SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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Poll: Should We Allow YA Books as BOTM?
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Anna
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Aug 17, 2020 01:41PM
colleen, I'm sorry to hear you've experienced that. I would ask that if it happens again, please contact Allison or me!
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Mod
There have been some times were people very vocally didn't like something I liked, and I just didn't comment at all.
It's a little bit about being timid, and a little bit about not being worth my energy to enter into the discussion..."
Here? Recently? I don't like that at all. You are always free to decide when and why to participate, but if exclusion is happening because of your own personal opinion about how much you liked a book, that isn't the result we're looking for. You don't have to say more here if you don't want, but I would like to know more in a DM or something even, if you have the energy, so that I can see what sorts of things made you feel bad personally.
We can't be everywhere all the time or perceive all the same tones in writing that someone else perceives, but I do want to see what something that might cause discomfort to someone else looks like so we can better head those moments off before they become toxic.
No pressure, and obviously a bit too late, so don't worry that this will become drama in group, but if it was here, I am sorry you felt that way and would like to make sure you feel included next time :)
This goes to everyone else, too. I do actively exclude people--this group is not safe, for example, to nazis, violent misogynists and white supremacists and their sympathizers. But it is very near and dear to my heart to make this some place that most people can find some way to enjoy the conversations they wish to enjoy. You will always be taken seriously if you message me or Anna, and while our tools are limited, we're very prepared to use them to make our club more welcoming to genre fans of all backgrounds.
I appreciate your concern. Honestly, it's been awhile - several months, at least (I have a very bad grasp of time passage, unfortunately) - and I don't even remember which book it was, offhand.But I promise if I'm ever feeling attacked again I'll reach out to you.
I do try to make allowances for the fact that oftentimes people are just passionate and don't mean to 'attack'. It's just a lot, sometimes, to be the minority voice when several people are being passionate at you at the same time, as it were.
Mod
Mod
Ryan, you do get passionate sometimes. But in a very good way!
Definitely taking notes :) of course the more Capybara pictures, the easier the clues will be. What YA book did we read, in August that rhymes with Don Draper?
Mod
LOL, Hank! More Capybara pictures!
"Which book was Shadowshaper?"
A. Catfishing on Catnet
B. Shadowshaper "
Allison wrote: ""Which book was Shadowshaper?"A. Catfishing on Catnet
B. Shadowshaper "."
I always read Shadowshaper as Shadowweaver.
(view spoiler)
Hank wrote: "Definitely taking notes :) of course the more Capybera pictures, the easier the clues will be.
What YA book did we read, in August that rhymes with Don Draper?"
that's a good one.
Christopher wrote: "They always remind me of the rodents of unusual size from Princess Bride"The Doors of Eden.
ROUS mentioned.
Capybaras mentioned.
!
That's just spooky! Is Tchaikovsky lurk-reading our posts? And how angry is he that I still haven't read him?
colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "I appreciate your concern. Honestly, it's been awhile - several months, at least (I have a very bad grasp of time passage, unfortunately) - and I don't even remember which book it was, offhand.Bu..." fully agree, i stopped writing posts a while back as if liked a book that was classified as YA it didnt met the high standards of some troll.
not worth fighting about so these are positive posts at the moment
Silvana wrote: "Rereading Eva's comment about rating difference, do we know the demographics of this group? I often asked that in every group I am in. Definitely not asking the mods to do this, but I am curious on..."just read through most of this thread. i am 70, read my first sc fi when i was 8 and have lived a life of science ever since( work and reading ) I found YA when i was checking whether a book was suitable for one of my children.
since then i have read sci fi, fantasy and YA ( or all of the different letters)
I think many YA books are really not for teenagers or children, they are classified that because they dont have a lot of violence described nor do they give details of sex.
but it is the story that i want, so i pick up authors from these threads. i would hate to have to try and find another site to do this.
surely a selection of books means that you can eliminate what your dont want.
I really get annoyed with people who get superior with " i dont read YA as they are for children" Maybe i am just young at heart, two science degrees, working in science research and i am now classified as a young thing. wow
Hi-5 for young at heart! You can always count my silver strands against me. LoL =D
I’m with both of you, Soo and Kateb!! Bring on the YA *and* the silver hair!!
Mod
We should allow YA Books because I think YA is also for teenagers.There are teenagers in this group,this was not a group of "NO TEENAGERS STRICTLY ADULTS" I am a teenager too!.So my vote is on Allowing YA Books. If anyone thinks I am wrong then tell me there opinion on why there should be "NO YA IN Scifi and Fantasy book club
Good comment Anees and I personally love having teenagers/younger demographics in the group and hearing your opinions. What do you think about the idea that I value your opinions on non-YA books more than YA books?
I don't think many of us are for a hard rule against YA, I would just like to limit them a bit more than they have been recently. My reason for being in this group is to get exposed to a wide variety books I had not heard of or been interested to read and then have thoughtful discussions about them. This can obviously include YA books but most of the time IMO the concepts in YA books are too shallowly touched on to have good discussions about.
The goods is The goods. (translation: why miss something of quality because it has been labeled a certain way)
Ok I'm jumping in late, so I've just skimmed all the previous responses. Here are my thoughts:One of the reasons I like YA books is because they are a fast, easy read. That means for a group read its less investment so I'm more likely to participate. They also tend to have less complicated politics which means the action tends to be faster, which is my preference.
More adult fantasy tends to be quite dense and requires more committment, which means I'm less likely to read it for a group read. It's too time consuming, and by the time I've read it, the discussion is moving on to the next book.
The other thing I consider is availability - a lot of the books I've seen in polls tend to be old school fantasy, which makes it really hard to find. I generally loathe e-books so if that's the only option for a group read then I'm highly unlikely to participate. Whereas if the book is easy to find (and for a decent price) there's more chance I'll pick it up and join in.
I've also found that most of the books talked about in this group is stuff I've never heard of - the survey was a great example, because of those books we were asked to categorise, I've only heard of 3. So when you constantly see books you've never heard of in the polls, it starts to feel a bit like this group is only for 'elite fantasy buffs' (sorry for any offence taken). I'd be more tempted if I saw more recently released fantasy, or popular books I see a lot of people talking about.
I'm someone who would like to participate more but tend to find that not knowing what everyone else is talking about is a little alienating, so I usually just don't participate. If I see books in the polls that I've heard of, that interest me, that I might be tempted to read, then I'll vote.
As far as the Adult vs younger books debate goes, I do think we should allow all since participation is optional. It also means you'll have different people participating each time, instead of the same people reading the same kind of books and having the same kind of discussions.
I know it's hard to keep everyone happy when there are so many members but that's my 2 cents!
Mod
Can you talk a bit about "not knowing what everyone else is talking about" and how it alienates you? I'd like to make sure that the barriers to participation are as low as we can make them while still keeping everyone on track.
All great comments Krystal! Particularly the feeling alienated and having different people participate. Good things to think about for me personally, making sure my comments allow everyone to feel included.
It can be a bit exclusive at some times with all the books being new and pricey. And sometimes there seems to not be too many YA, books, but perhaps sometimes there are too many ownvoices or gender fluid or female oriented books. Too some people this might be considered alienating. I don't mind it, but then I'm a woman.Maybe a month for YA, a month for classics (I enjoyed Dremsnake and the Andre Norton choices), etc. I don't vote in polls where I don't recognize anything and when I open the choices, nothing appeals to me. Maybe I'm picky (I am I can as walk into a book store and come out with nothing which is why my 400+ TBR pile amazes me) or something...
I actually think this group does an excellent job of offering older/classic and new choices. I will say the older books tend to appeal less to me because I feel like SF and F don’t age as well as some other genres and then on the other hand in terms of accessibility, the older choices are much easier to find/obtain than new stuff that may have a waiting list or a high price tag.ETA: I ran this data on the last years worth of books, in case anyone is wondering:
(view spoiler)
I love the less popular and diverse picks the group has to offer so far, so keep em coming! I think the group presents a good balance of the less known and the popular/trendy. And, if you are not happy with the polled books, there are always buddy reads to accommodate everyone's interests. Why only have to rely on the polls, right? It's as easy as posting an invite in the BR recruitment thread.
Sarah, I love seeing the numbers! Thanks!
I agree with Silvana: keep the diverse picks coming! And I really like the buddy reads as well; if I cannot read BOTM, I am usually reading a buddy read. Also, I really enjoy the challenges; I have been a part of this group for awhile but it was the inclusive book bingo that brought me back to the group. In the time travel one, I read books that I would have never read and now with the short fiction challenge have read some amazing short stories. But I am what Allison might categorize as a "lurker" lol - I am here always observing but only sometimes participating. I don't always vote and I will read a BOTM if I can get my hands on it at the library etc. I rarely comment on the BOTM threads but I do read them if I read the book; I listen to the virtual book discussion and I read many of the threads but I comment only occasionally - why? It is most likely a mixture of a little bit of shyness at times, not having anything of significance to add or maybe believing no one really want to hear what I say - and all of those are me issues, not group issues.
But I had to step out of the shadows to unequivocally say I do not believe this group should exclude YA books. I do not think a book should ever be off the Sci fi/ fantasy BOTM based on the age of protagonist or intended age of audience. Honestly, this came as a big surprise to me because I feel like we rarely read what I would consider YA books.
A quick side note: I appreciate that Allison and Anna always remember us less vocal members and respect our participation levels.
Allison wrote: "Can you talk a bit about "not knowing what everyone else is talking about" and how it alienates you?"As an example, I was following the 'Currently reading' thread, but I found that, firstly, I was rarely familiar with the titles everyone else was reading, and secondly most people were, which led to longer conversations in the thread about books I didn't know, as well as in-jokes and references that went over my head. And if I was reading YA fantasy it felt like it was taboo to mention it (LOL relevant)
But it's not really something I can criticise! It's more like the more active members of the group seem to all be on the same page, whereas I'm reading an entirely different book (metaphorically speaking).
As well as that, it's very much what Nicol said:
Nicol wrote: " It is most likely a mixture of a little bit of shyness at times, not having anything of significance to add or maybe believing no one really want to hear what I say - and all of those are me issues, not group issues."
So ultimately its a 'me, not you' thing haha.
Krystal wrote: "Allison wrote: "Can you talk a bit about "not knowing what everyone else is talking about" and how it alienates you?"As an example, I was following the 'Currently reading' thread, but I found tha..."
That is true for everybody in the currently reading thread. Since we talk about everything we are reading and since we have so many members there will always be talking about books others haven't read/heard of. I guess I don't know 3/4 of the books folks are talking about there. This thread is only meant as an overview and perhaps for getting new ideas for looking into books hitherto unknown to oneself.
Mod
And Krystal, I can totally see why jumping into the fastest conversation in our group would feel daunting, but let me personally say I want to hear what you're reading! I get so many new ideas for polls and my own reading from book friends. If that's too much of a leap, I really do want to hear what you think, so if you ever want an old thread "resurrected" so you can talk about a book you've read from the group shelf or past BR, I'm happy to lead the charge, just ping me!
We are constantly looking at ways to make sure that there really is no wrong way to read or participate in this group, which isn't always smoothest sailing or effective, but we are listening and do want this to be the haven it's been for us over the years!
Krystal wrote: " ... I do think we should allow all since participation is optional. It also means you'll have different people participating each time, instead of the same people reading the same kind of books and having the same kind of discussions..."I have noticed this. Sometimes some of the conversations here feel a little cliquey and sometimes a little predictable/ stale. One of the reasons I don't participate as much as I want to is because the books chosen seem to have more in common with each other than with what I want to read. It's not a universal problem by any means, but I do agree with Krystal.
And thank you, Krystal, for saying this. I felt it, but needed your words.
Don wrote: "The goods is The goods. (translation: why miss something of quality because it has been labeled a certain way)"Thank you Don. This is what I came on to say.
And the converse. There's a lot of shallow trash masquerading as 'adult' SFF, too. And we've read some of it in the group.
Btw, Krystal, Allison does make a good point about buddy reads. Perhaps you and I both need to propose more of those. :)
Mod
Part of the reason we're such sticklers about staying "on topic" in threads is to try to make it easy (or at least, easier) for folks to jump in and out. Hard enough jumping in to a sea of voices, but if it's gone off about inside references or totally different topics, I personally think that's a lot harder.
We heartily encourage folks to make threads about things that interest them! I know I'll never be able to think of all the different things folks will want to discuss or the ways they'll feel welcomed, so work with us! I get messages from people who have thoughts but aren't sure where to put them, which is often why I start new threads :) I am happy to be the social shield/tank, just point me where you need me! I can't help if I can't see it!
No matter what happens re: YA, most of our themes and polls are generated at least in part by group members, so if you're not seeing what you want, there is a mechanism to help us home in on what else we can add to the mix ^^
CBRetriever wrote: "perhaps sometimes there are too many ownvoices or gender fluid or female oriented books."You're probably referring to my unrelenting mission to correct the group stats. I can't, as a mod who has influence over what goes into mod polls, not try to make sure we also read books by people who aren't able bodied, straight white males. But the themes make up for that, since all members get to nominate. And I am never going to apologize for trying to lift up diverse voices.
Cheryl wrote: "One of the reasons I don't participate as much as I want to is because the books chosen seem to have more in common with each other than with what I want to read."
This is also probably in part my "fault". I can't feel bad for it, there is no universal book taste we all agree with, so mod polls will always be influenced by the mod who populates them. I have thought about trying to tap into the reading tastes of other group members, who maybe like books that are more along the lines of the books the majority of group members read, but with our silent (and welcome!) masses, how are we to know what the "group taste" is like? I am almost always completely surprised by which books win polls, so clearly I have no idea what the (voting) members like to read!
So, like Allison says, tell us what you do and don't like, what you'd like to see more and less of, and we'll do our best to take that into account! There will never be a theme/poll/BOTM that everyone is happy with, but I'd like to at least not make over 50% of our active (in whatever way that is for you) members unhappy.
(If this came across aggressive, I'm sorry, I'm typing in a hurry because I'm super hungry and about to get my dinner out of the oven.)
Anna, you're fine, and your message is fine. I hope you're enjoying your dinner. :)I know about nominating books and voting in polls and suggesting buddy reads and asking in PMs for help.
But it's not a perfect system. Majority trumps, squeaky wheels get the grease, etc. Nothing you can do about it, at least nothing I can think of that won't disturb your most passionate members, or improve things much for your quieter members. But I felt the need to share that Krystal is not the only member who sometimes feels as she does.
Mod
I hope overall folks are happier than not with some aspect of the group. We've asked you to share feelings about YA and the polls, and some of you have been very forthcoming with other areas you'd like to see changed in some way. I know I'm not perfect and the GR platform isn't perfect but I have been extremely happy with the community we've grown and that we continue to foster. My metaphorical door is always open and I appreciate you all so much!
Mod
Anna, no apologies wanted - I was trying to explain why some people might feel it's a bit exclusive sometimes. I do read all types of books, but usually only when they drop to the $1.99 range or they're an author I really like. I have made the transition to being comfortable with they/them instead of the gender pronouns, so I am changing.
So I request the moderator's of this group to give the output of this poll of "SHOULD WE ALLOW YA BOOKS AS BOTM(Book of the month). In this huge discussion I am sure that the we all have seem to come at a point to summarize this whole discussion and come to conclusion. So what's the result??????????
I'm way way late to this party, but I just answered the poll, and essentially my feelings on the matter are summed up in the comment I left: I'm in favor of allowing any and all books that fit the group genre themes, regardless of intended or implied audience age. :)
Anees, Allison will put together the results and share them!Thanks Cheryl and CBR, I wasn't really directing my frustration at you two! :)
I just read all the text responses in the poll results, and again I want to thank everyone who has commented! So many kind words in general, but also some excellent suggestions!
I want to share a sneaky sneak peek, sorry Allison :PDoes it surprise anyone that we have some members who don't read adult fiction at all? :)
Anna wrote: "I want to share a sneaky sneak peek, sorry Allison :PDoes it surprise anyone that we have some members who don't read adult fiction at all? :)"
Nope! Many of my GR friends are strictly YA readers.
I also think that there should be diversity in every book of the month,like we should to not repeat the same basic plot. All have to discuss together to what to read this month. If everyone will give their opinions about every main sessions like polls,book of the month,book challenges, recommendations of books etc.... then all will have a common bond or feeling towards the group. This will result in reading more diverse books. I think they should also be recommendation's for the "BOOK OF THE MONTH"
Anna wrote: "This is also probably in part my "fault". I can't feel bad for it, there is no universal book taste we all agree with, so mod polls will always be influenced by the mod who populates them. I have thought about trying to tap into the reading tastes of other group members, who maybe like books that are more along the lines of the books the majority of group members read,.."Yeah, I know, OT, but: Don't you dare :D! Your suggestions are my single most important source for really good books off the mainstream (and often overhyped) mass-reads. <3
Haha Gabi, thanks :D But we probably also have lots of people who miss Sarah's mod poll selections, those who have similar taste to hers. Or some might like to see something completely different!Allison, maybe we'll switch genres for 2021? :P
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