DUNE by Frank Herbert

[Don]

This is one that I've always had on my "to-read" list but never got around to it. Classic science fiction and recognized as one of the best of the genre.

[Jim]

I've read it many times & loved it. I never cared much for the following books, though.

[Don]

It's been on my list forever but I don't read a lot of science fiction. I tend to only read the classic sci fi books that are regarded as some of the best.

[[deleted user]]

I believe I started Dune a hundred years ago or so. :) Didn't get very far, wasn't my cuppa. But I don't usually enjoy fantasy, and if I read science fiction, it's more "reality based" sci-fi.

Have y'all read any of Walter M. Miller Jr.? I've only read A canticle for Leibowitz and thoroughly enjoyed it. I have two more of his in the TBR stack.

[Jim]

I've tried reading "A Canticle for Lebowitz" several times. Never got more than halfway through. I just never cared about anything in the book. I know lots of others who loved it though. It's also considered a classic.

[Werner]

I've read, and really liked, Dune, though I've never been motivated to go on to read any of Frank Herbert's sequels. But I'd rate A Canticle for Leibowitz as my favorite SF novel of any I've read (I'm probably more fascinated by post-apocalyptic scenarios than Jim is :-)). Miller wrote some short fiction as well, but the only one of his stories I've read so far is "Crucifixus Etiam," which is in The Oxford Book of Science Fiction Stories --that's an outstanding collection, IMO, and this story is a worthy inclusion there!

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Don, I've never read Dune. Thanks for making it a special topic here.
by Frank Herbert

Below is from the GF description:
"Dune is one of the most famous science fiction novels ever written, and deservedly so. The setting is elaborate and ornate, the plot labyrinthine, the adventures exciting. Five sequels follow."

One of these days I really have to start exploring the SF genre. So far, I've dipped only my big toe into the ocean of SF (as some of our members well know.) It's a big ocean.

I'm not sure I could handle a "labyrinthine" plot. At our library book group yesterday, we talked about how some of us don't have good enough memories to handle multiple and complicated story threads.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

PS-There is a short video of Frank Herbert talking about _Dune_ at:
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/...
(Scroll down at the above webpage.)

The GR description, as those who have read the book know, says:
"The Dune saga, set in the distant future and taking place over millennia, dealt with themes such as human survival and evolution, ecology, and the intersection of religion, politics, and power..."

Jackie mentioned it in the following topic:
"Memorable Characters in Books" at:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
Messages #13 and #15.

[[deleted user]]

.....in The Oxford Book of Science Fiction Stories --that's an outstanding collection, IMO, and this story is a worthy inclusion there!

Thanks for the heads up, I'll investigate. :)

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Werner wrote: " ... The Oxford Book of Science Fiction Stories --that's an outstanding collection, IMO"

Werner, is the short story by Isaac Asimov, entitled "Profession", in _The Oxford Book of Science Fiction Stories_? There's a copy of the story online at:
http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php

Our son told me about the story and I searched it out a while ago via a Goodreads SF group.

PS-The GR description of the Oxford Book doesn't include the Asimov story in the list of contents. In fact I didn't see any story by Asimov there.

Anyway, the Oxford book seems like a good way for me to explore the SF genre.

[Arnie]

Sci-fi-wise, I've always revered Ray Bradbury.
The reason is, contrary to many writers in the genre, he writes as much with his heart as his mind.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Arnie wrote: " Sci-fi-wise, I've always revered Ray Bradbury. The reason is, contrary to many writers in the genre, he writes as much with his heart as his mind."

What Bradbury book would you recommend for someone like myself who is just learning about the SF genre? (I'd like to start with something simple.) (g)

Below is a link to Ray Bradbury's GR page:
Ray Bradbury

[Arnie]

Novel---"The Martian Chronicles"--- I believe a masterpiece, and for short stories,
"The Illustrated Man"

[Werner]

No, Joy, Asimov isn't represented in The Oxford Book of Science Fiction Stories. But they do include a constellation of other genre luminaries, nearly all of them represented by excellent stories, chronologically arranged from H. G. Wells' "The Land Ironclads" on down into the 1980s. And yes, this collection would be a wonderful starting point for exploring the SF genre. (As I sometimes say in commenting on book selection here at the library, Oxford Univ. Press doesn't print any shoddy books!)

[Jim]

I never really thought of Bradbury as an SF writer. More fantasy. Good stuff, but he's not big on science. More into people & the horror they can bring on themselves, at least that's the way I read "The Martian Chronicles" & most of his writing.

[Arnie]

I guess that's why I like him---I'm no Carl Sagan myself, science-wise.
Like I implied , i find too much sci-fi overly cerebral, emotionally detaching.
I remember one Isamov short story that stayed with me a long time---"Nightfall".
Both he and Bradbury, and others, were true prophets---they saw nearly 70 years ago the world we're living in today.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Arnie wrote: " Novel---"The Martian Chronicles"--- I believe a masterpiece, and for short stories, "The Illustrated Man" "

Thanks, Arnie. I've put _The Martian Chronicles_ and _The Illustrated Man_ on my To-Read shelf. I appreciate the recommendations.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Werner wrote: "No, Joy, Asimov isn't represented in The Oxford Book of Science Fiction Stories. But they do include a constellation of other genre luminaries, nearly all of them represented by excellent stories,..."

Thanks, Werner. I've added _The Oxford Book of Science Fiction Stories_ to my To-Read list, which is impossibly long. But, as they say, our reach should exceed our grasp.

“Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?” -Robert Browning

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jim wrote: "I never really thought of Bradbury as an SF writer. More fantasy. Good stuff, but he's not big on science. More into people & the horror they can bring on themselves, at least that's the way I r..."

Thanks, Jim. I've now included "fantasy" (as well as sci-fi) as one of the shelves/categories for the Ray Bradbury books on my To-Read shelf. I suppose he can still be considered a bit sci-fi. No?

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Arnie wrote: " I guess that's why I like him--- ... I remember one Isamov short story that stayed with me a long time---"Nightfall". ..."

Thanks, Arnie. I found "Nightfall" online and look forward to reading it. It's at: ====>
http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/fwalter/H...

Also, it seems that the short story has been expanded into a novel.
See the following link to the Goodreads page:
Nightfall

[Arnie]

Thanks Joy---I didn't know that!!
Interesting that Arthur Clarke's 2001, started out, unless I'm mistaken, with a very short story called "The Sentinel"---ditto with "Flowers for Algernon" by Daniel Keyes (who taught at one of my alma maters, Brooklyn College).
has anyone seen the film, "The Mist" (2007) being shown on Showtime channels?---it's directed by Frank Darabont of "The Shawshank Redemption"---based on another Stephen King novella--this is an instant horror classic---it'll scare the peanuts out of your goobers---and also has something to say.

[Werner]

Joy, re your question as to whether Bradbury can be considered a science-fiction writer, it depends a lot on your definition of the genre. (I tend to define it broadly.) Some of his writing has a supernatural premise, and so would be outside the genre by most any definition. But much of his work has a purely natural premise --it just isn't based on carefully accurate extrapolation from known science, as writings in the tradition known as "hard" SF (exemplified by Jules Verne) are. For instance, in The Martian Chronicles, his Martian environment is nothing like we know the real Mars to be, and his Martians possess psi powers, something that actual science has yet to verify as possible. But they don't possess magic, and neither do the human Mars colonists. His SF represents the genre's "soft" strand (exemplified by H. G. Wells), where the writers feel justified in inventing any (naturalistic) premise they want, vaguely asserting that it's (somehow) explainable by "science," and then using that "what if?" premise to do what they want to accomplish in the story. Fans of the "hard" tradition, confronting this, often naturally feel that it's a different type of literature altogether.

[Jim]

I think Werner gave the best explanation you'll get, Joy. Personally, I don't get hung up on genres much. Heck, I have trouble sorting fiction from nonfiction. I do try to do that & I put all religion/mythology/philosophy books in between the two since I can't sort one of them from another, either.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Arnie wrote: "... has anyone seen the film, "The Mist" (2007) being shown on Showtime channels? ..."

Below is a link to Netflix's description of "The Mist". I haven't seen it. Horror movies are not my favorite genre.
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/The_Mist...

BTW, my alma mater is Hunter College in NYC. (Hunter '55) It was practically a free education in those days.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Werner wrote: "Joy, re your question as to whether Bradbury can be considered a science-fiction writer, it depends a lot on your definition of the genre. (I tend to define it broadly.) Some of his writing has a..."

Werner, I didn't realize there was a strict definition of Science Fiction. The category as used in my book shelves is a broad one because I don't know enough about SF to be fussy about it. :)

At Wiki, it says:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Ray Douglas Bradbury is an American mainstream, fantasy, horror, science fiction, and mystery writer. ... Bradbury is widely considered one of the greatest and most popular American writers of speculative fiction of the twentieth century."
------------------
"Speculative fiction is a fiction genre speculating about worlds that are unlike the real world in various important ways. In these contexts, it generally overlaps one or more of the following: science fiction, fantasy fiction, horror fiction, supernatural fiction, superhero fiction, utopian and dystopian fiction, apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction, and alternate history."
FROM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_brad...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculat...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, now I've learned the names of some other genres, including "speculative fiction". :) Maybe I should stick to categorizing books into only two different categories: fiction and non-fiction. But that's no fun. :)

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jim wrote: "I think Werner gave the best explanation you'll get, Joy. Personally, I don't get hung up on genres much. Heck, I have trouble sorting fiction from nonfiction. I do try to do that & I put all re..."

Actually, it's fun to think about the different genres. It helps to clarify the different types of books and writing, especially when we're discussing specific books.

[Werner]

Yes, the genre classifications are just conceptual groupings of books by common subject matter, which people use to help in comparing books and writers, and to identify kinds of reading that they like. But there's no Grand Poobah of Literature on a throne somewhere to authoritatively "define" the genres (or even to say how many there are), and professional critics don't always agree; so each reader does that for him/herself, and sometimes things get fuzzy around the edges. :-) But I'd say that there's probably a lot of general agreement on the basic categories and their rough definitions.

[Jim]

Joy, they do give some common ground, but so many people get hung up on genres that I've found them more of a nuisance than a help over the years, probably because I'm opinionated & have run into more than a few other prejudiced book snobs that disagreed with me based on genre. Also, as Werner mentioned, many books cross genre lines.

Take Stasheff's The Warlock in Spite of Himself. A man arrives on a planet in a spaceship, uses a robot for transportation & figures out that there is a native life form that responds to those humans that have psi talent. Sounds like SF, but I could also describe the book as a Sword & Sorcery adventure, set in a medieval, feudalistic society with witches flying on brooms, elves & magic. Our hero charges about on a magic horse. Both are true descriptions.

My grandfather refused to read SF, but I handed him a 'classic fiction' book & he read it. The book was Slaughterhouse-Five. He liked it. When I later told him it was usually classified as SF, he disagreed, of course.

Labels even on fact & fiction can get in the way. My world history teacher sneered at historical fiction, but I found that reading Harold Lamb's stories about a time gave me a huge boost over other students. I had an interest & references to make sense of the dreadfully boring history text. I got an idea of the important events & how they flowed. I was out of school by the time I had access to John Jakes Bicentennial Series, but I learned more about U.S. history from that than I did Zinn's work. I'll use the latter for reference, but Jake's for perspective.

When I say that something is in a genre, I'll generally hedge with 'kind of' or add other genres. I certainly won't physically shelve by genre. Too restrictive & what I think of as fantasy today I might think of as SF or horror tomorrow. Depends on how I'm thinking.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Interesting comments, Werner and Jim!
They certainly give me a lot to think about.
I went to Wiki's SF page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_...
and recognized much info there that you've already spoken about so well here. If it weren't for this Goodreads discussion group, I would never have delved into this information. No in-person book group could ever provide the kind of satisfaction I get from this online book group and other GR features.

I also checked out the Wiki page on Harold Lamb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Lamb
It lists separately his fiction and non-fiction writings. Which one of his fiction books would be the easiest read? I assume that all his fiction writings are historical fiction. I've never read any of them.

[Jim]

I think the first one of Lamb's books I read was Omar Khayyam & it's always been my favorite. I have several versions of Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam of Naishapur. One of the few poetry books I really enjoy.

I really like Tamerlane the Earth Shaker, too. I've read a half dozen others, but those two were the best done, IMO. I think you'd like the first best, though, Joy.

[[deleted user]]

Joy H. (of Glens Falls) wrote: "Arnie wrote: "... has anyone seen the film, "The Mist" (2007) being shown on Showtime channels? ..."

Below is a link to Netflix's description of "The Mist". I haven't seen it. Horror movies are no..."

I read the Stephen King short story, or novella it was based on, and it was, as far as I am concerned, the best I've read of King. Although I can't say I'm a real reader of King....only a few of his books.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jim wrote: "I think the first one of Lamb's books I read was Omar Khayyam & it's always been my favorite. I have several versions of Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam of Naishapur. One o..."

Thanks, Jim. I've put the Omar Khayyam book on my To-Read shelf. Soon I'll have more books on my To-Read shelf than I do on my Read Shelf. :)

[Jim]

My TBR pile is double stacked & overflowing, too. I really wanted to find some quiet time to read this weekend, but it just hasn't happened yet. Maybe today. I desperately want to finish Janny's book, To Ride Hell's Chasm, but with company this weekend, it hasn't happened.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

There are so many activities which compete with reading, especially now that we have the Internet. On the other hand, the Internet has stimulated me to read more. So one hand washes the other.

[Arnie]

Non sequitur---Did Emily and Charlotte , while writing, use a Bronte-saurus??

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Arnie wrote: " Non sequitur---Did Emily and Charlotte , while writing, use a Bronte-saurus??"

(Grin) (Groan) :)

Hmmm, I wonder if there was such a thing as a Thesaurus in those days.

Wiki: "The Brontë sisters, Charlotte (1816–1855), Emily (1818-1848) and Anne (1820-1849), were English writers of the 1840s and 1850s."

Hmmm, they all died young.

Wiki: "The first example of the modern genre, Roget's Thesaurus, was compiled in 1805 by Peter Mark Roget, and published in 1852."

I doubt if the Bronte sisters ever had a chance to use the Thesaurus.

[Arnie]

While by no means taking umbrage at your well-deserved reaction, Oscar Levant said the reason people groan at puns is because they didn't think of it first--discuss!

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Arnie wrote: " While by no means taking umbrage at your well-deserved reaction, Oscar Levant said the reason people groan at puns is because they didn't think of it first--discuss!"

"The bigger the groan, the better the pun." -Anonymous

Don't know how true that is, but your pun was a good play on words. Did you make it up?

PS-They say that there is a gene for pun-makers. I believe it. Certain people have a knack for making them up. I knew a man who seemed to be a compulsive pun-maker.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Speaking of plays on words, it looks like Don's "Dune" is done. LOL

[Arnie]

Yes, I'm a punster from way back and have had a few published in Readers Digest---the supreme accolade.
I recall Dick Cavett, another punster, said a shrink told him that an obsession with puns was a 'Prelude to Schizophrenia,' which, if I'm not mistaken, DeBussy composed.

[Arnie]

Peter DeVries wrote a hilarious short story about just that: a man pun-obsessed.
It was either called "Obsession or "Compulsion"

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Arnie wrote: " Peter DeVries wrote a hilarious short story about just that: a man pun-obsessed. It was either called "Obsession or "Compulsion""

Wiki has a good page about puns and punning. It says:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Punning has been used by writers such as Alexander Pope, James Joyce, Vladimir Nabokov, William Shakespeare (who is estimated to have used over 3,000 puns in his plays), John Donne, and Lewis Carroll."
FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pun
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the puns listed at wiki is:
"Hanging is too good for a man who makes puns; he should be drawn and quoted."
-Fred Allen

I also found this one:
"The beauty of a pun is in the oy of the beholder." :)
-Found at: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/art...

[Werner]

Piers Anthony really goes in for puns in his Xanth series. For instance, in Xanth, breadfruit trees grow loaves of bread, and shoe trees are trees that grow --what else?-- shoes; Night Mares are magical female horses who deliver bad dreams to sleepers (and have names like Mare Imbrium). Some of the books even have punning titles, like Between a Roc and a Hard Place, or Crewel Lye: A Caustic Yarn. :-)

[Jim]

I always like Boys'n girl berries. Grundy the golem was fun, but Chameleon was possibly my favorite character, besides Bink. Chameleon's appearance changed based on the time of the month. She got uglier & meaner until she'd tear your head off. Then she started getting prettier, nicer & sexier until she'd tear your heart out.

Reminds me of someone... Hmmm...

[Nina]

Arnie wrote: " Yes, I'm a punster from way back and have had a few published in Readers Digest---the supreme accolade.
I recall Dick Cavett, another punster, said a shrink told him that an obsession with puns..."I love the Fred Allen quote about puns. nina

[Nina]

I finished "The Lightening Thief," and was impressed with the theme and the writing. Keeps you on edge and turning pages. Also, the fact that the author wove Greek mythololgy seamlessly into the action and such characterization was amazing. My writing critique teacher always emphazised that you should ground your fantasy story in real life situations before introducing the science fiction or fantasy parts. This author was wonderful as he accomplished this and I think taught some lessons on Greek mythology without the kids who read this even knowing it. nina ps My children's librarian daughter says when she gets this book it flies off the shelf and she must reorder, reorder reorder.. nina

[Joy H., Group Founder]

My FIL used to tease our young boys with puns at the dinner table. Cauliflower was flowers that collies play in. Wish I could remember the others. He was such fun.

[Jackie]

I can't believe I missed this topic! I've just been responding to message I've been a part of through my email notifications.

Pontalba, have you ever read Stephen Baxter? I don't particularly care for him, a bit to long winded for my taste but excellent sound science in his books.

Arnie, I saw The Mist, it was OK. At least it had an ending. The short story didn't and I hated that.

Joy, I don't see you liking the original Dune, just my opinion. Dune isn't for everyone, and if you're not a SF fan, I don't think it'll appeal. I've read the original novel so many times I've lost count, and I get more out of it each time. Same with the subsequent 5 of the original series, though I haven't them as many times as the original.

Dune was turned down by publishing house over a dozen times before it finally got published. It was considered 'too epic' in a time when most SF was published in magazines in parts. Frank Herbert's Dune changed the face of sci-fi forever. Now we have all sorts of epic stories in both scifi and fantasy, trilogies are standard for fantasy now.

For those who haven't read the Dune series, be warned that Frank Herbert died before he could complete the series. I was left hanging at the end of #6, Chapterhouse: Dune and I was not a happy camper. However, those books eventually got written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson from Frank's own notes and plans for the series and was finally concluded recently, 20 years later. And a most satisfying end it was.

I'm reading The Winds of Dune right now, the latest in a long line of Dune novels.
I love Brian and Kevin's additions to the Duniverse, though there are mixed feelings from the Dune fans. Personally, I like the way they are written. They have an easier style than Frank and I find them easy to follow.

The complete list of Dune novels is as follows:

The Original Series
Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse Dune

Brian and Kevin's additions:
Prequels:
House Atreides
House Harkonnen
House Corrino

Dune The Butlerian Jihad
The Machine Crusade
The Battle of Corrin

The Finale:
Hunters of Dune
Sandworms Of Dune

Set in between the original novels:
Paul of Dune
The Winds of Dune
The Throne of Dune (forthcoming)
Leto of Dune (working title, forthcoming)

Non fiction, by Frank, Brian and Kevin:
The Road to Dune

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "I can't believe I missed this topic! I've just been responding to message I've been a part of through my email notifications.
... Joy, I don't see you liking the original Dune, just my opinion. Dune isn't for everyone, and if you're not a SF fan, I don't think it'll appeal. I've read the original novel so many times I've lost count, and I get more out of it each time. Same with the subsequent 5 of the original series, though I haven't them as many times as the original. ..."

Jackie, thanks for all the info about the Dune novels. I'm in a slump right now, struggling to finish a few books I've started. So I hesitate to begin reading anything which might be too much of a challenge. I've already bailed out of several books after partially reading them. These days, if they're not compelling, I don't want to spend too much time on them. There are certain books I read just to see what all the hoopla is about. When they aren't compelling enough (for one reason or another), I read only a bit at a time, forcing myself to keep interested.

[Jackie]

You can try it, I may be mistaken, but 'epic' is the correct term for it. It's full of philosophical wisdom, or at least, I think so. It's deep and makes you think, analyze.