1984 Part Two

[Traveller]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: ""...hereditary aristocracies have always been shortlived, whereas adoptive organizations such as the Catholic Church have sometimes lasted hundreds or thousands of years."

He hit the nail on the h..."

The Chinese dynasties might have been longer lived if there had not been so much flux in power between those pesky mongols from the north and the more southern parts. Fascinating history there.

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: ".All this marching up and down and cheering and waving flags is simply sex gone sour."

Yes, i mentioned that much earlier on in the section - with regard to Julia being more astute in some respects as to the parties motivations - well, even Orwell the narrator said she was, because she realized that the Party was subverting libidinal energies.

[Derek]

I stopped dead at the little throwaway line in the preparations for Hate Week. "Julia's unit … had been taken off the production of novels and was rushing out a series of atrocity pamphlets." This isn't even doublethink. The Party has no problem with the fact that their propaganda is actually produced by the Fiction Department.

Julia's an example of Karin's depoliticization. "But she only questioned the teachings of the Party when they in some way touched upon her own life. Often she was ready to accept the official mythology simply because the difference between the truth and falsehood did not seem important to her." I think that last part explains why Orwell can see a result from forcing everybody to accept a single media channel that is so like what we have with the Internet. In Julia's case, she can't tell the difference between truth and falsehood because she isn't given enough information. In ours, it becomes hard to tell, because on the Internet everything—true or false—is presented with the same air of authority.

[Derek]

Traveller wrote: "The Chinese dynasties might have been longer lived if there had not been so much flux in power between those pesky mongols from the north and the more southern parts. Fascinating history there."

Of course, and the British royal dynasty, with a little backtracking every now and then, goes back before William the Conqueror (provided that we accept the Tudors weren't just cuckoos in the nest), largely because they haven't had that invasion thing. But the Catholic church survives even that, because when Rome falls the dynasty doesn't go with it.

[Traveller]

I love this bit, and to me it's one strike in favor of Orwell; in the "not a misogynist" stakes. He's not expecting a stereotype. He accepts that everybody, every woman, can have her own kind of beauty. I love how he has always put this proletarian woman in a sort of cheery glow: her singing was always melodious no matter how atrocious the songs she were singing. :)

As he looked at the woman in her characteristic attitude, her thick arms reaching up for the line, her powerful mare-like buttocks protruded, it struck him for the first time that she was beautiful. It had never before occurred to him that the body of a woman of fifty, blown up to monstrous dimensions by childbearing, then hardened, roughened by work till it was coarse in the grain like an over-ripe turnip, could be beautiful.

But it was so, and after all, he thought, why not? The solid, contourless body, like a block of granite, and the rasping red skin, bore the same relation to the body of a girl as the rose-hip to the rose. Why should the fruit be held inferior to the flower?

‘She’s beautiful,’ he murmured.

‘She’s a metre across the hips, easily,’ said Julia.

‘That is her style of beauty,’ said Winston."

[Traveller]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "But the Catholic church survives even that, because when Rome falls the dynasty doesn't go with it. .."

Absolutely....

[Derek]

Yeah, I like that description. And Julia's instant dismissal.

I loved the fact that he has the woman singing drivel... So often, the author actually has to come up with good poetry here, but Orwell lets himself off the hook.

[Derek]

I need a translation: "There was a gas ring in the fender…."

I sort of know what both a gas ring and a fender are, but I can't visualize this.

[Saski]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "...on the Internet everything—true or false—is presented with the same air of authority. "

Excellent point, Derek. That's why I am grateful for sites like Snopes. Of course, I guess that could be taken over too and no one would the wiser...

[Saski]

A gas ring I know and I just assumed from context that a fender was kind of counter for the ring to sit on, but I can't find anything to support that. Instead I get this definition: "a low metal frame around an open fireplace that stops the coal or wood from falling out" which just doesn't make sense here. If they did have an open fireplace, why would they have a gas ring?

[Derek]

Ruth wrote: "Excellent point, Derek. That's why I am grateful for sites like Snopes. Of course, I guess that could be taken over too and no one would the wiser..."

Don't even THINK things like that! It only leads to the worry that maybe it HAS been, and nothing we know is true!

[Cecily]

Traveller wrote: "I must have missed the passages where he describes his mother and Julia as being not clever and not intelligent."

He repeatedly refers to Julian's lack of intelligence, introspection, lack of interest in books etc. She only cares about the Party when it directly affects her. I may see if I can dig out passages, but it's fresh in my memory as a recurring theme.

And I laughed at Ruth's comment #55 about her snoozing through the long extracts from Goldstein's book. Boy was that hard going.

[Derek]

Traveller wrote: "I must have missed the passages where he describes his mother and Julia as being not clever and not intelligent."

"He told Julia the story of his mother’s disappearance.… He did not sup­pose, from what he could re­mem­ber of her, that she had been an un­usual woman, still less an in­tel­li­gent one;"

I can't actually find any direct reference to Julia lacking "intelligence" (which is not to say that there aren't places where it says she's stupid or any other synonym—I certainly remember the lack of introspection/interest), but it's interesting that I find about a dozen places where Winston mentions O'Brien's intelligence, or appearance of it.

[Cecily]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I can't actually find any direct reference to Julia lacking "intelligence" ..."

I think you're right. I just looked at my notes and my Penguin 1981 edition.

My notes for p108 have "not intell", which perhaps means "intellectual", rather than "intelligent" as I can't see a direct mention of either; it's mostly discussing her uncritical acceptance of things.

p128 says people like Julia, "By lack of understanding they remained sane. They simply swallowed everything..." But again, that's not necessarily related to intelligence at all; if anything, it's the intelligent thing to do.