Reading the 20th Century discussion
This topic is about
Nervous Conditions
Group reads
>
Nervous Conditions by Tsitsi Dangarembga (April 2021)
Adina wrote: "I also liked how she (Tambu) questions being a Christian as a sign of progress...."There aren't too many comments about religion in a book which focuses on the patriarchy and on colonialism and its legacy. I think you make a good point here Adina. the work of the Christian missions and of the governing (White) institutions, while operating side by side, are actually different.
The influence of the missions is more insidious, but the aim is ultimately similar, the subjugation of an inferior, or primitive people (as they saw it). Not the gun, but the pulpit.
Many (the great majority) of the interesting comments in this string focus specifically on Tambu; her journey, her independent streak (or her compliance, depending on your viewpoint), her persona as a voice of a nascent feminism.While Tambu is the central character, I think it may be to miss some of the most forceful points that Dangarembga is making if the reader doesn't take account of the (I think much stronger) observations and opinions made by the supporting cast.
Right at the outset (page 1), Tambu says " My story is about my escape and Lucia's; about my mothers and Maiguru's entrapment; and about Nyasha's rebellion" .
The final sentence says "my own story, the story of four women whom I loved, and our men"
Each one of the other women is kicking back (in different ways) against, especially, the patriarchy; Tambu is just a child so she's limited in what she can do, and muddled in her thinking about what she wants, and what its right to aspire to.
The other four women are in no doubt whatsoever.
Nyasha says it bluntly: " All these conflicts came back to this question of femaleness. Femaleness as opposed and inferior to maleness" (p. 116)
Nervous Conditions is a very clever book title and one that is a whole discussion point in its own right.What Jean Paul Sartre's key sentence said in full (as part of a lengthy preface) was:
"The status of 'native' is a nervous condition introduced and maintained by the settler among colonized people with their consent"
The last three words were italicized for emphasis
Look no further than Mukoma (Babamukuru) for the embodiment of what Dangaremba identified as the malaise that would continue to affect a nation, even in a post colonial era.
Nyasha (again) seeing the bigger picture nails it: " To forget who you were, what you were and why you were that. The process, she said, was called assimilation.." (p.178)
Dangaremba, early in the book, witheringly, and ironically, describes Mukoma as a " promising young African".
Jonathan wrote: " Nervous Conditions is a very clever book title and one that is a whole discussion point in its own right.What Jean Paul Sartre's key sentence said in full (as part of a lengthy preface) was:
"..."
Absolutely but importantly 'consent' is italicised because it's not consent in the most basic sense, it's consent borne out of a form of what Sartre calls 'colonial neurosis'. I suppose that's why I referred to it as hegemonic in that it fits well with Gramscian ideas about how the oppressed "consent" to their oppression. Although Sartre's preface to Fanon's quite dated and highly problematic in places, there are some interesting points re: this novel i.e. the destruction of culture, language, the 'split' in consciousness that comes out of this process.
Mod
And yes, Alwynne, TD is actively in dialogue with previous writings. One of the qualities I love most about her writing is the way she doesn't hold back on her scathing irony - her audacity is exhilarating (though perhaps also dangerous given her recent arrest).
Btw, who's read Sartre and where's a good place to start? I've dipped into Fanon but haven't read any of his books in full.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Good points, Jonathan, about areas we haven't discussed in detail - more to come on this thanks to your prompts.And yes, Alwynne, TD is actively in dialogue with previous writings. One of the qua..."
If you're interested in Sartre as a philosopher then might read Sarah Bakewell's At the Existentialist Café: Freedom, Being, and Apricot Cocktails good for getting a sense of where he was coming from. Then if you're still interested try Existentialism and Humanism it's fairly short, not too technical and a good overview of his early work. Hardly anyone reads his later stuff. If you're thinking more of Sartre as a novelist then a lot of people start with Nausea but the only fiction of his I've enjoyed, or found interesting at least, is his Roads to Freedom series starting with The Age of Reason If you wanted to branch out into/or into more de Beauvoir, I found her memoirs fascinating although they're mostly out of print except for the first one, been thinking I might re-read them soon.
Mod
www.goodreads.com/topic/show/21949476...
Alwynne wrote: "Absolutely but importantly 'consent' is italicised because it's not consent in the most basic sense, it's consent borne out of a form of what Sartre calls 'colonial neurosis'. I suppose that's why I referred to it as hegemonic in that it fits well with Gramscian ideas about how the oppressed "consent" to their oppression..."Absolutely spot on, Alwynne. I like the Gramsci connection.
Alwynne wrote: "Jonathan wrote: " Nervous Conditions is a very clever book title and one that is a whole discussion point in its own right...."
I think I fully understand the nuances of Nervous Conditions as book title choice for the underlying point made by Dangarembga (Gramsci useful in amplifying this).
Have you read This Mournable Body , Alwynne?
Dangarambga reprises her use of third party scholarship in her book title to broaden a debate; and the latter book (2018) takes its title from Teju Cole. Aligning the underlying meaning behind the Cole essay to Dangarembga's book is much more problematic I found.
Jonathan wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Jonathan wrote: " Nervous Conditions is a very clever book title and one that is a whole discussion point in its own right...."
I think I fully understand the nuances of Nervous C..."
Thanks Jonathan, glad the Gramsci reference was helpful! I've never read anything of hers before, I love Teju Cole though, his Open City is a favourite, I've read his essay collection too but a while ago. Is it included in that? I'll have to dig it out and see what I can make of it.
Mod
In some ways, Christianity is the ultimate patriarchy ('the Father, the Son...'), so I definitely saw the mission school and then the convent school as being on a continuum with, and inflected by, colonial politics.
I was reminded of Frost in May which has an English girl whose individuality, spirit and sense of identity have to be broken and remoulded according to the nuns' views of what femininity should look like.
So, for me, there were interesting ways in which race, gender and class all intersected in the book.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "There aren't too many comments about religion in a book which focuses on the patriarchy and on colonialism and its legacy."In some ways, Christianity is the ultimate patriarchy (..."
Absolutely, and I think of missions and missionaries being key in upholding the values of the colonisers and being a way of 'naturalising' them. The Antonia White, great novel, is a really interesting comparison,.
Mod
The final sentence says "my own story, the story of four women whom I loved, and our men""
I particularly noted that final sentence as I wasn't completely sure that that's the story we had just read. Tambu's story, yes, but mere fragments of the others.
And while Nyasha is the most obviously rebellious, she's also the one who succumbs to anorexia/bulimia which, I think, is more typically a 'western' disease associated with affluent countries. I saw that looking forward figuratively to The Book of Not where Nyasha is starting to make her own flesh disappear, absenting her own body.
I ended up feeling Nyasha was a piteous figure after all her early fire and revolt.
Mod
Nyasha had been my favourite character in Nervous Conditions. I liked how Nyasha's whole family represented different poles of European influence, and I saw the evolution of her character as a comment on the limitations of European modern ideas for solving Africa's problems.SPOILER ALERT
I regretted the way Tracey increasingly took Nyasha's place as the significant female peer influence on Tambu.
Mod
So there's still some residual and ongoing influence from Nyasha but not necessarily a positive one. Is there also a subliminal message about not walking in someone else's shoes?
Great example about how the European fit is wrong for Tambu!
I got my timing wrong and needed to finish some other books before starting this one, so I'll be coming to this late. I'm in the middle of it now and enjoying it. I'll be back to read through this lively thread soon!
Subliminal message about not walking in someone else’s shoes?Could be.
Alternatively, Diana, strong, wilful, independent, creating new rules.
What every woman looking to break her own mould should be looking to emulate????!
Mod
What every woman looking to break her own mould should be looking to emulate????!."
Gosh, we clearly read Diana in very different ways, Jonathan! For me, she was a woman with minimal educational qualifications and proud of it, who bought into a fairytale idea of being a princess, marriage and motherhood and threw her toys out the pram when that was revealed as a sham.
I think it's good that she did charity work in support of HIV, mental health and so on, but strong? Independent? To me she was all about playing the martyr and victim.
This might well be an age thing as I was a child. I just can't help contrasting her 'I'm as thick as two planks' mentality with Michelle Obama who went into schools and told (tells) girls it's cool to be clever.
But an interesting example of how individually weighted literary references might be :)
Mod
Excellent, Ang. It's always good to have people read at a different pace and revive the discussions. Looking forward to your thoughts.
RC it’s an interesting and controversial subject probably best left for another time.Diana and Michelle. Two women whose fame/ notoriety came about specifically as a consequence of the man each one married.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Alternatively, Diana, strong, wilful, independent, creating new rules.What every woman looking to break her own mould should be looking to emulate????!."
Gosh, we clearly read Di..."
While maybe slightly less harsh, my reading of Diana's closest to yours, and she seems to me to embody a particular stereotypically white, Western ideal of womanhood and so is worlds away from Tambu, I do tend to be more charitable and think of her as more like the vacuous women in Edith Wharton's The Custom of the Country very much shaped by a particular set of social and cultural constraints, and then trapped by them. I'd root for Michelle every time too! As for the shoes think the 'walk a mile' is apt, but Diana and Nyasha do have some overlap, in terms of the manifestations of their distress through eating disorders, and trying to live up to a model of feminine beauty that's destructive and restrictive, including wearing uncomfortable shoes because it's what expected or what certain types of men think are appropriate or attractive. Rather like those city firms where the women were expected to wear high heels.
Mod
Diana and Michelle. Two women whose fame/ notoriety came about specifically as a consequence of the man each one married."
Yes, sorry, hope I didn't upset anyone with my personal reading of Diana. I guess one of the differences, though, is that Michelle Obama might have come to notice on the world stage via her husband, but she'd already had an impressive career and history of community activism in her own right before that.
Mod
Ah yes, Undine Spragg - fabulous comparison! And that sense of constantly searching for happiness through external things and people and not really understanding why it remains elusive.
I'd also noted the eating disorder and would guess that that was no coincidence when taken with the Princess Di shoes, coming from an author as astute as TD.
As you say, Alwynne, shoes are such politicised objects, both positively and negatively (an excellent little book on this subject is High Heel, my review: www.goodreads.com/book/show/31848157) and it's not surprising that they trace their way through the trilogy.
Mod
Mod
I loved it, and think the three books make up a strong trilogy with internal unity.
RC You make a valid point about anorexia/ bulimia being a predominately Western phenomenon.
“the psychiatrist said that Nyasha could not be ill, that Africans did not suffer in the way we had described” (201)
The book is set in and published in 1988, the narrative is set in the late 1960’s.
It was only in 1983 that Karen Carpenter’s death, following her anorexia, brought the descriptive term and awareness to a wider public.
Nyasha’s illness was predominantly bulimia, and this was even less discussed (I would say that Lady Diana’s (second reference on this thread), brought this publicity for the first time.
So Dangaembga was ahead of her time, and certainly very contemporary in introducing the subject.
While both anorexia and bulimia are physically devastating, and associated with the predominantly Western image consciousness of “it’s in to be thin”, the underlying cause is generally agreed to be psychological. Given Nyasha’s increasing sense of helplessness, the older she got, it struck me that this was one of a very limited number of rebellious actions open to her in the face of the dominating Babamukuru, and a deeper sense of loss of her cultural identity.
I say all the above while not having had immediate experience of anorexia/ bulimia and I apologise if I’m saying anything glib, or inaccurate.
Mod
I think it's better understood now that these are complex illnesses that are bound up in complicated ways with body dysmorphia and a perverse sense of taking control, a response, as you say, to Nyasha's sense of helplessness. It's also, certainly in Nyasha's case, an example of self-harming and also, I'd say, a cry from her for help and notice.
What a interesting and lively discussion. Thank you, everyone.Having grown up in the US, I can say that there, both anorexia and bulimia were known and discussed as similar but different conditions and at the same time. I remember seeing a movie about girls being treated for these conditions in an institution - I think it was a made-for-TV movie and I think it may have been before Karen Carpenter (there is also an excellent film about Karen Carpenter.) I remember one of the girls joking to another that if she cut off all her beautiful long hair she'd lose weight.
I was surprised to see that people think Tambu is unlikeable. I liked her. She cannot know exactly what she is or what she wants - she's too young, and any insight into these things comes from the narrator as an older person.
As I got further along in the book, I thought it was less about Tambu. It struck me as a book where the seemingly main character is painting a picture of others more so than herself, and in particular I think it was mostly about Nyasha.
I absolutely loved this book. I loved This Mournable Body when I read it last year and I'm glad I read them in this order.
I don't necessarily agree that a book in a trilogy needs to stand alone, but certainly, for me, a Booker nominated book needs to stand alone.
I think the perception of Tambu as unlikeable is stronger among those who read This Mournable Body first - in that sense it is better to read them all in order.
Mod
Yes, good point, Hugh - and that goes back to the question of whether TMB really stands alone or not.
Maybe it's more accurate to describe Tambu as difficult? There's often a disjunction between her inner thoughts and outer demeanor, I felt. Also, I found her empathetic and understandable even at her worst (view spoiler), and appreciated the complicated characterisation.
Ang wrote:"I was surprised to see that people think Tambu is unlikeable. I liked her. She cannot know exactly what she is or what she wants - she's too young, and any insight into these things comes from the narrator as an older person"
The switch between narrator voice and character voice complicates the degree to which Tambu is the architect of her sometimes contradictory views. I orginally thought of Tambu as unlikeable and I have changed my view a bit. A number of comments on this board have been food for thought. I wouldn't go as far as to say I know like, or admire her. She has the selfishness that can be typical of teenagers, and I think she is the vistim and representation of poor parenting.
As I got further along in the book, I thought it was less about Tambu. It struck me as a book where the seemingly main character is painting a picture of others more so than herself, and in particular I think it was mostly about Nyasha.
Tambu rocks! and I suspect that there's not a little of the author, Tsitsi Dangarembga, in her character.
I don't necessarily agree that a book in a trilogy needs to stand alone, but certainly, for me, a Booker nominated book needs to stand alone. ..."
I think both Nervous Conditions and This Mournable Body are excellent as stand alone books and I would recommned both of them to friends as such. I guess what strikes me is how little changed Tambu is beteeen the late 1960's, and forty years later. The Independence of 1980 revolutionised the government but the nervous condition is little different in Tambu.
Hugh wrote: "I think the perception of Tambu as unlikeable is stronger among those who read This Mournable Body first - in that sense it is better to read them all in order."I agree with that (having read TMB first).
Tambu is so young in Nervous Conditions and we mostly make much greater allowances for adolescents I think.
SPOILER ALERTI'm unsure about the spoiler rules here, so if reading possible spoilers about the novel is a problem please ignore this post. I see no way to write this without referring to plot developments, but I will avoid being more specific than necessary. I've hidden the portion about the second and third novel.
My perception of Tambu certainly changed through the books. In Nervous Conditions I was impressed by her determination to progress beyond the limitations of her village life and the roles marked out for her as a woman, particularly in denying her an education equal to her brother's. I felt justified excusing her mixed feelings about her brother's death, for which she bore no responsibility.
In The Book of Not and This Mournable Body, she (view spoiler)
So, taking into account the complete set, I'm in the "not likeable" camp. I empathise with her, but I'd probably also keep my distance.
I am just over half way through The Book of Not and I find Tambu to be easy to empathize with and, if not totally likeable, not unlikeable. To me, the main unlikeable event is her callousness over her brother's fate. Otherwise, she's a fine protagonist.I am finding the second book a smoother read than the first, probably because it is easier to visualize and also centers more on Tambu than the first. Also, I'm a sucker for boarding school tales and find even mundane events interesting in this school's setting.
Brian wrote: "Also, I'm a sucker for boarding school tales and find even mundane events interesting in this school's setting."In that case, can I recommend Our Lady of the Nile - published in the UK for the first time last month; originally published in French in 2012 and then in the US in 2014. The new UK edition is the same translation as the US edition.
There are some common themes with Nervous Conditions, though it's based in Rwanda.
I will need to re-read This Mournable Body, but I don't think I disliked Tambu in that book either.
Brian wrote: "I am just over half way through The Book of Not and I find Tambu to be easy to empathize with and, if not totally likeable, not unlikeable. To me, the main unlikeable event is her c..."Second Ang's recommendation although have only read a couple of chapters of 'Our Lady...' I put it aside to finish this and another group read. I have a school stories shelf if you're interested btw!
Alwynne wrote: "..I have a school stories shelf if you're interested btw!"Thanks, it is an interesting compilation, that doesn't contain a single book I have read. The Henry Green is attractive and I have thought of reading Ivy Compton-Burnett someday. She's an author I seem to hear about on here yet seems little read. Her most read book, A House and Its Head, only has 393 GR ratings.
Both authors have consistent methods of titling books. Green likes one word titles often ending in 'ing,' while Compton Burnett likes to title books as "Something AND Somerelatedthing."
Brian wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "..I have a school stories shelf if you're interested btw!"Thanks, it is an interesting compilation, that doesn't contain a single book I have read. The Henry Green is attractive a..."
If you haven't read it then Magda Szabo's Abigail was one I've enjoyed recently, and from looking at what you've been reading I think you might like it.
Alwynne wrote: "Magda Szabo's Abigail was one I've enjoyed recently, and from looking at what you've been reading I think you might like it..."Since during the past few years I've read Hungarian classics The Transylvanian Trilogy by Miklós Bánffy, Journey by Moonlight by Antal Szerb and Skylark by Dezső Kosztolányi I've wanted to try a Szabo novel. I considered The Door, but Abigail does look more attractive and higher rated. The NYRB edition is now in my Amazon cart.
Thanks for the reminder on Szabo, Alwynne.
Ang wrote: "Oh another based in a school and up there with my favourite books: Old School"Thank, Ang. Finally one is mentioned that I have actually read already!
Looking through my Kindle highlights, I noticed that in a couple places, Tambu wonders how someone who has everything can suffer. Though Tambu is a child, many adults think like this the world over. It's something I find disturbing- I don't like the attempt to compare levels of suffering, or to purport that someone of high privilege isn't allowed to suffer (or worse - is making it up).
I see what you mean about unthinking comparisons but I think lack of material resources and social inequality does have a huge impact on the quality of people's existence. Look at the countries which can't afford vaccines, people living through famine, people who have no access to healthcare, people including in the UK living on the poverty line, a great number of children. I'm currently dealing with health issues my experience of that via the NHS in a pandemic is frustrating, stressful and quantifiably worse than a friend who has similar issues and private health insurance. A friend's mother's treatment in a low-budget care home is far worse than another's whose family are able to afford in-home, round the clock care. These things do make a difference. Bereavement when it's a loved one is always terrible but surely harder if funeral costs also leave you impoverished.
I'm not talking about direct comparisons of the same situation. I mean people declaring that someone can't really be suffering, or not experiencing racism because they're privileged. That kind of thing.
Mod
I thought that Tambu thinking like that was a response to the colonialist situation which she has internalised so deeply - she has subscribed unquestioningly to the narrative that tells her that a British education, a role within a Christian religious institution, and other associated values are 'everything'.
In other words, I thought this a clever way to demonstrate the power of the colonists' narrative, and to interrogate it at the same time.
This is also a good example of where I don't find Tambu easily likeable - though I should say that that's not the same as disliking her. I can understand why she is formed the way she is, which is one of the main takeaways from the book, for me.
Ang wrote: "I'm not talking about direct comparisons of the same situation. I mean people declaring that someone can't really be suffering, or not experiencing racism because they're privileged. That kind of t..."Okay, I can't directly compare my experience of racism to other people's. But I imagine that my relative privilege has protected me from some of the excessive violence/disrespect others have experienced, even on the few occasions when I've been stopped and searched the police officers were always fairly polite, once I started speaking!
Reading the 20th Century
Books mentioned in this topic
This Mournable Body (other topics)African Laughter: Four Visits to Zimbabwe (other topics)
This Mournable Body (other topics)
Old School (other topics)
The Door (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Miklós Bánffy (other topics)Antal Szerb (other topics)
Dezső Kosztolányi (other topics)
Audre Lorde (other topics)
Agatha Christie (other topics)
More...
I'll have to wait until I've read a few more books that I currently have on the go, though.