which is immediately understandable, and which adds to the feel of an oral re-telling. This is a guy, sitting at a bar, drunkenly telling an epically tall tale!

Clare de la Lune warns us that John Boyne’s The Heart's Invisible Furies ‘is no way a short story.’ However: ‘If you can devote the time the book will reward you handsomely!’

The 700 pages tells Cyril Avery's life story from start to end. Broken down into 7 year blocks it follows his journey from conception in 1945 rural Ireland where the Catholic church first reveals it's controlling, ruthless and hypocritical face to the reader.

Moving to Dublin his mother hands her newborn to the nuns who find a 'decent' married couple looking to adopt a little boy. Financially this is a good move for the baby whose new parents, Charles and Maude Avery, are successful in business and literature. But the Averys are not a conventional couple by any way or means and this is where the fun starts.

John Boyne can spin a grand yarn and the writing is accessible to all. I was taken on a journey that swung from laugh out loud hilarity of his writing to the shock at the brutal cruelty that man can inflict on his fellow man. The book has an easy style and often reads like a script with conversations flowing free and quick with the author's sharp wit and eye for detail threaded through the pages providing an entertaining read despite the very dark message at its core.

Finally, Francis is keeping up with current events by reading The Truths We Hold: An American Journey, by Kamala Harris:

It was very well written and does not focus on her personal story as much as her political journey, offering a key insight into how she might fare in the highest office. I would be hopeful that she would make an excellent president, if she were to be elected, truly a very serious person.

The Anagram Authors Quiz appeared to attract some puzzle-solving talents. Impressive! Here are the solutions in full:

HOT MAD SKY (Thomas Kyd) d.1594
CLEAN TREE RUNES (Laurence Sterne) d.1768
NAFF CLAN RIDE (Ann Radcliffe) d.1823
MY HELL YEARS (Mary Shelley) d.1851
ORGAN’S EDGE (George Sand) d.1876
ELIZA MOLE (Emile Zola) d.1902
CAMP ROT RULES (Marcel Proust) d.1922
TIM PANDA’S MOLES (Osip Mandelstam) d.1938
ERR? GOOGLE LEW! (George Orwell) d.1950
HEART RAN SOUL ZONE (Zora Neale Hurston) d.1960
MASK: I? YOU? HIM? – I! (Yukio Mishima) d.1970
NEAR STATUE, HAIL RA (Nathalie Sarraute) d.1999
WHAT FROLICS! (Christa Wolf) d.2011
CUTE BOOMER (Umberto Eco) d.2016
SAM ZOO (Amos Oz) d.2018
NEARLY TEN (Anne Tyler) b.1941
FEAR LENTEN ERA (Elena Ferrante) b.1943
ALIEN SEED BALL (Isabel Allende) b.1943

But don’t’ relax yet! Because CCCubbon has come up with her own general knowledge quiz (see under Special Topics), including some very interesting questions!

[AB76]

Morning all, acrid wood smoke is a problem in the shires on cold days, not a fan!

As Justine mentioned its about a year since a virus was starting to hover in the news, my first mention of it in my diary last year was about Feb 8th, hoping it was not going to reach the UK (little did i know...it was already here)

Am enjoying Laurens Van Der Post's 1950s cold war novel "FLAMINGO FEATHER", there is a good tribal african theme (cultural and traditional), alongside a violent murder outside the house of the narrator. WW2 is a constant theme in the mind of Pierre Beauvilliers and what it has done to a generation who survived japanese internment (like Van Der Post himself)

Joan Didion describes the California valleys of her childhood in the middle section of "SLOUCHING TOWARDS BETHLEHEM". the flat expanses around Sacremento, the distances from the East Coast and the rest of America, the worlds of the expanding west in the 1940s and 1950s

William McIlvanney's wordy and literate "THE BIG MAN" explores scottish working class morals in thatchers scotland, a bare knuckle fight arranged for "the big man", a decent, out of work family man...

I also listened to Aussie synth band Cut Copy's latest LP "Freeze/Melt", wonderfully atmospheric on a cold morning

i am lucky that my reading hasnt been affected by lockdown but there is a sadness that it has affected many people i know and in this TLS group. I hope things are improving and that vaccinations are coming to all the over 60s in here...

[Paul]

Morning folks, Justine's opening about Patient zeroish hitting here in Italy 1 year ago... it's eerie. It doesn't seem such a long time, despite being a year belaboured and bespat upon by the gods. It's actually been a phenomenal year scientifically for me, 2 patents in the pipes and a paper on covid set to hit pre-print servers any day now. It may seem ghoulish, but when society suffers, the sciences flourish.

Flourishing, instead, is not an adjective that I would apply to the book I've just about finished reading: Freedom by Jonathon Franzen. I was a very enthusiastic fan of his The Corrections, when I read 12 or so year ago, and I can see how Freedom would have appealed to the 30 year old reader I embodied.

Nowadays, I think my tastes have somewhat changed. Franzen is that all-you-can-eat exotic grilled meat bonanza that I would have loved at 30, but today it would make me wonder how long that ostrich was going to park itself in my colon, and whether the hit my cholesterol was going to take from deep fried alligator was worth the novelty.

Franzen's narrative is full. Overly full, like a Hefty bag full of empties waiting to explode under the pressures of backwash fermentation. I had the sense, and it never left me, that I was reading a story and not being transported into another land or someone else's head. I've come to treasure the empty spaces in books, the unasked questions, the unresolved conflicts, that leave space for me to walk alongside the character. With Franzen, there was no room for me what with all of the Hefeweisen yeast frothing in the bagged confines. With Franzen you have the sense of a full picture, but in its fullness it feels less like art and more like artifice.

In terms of story, I enjoyed it, it reads very much like a companion to The Corrections and Franzen inhabits the narrative fully like a snug body stocking. But God knows, I wasn't going to try to cram myself in that body stocking with him even if he had invited me (he didn't). It's an odd feeling, being that guy who objects to the structure and technique. I'm usually the first to say Screw that guy, so bescrew me away, but I felt a little cut out from Franzen's world. I kind of wish that his editor has said "Listen, John, Johhny, Johnboy... let's just cut every other sentence in which you describe what the character is thinking. Show me, don't tell me Franzy, show me don't tell me. You've empathized the hell out of the midwestern housewife, now let's let her dance lewdly or something."

Next up, as soon as I finish Franzy will be Juan Rulfo's Pedro Paramo and or Jack London's Martin Eden

[Tam]

Ta for that!... That image of an ostrich stuck down a colon and fighting a deep fried alligator is going to stay with me for quite a while!...

[Justine]

Paul (3) wrote: "Morning folks, Justine's opening about Patient zeroish hitting here in Italy 1 year ago... it's eerie. It doesn't seem such a long time, despite being a year belaboured and bespat upon by the gods...."

When society suffers - the sciences are needed! Congratulations on your patents and other successes. And thanks for another sparkling review.

[Justine]

Cyril Hare An English Murder:

It’s Christmas Eve at Warbeck Hall and a blizzard is piling up the drifts on lawns laid out long ago by Capability Brown, while inside many of the old rooms are at near deep-freeze temperatures. Which may be just as well, because soon there will be bodies to keep on hold until the appropriate services can get through; even the telephone lines are down.

Golden Age crime novels are, of course meant to be taken as snacks rather than as nourishing meals. Forget realism and in-depth characterization; just accept the stereotypical old lord, his reprobate son, the butler, the upper-class v working-class young women, the policeman, the crazy solution …

And yet, there are several points of more significant interest here. Published in 1951, An English Murder is firmly set in the milieu of the postwar Labour government. One character is Chancellor of the Exchequer, another is the ambitious wife of a rising politician. And central to the plot (and solution) is a Jewish historian – one who today would be called a Holocaust survivor – who is researching the house’s eighteenth-century past. Not only does Cyril Hare avoid the tiresome antisemitic tropes that mar so many Golden Age novels, his Dr Bottwink comes alive just that bit more than any of the other characters – and reveals why everyone ought to have paid more attention to the life of William Pitt the Younger.

[scarletnoir]

Paul wrote: Flourishing, instead, is not an adjective that I would apply to the book I've just about finished reading: Freedom by Jonathan Franzen.

I can see that you like some things about Franzen, and not others... FWIW, I always find his books entertaining, AND I always find that some sections simply don't work - they seem too 'fake' to be even borderline believable.

I'm probably more tolerant of his novels than you are, though - being not 20 years younger, but (probably) 20 older than you are! Far too many novels are either boring, badly written or miserable... at least JF provides a lot of fun.

[Lljones]

scarletnoir wrote: "I can see that you like some things about Franzen..."

I was all in with Franzen through The Corrections and Freedom (and quite a bit of his non-fiction). Couldn't stomach Purity, though.

First of a trilogy - Crossroads: A Novel: A Key to All Mythologies, Volume 1 - due out in October. Should generate a lot of noise, if nothing else.

[AB76]

Lljones wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "I can see that you like some things about Franzen..."

I was all in with Franzen through The Corrections and Freedom (and quite a bit of his non-ficti..."

always disliked franzen,, back in 2001, at the very start of me becoming avid reader (rather than a few books a year, mixed in with magazines and the music papers), i was interested in all the hype and very quickly with "The Corrections", my distaste for modern fiction began almost at birth, so to speak

[Brian]

Paul wrote: "Franzen is that all-you-can-eat exotic grilled meat bonanza that I would have loved at 30, but today it would make me wonder how long that ostrich was going to park itself in my colon, and whether the hit my cholesterol was going to take from deep fried alligator was worth the novelty...."

Thank you for a brilliant review, had me chortling. I have Purity and Freedom on my TBR list, having enjoyed The Corrections. Given your warning, perhaps I should move them up the pile before I reach the big 4-0 this year. Though I've already been told by others that I should bin Purity before opening it, and move on altogether...

I'm currently in the midst of The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression - which is an interesting mix of (starkly honest) autobiography, popular science and a bit of travelogue. Hesitated over starting it at a point of the year when I'm prone to feeling a bit low myself, but it's actually useful perspective, and a reminder of the science behind what I know works for me (exercise and fresh air)

Happy February everyone.

[Tam]

Brian wrote: "Paul wrote: "Franzen is that all-you-can-eat exotic grilled meat bonanza that I would have loved at 30, but today it would make me wonder how long that ostrich was going to park itself in my colon,..."

I can recommend 'Far From The Tree', by the same author as well, which examines family tensions when family members turn out to be very different from what was expected of them.

[FranHunny]

Still on The Body, and then I made a huge mistake - I forgot on Friday my charger for my phone. I dislike reading books on my laptop, as I mostly read while in bed - so after reaching 58 % (of the body) and 18 % (of battery) I had to shut off the phone to have some battery power left for the Monday morning commute, you know, C. Warning App …

So no, I did not finish book number three in January. No prob, I will make it my first book to be finished this month, then.

[Andy]

Just right for a winter's afternoon has been Malicroix by Henri Bosco, translated by Joyce Zonana.
I've had this on my tbr list for sometime, and the recent reprint from NYRB gave me the push I needed.
Set in the early 19th century in rural France and written in 1948, Bosco's story concerns a remote island property, bequeathed to a young man, Martial, by his great uncle whom he has never met. The uncle's will demands that Martial remain in the house on the island for three months to gain legal control of it. Even getting to it is an ordeal, but in doing so, Martial meets the caretaker Balandran, who it seems he has also inherited. Tribulations with notary await, along with his officious clerk. Its a straightforward plot, but the real enjoyment is in the setting, and the characters. The solitude of the ramshackle property, and its custodian and his dog, grow on city dweller Martial. Bosco writes on the haunting wilds of the island with a gothic-dipped pen, describing the scares that await someone used to a different life wonderfully, and with a suggestion of the supernatural spooned and stirred, in just the right dose.

[Berkley]

Regarding "Bro, Fate can fuck you up", I must admit that I'm one of those readers for whom this kind of thing can work only in a loose adaptation, not in anything advertised as a translation.

But it did start me wondering about what a similarly vernacular version might come up with in other times or places. Unfortunately, everything just reinforced my feeling that this isn't the right approach. Edwardian melodrama: "Fate? Well, it just isn't on, is it, old boy." ; or how about 40s noir: "Fate will play you for a patsy, pal. Got a cigarette?" ; or an 80s teen comedy: "Dude! Fate ... like, not cool!"

Yeah, those were all deliberate parodies, but that's exactly how "Bro, etc" sounds to me. Oscar Wilde's idea that nothing becomes old-fashioned so quickly as a strained effort to be modern applies to this kind of thing, to my mind.

[AB76]

Andy wrote: "Just right for a winter's afternoon has been Malicroix by Henri Bosco, translated by Joyce Zonana.
I've had this on my tbr list for som..."

this is one of the many excellent NYRB re-issues of classics i have had my eye on, along with "Blood Dark" by Guilloux. Though i have an indulgence safety catch applied to my TBR pile that says dont read too much from one country, so in 2021, my french reads will be:
"The Praetorians"(Larteguy) about the Algerian crisis in France and possibly "Luallaby" by Slimani

[Harry]

Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't write a given black character and put words in their mouth without being called a racist.

[AB76]

Justine wrote: "Cyril Hare An English Murder:

It’s Christmas Eve at Warbeck Hall and a blizzard is piling up the drifts on lawns laid out long ago by Capability Brown, while inside many of the old ..."

this looks very interesting justine, i had never heard of it, where did you find it?

[AB76]

Harry wrote: "Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't write a given black character and put ..."

i remember reading Uncle Toms Cabin in english classes when i was 11 or 12 and even then was amazed at the frequent usage of racist words. Makes me wonder if that novel could be taught any more with cancel culture etc

[Harry]

AB76 wrote: "cancel culture etc"

Don't start me off...

[Justine]

Harry wrote: "Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't write a given black character and put ..."

BTW, the words you quote aren't mine, but those of a reviewer. In any event, have a look at Let the Great World Spin by Colum McCann. He does put words in the mouth of at least one black character, in a long, very striking monologue.

[Justine]

AB76 wrote: "Uncle Tom's Cabin.."

Has 'cancel culture' really had the universal effect you suggest? To Kill a Mockingbird has plenty of racist language, but remains popular; so has The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and many literary works from the American South. I believe they are still being read in high schools and colleges, though possibly Uncle Tom's Cabin isn't being offered to 11 and 12 year olds any more; I myself find it an odd choice for that age group. In fact, in some school districts, it might just be eschewed as being too harshly critical of the Old South!

[Clare de la lune]

message 3 (Paul) -
Ha ha. That's a great review!
It's maybe 15 years or so since I read 'The Corrections' and 'Freedom' and all I can remember is my reaction to those nightmarish characters 'Oh for fucks sake - will you all just fuck right off!!!!'

[Georg]

Harry wrote(16):
I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't write a given black character and put ..."

Sorry (I am not a native English speaker): could you please explain to me who or what you mean by it? And why that it is offensive?
I am also puzzled by your punctuation, as a writer,..

[Justine]

AB76 (17) wrote: "Justine wrote: "Cyril Hare An English Murder:
..."

I saw it mentioned here, though I don't recall by whom. Then I found it in my library. Hare, the pseudonym of a judge, also wrote several legal crime tales.

[AB76]

Justine wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Uncle Tom's Cabin.."

Has 'cancel culture' really had the universal effect you suggest? To Kill a Mockingbird has plenty of racist language, but remains popular; so has [bo..."

good point re the Harper Lee novel, thats been a staple of the english school curriculum for more than 3 decades. in fact only my school didnt do "To Kill a Mockingbird" at GCSE out of the local schools at GCSE time, its an interesting quirk of the exam boards. I think we did "Of Mice and Men" instead

[AB76]

Justine wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Uncle Tom's Cabin.."

Has 'cancel culture' really had the universal effect you suggest? To Kill a Mockingbird has plenty of racist language, but remains popular; so has [bo..."

good to see them still being taught in the USA too

on the uncle toms cabin being studied by 11-12 yr olds, i dont remember it seeming too difficult. we were a literate class .i do remember us all having to speak in american accents, whenever we did american plays or books, all the way through to A level, i was a popular choice for accents...

[AB76]

Harry wrote: "AB76 wrote: "cancel culture etc"

Don't start me off..."

sorry mate, i can imagine teeth gnashing occurring wherever you are currently locked down......

[Harry]

Georg wrote: "Sorry (I am not a native English speaker): could you please explain to me who or what you mean by it? And why that it is offensive?."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...

Georg wrote: "I am also puzzled by your punctuation, as a writer,.."

I didn't know you were a writer.

[Harry]

AB76 wrote: "Harry wrote: "AB76 wrote: "cancel culture etc"

Don't start me off... 🙄"

sorry mate, i can imagine teeth gnashing occurring wherever you are currently locked down......"

I should have rolly-eyed 😉 See above.

[Harry]

Justine wrote: "He does put words in the mouth of at least one black character"

Three, of the main characters and one bit-player in "The Silence Game" are black.
And O My Gawd! they even speak!
Why is writing black characters such a big deal?
Answer: it's not, except for boring back-flip bigots like the original reviewer 🙄

And I realise they weren't your words Justine 👍😉

(Edited, 3 - I forgot Josh Brannigan 😂 )

[Julian]

Joseph and His Brothers
by Thomas Mann (Original title: Joseph und seine Brüder) - translated by H.T. Lowe-Porter - a review by me.

I think that what a reader will remember of Joseph and His Brothers by Thomas Mann is first and foremost what an epic journey it is. It is a journey for the reader and the narrative encompasses many journeys for the characters. Mann creates a mighty edifice from the Old Testament episode. He recreates the Ancient Near East with a fidelity that borders on obsession. I remember landscapes portrayed with a cinematic splendour and festivities that play out as moving images crowded with movement and life.
If the original story is passionate and dramatic - this drama in Mann's work is always contained by his authorial voice. This above all seeks to find truth in character portrayal and to see truth as a destination that is dearly attained - a celestial city appearing on the horizon - drawing the reader as a pilgrim, a seeker after wisdom who must negotiate an imagined reality, a recreation of what might have happened if you were a witness to the events or an interpreter of narratives that are constructs of both the participants and those who write the accounts. We can live with the vivid dramas of Joseph's suffering as prisoner, his seduction by Potiphar's wife or the moving reconciliation with the brothers and Jacob the patriarch submissive to the deity, guided always by an all knowing power - experiencing these events as drama on the highest plain, and yet overlaying this is the serene progress of the narrator's voice, distancing us, allowing us to contemplate the events as a divine plan, bringing confidence and certainty to quieten humanity's frail condition and moral questioning. We have a candle to guide us through darkness and to light the way for the troubled being caught between animal and angel.
Joseph's and Jacob's dilemmas and failings, their triumphs and sorrows more than ever in Mann's narrative bring echoes and a foreshadowing of other famed Biblical narratives - the story in Mann's work is seen as part of a huge tradition stretching backwards to the earliest patriarchs and forwards to the Gospels. Mann's account also anticipates some of the concerns of the 20th and 21st centuries. It is a world where dreams can displace reality, where individual selves are split and identities are malleable and shifting and relationships are threatened by deception and duplicity. This insecurity permeates the narrative through to the final pages as Jacob leaves his beloved son a dying wish that all will be healed between him and his brethren - he does not have confidence that this will really happen without a formal intervention from beyond the grave. Joseph himself perhaps personifies the strength of God's overarching plan - a figure who comes to embody the progress of God's story that gives meaning to all events and leads the characters towards a destiny may be mirage or salvation but one that will have design and ultimate purpose.

[scarletnoir]

Harry wrote: "Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't write a given black character and put words in their mouth without being called a racist."

It's an interesting and difficult problem, isn't it? It's also relevant to the last two books I've read, and an issue I was considering discussing in that context.

For example - in The Real Cool Killers, Chester Himes uses many racist terms... 'shine', etc. - and several times, the so-called 'n-word' (am I allowed to type that in full here, or not?). Rather oddly to modern sensibilities, he replaces the well-known US swear word "motherf***er" (not sure about that one either!) with a somewhat bowdlerized version in "mother-raper".

So, when Himes was writing, it appears that the f-word was forbidden, but not the n-word. Nowadays, it seems to be the other way around... I find that interesting.

(Perhaps I should mention, in case anyone reading this doesn't know, that Himes himself was an African-American... though I expect he would have called himself 'black', probably...)

It used to be a 'thing' that only Jewish comedians could make Jewish jokes - and, boy, did they take advantage of that freedom! It also makes sense - if an 'outsider' makes a joke at the expense of, and to denigrate Jews, African-Americans or any other group, it is not acceptable.

However, if a writer or screenwriter wants to be convincing, there may well be situations in their stories where a character - NOT the author - uses racist or anti-semitic language. I'm not a writer, but can wholly sympathise with Harry and others faced with this dilemma of how to be realistic without being falsely accused.

(When I reviewed my last competed book, Ride the Pink Horse by Dorothy B. Hughes, I did mention the difficulty of her writing about the protagonist in the third person singular, so that the racist remarks made could be interpreted as either representing the character's thoughts - or the author's own. I'm fairly confident that they were meant to be 'Sailor's' observations, but a first person narrative would have removed any ambiguity.)

[Harry]

scarletnoir wrote: "_"

Good post Scarlet - it touches on something I find ... ignorant is, I'm afraid, the only word, that I bit my tongue over a couple of weeks ago, when Waugh was under discussion.
Readers discussed the books as if *Waugh* was racist / mysoginist, as if they were unable to see that Waugh was the WRITER, not the characters he wrote.
I wondered what he had to do? preface every bit of dilalogue with (By the way, this isn't me, it's the character saying:... ) 🙄

I have no idea of Waugh's thoughts on race, although I do know he attended Haile Selassie's Coronation - so maybe he was a proto Rastafarian 😉

[SydneyH]

Justine wrote: "So here it is, February already"

Thanks Justine - for the recap and for tastefully improving my post.

[Berkley]

Julian wrote: "Joseph and His Brothers
by Thomas Mann (Original title: Joseph und seine Brüder) - translated by H.T. Lowe-Porter - a review by me.

I think that what a reader will remember of Joseph and His Broth..."

This review might move Joseph and His Brothers a little higher up the list of Thomas Mann books I want to read. The Biblical/theological aspect has always left me feeling a little cooler towards it than to some of the others, but I'm always curious about fictional representations of the ancient world and to read that Mann "recreates the Ancient Near East with a fidelity that borders on obsession." certainly sparks my interest.

[AB76]

Really enjoying watching "The Investigation" and "Spiral Season 8" on alternate nights, nice and slowly

i love subtitled shows and the Kim Wall murder investigation is enthralling, Maebritt is an interesting character

[Tam]

scarletnoir wrote: "Harry wrote: "Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't write a given black char..."

It is an interesting debate. I attended a BBQ a while back and told 'an Irish man walks into to room' type joke. It wasn't insulting at all, but did have a certain stereotyping to it, and I was greeted by a much more 'woke' woman at the BBQ, with a how dare you say that (I don't have an Irish accent!). I pointed out that I was half Irish myself, so its similar to your example of the 'its OK for Jewish/black people to tell jokes against their own identities, but it's not OK for others to do so. So I asked her what she thought I was allowed to do?. Was I supposed to tell only half of a joke? Well half-jokes don't work, as there is not point in them at all. (I find myself now wondering what Flann O'Brien would have had to say about it?)...

It reminds me of the French author, Michel Houellebecq, who was taken to court by a muslim body for apparently insulting Allah, in one of his novels, in the French 'courts', where he won the court case, because it was a character in his book that was not very complimentary about Muhammad, rather than the author himself.

Personally I was more affronted by his treatment of women in his books... but I am not minded to ban them on that basis at all. I think it hangs on whether it is classified as 'hate speech', or not. If its not, and is just based on a 'stereotype', well a stereotype exists only because it has been sufficiently broadly recognised as a partial and limited description, often historically, rather than contemporarily. Yes we should be questioning where they come from, and why, but it isn't hate speech to me. Its debate that should be open to questioning, so that maybe we can all learn from it.

I am reminded about the attempts that some are making to say that only people of a certain regional/ethnic/physical identity should be able to play characters in a film or a play/tv series. Well I do wonder about how the world would have been rather impoverished, setting the question in more your part of the woods, if the likes of Richard Burton and Martin Sheen would only ever have been allowed to play 'Welsh' people... I'm happy to debate the issue with anyone I think!...and they can certainly 'put me right' on the basis of reason alone, if they have a good argument that is...

[FrancesBurgundy]

Georg wrote(23): "Harry wrote(16):
I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't write a given black character and put ..."

Sorry (I am not a native English speaker): could you please explain to me ... why that it is offensive?.."

Georg your English is excellent so I'm surprised that you haven't come across this construction - 'I find it offensive that ...' more or less equals 'I am offended that ...'.

[AB76]

Berkley wrote: "Julian wrote: "Joseph and His Brothers
by Thomas Mann (Original title: Joseph und seine Brüder) - translated by H.T. Lowe-Porter - a review by me.

I think that what a reader will remember of Josep..."

Thomas Mann was my idol when i was 24 (a long time ago), i read all his works up to "The Magic Mountain" and then the idoltry died and i havent touched him since. If i had time to waste, i would re-read "The Magic Mountain"but it was 100% the book i didnt want it to be. "Buddenbrooks" is his best...

[AB76]

Tam wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Harry wrote: "Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't writ..."

i'm pretty chilled on this angle of wokery but then as a middle class english male, i guess there isnt 400 years of stereotypes and slander to rail against.

saying that, i did find it annoying at university that every irish person was claiming i had irish ancrestry due to my red hair, when that just isnt the case. redheads suffer a lot of abuse, i have been very lucky but i must admit that any lazy ginger jokes i encounter, leave me puzzled rather than angry, as i'm red and proud. i just find the person who makes the joke looks stupid, is that meant to be an insult? lol

(I'm not really ginger anyway, i'm a kind of light red colour with blond flecks)

[Tam]

AB76 wrote: "Tam wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Harry wrote: "Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as a writer, I c..."

I think you will find that one of the highest amount of red-heads, per population, is probably in central Russia. Certainly around the same sort of percentage as in Ireland. It just goes to show how 'parochial' the terms of the debate are often held on!...

[AB76]

Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Tam wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Harry wrote: "Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as ..."

yes, there is a region in russia with a very high %
I had a DNA test for ancestry reasons and it found i have two different redhead genes,my beard is definately redder than my hair

[Bill]

In re Thomas Mann, coming in September:

[Lljones]

Bill wrote: "In re Thomas Mann, coming in September:
"

Interesting...

[Justine]

Harry (30)nwrote: "Justine wrote: "He does put words in the mouth of at least one black character"

Three, of the main characters and one bit-player in "The Silence Game" are black.
And O My Gawd! they even speak!
..."

OK, but I have to disagree with your designation of the 'original reviewer'. Issues of racism and representations of race in our society are fraught, and no matter how hard people try to to get it right, me included, others will judge them to be wrong, and worse.

[Hushpuppy]

Justine wrote (#45): " I have to disagree with your designation of the 'original reviewer'"

For what it's worth, I disagree too. The name-calling brings absolutely nothing to the conversation. The 'original reviewer' also never said that a white writer could not write about a black character.

[Hushpuppy]

AB76 wrote (#36): "i love subtitled shows and the Kim Wall murder investigation is enthralling, Maebritt is an interesting character"

I know what you mean AB, but I'm still not too comfortable with the word 'enthralling' being used to qualify the investigation of such a gruesome murder. Everything was made not to glorify that pathetic and devious narcissist or to sensationalise the investigation. Once you're done with the episodes (I know you don't binge-watch), you might like this article in the G written by the director: The Investigation: why my drama about Kim Wall doesn't name her killer.

[Hushpuppy]

Justine wrote (#24): "I saw it[An English Murder] mentioned here, though I don't recall by whom. Then I found it in my library. Hare, the pseudonym of a judge, also wrote several legal crime tales."

I thought it was Andy, but nope, it was MK/Kincaid https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Harry]

Hushpuppy wrote: "

For what it's worth, I disagree too. The name-calling brings absolutely nothing to the conversation. The 'original reviewer' also never said that a white writer could not write about a black character."

Two false statements in one post? You are on a roll, aren't you?

1) Hushpuppy wrote: "For what it's worth, I disagree too. The name-calling brings absolutely nothing to the conversation.

What "name calling" ?

Chop chop, point out the "name calling" in any of my posts.

If you can't, apologise.

2)Hushpuppy wrote: "The 'original reviewer' also never said that a white writer could not write about a black character."

This is what is known as a Straw Man, as you should well know, and has no place in a discussion group like ETLS, least of all a discussion covering freedom of expression among writers and race.

The "Original Reviewer" stated:
"The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I take that to mean:
"it would be offensive if a white author wrote black characters behaving in what the black author of the book presumably felt was a genuine and believable fashion."

Why don't you cut the "I'm so woke" fugnuggle and write to Paul Beatty and see how he feels about only writing white characters who conform to people's pre-concieved ideas of what a white character should or should not say? because the flip side of this is "If Paul Beatty doesn't write all white characters as [insert pre-concieved notion] he's an Uncle Tom / racist." which I'm sure he is not, nor would he want to be.

I'm also fairly sure he wouldn't want to be a dishonest narrator, which is what this kind of wokery seeks to force onto writers in order it can feel pleased with itself.

[scarletnoir]

Tam wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Harry wrote: "Justine wrote: "The novel is full of race-related gags that would be offensive if a white person wrote them"

I find it offensive that as a writer, I couldn't writ..."


You make many different points here - I agree with some, but not so much with others.

Jokes - I pretty much never repeat jokes, as I can't remember them - but in any case, nowadays I'd not repeat any joke which could be misconstrued, as the 'audience' might take it the wrong way - unless. of course, the people present are well known to me, and will understand where I'm coming from. I like to tease my wife with such borderline humour, as she knows perfectly well where I 'really' stand - but would think twice (or twenty times) before making the same comment with 'just anyone'. (These comments aren't set-piece jokes, but observations arising naturally out of ongoing situations or conversations.)

Of course, humour can get tricky in company - in early years with my wife, we'd watch Allo, Allo - which is packed with stereotypes - René, the cafe owner, is frequently caught by his wife in compromising situations with tasty waitress Michelle, and on being accused comes up with "You stupid woman! Can you not see....", followed by some cock and bull explanation. I took to using the phrase whenever my (highly intelligent) wife said something daft - as we all do from time to time. Her friends, though, weren't in on our couple-humour, and were initially shocked! Shows how careful you have to be...

As for actors playing something different to what they are - well, they are 'actors', and it would be a bit tricky to cast shows where a multiple murderer had to be played by... a multiple murderer (for example) - so at its extremes, that is a daft argument. 'Actors' are in the business of portraying characters different to their own... but there are limits. These days, with plenty of excellent black and Asian actors available, there would be no excuse at all for getting a 'white' actor to portray a character of some different ethnic group.

Moving on to other groups - I don't see it as a problem for straight actors to play gay characters or vice versa, but it's up to the writer, producer and director to choose who they think is best suited... I know that excellent gay writer Russell T Davies has insisted on using gay actors in his recent TV series It's a Sin, and I don't mind that at all - it's his creation, and he felt strongly about that casting. I just don't think it should ever be a 'rule', or some such.


I'm not sure if part of the argument is that gay actors are somehow being cheated out of work if a gay character is portrayed by a 'straight', but it's an iffy one - I'd guess that there have been far more straights acted by gays than the other way around. Rock Hudson would not have had much of a career, if he'd been restricted to playing gay roles - for example. The skill of the actor should guide the choices made by (casting) directors - IMO, of course.

Which brings me to a final point - of course Welsh actors should not be restricted to playing Welsh characters, and non-Welsh actors should be employed to act Welsh characters - so long as they have the skills. I have seen some brilliant accents done by talented players - and some absurd misjudgements. Anyone who knows Wales well will know that the North and South Wales accents are totally different - I once saw a TV play, purportedly set in the south, where many of the cast attempted N Wales accents! Try to imagine a Yorkshire set drama, with half the cast talking cockney, and you'll get the picture...

An example of casting for one characteristic whilst forgetting another occurred in the TV adaptation of JK Rowling's Lethal White - the character Della Winn is both blind and Welsh - I have just now discovered that the actress Anna Cannings, who played the role, is blind - so, no complaints can be made on that basis - but unfortunately, her attempt at a Welsh accent sounded more Irish than anything - a real mess, which made it difficult to engage with those scenes. Good intentions, eh?