What Are We Reading? 1 February 2021

[Bill]

This has reminded me that some time ago I picked up a copy of The Children's Blizzard. Is it better to read it now as I'm being buffeted by weekly snowstorms, or save it to be counter-programming during summer's dog days?

[Lljones]

Bill wrote: "This has reminded me that some time ago I picked up a copy of The Children's Blizzard. Is it better to read it now as I'm being buffeted by weekly snowstorms, or save it to be counter..."

I'd probably wait for summer's dog days.

Looks interesting, I've added it to TBR list. I've never understood why settlers to that area stayed after the first year of brutal winters and miserable summers.

[Andy]

Lljones wrote: "Bill wrote: "This has reminded me that some time ago I picked up a copy of The Children's Blizzard. Is it better to read it now as I'm being buffeted by weekly snowstorms, or save it ..."

I saw some quite negative reviews of this. It actually put me off. So I’m keen to hear what you think.
Recommended instead was The Stout-Hearted Seven: Orphaned on the Oregon Trail

[Lljones]

Andy wrote: "Recommended instead was The Stout-Hearted Seven: Orphaned on the Oregon Trail
..."

Thanks for that, Andy, I'll take a look.

I have several groups of ancestors who walked the Oregon Trail. My maternal gr-gr-gr-grandmother Mary Irvine and her five sons traveled from Missouri to Oregon in 1858. Mary and one of her sons had TB, so they travelled by wagon; the others walked most of the 2000 miles, over four months and under extreme conditions. Last phase of the trek involved loading their wagons and gear onto barges, floating down the Columbia River, taking everything off the barges and carrying everything around the Celilo Falls, putting everything back on the barges to float on down the river to Oregon City where everyone disembarked. Mary's sons asked "Shall we stop here?" and she replied, "No, not yet." They travelled another 30 miles down the Willamette River to Salem, asked "Here, Ma?". She said "Yes, here." And died four hours later.

[Andy]

It certainly interests me.
Hopefully the books do as well.

[Tam]

Lljones wrote: "Andy wrote: "Recommended instead was The Stout-Hearted Seven: Orphaned on the Oregon Trail
..."

Thanks for that, Andy, I'll take a look.

I have several groups of ancestors who walked the Oregon T..."
What a phenomenal journey, and what a trial. Do you know what prompted them to attempt it? I read a harrowing account, but many years ago, so I don't remember the actual title, or author, of the book, but an account of a journey, by 'wagon train' by settlers who got as far as lake Tahoe, but got snowed in, over the winter, in their attempt to resettle in California. Many died along the way...

At least it wasn't Salem, Massachusettes! (I had to look it up! as I thought that was the Salem that you were talking about, which kind of didn't make much sense with the story description)... but hopefully the other Salem turned out to be a happy and welcoming place, for those that survived...

Lljones wrote: "Andy wrote: "Recommended instead was The Stout-Hearted Seven: Orphaned on the Oregon Trail
..."

Thanks for that, Andy, I'll take a look.

I have several groups of ancestors who walked the Oregon T..."

[Lljones]

Tam wrote: "What a phenomenal journey, and what a trial. Do you know what prompted them to attempt it?.."

I'm about 20 years and 200 miles away from the genealogical research I did on this family line, so I apologize in advance for errors, gaps, hazy memories, etc.

Like I said before, the Irvines are just one of my family lines with Oregon Trail histories, but they are the ones most documented. This line starts out as direct descendants of Robert the Bruce, so their migrations traversed a number of interesting historical epochs, long before they ended up in the US pre-Revolutionary War.

For the most part, the impending American Civil War prompted Mary Irvine and her sons to head West when the Oregon Territories and the Homestead Act came into play. Mary and her late husband Samuel Irvine had relocated to Missouri from Kentucky after Sam's father, slave owner Robert Irvine, died in the mid-1840's. Robert divided his significant estate between pro-slavery sons who dug deeper into the South, and anti-slavery sons like the one who headed to California to establish Irvine, California, and Sam who headed North. When Sam died in Missouri, Mary and her sons headed West to get further away from the impending disaster of the Civil War.

Mary's sons were respectable citizens of the new territory of Oregon and established deep roots. Politicians, newspaper editors, successful farmers, etc. I would be 5th-generation born in Oregon (7th-generation to live in Oregon) if it were not for the fact that my mother's parents were accidentally in California when she was born!

[AB76]

Lljones wrote: "Tam wrote: "What a phenomenal journey, and what a trial. Do you know what prompted them to attempt it?.."

I'm about 20 years and 200 miles away from the genealogical research I did on this family ..."

Didion mentioned the Donner expedition, i guess that was further south? where there was some nibbling of human flesh, allegedly...

[scarletnoir]

Shelflife_wasBooklooker wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: FWIW, Barnes is one of the few current 'literary' British authors I care to read (the very different Jonathan Coe is another) - but I can't stand Martin Amis, and have gone off I..."

If you like Barnes on love, you should most definitely read Levels of Life, which is as good as anything he's ever done - IMO, of course.

Coe can be depended on to make us think a bit, and often laugh, even when not at his absolute best.

[scarletnoir]

Gpfr wrote: Ah ... I was 14 years old (in 1962-63).

Same age as me, then - hit 14 in 1962. Old enough to remember the snow!

[Tam]

AB76 wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Tam wrote: "What a phenomenal journey, and what a trial. Do you know what prompted them to attempt it?.."

I'm about 20 years and 200 miles away from the genealogical research I did..."

Ah Yes that rings a bell. It was about the Donner expedition. And it wasn't Lake Tahoe, but Donner Lake. Terrible story!...

[AB76]

Reaching the end of Flamingo Feather by South African writer and naturalist Laurens Van Der Post

a rebellion is brewing in Swaziland, Soviet agents have stirred up the Swazi tribes by exploiting the tribal tales of a great dream which will grant them freedom. our narrator traverses the South east african bush to stalk and prevent this tragedy.

Written in 1955 and set in 1948, its a stridently anti-communist novel with pages of details about the animals and plants of the bush, elements of an adventure novel, crossed with a naturalist hymn to the beauty of Africa

White characters are seldom seen and the africans have a central role, not sure why this novel isnt better known really....

[Georg]

AB76 wrote (281): "Reaching the end of Flamingo Feather by South African writer and naturalist Laurens Van Der Post

a rebellion is brewing in Swaziland, Soviet agents have stirred up the Swazi tribes by exploiting t..."

Ah, Laurens van der Post. Adviser and good friend to Maggie Thatcher, and Prince Charles in his esoteric nutter embodiment. Impregnated a 14yo girl who was put into his care ( he was 46). I could go on about his person...

When I started to read "The Lost World of the Kalahari" I knew nothing about him, however. I just found him a very mediocre writer. That and his "noble savage" shtick made me abandon the book when I was about 1/3rd in.

[CCCubbon]

I have started to read Tales from Ovid, Ted Hughes translation. Liking the following I puzzled over a couple of words;

And the earth, unbroken by plough or by hoe,
Piled the table high. Mankind
Was content to gather the abundance
Of whatever ripened.
Blackberry or strawberry , mushroom or truffle,
Every kind of nut, figs, apples, cherries,
Apricots and pears, and, ankle deep,
Acorns under the tree of the Thunderer.
Spring weather, the airs of spring,
All year long brought blossom.
The unworked earth
Whitened beneath the bowed wealth of the corn.
Rivers of milk mingled with rivers of nectar.
And out of the black oak oozed amber honey.

I wondered about the tree of the Thunderer. Acorns implied an oak tree and it sent me looking up trees. There I found that the Sessile oak was Zeus’ tree and he ruled over thunder and lightning, hence tree of the Thunderer. The black oak was another puzzle, more looking up to find that such trees are rare in UK, more at home in North America.
Mighty grand oak trees. Both the sessile oak and the English oak are native here and one can tell the difference by the leaves and the sessile acorns do not have stalks.

[MK]

I am often checking library due dates, and if there are people waiting (then I can renew a book for later read), so I can best juggle what to read next. The bad news is I can use two libraries, and like any reader, I am often like the kid in the candy store. LIFE IS SO DAMNED DIFFICULT!

Since there are 95 people waiting for Unsettled Ground: The Whitman Massacre and Its Shifting Legacy in the American West, this had to go to the top of non-fiction next list. The talk above about the Oregon Trail reminded me to do this.

This book rewrites the history of the Whitmans, missionaries in what today is southeastern Washington (1836 mission start date) and their subsequent massacre/revenge murder by Cayuse Indians.

Today in the Washington State Legislature there is now a bill to replace Marcus Whitman's statue at the US Capitol (I think each state gets to pick 2 historic figures) with that of Billy Frank, Nisqually tribe activist who was arrested many times for insisting on native fishing rights. His work was sanctified by the Boldt Decision which gave recognized tribes 50% of the fish catch (https://www.historylink.org/File/5282).

As the USA keeps moving to a majority-minority country (no matter what some want), I expect there will be more history books that examine the complexities of our history.

On a side note, last night I was working through a pile of 'what to keep, what to throw' papers and was really surprised to see that the land my house (1940 vintage) sits on has a racial covenant as part of the deed.

[Clare de la lune]

message 273 (Lljones)
What an amazing story - there's a book or movie in there somewhere!

[giveusaclue]

Lljones wrote: "Like I said before, the Irvines are just one of my family lines with Oregon Trail histories, but they are the ones most documented. This line starts out as direct descendants of Robert the Bruce, so their migrations traversed a number of interesting historical epochs, long before they ended up in the US pre-Revolutionary War..."



In which case you must be a distant relation of Queen Elizabeth II who is a descendant of Robert the Bruce!

[giveusaclue]

CCCubbon wrote: "I have started to read Tales from Ovid, Ted Hughes translation. Liking the following I puzzled over a couple of words;

And the earth, unbroken by plough or by hoe,
Piled the table high. Mankind ..."

Ah, O level Latin 1964 The Metamorphoses of Ovid. Midas and the touch of gold if I remember rightly. Funnily enough, same year as the big snow we were talking about!

[Tam]

giveusaclue wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Like I said before, the Irvines are just one of my family lines with Oregon Trail histories, but they are the ones most documented. This line starts out as direct descendants of Rob..."

I kinda have to ask Lisa, as to whether there is a genetic disposition to study spiders, in the family, perhaps? Or maybe Mario does that for you? My cat Possum was an inveterate spider worrier!... amongst other beings, as well!..

[[deleted user]]

Giveus – Yes, and the second part of the story that we, or at least I, always forget – that he was forgiven and allowed to take back his wish, but not his stupidity, which led to him later to say out loud that the music of Pan was truer than the music of the great god Apollo, who punished him with ass’s ears, a secret which a barber could not keep to himself, but whispered into a hole in the ground at the dead of night, which secret was in no time spread on every gust of wind – all brilliantly rendered by Ted Hughes.

[Shelflife_wasBooklooker]

scarletnoir wrote (#78): "If you like Barnes on love"

I verified it today: I do, still — despite the didacticism in this half-chapter of A History of the World in 10½ Chapters, which I misplaced, by the way (quite embarrassed about this). The half-chapter is not at all in the center, but between chapters 8 and 9, so more towards the end, and titled "Parenthesis".

For someone who winces a bit when people on the train end their calls with a casual "love ya" (that would be me), this quote seems a good one:

"“I love you." For a start, we'd better put these words on a high shelf; in a square box behind glass which we have to break with our elbow; in a bank. We shouldn't leave them lying around the house like a tube of vitamin C. If the words come too easily to hand, we'll use them without thought; we won't be able to resist. Oh, we say we won't, but we will. We'll get drunk, or lonely, or - likeliest of all - plain damn hopeful, and there are the words gone, used up, grubbied. We think we might be in love and we're trying out the words to see if they're appropriate? How can we know what we think till we hear what we say? Come off it; that won't wash. These are grand words; we must make sure we deserve them. Listen to them again: "I love you.”"

But what I was reminded of when I read of Pat Kavanagh's death was in fact this passage, which I think touching and to the point, despite the wry skepticism also apparent in "Parenthesis".

“Our nights are different. She falls asleep like someone yielding to the gentle tug of a warm tide, and floats with confidence till morning. I fall asleep more grudgingly, thrashing at the waves, either reluctant to let a good day depart or still bitching about a bad one. Different currents run through our spells of unconsciousness.
[...]
Anyway... she's asleep, turned away from me on her side. The usual stratagems and repositionings have failed to induce narcosis in me, so I decide to settle myself against the soft zigzag of her body. As I move and start to nestle my shin against a calf whose muscles are loosened by sleep, she sense what I'm doing, and without waking reaches up with her left hand and pulls the hair off her shoulders on the top of her head, leaving me her bare nape to nestle in. Each time she does this I feel a shudder of love at the exactness of this sleeping courtesy.”

scarletnoir continues (#78): "you should most definitely read Levels of Life, which is as good as anything he's ever done - IMO, of course."

Thanks for the reminder - I have owned it for a while, but I have not read it yet. I am a bit afraid of the grief aspect of it just now, to be honest...

scarletnoir also wrote (#78): "Coe can be depended on to make us think a bit, and often laugh, even when not at his absolute best."

That's it, exactly! I have been thinking about a reread of The House of Sleep at some point. Very biting and dry sense of humour, if I recall correctly. Some preposterous scenes.

[Shelflife_wasBooklooker]

CCCubbon wrote: "I have started to read Tales from Ovid, Ted Hughes translation."

Thank you, CCC, I am very interested in looking into this.

You might enjoy the following — link leading to three pages with some visual art and also recordings of Hughes' readings? https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/pa...

I had some wonderful discoveries reading a book on Ovid and the art derived from Metamorphoses some time ago. It's not English-language, I am afraid (Ovids Metamorphosen und die bildende Kunst). But this one is English-language and might be a good find, too: Ovid and the Metamorphoses of Modern Art from Botticelli to Picasso.
Here's a link to the publisher's page: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/97803...

I have many, many favourites, but Bernini's Apollo and Daphne statue, to me, seems to bring Ovid's transformations alive in stone. It felt stunning seeing it in Rome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdnPd...
(excellent views of the statue from all points of view, commentary can be silenced, of course).

[Shelflife_wasBooklooker]

Andy wrote: "The Proof by César Aira, translated by Nick Caistor.
This is a stand-out and memorable opening to a book...
Wannafuck?
Sixteen year-old..."

I liked your review and I think I might like this book.
Thank you!

[FranHunny]

I owe you a review of The Body: Bryson goes from conception to death, describes the parts of our bodies and at least some of the science behind it and all with his (probably acquired) British Humor. He's not squeemish. And that's how I like my science.

[Tam]

FranHunny wrote: "I owe you a review of The Body: Bryson goes from conception to death, describes the parts of our bodies and at least some of the science behind it and all with his (probably acquired) British Humor..."

Fran I have been hauled over a few 'experimental coals' in trying to get to grips with Wordpress, but it now seems my site exists in a reasonable state, thanks to our sons kind, but distant input, from Barcelona, but what I don't understand is what information you put in or don't, in terms of who might wish to contact you, as a wordpress user. I am loath to put in my e-mail address, for obvious reasons, but does this mean that no one can contact you at all? or can they reply, or at least make a comment, on the site web page, and can I reply to that. I don't know, nor does my son as he doesn't use it, he is just a lot more adept at finding out about this sort of stuff, than I am. Can you enlighten me, if possible? thanks

[Lljones]

Tam wrote: "Ah Yes that rings a bell. It was about the Donner expedition. And it wasn't Lake Tahoe, but Donner Lake. Terrible story!.."


PBS "American Experience" made an excellent documentary on the Donner Party some years ago.

[Lljones]

Tam wrote: "I kinda have to ask Lisa, as to whether there is a genetic disposition to study spiders, in the family, perhaps? Or maybe Mario does that for you?..."

Mario is the supreme Spider Stalker in this family. He is quite adept at spotting all spiders (and ants), alive or dead, visible or invisible, under the couch or on top of the wardrobe, disguised as poppy or rye seeds. He is, in fact, trying to find one he is certain is under the dishwasher, even as we speak.

[Lljones]

giveusaclue wrote: "In which case you must be a distant relation of Queen Elizabeth II who is a descendant of Robert the Bruce!
..."

A friend adopted a new puppy this week and named him Robert the Bruce, because she had recently discovered she was a descendent. I guess there are quite a few of us that can claim the same!

[Lljones]

Clare de la lune wrote: "message 273 (Lljones)
What an amazing story - there's a book or movie in there somewhere!"

Luckily, this family saga was well-documented long before I started digging into it. My gr-gr-grandfather joined some sort of Oregon Pioneer society circa 1900 and many of his stories were recorded in the society's annals and in the local newspapers. He related stories like "We left Kentucky and spent seven years in Missouri to rest the mules before heading West" and "we returned home after the Morman uprisings(*) to find everything intact except the fiddle, smashed to smithereens."

*Just want to acknowledge that the "Morman uprisings" are a much-disputed historical event.

[CCCubbon]

Shelflife
Thank you for the references. I have copied your post and pasted it in notes so that I may refer to it easily as I work my way through.
Give
I was not aware that it was a GCSE text book. I shall have fun with this . I am sure that you will find that I post more on it - and ask questions!

[Shelflife_wasBooklooker]

For the quizzers here:
Anyone inclined to guess books' titles by word clouds (most common English words excluded for feasibility)?

https://www.sporcle.com/games/uberger...

I made 15 out of 25. Not so bad considering my memory for names... There is always room for improvement. Careful about misspelling, though. I lost two points that way...


Edit@CCC: I will glad if they increase your having fun!

[Shelflife_wasBooklooker]

Machenbach wrote: "19."

Well, if that's your score, this would prove to me that the quiz is not too easy, at least!
Same is true for me as regards your spoiler (and some others).

Will you post a review of Malina for us, Mach?
And have I told you before that I read it with chattering teeth in a tent at night once? All on my own, except for potentially creepy neighbours at the campsite, which did not help...

Along with Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, which I read during a bout of flu contributing to a sort of feverish state, certainly my most frighteningly intense/ intensely frightening reading experience.

[Gpfr]

Shelflife_wasBooklooker wrote: "Machenbach wrote: "19."

Well, if that's your score, this would prove to me that the quiz is not too easy, at least!
Same is true for me as regards your spoiler (and some others) ..."

Thanks for the fun quiz - I got 17, but ran out of time for the last one, which I would have got 😒. Same for me about no chance with some.

[AB76]

Machenbach wrote: "Shelflife_wasBooklooker wrote: "Will you post a review of Malina for us, Mach?."

I had to abandon it about 100 pages in as I just can't concentrate for long enough to hope to do it any justice. I ..."

coincidentally i was debating whether to read "Malina" next but then i settled for a Khushwant Singh novel

i agree that Ginzburg/Ditlevsen and Bachmann are probably too much altogether, but better spaced out.

i must return to Ditlevsen, part 2 of the Copenhagen triology

[FrancesBurgundy]

Gpfr wrote: "Shelflife_wasBooklooker wrote: "Machenbach wrote: "19."

."

Brilliant quiz, best fun I've had all week. I got 19, most of which I haven't read. I had read two that I got wrong which is annoying - but in the greater scheme of things ....

[Amelia]

The quiz was great, though it took me far too long to realise that I had typed (view spoiler)[Iliad (hide spoiler)] with two 'l's and that was why it wasn't being accepted!

(edited because I just made the exact same spelling mistake)

[Lljones]

Good morning, folks: I've reached out to Justine, who hasn't been around for a few days. I'll keep you posted.

[Gpfr]

Lljones wrote: "Good morning, folks: I've reached out to Justine, who hasn't been around for a few days. I'll keep you posted."

I was wondering - hope she's OK.

[Paul]

Lljones wrote: "Good morning, folks: I've reached out to Justine, who hasn't been around for a few days. I'll keep you posted."

Oh, I hope she's doing well. I had noticed her absence these past few days, although it looks like she has been active quite recently

[AB76]

Machenbach wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Machenbach wrote: "Shelflife_wasBooklooker wrote: "Will you post a review of Malina for us, Mach?."

I had to abandon it about 100 pages in as I just can't concentrate for long enough ..."

good point, the sole perspective for 100 pages.....can be somewhat prohibitve, even by the best writers. i think for me it depends on my mood, regarding tolerance, i read a Handke novel on my commute that was pitched just right for that time in my life, i wonder if i would be so indulgent now. It supplied thinking space and contemplation, amid the sheer boredom of a train ride

[AB76]

Paul wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Good morning, folks: I've reached out to Justine, who hasn't been around for a few days. I'll keep you posted."

Oh, I hope she's doing well. I had noticed her absence these past f..."

i had noticed she was quiet too, lets hope its nothing serious

[Amelia]

Lljones wrote: "Good morning, folks: I've reached out to Justine, who hasn't been around for a few days. I'll keep you posted."

Hope everything's ok

[Greenfairy]

AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Good morning, folks: I've reached out to Justine, who hasn't been around for a few days. I'll keep you posted."

Oh, I hope she's doing well. I had noticed her absence..."

AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Good morning, folks: I've reached out to Justine, who hasn't been around for a few days. I'll keep you posted."

Oh, I hope she's doing well. I had noticed her absence..."

AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Good morning, folks: I've reached out to Justine, who hasn't been around for a few days. I'll keep you posted."

Oh, I hope she's doing well. I had noticed her absence
I hope that she's doing well too, and is aware that we are all wishing her well.

[Hushpuppy]

Paul wrote (#312): "I had noticed her absence these past few days, although it looks like she has been active quite recently"

Yes, inter has not been feeling too great this week, but at least as you say there have been signs of very restricted activity Saturday and yesterday. I'm quite worried though, I hope there is somebody close who can help if need be...

[Hushpuppy]

Shelflife_wasBooklooker wrote (#302): "Machenbach wrote: "19."

Well, if that's your score, this would prove to me that the quiz is not too easy, at least!"

Well, that timer got me stressed this morning! Got 15 in total, but really should have been able to get the answers to 15 and 22 (kicking myself for these ones, esp. as I've read them). At least, I've heard of all the others, except 13.

I've only discovered Mach's spoiler last year because of this by our very own Sam.

Edit: And thanks for the fab quiz!

[AB76]

Hushpuppy wrote: "Paul wrote (#312): "I had noticed her absence these past few days, although it looks like she has been active quite recently"

Yes, inter has not been feeling too great this week, but at least as y..."

gosh....this doesnt sound good

[Sandya]

Do we start a new page today? I have a review I wanted to post but I'd rather post to the start of a new thread than the end of an old one.

[Lljones]

Amelia wrote: "The quiz was great, though it took me far too long to realise that I had typed [spoilers removed] with two 'l's and that was why it wasn't being accepted!

I didn't realize there was a timer. I was 7 for 7 when I got up to see what Mario had knocked down (a bottle of shampoo from a 6-foot-tall cupboard). Came back to find the quiz had expired.

[Lljones]

Machenbach wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Do we start a new page today? I have a review I wanted to post but I'd rather post to the start of a new thread than the end of an old one."
Maybe post here and then copy it if a new..."

Yes, Sandya, I agree with mb. I'll leave this page open until I hear back from Justine.

(It could be that her internet issues have returned. So far my email to her is unanswered, and I didn't get through by phone either.)

[AB76]

OK so new week..new books and some still in process, there is light snowfall in the Shires, small flakes fluttering down and its perishing...1c only. (heating may remain on till 4pm....gadzooks, then back on around 8pm)

The next classic novel will be:

I Shall Not Hear The Nightingale BY Khushwant Singh(1959)

Its been too long since my last Indian novel (8 years in fact, though 4 Pakistani novels in that period) and the setting of early WW2 Amritsar is fascinating. Singh was a maverick voice of India in his lifetime and i loved his column in the Hindustan Times


Suprised by Joy by CS Lewis (1955) Non-fiction/Memoir

Its WW1 and Lewis is ensconced in Great Bookham, not far from me, cramming with an eccentric old Ulster compadre of his fathers. Lewis is fascinated by the Surrey countryside, so different to his native County Down

Memoirs of a Life Cut Short by Ricardis Gavelis (1989) Fiction

Written in the perestroika era, this Lithuanian novel published by Vagabond "Changelings" is a wry,stark account of a dead man writing letters to an estranged friend and is the latest in my Cold War series of novels written east of the curtain from 1955-1990

Letters from London and Europe by Di Lampedusa

A wonderful collection of witty,observational letters from the author of "The Leopard". Like when reading the letters of Eca De Querios in the autumn, london and england comes to life in the eyes of a foreign writer...

lastly, i hope Justine is ok....