Do Better: SFF without Sexual Violence discussion
Group Guidelines - Town Hall
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Worlds with Inequality & Oppression - (Sept 29-Oct 11, 2020)
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Beige wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Is sexual harassment and groping considered sexual violence? If so, “calculating stars” has those and can be removed from the shelf with more conviction. 😛"Good question, that has..."
Personally, I agree with the Rainn definition of assault. To me, sexism is more institutional....being overlooked, mistreated, disrespected, or left out due to your sex. Actually being touched is assault. And sexual harassment is being made to feel uncomfortable in a sexual way on purpose without necessarily being touched.
Mod
In the "Types of Sexual Violence" > "Sexual Harassment" section they expand on the concept: https://www.rainn.org/articles/sexual...
but as they draw the line from a legal perspective (in the "What is the difference between sexual harassment and sexual assault? What about sexual misconduct?" paragraph) we're back to square one for our purposes.
As far as I'm concerned, I agree with Kristen: unwanted and unsolicited body contact of an openly sexual nature - such as groping - to me counts as assault. We can discuss about other forms of sexual harassments, maybe using the list of examples RAINN provides, but if there's uninvited touching with openly sexual innuendos, I wouldn't be comfortable having that book in our general shelf.
Mod
That puts 3 of us in full agreement. I know these are difficult topics, I feel weird even posing the question. Thank you both!
I'll update the guidelines to try and reflect this decision
Elena C. wrote: "Beige wrote: "I looked up the rainn organization's definition and they include "Fondling or unwanted sexual touching" as sexual assault."In the "Types of Sexual Violence" > "Sexual Harassment" se..."
Popping in to say that I agree with Kristen as well about, as Elena succinctly puts it, unsolicited body contact of an openly sexual nature. I'd feel uncomfortable adding that put in the shelves too.
Mod
That puts 3 o..."
It certainly does! As I was writing my reply I kept second-guessing myself - am I making a case in favor of sexual harassment here? Am I dismissing the gravity of such behaviors? The psychological impact they might have? What does constitute a threat exactly ? Who am I to say if someone should or shouldn't feel threatened by being subjected to, say, catcalling? Why are we even trying to draw a line here??? - but I think an essential part of the brainstorming exercise we do here is too help keeping each other focused on our end goal.
We ask uncomfortable questions now so that we can be comfortable with our selection of awesome SFF reads in the future 😉
Mod
..."
Well said. 😉
It very quickly became clear to me why others approach content warnings the opposite way, listing all of the triggers instead of what we are aiming to do. Their way is sooooo much easier!!!!! Haha!
But I still think the project is worth the effort, I believe the bookshelf will become a great resource over time. And I very much value the conversations we've had so far.
Mod
We are looking for feedback on comment 48&49 in this thread
These comments include are a recap of our discussion and link to the guidelines, which have been updated based on your feedback
Once we have agreement on this, we can move on to the next discussion, which is our approach to Series 😁
I really like these guidelines: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/9nb57j/sexual_violence_in_sff_database_introduction_and/And personally, as someone who has experienced a wide range of SV all my life, I would see catcalling and calling attention to my body in an unwelcome sexual manner on the street as harassment and SV.
It is a bit of a tough line to draw in the sand. And it can move for person to person. So I'm okay if we use those guidelines mentioned above.
P.S. Thanks for the new notification.
Beige wrote: "Hey everyone - now that notification are working again. Yay! I wanted to help you catch up. We are looking for feedback on comment 48&49 in this thread
These comments include are a recap of our ..."
I just read the new mission statement / guidelines, and I like it. I feel it provides a clear snapshot of what the group is all about.
I'd say that the new mission statement sounds clear and good to me. One thing I'd change: you say "and isn't acknowledged by the characters": I'd change it to "isn't acknowledged/disapproved of within the book" in order to also be inclusive of stories with omniscient narrator voices who aren't characters in the book but can still provide commentary/judgment/make fun of something through irony. E.g. think of some of Terry Pratchett novels: while Equal Rites, for example, addresses and condemns things such as restrictive gender roles directly by making the characters do so, in other books the same can be conveyed simply by narrative tone and voice and by how something is portrayed as something obviously silly and misguided.
I'm in agreement with what has been said, for example groping does count as assault. I also think Eva's edit of that line to read "within the book" is a good idea.Nothing original to add. Just, again, thank you for developing this resource.
I found the thread relatively late but read all the comments and agree with the current assessment. I would also second Eva's suggestions since "condemned by the character" doesn't include the possibility of narrative voice and authorical voice. "Within the book" is open enough to allow for a condemnation by various parties that make up the story and book.
I'm in agreement with the guidelines including Eva's edit. Great work!! :)
Elena wrote: "We ask uncomfortable questions now so that we can be comfortable with our selection of awesome SFF reads in the future."
Perfectly expressed!
I am in full agreement with the Mission Statement. I also agree that much of Classic and probably even Contemporary SFF/Speculative/Horror will eventually be excluded. Too many authors may not see a problem and if not, write work that includes problematical issues and behavior and speech/thought.
Mod
- Add Elena's wording unwanted and unsolicited body contact of an openly sexual nature
- Changed the wording as Eva suggested from protagonist to within book
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Next up: I'm going to work on the FAQs next and will share them for feedback soon.
Mod
Our FAQ draft is now posted and ready for your feedback. 😁
I wanted to draw particular attention to question #10. It's not something we've talked about and I have been seeing some of your DB group comments in my GR feed. It's certainly helps promote the group, but I've opted to turn off my setting because I don't believe all of my GR friends are interested in my Do Better comments, or any group for that matter 😉
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Thank you so much, Beige, the FAQ is great! Hahaha, I think no. 10 on how to not show your public posts here in your feed is a good tip: when I joined this group and started posting about "this one contains a rape scene, that one has...", some people on GR started thinking I was utterly obsessed with SV and that I base all of my reviews exclusively on its presence or absence (lol, I usually don't even mention it in reviews). I've gotten some nasty comments from men on GR about it since joining this group. Which... was helpful for figuring out who to unfriend, but maybe not everyone wants to deal with constant comments on how you're "hung up on this topic" blah blah. After all, we're creating this list because we'd like to make it easy to find good reads that are NOT hung up on this topic.
Mod
Thanks, Eva!
And also thanks for sharing your experience with the feed. I like your way of thinking. Kudos for seeing the silver lining 😉
Thank you for your comment, Eva, because this made me realise that I want the conversations here to stay within the group and really have no inclination on debating some people - usually just men - on why SV in books is fucking exhausting.Luckily, I haven't received any negative feedback like you - and I'm sorry you did - but I want to prevent from attracting future comments of that kind, just in case.
I always find it incredibly revealing when men don't accept that you want to avoid SV in the media you consume. No, their first instinct is to be defensive by attacking you. They take it personally which is...rather telling.
Yes, random dude online, we know that SV exists in real life. Believe me, we know. WE KNOW. WE. KNOW.
Thanks for reminding us to uncheck our feed, Beige!
Thank you so much, Beige and Gretel! I agree: we know it exists in real life! By the way, e.g. dealing with one's period and female hygiene products etc. ALSO exists in real life, but imagine if it became utterly pervasive general practice to describe every single time a character changes their tampon in detail: how those same guys would whine about this being in their books - and the latter is not even a triggering subject that a large percentage of readers experience as deeply upsetting to read about. But I'd bet a lot of money on the same guys now complaining about women being too sensitive about it and wanting to be coddled would be the exact same men who'd be up in arms about wanting their books to stay tampon-free. 😄
Mod
Well, as you said... good riddance! I hope you didn't lose anyone particularly meaningful to your GR life in the process, that'd be a major bummer.
Mod
EH BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MIDDLE AGES
FOLKS WERE RAP*D ALL THE TIME
SO IT ONLY STANDS TO REASON THEY WOULD BE IN FANTASY TOO
IT'S CALLED HISTORICAL ACCURACY YOU OVERSENSITIVE SNOWFLAKE
DRAGONS, OGRES, ELVES AND SV
yes this should be a public groupThe FAQ is beautiful. I love how you used such compassionate and eloquent language, for example about how we're not all at the same place on our journey.
Mod
Mary wrote: "Where do we fall on dystopian books where is not physically/violently enforced but culturally expected with social/economic repercussions if a woman does or cannot have children?":
Good question. We have agreed to include books that explore themes of oppression, but exclude sexual violence and dubious sexual consent. The scenario that you raise could fall into either of these, depending on how the author chooses to convey this in the story. I propose we deal with these on a case by case basis.
For example: Last week, I approved the book Early Riser which was recommended by Rebecca as suitable for our group. When I researched the book, reviewers agreed that this was not oppressive and didn't feel like a violation. The society was matriarchal and with a threat of human extinction. It was the women who proposed the solution and was a cultural norm. So not very triggering to the vast majority of readers.
We're certainly open to discusses this further, especially if anyone has another point of view to share ☺️
Beige wrote: "I'm moving Mary's question to this threadMary wrote: "Where do we fall on dystopian books where is not physically/violently enforced but culturally expected with social/economic repercussions if ..."
I noticed that Amatka was on the bookshelf. i really liked the book but I thought I'd point out, It's set in an oppressive rigid society for both men and women, the women are expected to have children to ensure the continuation of the society, if they don't voluntarily they are sent to 'counseling'. There is only the main character clearly not wanting to have a child but feeling pressured into it. The author is exploring more the pressure women face socially and historically to have children, but not sure if this is a issue for inclusion on the bookshelf.
Mod
First, I want to share that when I do the content warning tagging of everything on our shelves, I'll also be checking to make sure the books also meet our revised guidelines. I'll bring any books I question to this forum. Not that this should stop you raising concerns in the meantime, I appreciate it 😉
And this one. Ahhh, so tricky! Looking at our current guidelines you could say that it falls under dubious sexual consent. Or you could argue it's more dubious procreation consent and that it's not the same thing? We could say, they key question is...is she expected to procreate in a loving relationship? Or is it forced, like the women in the The Handmaid's Tale
If the answer is the sexual act is forced, then no question, we exclude it. If the sexual act is through a traditional relationship maybe we could consider keeping it?
If it's not forced, we could also look at it this way...the aim of our group is to exclude SV for:
1) readers that find even mentions of SV triggering
2) readers who are tired of seeing SV used as a plot device
If it's not a forced sexual act, I don't think the readers in #2 would be concerned as this isn't the typical kind of SV we are tired of. I 'guestimate' the majority of readers in #1 wouldn't be triggered because being forced to procreate with your partner is not something our readers would have likely personally experienced.
Thanks again for this, I got to really exercise my brain!
Mod
Cheryl, thank you for your kind words. They mean a lot. Most of my writing experience is on the technical side of things. You perceived it as I intended and I couldn't be more thrilled 😁
Mod
But... I still think it should stay, with its own CW: the fact that women are expected to procreate is only one face of a society that imposes a high level of control and expectations on all its citizens to function - never in an outwardly violent manner, the author makes clear that the whole thing requires a high level of cooperation and acceptance from everyone involved to work - that's at the very core of the story and the worldbuilding, and the resolution of the plot deals with this very system in its entirety.
It isn't a society where there's very clearly someone who's violently subjugated and exploited, like in The Handmaid's Tale, nor there's a situation where the character themselves openly state that they've been forced into (view spoiler)): in Amatka everyone participates in the system.
I agree with Elena on Amatka. I think this also relates to our decision on societal homophobia and sexism - both of those impose generalized pressure regarding sexual behavior, which many sometimes be expressed directly to a character and impact their life in visible ways. But it crosses the line when there is a specific situation of coercion.
Mod
@Mary - I'm inclined to keep the book on the shelf for the distinctions raised by Elena & Kaa. I also think it might be difficult to add such a nuance to our guidelines, but I could try and work it into the FAQ. Let me know if you have a different view.
Thanks for the responses, I wasn't really questioning it's place on the bookshelf but more interested in clarification around dystopian/childbearing theme. Possibly I'm also being subconsciously influenced by recent supreme court decisions in the US. :(
Mod
Certainly worth discussing, thanks again.
Possibly I'm also being subconsciously ..."
I want to know, but I think my brain has had enough of the US after the last 2 week news cycle [insert every possible emoticon here]. I'll look into it in a few days.
Mod
Oh, I didn't think you were! You actually brought up a good example of a worldbuilding for which some discussion in favor of inclusion/exclusion of the book from the shelf was needed, I was just trying to provide some more context for those who haven't read the book yet 😉
Do Better: SFF without Sexual Violence
Books mentioned in this topic
The Fifth Season (other topics)The Handmaid’s Tale (other topics)
Amatka (other topics)
Early Riser (other topics)
Parable of the Sower (other topics)
More...
Good question, that hasn't come up yet. First we have to decide where to draw the line. That line, and the laws associated with it, vary from country to country.
I looked up the rainn organization's definition and they include "Fondling or unwanted sexual touching" as sexual assault.
https://www.rainn.org/articles/sexual...
There are two things to consider with calculating stars.
1) Is there a pervasive threat of rape?
2) Does the grope, to you, read as harrassment or assault?
With our expanded guidelines...
a) If there is a threat or it as deemed as assault, then it is excluded
b) If there it reads as harrassment it would be added to the shelves with a warning label for sexism (or any other label term the group agrees to)