DUNE by Frank Herbert

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "You can try it, I may be mistaken, but 'epic' is the correct term for it. It's full of philosophical wisdom, or at least, I think so. It's deep and makes you think, analyze."

Jackie, I usually enjoy reading "philosophical wisdom". I'm always "pondering" one thing or another. :)

As for the word "epic", which meaning of "epic" would you choose from the web page below to describe your use of the word:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=epic&ls=a

[Jackie]

Too many links to check, I don't have the time to go through them all, I'm sorry.
I would say, defined by me, would mean: all encompassing. There is just so much to Dune: politics, sociology, economics, religion, ecology, power structures, corruption, plus lots more, and many people to populate a universe where these themes are played out.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "... I would say, defined by me, would mean: all encompassing. There is just so much to Dune: politics, sociology, economics, religion, ecology, power structures, corruption, plus lots more, and many people to populate a universe where these themes are played out."

From that list of dictionary links (referred to in my message #51) to the meaning of the word "epic", I chose the first link:
http://vocabulary-vocabulary.com/dict...

It gives a good explanation along with the various definitions. The word can mean so many things that it's hard to pin down.

[Jackie]

That description works for me.

[Werner]

Jackie, I've actually never been motivated to read any of Herbert's own sequels to Dune (though we have a few in the library here); but I have the Herbert/Anderson House Atreides prequel in one of my piles of unread books (I saw it at our local flea market a few years ago, and was intrigued by the cover :-)). Based on your familiarity with the series, would you say a person would have to read all of the preceding books to appreciate that particular prequel?

[Jackie]

No, not at all, but you'll probably want the next two in that particular prequel trilogy. It tells the story of the feud between House Atreides and House Harkonnen, going back to Paul's grandfather, Duke Leto's father. Duncan Idaho is a child in this, Paul not even born. There's a lot of good stuff in there, but it's still background so as long as you read the first Dune, that would be good enough.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "No, not at all, but you'll probably want the next two in that particular prequel trilogy. It tells the story of the feud between House Atreides and House Harkonnen, going back to Paul's grandfathe..."

Jackie, how do you remember all those details? You must have a prodigious memory! A few weeks after I read most books, I have only a vague memory of the details.

[Werner]

Thanks, Jackie; that tells me what I needed to know! In that case, I'll give House Atreides a read (sometime, as I wade through the piled books :-)). I'm often not really interested in reading voluminous tons of sequels to books I like, if I felt the first one had a complete story arc in itself and gave me the fully representative taste of the author's world and vision; so often sequels don't really add anything except a lot of money for the author and publisher, and there's so many new worlds and visions out there to experience, and so little reading time to do it in. That's why I never read any of the sequels to Dune (or to Eric Flint's 1632, another example that comes to mind). But prequels are a different thing --they sometimes whet my interest more, I guess due to my historical bent. (I'm always asking, "how did we get into this situation? What went on before?")

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Werner wrote: "Thanks, Jackie; that tells me what I needed to know! ... I guess due to my historical bent. (I'm always asking, "how did we get into this situation? What went on before?")"

Werner, those questions seek to give us a sense of orientation. I usually need to be oriented before I can understand things. It's as though I need to see the "big picture" first. That's why I prefer the types of literature and films which contain exposition (e.g., explanations about the setting and time of the story, etc.). Ambiguity frustrates me.

Of course, in some situations, the big picture is so complex, that we must start out with the small parts and build until we see how they fit into the larger picture. I would say that particular method is needed when learning to understand computers and computer applications. It's like taking baby steps.

I know this doesn't exactly relate to the discussion of prequels and sequels. Instead it's more of a tangent I wanted to mention. (Thanks for bearing with me.) (g)

P.S. Another example would be a Time Line showing history as a bird's eye view. My first introduction to Time Lines in H.S., were like a window of understanding opening up for me. The Time Lines made me immediately take an interest in history because they oriented me.

[Werner]

Joy, that comment about the time lines makes sense to me. As a small child, my first-grade classroom had a "number line," a long strip of paper hung just below the moldboard of the ceiling, which showed the progression of the numbers from 0 on up to, I guess, 100 (or maybe 1,000). Taking off from that, I related it to history, and have always mentally visualized my own "time lines," stretching both ways from 0 (for B.C. and A.D.) and placed historical events on those. :-)

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Werner wrote: "Joy, that comment about the time lines makes sense to me. As a small child, my first-grade classroom had a "number line," a long strip of paper hung just below the moldboard of the ceiling, which ..."

Funny how some simple "keys" can open all kinds of doors.

[Jackie]

Joy, I have no idea how I remember some thngs and forget others. I had more to say about te prequel but then I'd be rewriting it, and figured I'd quit while I has ahead, LOL

Werner, In Dune, there were so many references to things from the past that I wanted to know more about. How many times was the Butlerian Jihad mentioned? A lot! I wanted to know about it. And the Atreides-Harkonnen feud, I just had to know why there was such animosity. Although, it's older roots go back to the Butlerian Jihad, if the truth be told. That's my next re-read, I've forgotten so much of it.

I enjoyed the House prequels because it sets the immediate stage for the events of Dune, whereas the Butlerian Jihad was thousands of years before Dune.

I don't feel that you could just read House Atreides without wanting to read the rest, but that's just my opinion. I don't think you'll be disappointed whenever you get around to it.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "Joy, I have no idea how I remember some thngs and forget others. ..."

I guess "memory" (and how it works) will always be a mystery. Several months ago I listened to an audio version of _The Woman Who Can't Forget The Extraordinary Story of Living with the Most Remarkable Memory Known to Science--A Memoir_.

The idea is incredible, but the book was a bit boring since much of it consisted of the woman telling her memories. I'd rather learn about "memory" itself and how it works.

Ooops, there I go again... going off topic.

[Jackie]

I had once read a scientific article about how scifi and memory-wipes wouldn't work in the real world. Memory is tied to all the senses at different times, and stored in various areas of the brain for that reason. Pretty interesting article.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "I had once read a scientific article about how scifi and memory-wipes wouldn't work in the real world. Memory is tied to all the senses at different times, and stored in various areas of the brain..."

I once read an explanation of what happens when we dream. Here's how I understood it. While we're sleeping our mind somehow involuntarily fires off pieces of memory (including emotional memory) and, since the mind is always busy trying to make sense of things, it connects all these bits and pieces of memory and tries to make a logical story out of them. That story is the dream.

If we have fears, those fears may end up as part of the story in a dream. If we have desires, those desires might end up as part of the story in a dream.

I could be wrong, but even so, it's an interesting explanation. (g)

[Jackie]

I've also read that if we didn't dream we'd go insane, dreaming is a coping mechanism, working things out while we sleep, tied to emotional well-being.
I have to agree with fears, because I dream frequently of Juneau getting lost, and other awful things. Just last night I dreamt I had three Juneaus, all identical, and while walking them, the leather leash broke on two of them, but they didn't take off, and I was able to loop the leash through the collar. Not a bad dream, especially compared to others I've had. It still kept me from falling back to sleep.
I'm disturbed by my Juneau dreams, but it is a definite fear. Probably better working itself out in my subconscious rather than exhibiting paranoia or so other odd behavior in my waking life.

[Werner]

Jackie, if I like House Atreides, I might well go on to read the rest of the trilogy eventually. And I'll keep my eyes open for the Butlerian Jihad prequels, too --like you, my curiosity about that was whetted a good deal by reading Dune! Right now, though, I'm trying (usually :-)) not to add any more books to my to-read shelf --at least until I succeed in moving a few dozen of them to the "read" shelf. :-)

[Jackie]

I'm in the same spot as you, I have so many books. There's so many good books I learn about here, that I want to read, but just can't get to them until I make room on my shelves.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "I've also read that if we didn't dream we'd go insane, dreaming is a coping mechanism, working things out while we sleep, tied to emotional well-being.
I have to agree with fears, because I drea..."

Jackie, our dogs mean so much to us. Most dog owners probably worry about losing their precious pets. Our worries definitely show up in our dreams.

One time I dreamed that I could levitate. It was fun being able to float in the air. I googled and found that it's a fairly common type of dream.

Below are some links to info about dreams:

Top 10 Common Dreams And Their Meanings:
http://listverse.com/2008/10/07/top-1...

Interpreting Your Dreams:
http://health.discovery.com/centers/s...

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Werner wrote: "... Right now, though, I'm trying (usually :-)) not to add any more books to my to-read shelf --at least until I succeed in moving a few dozen of them to the "read" shelf. :-)"

Werner, I felt that way for a while, but then I noticed that some GR members have OODLES of books on their To-Read Shelves. So now I keep adding to mine. Knowing that there are so many books to be read, spurs me on to keep up my reading pace (which is woefully slow). It also helps me to bail out of a book if I'm not getting any satisfaction from it. Otherwise, I would suffer through it till the end, as if it's some kind of medicine for my educational benefit. At my age I've GOT TO stop trying to educate myself so that I can enjoy myself instead. LOL After all, shouldn't learning be a pleasure?

[Jackie]

This is why there better be a big Library in the Sky after we die. I can't possibly read every book I want to read in this lifetime.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "This is why there better be a big Library in the Sky after we die. I can't possibly read every book I want to read in this lifetime."

Jackie, you really ARE a dreamer! LOL

[Jim]

I agree with Jackie. Heaven, without books, would be Hell.

You can quote me on that.
;-)

[Werner]

Joy, on that subject, I dream the same way as Jackie. If there isn't a library in heaven, I told her the two of us would get up a petition to start one. :-)

Your philosophy on the to-read shelf makes sense, too. I guess for me, having too big a to-read shelf (besides my big "owned-not-read" shelf, and my recommended by friends shelf) might be too daunting. Seeing the row after row of shelves of books at the library every day gives me enough motivation to keep up my reading pace. :-) But I agree 100% about not suffering through a book if I'm not enjoying it! Turning something as pleasurable as reading into a chore really ought to be a felony. :-)

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Werner wrote: "... Turning something as pleasurable as reading into a chore really ought to be a felony. :-)"

AMEN! :)

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jim wrote: "I agree with Jackie. Heaven, without books, would be Hell. You can quote me on that.;-)"

LOL - However, Jim, you've got to admit... there are SOME books which are Hell on Earth! LOL
And you can quote me on that too! ;-)

[Jackie]

That's the truth, Joy!

I often wonder how certain books get published, they're such garbage. And what's worse is, when people love them!?!

So Jim, you gonna meet up with me and Werner in Heaven? Whoever gets there first, save some seats, LOL

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Jackie wrote: "That's the truth, Joy! I often wonder how certain books get published, they're such garbage. And what's worse is, when people love them!?! ..."

Jackie, not only that, how do certain books and authors win PRIZES!?!

[Jackie]

I know, it's like the worst wins! Not always, but too many times for my liking.

[Jordan]

I have read the first 4 of the series and plan to read the rest of the series because I need to know how this thing ends. I like Dune, I am not a lover. God Emperor of Dune was recommended to my by a friend who cited it as the best book ever written. I did not agree. Dune is a great book, it truly is. I also enjoyed Dune Messiah.

Here is the thing about Dune series and Herbert. It is so serious! Very taxing on your emotions and intellect. He is a very intelligent man and refuses to write any characters who will not make you question your own personal belief system. This is fine, but makes for a very draining read. (in a good way). He is much like Ayn Rand in the way he makes you dissect each and every sentence, there is no "filler" in his books.

[Jackie]

That's very true, Jordan.
I didn't care for God Emperor the first time around, but I enjoyed it better the next time. A good twenty years had passed between the readings so I have to say that I've changed, not the book, allowing me to understand Leto.
The good news is the prequels and the two novels that complete the Dune series were written by Herbert's son. So it's a different style, more accessible, understood easier. Still intelligent and serious but not so heavy, if that makes any sense.

[Jordan]

Makes perfect sense.

[Jackie]

Cool. I'm a big Dune fan, I'd be interested in your thoughts whenever you read the rest of the series.

[Jordan]

I will try and finish Hunters and Chapter house in the coming months. I will for sure post my feelings. I think I will enjoy them since I find the Bene Gesserit chapterhouse to be fascinating.

[Jackie]

All the sociological niches in Dune are fantastic, but the Bene Gesserit are by far the most interesting.
Dune doesn't end with Chapterhouse, there's two more, Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune which were completed by Brian Herbert. IMO, it was a perfect end to a perfect series.
I'm a bit jealous, you're living in the Duniverse for the first time, what wonders await you! That's why I'm interested in seeing it through your eyes someday. Enjoy!

[Mary JL]

Joy: I personally found DUNE great. Like Jackie, I've re-read it and find it wellworth its classic status.

I am going to thread drift here and suggested that one way you might explore sf is get the "Years Best" Anthology when it comes out. Or get last years. By reading several authors' style, you can sample different SF writers, and then follow up on the ones you liked best.

[Joy H., Group Founder]

Mary JL wrote: "... one way you might explore sf is get the "Years Best" Anthology when it comes out. Or get last years. By reading several authors' style, you can sample different SF writers, and then follow up on the ones you liked best. "

Thanks, Mary. Is there a link to that book?