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Little Dorrit
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Little Dorrit - Group Read 2 > Little Dorrit: Chapters 1 - 11

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Robin P The illustrations were so important in a time before movies, TV, etc. I have a feeling that "evil" characters were the most fun to draw, just like many actors say villains are the most fun to play.


message 252: by Milena (new) - rated it 4 stars

Milena | 153 comments Judy wrote: "I think this one by Harry Furniss from 1910 is especially interesting, showing the jailer and the little girl feeding the "Birds"

Oh dear, Rigaud looks devilish in that image :D


message 253: by Pamela (last edited Sep 18, 2020 09:05AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Pamela (bibliohound) Oh yes, the box is a good cliffhanger! But I’m also intrigued about who ‘Double’ is - I notice that although Flintwinch is rough and rude to him, he isn’t able to bully him like he does Affery - this person isn’t scared by him. He obviously needs the services of this Double.


message 254: by Milena (new) - rated it 4 stars

Milena | 153 comments This is so brilliant of Dickens: telling a story through the distorting mirror of Affery’s sleepwalking. You don’t know what’s true in it, and what comes from Affery’s imagination. I’ve been speculating quite a lot as to who “Mr Flintwinch’s twin” might really be, before writing this post. I didn’t come to any satisfactory conclusion, but keep on reading. What a terrific cliffhanger.


Connie  G (connie_g) | 1039 comments Judy, the illustrations were wonderful. It's interesting seeing the jail scene from another perspective.


message 256: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 25, 2021 01:20AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Thank you Martha :)

Nisa and Jenny - Well done for pausing here! The thing about Charles Dickens is that he rarely goes straight on with one "story" within a story anyway! So "What's in the box?" (if the Double is real), is likely to remain an unanswered question for quite a while.

Judy - I'm delighted you're joining in, and had wondered if you would post at the end of the first installment, as I think you said before that that's how you like to read :) That scene seems a long time ago now, as so much else has been introduced!

I do always like Harry Furniss's work, and wish he had produced more illustrations for Little Dorrit, as I could only find a handful. Yet a lot of illustrators have chosen to picture "The Caged Birds", as I said at the time! Thanks for adding this one. Rigaud looks like a little gnome at the bars! Fearfully evil.

May I just add a warning though ... if you do follow Judy's link, be aware that before you get to the other illustrations there are facts about the novel which are bad spoilers. Also, if you look at other pages on the Victorian web, listing all the illustrations by Phiz, say. then the way The Victorian Web does it, is to quote a part of the text which fits. And this of course gives away serious plot points too. (That's why I don't link to them). If however you know the story well, then you're fine :) Also, while I'm on the subject, beware of Wiki - even for a character. You'll be likely to find out more than you wanted to :(

James Mahoney did even more illustrations for Little Dorrit than Phiz! So, often it will be an illustration by him which I include. And if nobody did one for a particular chapter, then I'll include one from a TV dramatisation :)


Connie  G (connie_g) | 1039 comments There seems to be a good reason behind Dickens giving Flintwinch a bad posture/neck crick. How else will the characters be able to tell who is Flintwinch and who is his twin/double/brother? His double is not intimidated by Flintwinch because they probably grew up together, and he knows all of Flintwinch's tricks.

Flintwinch is a very scary man who wouldn't hesitate to harm Affery if she revealed the visit from his double. He's the type of man who would only marry someone he could control.


Martha  | 57 comments Judy wrote: "Hello everyone. I'm just joining the discussion after starting my reread a couple of days late. There's a selection of illustrations by different artists showing Rigaud and Cavaletto at the start o..."

Love this, Judy! My copy The Modeen Library Classics has a few illustrations, but I like seeing a variety on here.

I have one question on Chapter 1 if anyone can help me. I could not find Anywhere (in Chapter 1) the word “smuggler” related to the Italian, yet several people on this thread and Shmoop mention it. What paragraph/page can I find that this Italian is a smuggler. Or, is it only insinuated (which I did not catch either). Thank you!


message 259: by Nisa (last edited Sep 18, 2020 11:36AM) (new) - added it

Nisa | 69 comments Martha at chapter 1 after jailer left when Monsieur Rigaud was talking to John Baptist (little man or Italian) at some point he said that,
"'Here I am! See me! Shaken out of destiny's dice-box into the company of a mere smuggler;—shut up with a poor little contraband trader, whose papers are wrong, and whom the police lay hold of besides, for placing his boat (as a means of getting beyond the frontier) at the disposition of other little people whose papers are wrong; and he instinctively recognises my position, even by this light and in this place. It's well done! By Heaven! I win, however the game goes.'"

I hope this is the answer for your question. :)
On my ebook it is in page 5.


message 260: by Judy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "May I just add a warning though ... if you do follow Judy's link, be aware that before you get to the other illustrations there are facts about the novel which are bad spoilers. ..."

Thanks for posting the warning, Jean - sorry, I just saw there was a request to link to the page if using the images, and didn't realise this would involve spoilers. Must confess I didn't read all the text!


message 261: by Kim (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kim Kaso | 11 comments I grew up in a small town with 7 churches, church bells rang out and the Amish who lived around us would fill early Sunday morning with the clip-clop of horses’ hooves as the families drove their buggies to whichever farm was hosting services that week. My best friend could not play cards on Sunday...she was not supposed to do much on Sunday at all except read the Bible, pray, meditate, but as we grew older she was allowed to come to my house. One summer we were involved in a canasta tournament that went all summer, and she insisted we play at my house, but she always lost badly on Sundays, which guaranteed my winning the tournament. I said we could skip Sundays, as it was clear by a couple of Sundays in that she was falling behind, but she insisted on defying the stricture even if was a stealth defiance. Another dear friend could watch only one hour of television which made watching a movie impossible as would have to choose either the first half or the second half. No VCRs, no digital recorders, no on-demand, or streaming. You watched it when it was on or not at all. Almost no one could go swimming on Sunday, but curiously my best friend & I could go riding after we attended our respective services as her father liked to do that, so we could also. I am with Dickens on the over-emphasis on the Old Testament rather than the redemptive message of the New Testament and the encouragement to love. As Arthur felt the heavy blanket of Sunday gloom, I remembered how interminable some Sunday afternoons in late fall/early winter felt.


message 262: by Kim (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kim Kaso | 11 comments As Arthur entered his home, I felt the recognition that we were entering the dark heart of the story. His mother and Flintwich remained in my memory long after I finished my first reading of the novel. And there is the briefest of introductions of our titular heroine, Little Dorrit. Dickens loves to give us little glimpses, small bites of characters that will prove to be key. And as some are dark, Little Dorrit is the good heart at the center.


message 263: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 18, 2020 10:56AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Judy wrote: "I just saw there was a request to link to the page if using the images, and didn't realise this would involve spoilers ...."

Also just scrolling down after the image, to see the other illustrations, a really bad spoiler shouted out to me :( Such a shame for first time readers.


message 264: by Judy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments Thanks Jean, I've edited my post to add a spoiler warning for anyone clicking through.


message 265: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 24, 2020 08:29AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Kim - Thanks for these close-to-home examples! I remember some of this too. I was allowed to watch a little TV (unlike my friend), but not go to the shops. We could play games, but not competitive ones. And in my family, there were no jobs done on Sunday, only hobbies such as reading :)

But then other religions, such as Jewish orthodox, have restrictions for the Sabbath. And there is fasting at various pre-festival times for Moslems. (I think we have friends in this read who belong to both (one or other) of these religions). Charles Dickens knew far more about the religion he practised, of course, and so painted these condemnatory portraits of people and factions he considered destructive or hypocritical.


message 266: by Judy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Judy - I'm delighted you're joining in, and had wondered if you would post at the end of the first installment, as I think you said that;s how you like to read :) That scene seems a long time ago now, as so much else has been introduced!..."

Thank you, I'm delighted to be joining in too. I do like to read in instalments but must admit I've just read straight on today, and am almost at the end of the second instalment already.

I am reading my lovely trade paperback Penguin which was issued in 1987 as a tie-in to the Christine Edzard film, with photos of many of the cast but also with end notes etc, and with the original running titles at the tops of the pages - I do love those. :)


message 267: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 18, 2020 11:10AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Thank you for the edit, Judy. That's nice and bold!

I do prefer the 1987 adaptation in many ways. It captures the ennui at various points. But I like the way we're taking this at a chapter at a time, as Charles Dickens puts so much into one installment, that the discussion is better, when it's broken down. I love how many people are joining in day by day :)

Little Dorrit in particular introduces so many characters in those first 4 chapters, and if we hadn't paused, one of two of them they would be hard to remember when they return!

The original readers had both a benefit and a frustration, I think, but anticipation is worth a lot. I like to eat one chocolate from a box and save the rest for later. My aunt used to guzzle the whole layer! I wonder which of us enjoyed them more.


message 268: by Judy (last edited Sep 18, 2020 11:29AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments Bionic Jean wrote: Chapter 3...In every thoroughfare, up almost every alley, and down almost every turning, some doleful bell was throbbing, jerking, tolling, as if the Plague were in the city and the dead-carts were going round …

I was interested to see here how Dickens carries on the plague imagery, after the quarantine in the previous chapter. Later in Chapter 3, after Arthur returns home, plague is mentioned again:

"The old articles of furniture were in their old places; the Plagues of Egypt, much the dimmer for the fly and smoke plagues of London, were framed and glazed upon the walls."

On the subject of a different illness, I'm wondering if Mrs Clennam has Parkinson's Disease? My grandfather had it and the descriptions of her rigid face etc sound quite similar, although shaking isn't mentioned so perhaps not.


message 269: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1544 comments Kim wrote: "I grew up in a small town with 7 churches, church bells rang out and the Amish who lived around us would fill early Sunday morning with the clip-clop of horses’ hooves as the families drove their b..."

I find this fascinating. I lived a long time in Maryland where there is still a large Amish presence. Unfortunately, I never got to have more than a passing relationship with any of them and certainly did not feel comfortable asking too many questions about what was or wasn't allowed.

Our own Sundays started with church and the injunction not to work on a Sunday was taken seriously. Nothing was open, so no one shopped. In fact, it was almost exclusively a family day. Daddy was home all day--the only day that he was. There was always a big Sunday meal. Lots of cooking and laughing in the kitchen and everyone very, very hungry before it was served. Then clean up the dishes and then time for reading, playing, sitting on the porch in rockers just talking. I don't remember being bored and when I think back, those are the days I miss the most.


message 270: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 18, 2020 01:11PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Sara - Lovely memories :) It was church twice a day for us (Sunday School in the afternoon) and dinner at grandma's in between. So we had a similar habitual Sunday.

I'm sure "Sunday Observance" in practice as these family-oriented Sundays, are not what Charles Dickens was criticising! Arthur Clennam would have been a much happier little boy in that case. What an emotionally deprived childhood the poor little mite had.

Judy - That's an interesting thought about Parkinson's. Mrs. Clennam certainly seems to have some progressive condition, doesn't she?


Martha  | 57 comments Nisa wrote: "Martha at chapter 1 after jailer left when Monsieur Rigaud was talking to John Baptist (little man or Italian) at some point he said that,
"'Here I am! See me! Shaken out of destiny's dice-box into..."


Oh my gosh - Right under my nose! I looked for quite a while to find this earlier- I guess I didn’t go far enough. Perfect. I’m a stickler for things like this. Thank you!


Debra Diggs Well, I am really off with this book. I do not know why. Maybe I need to read more carefully. Anyway, I thought Mrs. Clennam was fake sick. That she was really a bitter old woman who did not want to deal with the world.


message 273: by Katy (last edited Sep 18, 2020 04:35PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Katy | 292 comments You could be right Debra. We don't really know what's wrong with her at this point.

I'm wondering if Flintwinch gives his wife "physics" on a regular basis. Since he is obviously using it as a threat, physics must have a negative association for her, more than what would usually be associated with taking medicine.


message 274: by Susan (new)

Susan | 12 comments Hi Jean and everyone. Thanks Jean for the summaries and illustrations. I really appreciate them.

It seems like everyone is enjoying interpreting the characters and making some interesting comparisons with those in David Copperfield. I think the big difference between David and Arthur is that David had the love of his mother and Peggotty and that gave him a good basis for growing up to be a caring and affectionate person. From what we’ve heard so far about Arthur’s childhood he had no one except perhaps Affrey and she is completely downtrodden.

Another comparison is between Peggotty and Tattycoram who are both maids but also considered part of the family. Until the Murdstones arrival Peggotty was treated with affection and respect and her love and loyalty were with the Copperfields. Tattycoram is shown no respect by the Meagles, in fact barely treated as a human being at all. Dickens often uses names meaningfully and tatty implies something shabby and worthless.

I have watched the first episode of the BBC series with Claire Foy. It is wonderful.


message 275: by Elizabeth A.G. (last edited Sep 18, 2020 08:27PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Elizabeth A.G. | 122 comments I'm a bit late today, but wanted to remark that Flintwinch not only threatens Affery about giving her a physic, he has also grabbed her neck very tightly as if to strangle her and which Affery couldn't escape understanding as a threat to her life. He certainly has violent tendencies. There is definitely indication that he would like to injure or kill his "doppelganger" as he was dozing in their meeting. We know Affery is afraid of him, but I don't recall if Affery stated he ever struck her?


message 276: by Ashley (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ashley Jacobson | 95 comments I’m here! I’m catching up on comments, but I just have to say I’m glad you’re discussing which comments refer to which characters! I feel like I’m having to read a few lines over and over to figure out who they are talking about! Of course it’s beautiful Dickens writing, but I’m still sorting out some characters!

Also, ancestry.com says that the surname Rigaud is a derivative of Richard. I just thought that was interesting, though not super relevant to the story, unless someone knows why that would matter to Dickens or influence his choice of name.


message 277: by Tr1sha (new) - rated it 3 stars

Tr1sha | 66 comments I’m joining this read today, a few days late. I read this book just over 2 years ago but it will be good to learn more about it by reading it in the group.


message 278: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 19, 2020 09:26AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Debra wrote: "Well, I am really off with this book .., I thought Mrs. Clennam was fake sick. That she was really a bitter old woman who did not want t..."

Not at all Debra! As Katy said, we really don't know at this point! And actually, today's chapter 5 adds more fuel to your thoughts!

I used to have an uncle and aunt who were always, as my parents called it "poorly or coming poorly". They did have a few ailments, but nothing really bad, and were always miserable - making everyone around them fed up too.

Then there are the individuals who become the family "patient", and the household is run around them. Their perceived illness is a form of domination, and the family live in fear, knowing they mustn't upset so-and-so.

It's quite possible that Mrs. Clennam has some illness, but is capitalising on it - plus her wrathful religious beliefs - and a fair dollop of martyrdom. What a horrible person, sinking into a misery of her own making.

Susan, Trisha and Ashley - I'm so pleased you're joining in too :)

Susan - that's a fantastic comparison between Tattycoram and Peggotty! And can be extended to include Affery too! What a difference there is between someone who is valued, and someone who is not. Would Affery really have been such a nervous frightened old woman, if she had not been bullied?

Elizabeth - I'm thinking along the same lines as you and Katy here. Perhaps pushing it a bit further... if he's not a wife-beater already, could Flintwinch turn into one?

The names are always fascinating, Ashley, aren't they? With some, the meanings are obvious, and others have several possibilities for their derivation.

Nisa - thank you so much for locating the reference to smuggling :)


message 279: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 19, 2020 04:10AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Chapter 5:

The chapter begins at 9am on a Monday morning. Jeremiah Flintwinch has just wheeled Mrs. Clennam to her desk, to start her day’s business, when Arthur arrives. He asks his mother if she is feeling better, but she says austerely that she never will be better; she knows it and can bear it. She has been waiting for over a year for Arthur to come home to talk about the business, ever since his father died.

Arthur replies that there had been much to do, and then he took a break “for rest and relief”. His mother stares, not seeming to understand the concept. Arthur tells his mother that he plans to relinquish the business:

“Mother, our House has done less and less for some years past, and our dealings have been progressively on the decline … Now, it is a mere anomaly and incongruity here, out of date and out of purpose … I have done with it. I will not take upon myself to advise you; you will continue it, I see.”

Gone is the self-control and martyrdom. Mrs. Clennam’s reaction is extreme and severe:

“Great need had the rigid woman of her mystical religion, veiled in gloom and darkness, with lightnings of cursing, vengeance, and destruction, flashing through the sable clouds”

Arthur waits for her to finish her wrathful outburst, and then says he wants to say something else, which has been on his mind for a long time. He reminds her that it was her will, not his, that he should remain with her until he was twenty, and then go to his father in China. But Arthur feels there may be a hidden grievance:

“In grasping at money and in driving hard bargains … some one may have been grievously deceived, injured, ruined. You were the moving power of all this machinery before my birth; your stronger spirit has been infused into all my father’s dealings for more than two score years. You can set these doubts at rest, I think, if you will really help me to discover the truth. Will you, mother?”

His mother's reaction is swift. Warding off the words with her arm as if they were blows, Mrs. Clennam quickly wheels herself to the bellrope to summons her servant. A frightened girl arrives on the scene, and is sent to get Flintwinch. Arthur’s mother tells Flintwinch, in a rage and with great bitterness, an exaggerated version of what Arthur has said. She then threatens to renounce Arthur if he ever mentions it again.



Flintwinch mediates between Arthur and his mother - Phiz

Flintwinch says he will not stand between the two of them, as he had stood between Mrs. Clennam and her husband for so many years, but he also says to Arthur that he has no right to mistrust his father without “grounds to go upon”.

Arthur refuses to talk about what is private between him and his mother. Mrs. Clennam tells Jeremiah Flintwinch that since Arthur says the business is now hers to do with as she likes, she will make Jeremiah her partner. Jeremiah Flintwinch sends for Mrs. Clennam’s meal, but although the oysters look very tasty, she refuses any food.

The meal had been brought by the young woman Affery had said is called “Little Dorrit”:

“her diminutive figure, small features, and slight spare dress, gave her the appearance of being much younger than she was. A woman, probably of not less than two-and-twenty, she might have been passed in the street for little more than half that age … she was so little and light, so noiseless and shy, and appeared so conscious of being out of place among the three hard elders, that she had all the manner and much of the appearance of a subdued child.”

Mrs. Clennam seems to very fractionally soften whenever she is speaking to Little Dorrit.

We learn that Little Dorrit is employed to do needlework between 8am and 8pm, but other than that, her life is a mystery. Oddly, she has an aversion to eating in company, and will go to great efforts to eat the meal she was provided with, alone.

As the day goes on, Arthur looks through the whole dark and gloomy house. In the room where his father had conducted his business, Arthur sees his portrait looking down at him, and looking as if he had abandoned hope a long time ago.

Arthur decides to lodge at the coffee-house where he had left his luggage, and they all agree a time when he will be at the house, to finally check the books and papers. During the next fortnight, Arthur finds himself becoming more and more curious about Little Dorrit. He speculates about the possibility of her being in some way associated with the mystery, and resolves to watch her, to learn more of her story.


message 280: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 19, 2020 09:30AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
This chapter is called “Family Affairs”, and what a lot of secrets there seem to be in the house which used to be Arthur Clennam’s home. Whenever we are in this house, it seems quite eerie and gothic, and seems to grow more and more sinister. The descriptions are riveting. Here’s one I really like:

“The furniture, at once spare and lumbering, hid in the rooms rather than furnished them, and there was no colour in all the house; such colour as had ever been there, had long ago started away on lost sunbeams—got itself absorbed, perhaps, into flowers, butterflies, plumage of birds, precious stones, what not.

WOW! Who else could ever imagine colours in a room being absorbed into sunbeams or butterflies. Amazing writing. I love that description—AND the first bit about furniture “hiding”. Nobody but Dickens could write that :)

Mrs. Clennam seems so austere and loveless: an appalling woman. And yet … Arthur has been away so many years, and in all that time she has been carefully keeping the business going, as a sort of caretaker. And now he comes back, and immediately says he doesn’t want anything to do with it! Whatever she is like, does anyone think this is a bit harsh? Could nothing have been said in all those years? Why wait until his father has died? It seems a bit spineless … but then we can see that Arthur has been emotionally deprived: damaged.

What wrong has been perpetuated? And how will all the characters fit into this historic wrong? What is the great secret we are now itching to discover?

Arthur tries very hard to winkle it out of his hard-faced mother. He thinks that before he died, his father may have had some secret memory of wronging someone, which caused him trouble in his mind. All the talk of grasping at money and driving hard bargains … but his mother seems by far the most powerful exponent at this. She doesn’t seem to believe in free will; life is all predestined fire and damnation. And she uses guilt as a tool, as well.

Money is clearly at the root of this dysfunctional family, and will be a motif in this novel. In the next chapter we are to see a monument to the lack of money.


message 281: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 19, 2020 09:32AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
A little more …

I’m not sure how well you can see the painting on the wall behind Flintwinch in Phiz’s illustration. It is a detail from John Martin’s painting “Joshua Commanding the Sun to Stand Still on Gibeon”.

John Martin was a friend of Charles Dickens, and a popular English Romantic painter of the period. He specialised in melodramatic religious paintings. They were often on a vast scale, and, like this one, included minute figures in imposing landscapes. Here, Joshua, the leader of the Israelites, is asking God to cause the moon and the sun to stand still, so that he and his army can continue fighting by daylight. The painting shows God creating a powerful storm to bombard the Canaanites with rain and hailstones.

The Art critic William Feaver says this was a very familiar illustration in Bibles at that time. Therefore Mrs. Clennam is quite likely to have had such a picture hanging in her in room. This chapter shows her extreme Calvinism and is full of ranting religious self-justification.

When Mrs. Clennam is threatening to disown Arthur, she asks Flintwinch for her Bible, and although he is reluctant, she makes Flintwinch witness what is virtually some sort of religious ritual in her mind. Also, the name “Jeremiah” fits in well with his function as mediator. From Mrs. Clennam’s rigid point of view, he would be arbitrating for her, the upright Mrs. Clennam, against the sinful Arthur.



“Joshua Commanding the Sun to Stand Still on Gibeon” - John Martin.

The painting shows Joshua’s hand raised in the same way as Flintwinch’s. One critic has also noticed a visual pun. In the painting, Joshua (the man of God) causes the sun to stand still, and here Flintwinch is required to cause another sort of “son” to stand, and stop rebelling.


Robin P I have read this book twice and the way I remembered it, Little Dorrit was an actual child at the beginning. But she only looks young by being so small and self-effacing.


message 283: by Judy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments That's fascinating about the painting, Jean, thank you. I love these examples of where the original illustrations comment on the text like this - especially interesting as Dickens worked closely with his illustrators and may have suggested some of these touches.


Connie  G (connie_g) | 1039 comments Your summaries and research add so much to our reading, Jean. I'm enjoying the illustrations for each chapter too.


Bookworman What's the most powerful part of this chapter for me the description of Mrs. Clennam regarding reparation and restitution. "Thus was she always balancing her bargains with the Majesty of heaven, posting up the entries to her credit, strictly keeping her set-off, and claiming her due." As if every action we take as human beings in our relationships is part of an accounting ledger where every interaction with others is a business deal.


message 286: by Mona (new) - rated it 4 stars

Mona | 70 comments Jean, I agree with Judy. The info about the painting is fascinating. I never would have known that was the painting in the illustration. That sort of information adds a lot to the reading.


message 287: by Mona (last edited Sep 19, 2020 08:20AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Mona | 70 comments Btw, from Mrs. Clennam’s violent reaction to Arthur’s question about her business ruining someone, I’d have to guess that Arthur’s intuition is accurate and has struck too close to home.


message 288: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1544 comments Jean, thank you so much for the information regarding the painting. Just the kind of detail that adds to the read and yet could be missed completely!

Mrs. Clennam and Flintwich (who I keep wanting to call Skinflint) make my skin crawl. I always love your leanings toward sympathy and understanding, Jean. I haven't the slightest bit of that feeling for Mrs. Clennam. I suspect the death of the father freed Arthur, at last, to give up a life that simply drains him and that he knows is controlled from his mother's end. At forty, I say he has been overly patient.

Great observations Bookworm. Dickens tells us exactly what we should think of Mrs. Clennam's religious leanings when he alters The Lord's Prayer. Smite Thou my debtors, Lord, wither them, do Thou as I would do, and Thou shalt have my worship. This was the impious tower of stone she built up to scale Heaven. The last sentence conjures up the Tower of Babel, and God brought that structure down to the ground. There is nothing Christian in her values.

We are also given a glimpse into how much we should trust Affrey. Similarly, if the two clever ones had agreed to murder Little Dorrit by candlelight, Mrs. Affery, being required to hold the candle, would no doubt have done it. She is their creature, 100% under their control. She will not, mostly from fear, ever go against them.

Does anyone else find it strange that Arthur would connect the suspected wrong of his father with Little Dorrit at this stage? Influenced by the predominant idea, he even fell into a habit of discussing with himself the possibility of her being in some way associated with it. A foreshadowing by Dickens, I suspect, that Little Dorrit will hold some key to Arthur's dilemma.


Anne  (reachannereach) | 649 comments Sara,I'm glad you asked:

I couldn't find any evidence to cause Arthur to consider Dorrit connected to the suspected wrongs of the father.


message 290: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 19, 2020 11:25AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Robin P wrote: "I have read this book twice and the way I remembered it, Little Dorrit was an actual child at the beginning. But she only looks young by being so small and self-effacing."

No, the first time we "meet" Little Dorrit, she is hovering in the background at Mrs. Clennam's. The time is the present: ie., Arthur has just returned from China. But in tomorrow's chapter 6, there is a lot of flashback about her early life, and this will be what you're remembering, Robin. Charles Dickens isn't telling the story completely chronologically.

Little Dorrit is certainly "small and self-effacing", as you say, but we are told that she has an old face. In fact this causes some consternation in a minor episode, later in the novel.

This is a vignette, which depicts her at the start of the novel. It's exactly how I think of her :)



Little Dorrit - by James Mahoney

Here's the relevant bit from today's chapter, 5: the first time we have had a description of Little Dorrit:

"Now that he had an opportunity of observing her, Arthur found that her diminutive figure, small features, and slight spare dress, gave her the appearance of being much younger than she was. A woman, probably of not less than two-and-twenty, she might have been passed in the street for little more than half that age. Not that her face was very youthful, for in truth there was more consideration and care in it than naturally belonged to her utmost years; but she was so little and light, so noiseless and shy, and appeared so conscious of being out of place among the three hard elders, that she had all the manner and much of the appearance of a subdued child."


message 291: by Debra Diggs (last edited Sep 19, 2020 09:54AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Debra Diggs I loved this chapter and highlighted the same passages that have already been mentioned.

Jean, the summary, information and painting are fantastic!

Sara, I think Arthur connects wrong doings with Dorrit because of the timing. Why is Dorrit here, now?

What is the family business? Banking? Undertaker? Jailer?


message 292: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 19, 2020 11:29AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
I'm glad you all enjoyed the details about the painting :) Each time I read a novel by Charles Dickens, there seems to be more to look at!

Judy - "since Dickens worked closely with his illustrators and may have suggested some of these touches"

Yes, I think that's more than likely in this case. Charles Dickens did specify details to Phiz, and demand a reworking if say, a chair was of a different type than he had expected, or someone's facial expression was not right etc. We know this from his letters. Later illustrators were off the hook, but I often think that Hablot Knight Browne must have had the patience of a saint!

In this case, since Charles Dickens was friends with the artist John Martin, I think it's highly likely that he may have asked for this particular painting to be included in Phiz's illustration - as well as the demeanour of Flintwinch.


message 293: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 19, 2020 11:33AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Bookworman - Good observation. Mrs Clennam cannot think outside her world of trade, and reduces everything to a transaction. Remember (in my summary) when she simply stares at Arthur, as she does not understand (or wish to understand) the concept of rest and travel.

Debra - I don't think the family business has been specified as such, but we know Arthur has been working in China for 20 years. Also, it must be to do with trade, from the mercantile behaviour of Mrs Clennam. Maybe fabrics? Or tea? China was the origin of the Silk Road, an ancient trade route from East to East. (Your suggestions made me giggle though :))

Sara - I really liked what you picked up about Affery. And Flintwinch sounds remarkably like "skinflint" :D

And as for your, Anne and Debra's comment about there being no evidence for Arthur to connect a suspected wrong of his father with Little Dorrit ...

Well, Arthur is musing - a lot! So he considers all sort of possibilities (for us). But this one, I think, is because he cannot otherwise make any sense of his mother's having employed Little Dorrit, seemingly out of the blue.

Affery says "she’s a whim of—hers". Surely anyone less likely than Mrs. Clennam to have a "whim" is hard to imagine!

Even more inexplicably, Mrs. Clennam treats Little Dorrit with noticeable gentleness, and she never treats anyone else like this. In this chapter:

"Mrs Clennam showed an interest in this dependent. Even in the moment of her entrance ... Mrs Clennam’s eyes had had some individual recognition in them, which seemed reserved for her. As there are degrees of hardness in the hardest metal, and shades of colour in black itself, so, even in the asperity of Mrs. Clennam’s demeanour towards all the rest of humanity and towards Little Dorrit, there was a fine gradation."

I can see that Arthur must be thinking, why is this? My mother is always talking about doing penance, and now this girl inexplicably appears, and gets more consideration and care than I do. Something is amiss here.


Robin P The name Flintwich, hard as flint, reminds me of Murdtstone, another hard name.


message 295: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 19, 2020 11:43AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
Charles Dickens often seems to include "stone" in his "hard "characters!

By the way Robin - I've just edited my answer to you to include the first quotation describing Little Dorrit.


Debra Diggs Thanks, Jean. I was certain the family business had been mentioned and I just missed it.


message 297: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1544 comments Thank you, Jean. Your explanation makes perfect sense. I laughed when you said no one would be less likely to have a whim--how true!


France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments I also appreciated the inclusion of the painting. The background of some of the pictures are like Easter eggs in DVDs, the reader having caught the subtlety must have been so proud of himself, I do wonder how much of it was decipherable at the time, what scale the pictures where on those originals.

I had thought the same thing about Little Dorrit and Arthur's thoughts, Jean. He knows his mother and how she would never protect and help someone without a good reason so I think it's normal he thinks it is about feeling guilty about Little Dorrit's situation and since his father also felt some guilt about a mystery hurt he'd given that Arthur joins the two in his mind makes a lot of sense.

My edition says that even if it's not clear in the text, it's believed that the firm of the Clennams was about money lending to Europeans though I wonder how that was deduced. I think the idea of it being a trade with China makes sense too.


message 299: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8442 comments Mod
France-Andrée wrote: "My edition says that even if it's not clear in the text, it's believed that the firm of the Clennams was about money lending to Europeans though I wonder how that was deduced ..."

Yes, we'll have to have our radars up for any later mentions :)


message 300: by Jenny (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jenny Clark | 388 comments Mrs. Clennam and Flintwich are such unpleasant characters... I cant even say they are amusing as satires! However, I do agree with you Jean, that Arthur could and should have spoken up sooner about not wanting to continue the family business.


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