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The Humans
Group Reads Discussions 2020
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"The Humans" by Matt Haig - Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
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It's the 7th! Come chat!
Hello all-To start, this book was a quick read and for the most part, moved along fairly well. I went into this read blind, with some preconceived notions of the subject matter which then lead to some disappointment. The issue I have with aliens discovering humans is it's written, well by a human. It takes a special and vivid imagination to pull it off which this book didn’t do for me. I find that I read this genre to be lead on an adventure, to discover the impossible possibilities possible, and maybe along the way connect to the characters’ characteristics and traits. Perhaps I just wanted a grand Star Trek holo-deck Data episode; waiting for the professor to be beamed back to his home star system.
A few of Matt’s insights did register. The probability of a particular individual’s conception, simple guilty pleasures like peanut butter, and the absurdness of some human rituals made for a laugh. In the end, I felt the main dish was never served after a tasty appetizer.
Jeremiah-
According to my review from some time ago, I enjoyed it more thinking of it as metaphorical or literary or something, not SF. I love Haig, precisely because he recognizes that mental health is an important topic to many, and we still have too much stigma about it to address it in popular fiction proportionately to its prevalence irl.
I had no preconceptions and while I love Star Trek myself - I took this as more of a discovery of human traits and emotions. While the alien was supposed to be a superior being, he went from seeing humans as we see birds or squirrels to seeing the better parts of humans - capacity to love and care for each other. His description of the human and his appalling concern with the nose was very funny. His confusion over having to be clothed likewise.
I found the alien's facination with mathematics to be a bit out there for me - I know music is supposed to be based on math etc but I still enjoy music without the math theorem behind it.
I thought that the society the alien came from didn't seem to have much freedom being always spied on and everyone being the same. Their talk of taking over the planet when they became too numerous, and just killing people outright made me think that they weren't a good society for all their superiority. Anyone else find that? Seemed there was the Host and then everyone else. The author could have done more with that.
Does anyone think that the author is making a comment on our tendancy to do the same with the stewardship we have on this planet and those that depend on it? I don't know if it got me angry because they could so casually snuff out human life or because they thought they were better than us when in fact they were the same.
I can see why someone would be put in a mental health institution if someone behaved like the alien was, but I thought it was pretty much ignored (could have done more with it) - it rang false to me but it may be a cultural thing.
Except for the fact that people just talked about his experience in sly references not head on. Even his family didn't deal with it well. I thought what was more impressive was the kid's reaction to the father's issue. His brush with suicide was moving - I felt his dispair with life.
I really loved the advice at the end of the book to his son. It made me wonder what I would write if I was to give advice. Especially after this year.
I viewed this book as a short, light-hearted, derivative story (I'd forgotten all about the film Dave until Alison referred to it) but none the worse for that (what isn't derivative nowadays?). While not hysterically amusing it did keep me entertained.I particularly liked the interactions with Newton the dog. We're never quite sure how much the alien projects his own feelings onto Newton, like any human would, or how much he perceives more about the animal then we are able to.
On the mathematics side, many years ago I did a few university distance learning maths (English) units, including one on the history of mathematics. I was surprised at how many of the early philosophers were also leading mathematicians. This book reminded me of the idea that mathematics is the basis of everything (after all, according to The Hitchhikers Guide number 42 is the answer to everything).
But what really entertained my childish sense of humour was Andrew's explanation of the sex he had with his student to his wife and his amazement at her reaction (or over reaction I suppose he would interpret it as).
If I have any complaint it would be that the story could have done with being a bit longer. I would have liked a bit more tidying up as to what happened next. Maybe a sequel? Although looking at Haig's books on Amazon he doesn't appear to go in for them.
E.D that was an amusing scene in the book. Not just the explanation but the confusion. Newton was a great interaction also.
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I'd read another Haig keeping in mind the generally light and fluffy nature of this.
I found the book to be very amusing for the first part. It seems like it was all just an excuse to make commentary on some ridiculous or outright wrong things we do as humans. So it was a bittersweet kind of humour for me. I have a whole bunch of quotations saved on my e-reader. But then it kind of lost the steam for me. It became too optimistic and idealistic. I didn't really vibe with the idea of finding beauty in humanity no matter what.
Sandy wrote: "Does anyone think that the author is making a comment on our tendancy to do the same with the stewardship we have on this planet and those that depend on it?"
Yeah, I believe he is. Though I wouldn't call it "stewardship". "Domination" or "reign of terror" would be a more accurate. And that's why I didn't really see the aliens as villains. Because if they're villains, then all humans are villains, as they are even more dismissive about non-human lives for much less important reasons (for example "I want to have a fashionable coat").
Things I liked or didn't like:- I said this on another thread that this immediately reminded me of the film Dave and I was worried it would be too predictable. It was, in a way, but I still found myself enjoying the ride. And did I mention I really liked the film Dave? I actually went back and watched it again last week, great cast and inspiring message, especially now.
- Another film/book I was reminded of was About a Boy where a somewhat oblivious father figure is trying his best to help a young boy and his mother where there are mental health issues involved (and they are British). Not a direct correspondence, but got some of that vibe.
- I know it was necessary for the plot, but I hated the killings in this, it made feel bad and sorry for the families and it genuinely made it harder for me to like the protagonist although I realize his situation.
- On the note of the plot point where the aliens kill a mathematician to slow down advancement I found it chilling to see the IRL headline from a week or so ago that a nuclear scientist was killed in Iran (presumably to slow down their program). Fact meets fiction, etc.
- A lot of this could be construed as sappy -- the bonding with the dog, the life lessons list and all that. And it was. But I lapped it up.
At the end of the day, this novel had me genuinely caring for the characters involved and I didn't want to put it down towards the end. It raised interesting thought points and could get surprisingly deep/dark at time for something that could otherwise be fairly light (peanut butter sandwiches ad nausem, etc). So with all that in mind I gave this 5 stars.
Before I address the larger issues, I have a couple nitpicky questions:-"Leonardo da Vinci was not one of you. He was one of us."
Really? I had the impression the narrator was the first. And wasn't da Vinci a force for advancement, which runs counter to the aliens' goals?
-In a conversation, Isabel says:
"The trouble is, Andrew, you're still two years old."
What exactly is Isabel trying to imply here? Just that he craved attention?
-When the narrator went to Daniel's house:
"He slapped my back. On that first contact, even with clothes between us, I made the reading. Then when I turned, for less than a second, my face wasn't Andrew Martin's. It was mine."
What is this "reading"? My guess is a mapping of his anatomy so he could cause the heart attack, and that the effort of the reading caused a glitch in his face somehow?
Ryan wrote: "Really? I had the impression the narrator was the first. And wasn't da Vinci a force for advancement, which runs counter to the aliens' goals?"I'm not certain about the narrator being first part (I might have missed it). But when it comes to the second part, the aliens weren't completely against the advancement of humanity. They only cared for stopping advancements that happened before humans reached enough maturity to handle a particular type of progress.
Banshee wrote: I'm not certain about the narrator being first part (I might have missed it). But when it comes to the second part, the aliens weren't completely against the advancement of humanity. They only cared for stopping advancements that happened before humans reached enough maturity to handle a particular type of progress.
I guess I had that impression because if he wasn't the first, at some point in his internal monologue he surely would have referenced it. As to your point about the second part, sure, but why would the aliens have been there in the first place? I guess we should assume one was sent there to stamp out some other mathematical advancement.
@Ryan I got the general impression that making sure every element in the novel fit together technically wasn't the author's priority. His focus was on exploring ideas and relationships. Now that I think of it, maybe it was one of the reasons why I really liked it, but didn't reach the level of loving it. There was something missing.
Ryan wrote: "Banshee wrote: I'm not certain about the narrator being first part (I might have missed it). But when it comes to the second part, the aliens weren't completely against the advancement of humanity..."
I think one of the reasons they were there was to ensure that the world was still available when the alien civilization hit a population overflow - wasn't it? That means to me they didn't want us to advance enough to be a threat to that takeover. Maybe I misread it?
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I am a bit behind and have just started.The alien confusion and observations are amusing but could get repetitive so I hope that will develop a little more.
Although so far he has not talked a lot about his home world it seems a little 'controlled' and so for me not quite as wonderful as he seems to think.
You’re right Esther. In the end of the book he realizes the beauty and appeal of chaos over order and pain over perfection.
Yeah I agree that his world seems to be way to controlled!
The part about learning the language in 100 words was completely unrealistic to me, no matter how advanced your innate language ability is, even if computer-aided. There's just not enough context without more time and study.
Ryan wrote: "The part about learning the language in 100 words was completely unrealistic to me, no matter how advanced your innate language ability is, even if computer-aided. There's just not enough context w..."I agree. As I noted in my review, it's easier not to read this as SF, and not to hold it to standards of accuracy, plausibility, good science.... It's a fable, imo.
I might have found this book funnier if I had never seen stand-up comedy. Yes, human beings and the human condition are weird, screwed-up, nonsensical, etc. That's 90% of comedy - laughing at ourselves and at people we recognize in the routines.A big part of what makes us laugh is how unexpected something is. If you've heard a joke before, it's less funny the second time, unless it's been a while or there's a twist. I didn't see much new here. Everyone has different previous experiences, so I'm sure that many readers will laugh in surprise as they read The Humans.
The book felt padded to me. The plot was very simple, I could see what needed to happen next, and yet it didn't happen for a long time. Life on Earth didn't present much in the way of physical challenges because the protagonist's gifts were OP. His emotional growth was painfully maudlin for me to watch. The long list of fortune cookie aphorisms near the end felt especially egregious as padding.
I enjoyed the book, one of my favorite reads this year. The short chapters fit it well and made it very easy in fit into my busy day.My only complaint is the ending. The resolution with the assassin alien and him just burning his hand to kill his link was too simple of a resolution for me. The aliens back home didn't find anything about that scenario suspicious?
Outside of that, I found it a humorous, delightful read.
I think another thing that makes the enjoyment of this personal is how much one feels a resonance. That is to say, it's less about The Human Condition than the books in the university canon are (supposed to be) and more a book for me, for her, for them.... Haig and I both fight the mental illness of depression. And his voice echoes in my soul.
Jessica wrote: My only complaint is the ending. The resolution with the assassin alien and him just burning his hand to kill his link was too simple of a resolution for me. The aliens back home didn't find anything about that scenario suspicious."The ending worked for me, although not much else did. I think the aliens had realized that the proof of the Riemann hypothesis was not going to spread, and it wasn't worth another alien to beat a dead horse (keep in mind we don't know how resource-intensive it is to send an alien, or how much they value individual lives; it could be costly in both of these). I'm sure they suspected if not outright knew what happened, and just decided to let it be.
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I feel like the whole alien aspect of this book was just an excuse to look at humanity and what it means to be human from a different perspective so I'm willing to have some suspension of disbelief there. Reminds me a bit of This Is Water: Some Thoughts, Delivered on a Significant Occasion, about Living a Compassionate Life where the fish have to be made aware that they're even in water. I guess the bits of life advice also reminded me of this type of commencement address. Wear sunscreen! etc.
I often have peanut butter toast for breakfast. It's good!
I have switched to almond butter toast - just as yummy.
Ryan wrote: "I'm sure they suspected if not outright knew what happened, and just decided to let it be."But he made such a big deal about how he was the first of his kind to kill their own kind since forever ago. Seems like his people would find that a big deal, too.
Perhaps his people are just so used to lying and violence not being a thing that they did just accept what they were told with no questions, but that seems unlikely too based on how much they questioned him.
I dunno. It just felt like an overly simple ending to me. Like, the purpose of the book was that the author wanted to have fun exploring humanity from and outside perspective, and everything else was unimportant to him. He didn't care as much about the protagonist's conflict with his own people, so he just gave it a quick easy resolution so he could get back to what he did care about.
At least that's how I read it.
I finished it today. It’s probably about a 3.5 stars read for me (currently rounded up to 4).I also thought the ending was simplistic.
Even though it’s not a long book I also think it’s padded. What’s the point of the last few chapters when he goes and lives in California??
Happily I only laid $2.99 for the kindle book. I’m not so keen to read THE MIDNIGHT LIBRARY (2020 Goodreads Best Fiction winner ) now that I have read THE HUMANS.
My favorite part was the math and the history of math in the book.
Does anyone with knowledge of math have any comments on the premise that advancements in basic math will ultimately (inexorably?) result in extreme technological progress? I don't doubt that to some extent this is true, but are there any known examples of math problems that, if solved, would immediately result in engineering advancements? How about the Riemann hypothesis specifically? This I somehow doubt - particularly if it's only the proof.
Hasn't knowledge of relativity helped with GPS? From Nasa.gov:How does this connect with General Relativity and GPS? As predicted by Einstein’s theory, clocks under the force of gravity run at a slower rate than clocks viewed from a distant region experiencing weaker gravity. This means that clocks on Earth observed from orbiting satellites run at a slower rate. To have the high precision needed for GPS, this effect needs to be taken into account or there will be small differences in time that would add up quickly, calculating inaccurate positions.
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https://mathoverflow.net/questions/17...
Ryan wrote - Does anyone with knowledge of math have any comments on the premise that advancements in basic math will ultimately (inexorably?) result in extreme technological progress?I don't claim any expertise but I do remember that complex numbers (also know as imaginary numbers) were first suggested as a concept in 1572 but no one could think of a practical need for them until the development of computers in the 20th century (don't ask me what that use is).
I’m actually a mathematician (college Professor) and I’m struggling to think of any major technological advance that proving the Riemann Hypothesis would lead to. It would definitely have a major impact on encryption and computer security, but so will quantum computing. The hypothesis is basically believed to be true by most mathematicians but it hasn’t been *proven* to be true. It describes the behavior of the prime numbers, and most commonly used encryption methods rely on knowledge of primes, although I believe Google has started using elliptical curve encryption recently. I think it is true that increases in mathematical knowledge are positively correlated with increased technological proficiency, generally. But I think that’s mostly in the area of applied math (which is math that has direct applications to real world situations or is derived from descriptionskf real world problems).
Interesting comments.Since most already assume the hypothesis is true, why would the proof have any impact on technology?
My understanding is that we have most of the pure mathematical tools necessary to push forward with technology, and that most of the barriers to progress are scientific or engineering in nature. That's why I'm skeptical of the premise (and yes, I'm aware that digging into this premise is to miss the point of the book, but I find it an interesting concept nonetheless).
Perhaps in the fullness of time, pure mathematical advances currently being made may enable technology centuries or millennia in the future, as per E.D.'s comment.
One explanation could just be that there’s some chain reaction this proof sets off, that is maybe the way it’s proven inspires some other thing which eventually leads to the singularity. Since we don’t know what the endpoint is it’s hard to say that this isn’t on the path to it. But yeah, I think some sci fi is trying to be predictive of the future and this book is not that, the proof is just a McGuffin for the books plot. I think this book would work equally well if instead of aliens the character was a magical creature from another plane or whatever and this was fantasy.
Finished today.Emotions: Mostly curiosity. What was going to happen next? Was the whole alien thing just a psychosis and part of the narrator's imagination or was it real? When I discovered there was no plot twist and the narrator really was an alien, I felt almost disappointed.
The whole 'money is bad, poetry is good' thing was just freaking lame. The relationships with the son and wife and paramour, however, were well told and engaging.
As I read this, at first, I thought it was about mental health, but by the end I felt it was about morality, ethics and just plain being decent. It could have been about mental health, but my takeaway was that it was not.
I like the flow, the voice, and sometimes the snark. I liked the exploration of love and honesty. I felt the interactions with the son were believable and endearing.
I will recommend this, but I didn't feel it touched on anything new or intensely cool. And it didn't have any cool plot twists.
I thought it odd that a civilization would do nothing but contemplate mathmatics as a means of enjoyment. Sorry I like math as much as the next guy - maybe more but as a way of life? Hmmm.
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Math is sure, constant. You can check it to make sure you're right, and if you're right you're not wrong. Paradoxes and imaginary numbers and asymptotes and other things well beyond my understanding might exist, but they follow rules, which is really, crushingly absent when you're in a mental health crisis. I think ethics is in here, for sure, but the dichotomy for me was between perfect order and safety but no room for wonder, or extreme highs and lows, with no guaranteed safe places. I think this is a false dichotomy, but a relatable one, maybe, for those of us who are trying to do the dance between functioning and thriving.
I finished this yesterday evening.1. Did you find it funny? Moving? Honest? Trite? What emotions did it inspire?
I guess all of those at times. It did make me laugh several times, but I realized in the first chapter that I was going to have to throw logic out the window to appreciate this one.
An alien species who is aware enough of Earth's activities to know when a single mathematician figures out how to prove the Riemann hypothesis couldn't manage to learn enough about Earth to allow their agent to blend in properly? Not even considering how quickly they can learn and absorb information? They didn't think it might be useful for him to already know the language and maybe learn enough about the culture to send him there with some clothes on? We could try to explain it away by saying that they’re aliens and so they don’t think the way we do and maybe they don’t believe in preparation, but if they can’t think ahead to consider and want to avoid negative consequences, then they wouldn’t have cared about the potential destruction and mayhem earth could cause with its new mathematical knowledge.
So for me, the book inspired a combination of amusement and exasperation, depending on which side of the window my logic was on at the time. I tried it throw it out, but it kept sneaking back in. The trite parts for me were the inevitable softening of the alien toward humans to the point where he learned to love some of them and thought humanity with all its flaws was so much better than his own species’ way of life that he gave up all his great gifts to become one. Sweet, but trite.
2. What were some of the observations about humanity (or mathematics) that you found most/least interesting?
I wasn’t that interested in the mathematics aspect, but I did enjoy most of the various observations about humanity. I just had trouble buying into some of those observations coming the way they did from the character they did at the time they did. The long list of “Advice for a Human” did get tedious for me though. I liked it better mixed in with the story rather than in one concentrated dose.
3. A lot of this book touches on themes of mental health. What were your thoughts on this?
I didn’t have a lot of thoughts on it at the time I was reading it, to be honest. The author’s acknowledgements at the end of the book where he related his experiences with panic disorder and how that motivated him to write this book interested me and helped give more retroactive context. While I was reading the story, I often felt like it was overly sappy. I did especially enjoy the parts with Gulliver though, and I liked the way the alien helped Gulliver increase his confidence and his ability to cope.
4. Anything else you liked or didn't?
I really liked the dog and all of the scenes between the alien and the dog. But authors, please stop feeding dogs toxic foods! :p It would have been more funny when the dog ate the “Earth” if it hadn’t been a grape.
Edited to fix a pronoun.
Allison wrote: "...Math is sure, constant. You can check it to make sure you're right, and if you're right you're not wrong. Paradoxes and imaginary numbers and asymptotes and other things well beyond my understanding might exist, but they follow rules, which is really, crushingly absent when you're in a mental health crisis...."Yes.
I liked this overall. Moving and vivid and funny. In a few spots I thought characters did things that did not ring true. E.g. some of the advice on the list did not seem realistic for an alien who's only been on Earth a few months, so that the voice of the author interfered with my enjoyment of his story.
Reminded me of The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time: another British fish-out-of-water story told first-person by someone who has trouble understanding the people around him (in that case because of autism). Also that narrator is good at mathematics and relates to a dog.
I enjoyed this one, the light tone really hit the spot.
Do you think the narrator is special? Would any alien in his position have done the same? How much of his falling in love (with humans, and with Isabel specifically) has to do with his innate nature and how much has to do with human hormones and such?
In these sorts of culture shock stories, I like how you backform the rules of normalcy based on what surprises them. Any time an author lets you make a leap of logic indirectly is the best sort of writing. The one that really got me though was roads. Even in a world without cars and roads, I tried to imagine one without even some analogous feature, such as hallways, connecting point A and point B. What about an aisle between rows of chairs in a room? The author perhaps didn't mean to take the idea to its ultimate conclusion - a world of points and no lines - but I sure did. Thinking of space in the 1st dimension is as baffling as the 5th.
Ryan wrote: "The part about learning the language in 100 words was completely unrealistic to me, no matter how advanced your innate language ability is, even if computer-aided. There's just not enough context w..."Oh, I also had some eye-rolling reactions to the treatment of language acquisition. Yeahhh... that's not how it works. Like many things, you just have to let it go.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time (other topics)This Is Water: Some Thoughts, Delivered on a Significant Occasion, about Living a Compassionate Life (other topics)
About a Boy (other topics)
A few questions to get us started:
1. Did you find it funny? Moving? Honest? Trite? What emotions did it inspire?
2. What were some of the observations about humanity (or mathematics) that you found most/least interesting?
3. A lot of this book touches on themes of mental health. What were your thoughts on this?
4. Anything else you liked or didn't?