World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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If you're not in the U.S., what's up in your part of the world?
Anyone should be able to compete. No problem to create another division. Of course, you can cancel gender altogether and let the strongest/agile/whatever win, but if you ask me, it won't be interesting, and whatever biased it might be - i prefer weight categories in boxing, weightlifting and other sports
The example of basketball is particularly telling e.g. 7ft male transitions and competes against 6ft females. Testosterone monitoring won't change the physics of the height and reach advantage.For running (stamina and some speed) the chemical drivers appear to reduce physical difference; however, they would still have stride advantage if the transitioning male was significantly taller than other competing females
This seems so simple to me, as it is for Caitlyn Jenner, former Olympian Bruce Jenner: ""This is a question of fairness. That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school," said Jenner, a Republican who is one of the most high-profile transgender Americans in public life. "It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools." If she had come out as transgender during the Olympics and been allowed to compete with women, there would have been no competition at all. She has the advantage of being a male, with all the advantages that gives her physically. Can you imagine how the women in her category would have felt to have been defeated by a male? It's just not fair, as she now says.
There's a Samoan female Luniarra Sipaia who lost to a transgender weightlifter during the Australian Open Weightlifting competition. "New Zealand’s Laurel Hubbard, who had previously competed as a male, dominated the women’s 90+kg category and claimed the gold medal.
Yesterday, Ms. Sipaia said it was an unfair for a man to compete in the women’s division.
“I only found out when we arrived in Australia and Tuaopepe told me about it,” she told the Samoa Observer. “At first, I thought my coach was joking until the day of the competition.”
“I felt that it was unfair because all in all, Laurel is still a male even though he already had an operation to change his gender.
“It only changed the physical side but her emotions, her strength and everything is still a male.
“So I felt that it was unfair because we all know a woman’s strength is nowhere near a male’s strength no matter how hard we train.”
Hubbard is 43 and still outlifting all the females. Here are the rules for transgender females and testosterone:
The IOC requires that male-bodied transgender individuals who want to compete in women's events have lowered their testosterone levels to 10 nmol/liter for a period of 12 months or more. For contrast, the average amount of testosterone in women's blood is far below the 10 nmol/per liter, at between 0.3 and 2.4 nmol/L. For men, the normal, healthy range for men is 9.2 to 31.8 nmol/liter. https://thepostmillennial.com/biologi...
I see this as a step backward for women's rights. Why are women being forced to compete against males? How the hell is this fair? The women are being discriminated against, after all their hard work and training, and no one is standing up for them.
If you're one of the people who think this is okay, imagine your daughter, who needs a tennis scholarship, playing singles tennis against a guy who identifies as female. How is that fair?
I agree with you, Scout. They should not be allowed to compete in the women's events. If yo9u ban muscle enhancing drugs, you should also ban whatever they do to put a m,ale into the women's events.
I'm just enjoying the humor in it.Female Weightlifter Suffers Tragic Testicle Injury Just Weeks Before Tokyo Olympics
https://babylonbee.com/news/female-we...
Ian wrote: "I agree with you, Scout. They should not be allowed to compete in the women's events. If yo9u ban muscle enhancing drugs, you should also ban whatever they do to put a m,ale into the women's events."It begs the question of what would happen if a female athlete took androgenic steroids all through puberty, and into her adult years and then lined up to compete at the age of thirty in the Olympics against other women?
Contrawise, if a boy, transitions prior to puberty and avoids a decade or more of male hormones, while taking female hormones, then they are likely to be on a level playing field with people who are born female.
As Scout points out above, the IOC requirement is as follows,
'The IOC requires that male-bodied transgender individuals who want to compete in women's events have lowered their testosterone levels to 10 nmol/liter for a period of 12 months or more.'
I suspect the IOC's definition is way off the mark.
I suspect that if you want to compete fairly in woman's sports, you need to have avoided male puberty.
After all, we don't allow drugs in sport, and male hormones are powerful, performance enhancing drugs.
So, why are we allowing competitions where some of the athletes have pumped their bodies full of performance enhancing hormones for years and the other athletes would be banned for doing so?
Where's the reciprocity? Without reciprocal rights there can only be injustice.
The average age of female Olympic weightlifters is 25. This "stunning & brave" dude is competitive at 43. If he had stayed a man, his career as a competitive weightlifter would be long over. But he got his outie turned into an innie and went on hormone therapy for awhile, so now the IOC says that he's one of the world's top female athletes.https://youtu.be/6rIyoVweItQ
The essence of reciprocity in action.REF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSry...
Reciprocity allows us to identify the presence and absence of fair and just circumstances.
It's hard wired in.
I'm from NZ and very disappointed the country has headed in this direction. In so many other countries people are calling for more equality, yet in this story there clearly isn't equality. Women are just not built like men, plain and simple. Nothing wrong with it. And now women face even more of a challenge.
Scout wrote: "I see this as a step backward for women's rights. Why are women being forced to compete against males? How the hell is this fair? The women are being discriminated against, after all their hard work and training, and no one is standing up for them...."This is the one area I find truly funny about the whole thing in a perverse manner. After hearing for years women are equal to men and now that they actually have to compete they are now crying it is unfair.
I am a bit ambivalent about this issue. It is not that I do not understand or I think it is fair. I do understand and certainly wonder about the fairness. However, it is not all cut and dried. There are now transgendered men competing against men and holding their own in sports. Should these former women not be allowed to compete? For those of you that are old enough to remember, there was a transgendered woman that used to compete in tennis. Her name was Dr. Renee Richards. She was a top competitor, but used to get her head handed to her by the best female tennis players.
As a person who played lots of sport well into his forties, I have competed against women on all levels. Yes, I pretty much always won, but it was not easy and I had to try very hard much of the time. Girls compete in football, soccer, baseball, and martial arts against boys all of the time.
As for Scout's question on girl's scholarships, I think it is both a fair and honest question. Here is my answer and it is not nearly as flippant as it is going to appear. To get a scholarship, it takes lots of things going right, lots of hurdles to overcome, and luck. Proper coaching, being in the right place at the right time, avoidance of injury, being on a winning team, and avoiding burnout. This is one more hurdle. If you are depending on a scholarship, then either overcome the hurdle or have them get better grades.
PapaP, there's nothing funny about this. Women want equal rights in competing for jobs. Competing physically against genetic males after training for years in a competitive sport is not fair. It's not fair. Tell me how it is.
There is a collision of interests of a few parties involved: athlete - other athletes - spectators. In my opinion - the right balance is not by forcing converts on others. No problem to open a new category to compete there. Do women want to compete with transgenders? Do spectators want it? I don't. Paralympic games, for example, give an excellent stage for invalids to compete
Ukraine plans for women to march in high heels spark outragehttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe...
Didn’t see any female soldiers’ reaction in the article. Maybe they won’t mind, despite what others say on their behalf. In Ukraine women rarely make an issue about gender equality, especially when it comes to paying for anything :)Nevertheless, Yulia Tymoshenko was probably the ballsiest prime minister Ukraine had so far: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia...
Nik wrote: "Nevertheless, Yulia Tymoshenko was probably the ballsiest prime minister Ukraine had so far: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia..."Going by the side eye glare that she's wielding in her picture, I kind of want to see Biden negotiating with her. His hair sniffing fetish would not go well for him.
On a slight tangent, there's something disturbing about a political party named, "Fatherland". It brings to mind Germany in the Twenties, Thirties, and Forties.
J. wrote: "On a slight tangent, there's something disturbing about a political party named, "Fatherland". It brings to mind Germany in the Twenties, Thirties, and Forties...."Yes, but it's mostly because of the bad choice of word for translation into English. In Ukrainian - her party has the regular meaning of "motherland"
J. wrote: "Ukraine plans for women to march in high heels spark outragehttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe..."
In a TV clip I saw, not only did they plan - they marched!
Statues are becoming an endangered species. Quick - we need the statues protection movement :-)
That's a great idea, Nik. Have a separate category in which transgenders compete against others with the same biology. That would be fair.
Do you guys remember when Matthew was here criticizing the U.S. for slavery, immigration policies, and its treatment of African-Americans? I brought up this very issue, which he ignored. He didn't want to talk about it. Turns out that Canada doesn't live up to its squeaky clean reputation, has no basis for its criticism of the U.S.
Scout wrote: "PapaP, there's nothing funny about this. Women want equal rights in competing for jobs. Competing physically against genetic males after training for years in a competitive sport is not fair. It's ..."I am not laughing. Yet, it is very simple. If they want equal rights, they compete on an equal field. Either these are women or they are not. Now the quandary, after all of the screaming about is how some one sees themselves as compared to what it is actually biological; the chickens have come home to roost. Now it is affecting their future and livelihood. Now it matters. Let us see how honest they are now. It is very easy to say to someone YOU have to accept them for what they see themselves as as compared to actually having to deal with it.
Scout wrote: "Do you guys remember when Matthew was here criticizing the U.S. for slavery, immigration policies, and its treatment of African-Americans? I brought up this very issue, which he ignored. He didn't ..."No country past or present has a squeaky clean history. Criticism is fine, it is when it is done without the ability to debate and disagree that it turns toxic.
Papaphilly wrote: "Either these are women or they are not."Following Aristotle, the next step is to write and complete the statement: "A woman is . . ." The problem now arises from political correctness which prevents those in authority coming out and making the obvious end to the statement.
Ian wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Either these are women or they are not."Following Aristotle, the next step is to write and complete the statement: "A woman is . . ." The problem now arises from political corr..."
And then Diogenes bursts in with a plucked chicken.
Strangely, the more I think about that story, the more it seems appropriate to the issue.
J. wrote: "Ian wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Either these are women or they are not."Following Aristotle, the next step is to write and complete the statement: "A woman is . . ." The problem now arises from po..."
I think you are exactly right. Trying to find an honest man in this situation is going to be hard.
Papaphilly wrote: "Scout wrote: "PapaP, there's nothing funny about this. Women want equal rights in competing for jobs. Competing physically against genetic males after training for years in a competitive sport is n..."Your reply sounds very misogynistic. Women have never claimed to be as strong physically as males; they just want equal opportunities for jobs based on their qualifications. My point is that if you have the strength of a male, you should compete against males, not females. Let's just make a different category in sports where genetic males identifying as females compete against each other. That would settle the issue and allow females to compete against each other and be rewarded for all their hard work.
Scout wrote: "Your reply sounds very misogynistic. Women have never claimed to be as strong physically as males; they just want equal opportunities for jobs based on their qualifications...."When all else fails, they call you names.
She is a female and is competing as a female. Now they are on equal fields, the equal want it special. I am well aware of your point and you seem to miss my point. They got exactly what they said they wanted, equal rights.
"She is a female . . ." Define female. If you integrate the female aspects from birth to now, she is not equal to others that started life female. Wanting equal rights is not exactly relevant here because a separate women's athletic competition assumes females are not equal to males. This "she", if she wants equal rights, could compete in the open status. Actually, I gather that once upon a time "she" did complete as a male adult. The bone and muscle structure were not changed.
Ian wrote: ""She is a female . . ." Define female. If you integrate the female aspects from birth to now, she is not equal to others that started life female. Wanting equal rights is not exactly relevant here ..."She is defined as a female and is allowed to compete as a female. What else do you need to understand? Regardless of what anyone thinks about this particular athlete or this conversation in general, Laurel Hubbard is both accepted and allowed to compete by the International Olympic Committee. She has met the guidelines including, testosterone levels, and qualified through competition. BTW, those of you that think she is going to run away with the gold should know she is only ranked seventh.
Is there anything wrong with transgendered males from competing with males if they qualify?
Papaphilly wrote: "Is there anything wrong with transgendered males from competing with males if they qualify?"I'll bite.
Sure, I have issues with Olympic athletes who can claim that exogenous testosterone, AKA steroids, is a medical necessity. Especially, when that medical necessity is the result of an entirely elective procedure.
J. wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Is there anything wrong with transgendered males from competing with males if they qualify?"I'll bite.
Sure, I have issues with Olympic athletes who can claim that exogenous t..."
Just so we are on the same page, are you saying that transgendered people are elective?
Yes, sex reassignment surgery is a series of elective cosmetic procedures.
Not sure about then cosmetic part; the surgery is fairly brutal, as i understand it. But it most certainly is elective. It cannot happen by accident, or by willing it.As for defining a female as because some committee said so is weird. How about the chromosome structure - XX or XY? Or how about the presence of the female reproductive system, either now, or if removed for reasons such as cancer?
J. wrote: "Yes, sex reassignment surgery is a series of elective cosmetic procedures."OK fair enough. There is no point on going any further on this discussion.
Ian wrote: "Not sure about then cosmetic part; the surgery is fairly brutal, as i understand it. But it most certainly is elective. It cannot happen by accident, or by willing it..."Using that argument, then any reconstructive surgery for any reason is elective.
As much as I agree on the the female statement, the International Olympic Committee has set standards on what is allowable. They have done it for other athletes for various reasons and have determined that there is not a unfair competitive advantage.
I think in this discussion, the first step is to find common ground on whether one sees these transgendered as the sex or not. If one does not , then the discusssion is over because even the base question cannot be agreed upon. If one agrees the transgendered are the sex, then one can argue over competition values.
Ian wrote: "Not sure about then cosmetic part; the surgery is fairly brutal, as i understand it. But it most certainly is elective. It cannot happen by accident, or by willing it."It is elective because it is not required for survival. It is cosmetic because it does not restore function that was lost due to trauma and/or disease. Instead it takes healthy, functional organs and alters them into nonfunctional simulacra of their opposites.
I have reservations about the ethics of the surgeons. "Brutally" altering healthy organs in order to treat psychological symptoms seems excessive. And the minimal change in suicide rates between surgically altered and unaltered patients calls into question its efficacy.
I guess it depends on what you mean by cosmetic. I had taken cosmetic to mean correcting a perceived defect that had no genuine adverse effect on the body, and restoring the body to more like its ideal shape/form. I agree about the ethics of the surgery. I know on person who, with a wife and young children, went away, did that, shocked wife divorced and thus had the expected financial trouble, while transgender is now a lesbian, if anything. Such a confuse person should not have that irreversible surgery.
As for the competitive sporting issue, for me the question is, do the competitors start from equivalent positions? If the competition is for females, someone who has done the body-building as a male should be excluded because that is an unfair advantage. If the political correctness of a committee is the deciding factor we have really lost quite a bit.
Ian wrote: "As for the competitive sporting issue, for me the question is, do the competitors start from equivalent positions?..."What is equivalent? Do you think Lebron James is equivalent to me? Even at my very best, I did not have the talent to start high school basketball. That is not an equivalent position. Lets make this about guys vs. girls. How about Simone Biles? Would that be fair? Once again she has by far more talent in her pinky that I do combined with you and J. There is no equivalent talent again. As a matter of fact, I doubt there is any man that could compete with her on the uneven parallel bars or balance beam.
So let me ask the question again that both of you are avoiding, do you think these transgendered people that have gone through all of the protocols and surgeries are the sex they say they are or not?
No, if you surgically modify a cat to look like a dog, you have not turned it into a dog.Transgender individuals are people with serious psychological issues who believe that those issues can be solved with surgeries and hormone treatments. They are human beings with all of the rights attached to being human. They deserve compassion and sympathy for their suffering. They do not have a right to call facts, "hate", just because said facts refute their point of view.
J. wrote: "No, if you surgically modify a cat to look like a dog, you have not turned it into a dog.Transgender individuals are people with serious psychological issues who believe that those issues can be ..."
Fair enough.
My answer is the same as J's. They are surgically modified males with steroid enhancements. I would have no problem with a transgender competition, and recall there are paraolympics for handicapped people.
Once again fair enough. One last question for the two of you. Are you friends or at least antiquated with any transgendered?
Papaphilly wrote: "Once again fair enough. One last question for the two of you. Are you friends or at least antiquated with any transgendered?"Not to my knowledge.
My understanding is the result of research which has convinced me of three things:
1.) We don't know why transgender people feel the way they do. I have seen hypotheses floated about maternal hormone fluctuations at critical points during gestation, disorders similar to what is seen in patients who claim that an appendage is not part of themselves, and all manner of psychological disturbances.
2.) Transgender individuals are at significantly higher risk of self harm and suicide. Because we don't understand the reasons for their mental state, we cannot be certain what (if any) part of the suicide rate is from being transgendered, as opposed to issues arising from being rejected by friends, family, and large segments of society in general.
3.) Sex reassignment surgery does not change your past. All that it changes is your appearance, at the cost of sterility and permanent dependence upon exogenous hormones.
It seems to me that people are far to quick to pursue costly and damaging medical intervention for a condition which we do not really understand.
Antiquated?? Hopefully not. Acquainted with? Yes, the person in my post 743 is a close relation to my son-in-law.
It's one of those things where political correctness may have gone a step too far. For some reason a scene from Trainspotting comes to mind, where Frank Begbie is making it out with a lady in a cab until he realizes .... :) Tell him she's a female.Sometimes we may be too entrapped in what's "right" and saying anything against immigration, BLM, or even complimenting women can automatically lead to being tagged "savage"... But then again some must indeed be savage .... :)
World, Writing, Wealth
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