SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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Poll: Should We Allow YA Books as BOTM?
I didn't hiss when I read the title of this poll but I definitely sighed really hard.We already limit group reads to science fiction and fantasy (I assume - it's in the group title). I don't get trying to further restrict the range of what we read. Part of what I enjoy most about this group is that it exposes me to writing in the genre that I might not otherwise see. That includes books that some consider YA. Some of my favorite group reads from the last year fall into that category.
Given how fuzzy these categories are it's difficult to see how this would be enforced anyway. And now there's NA too? Really? Is MA (maturing adult) next? How about GR (grumpy retired)? I'd hope for more of that last one if we're going to do the categorization thing - but you could probably tell that from this post.
For what it's worth I'm one of the people who rarely comments in the spoilers threads for a book. By the time I get around to reading/finishing something it's usually near (or past) the end of the month and people have had their say. That doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy the read. If there's a lot of negative reaction to a book that I enjoyed it's even less likely that I'm going to bother reading all the way through the spoiler thread and then comment anyway. So maybe there is some bias there and I realize that I'm not helping.
If we're going to consider a change I'd like to see fewer grimdark books in the polls - or at least fewer of them winning. But I don't get to tell people how to vote. Doing that indirectly by adding more target age restrictions doesn't feel right to me either.
Raucous wrote: "How about GR (grumpy retired)?"lol, I bet that subgenre would be great :D I mean Remnant Population! <3
Anna wrote: "Can you expand on that a bit? Are you saying that a narrow focus in general doesn't lead to good nominations, or that the specific themes we've had didn't work for you?"For me? It's a bit of both. Sometimes, I am not interested in the theme or I'm not engaged by the book that wins the poll. The results are mixed depending on the chosen topic and nominations based on search results & members.
Depending on factors & access, I'll join a BotM or BR for books that are outside of my interests to see if I'll like it. It's good to explore.
I think that it's hard to find great books when you are looking for criteria centered books. It's a treasure hunt. You have to do a lot of work to find the treasure. Sometimes, the options are very limited. That generally means that it will be harder to find a great book that will appeal to the majority.
Internet searches can help a little bit to find gems but that's not a guarantee.
The lists on GR used to be handy but it's a hit & miss now.
As a reader, my first thoughts about a story are not going to be about the gender of the writer, their age, experience, location, interests or politics. Those are things that I may think about after reading the book or when it's brought up as part of the discussion of the story.
I read for the story and how the writing will move me. Questions about the writer may arise as I read the story but that's a by product. It's not my goal. When I read, I want to experience the tale being told.
Non-fiction is great because of all the cool things that make up life.
Fiction is wonderful because it takes life and creates strange twists that can be awe inspiring, snarky, weird, peaceful or disgustingly gory.
Themes are cool as long as it's a part of the story told.
I'm not going to think a book is wonderful because it has a particular topic that is a hot topic of choice in current society. I will think the book is wonderful if it is well written and moves me to think it's wonderful.
That's me as a reader. Totally different viewpoint if I am thinking as a critic, writer, etc.
Raucous wrote: "For what it's worth I'm one of the people who rarely comments in the spoilers threads for a book. By the time I get around to reading/finishing something it's usually near (or past) the end of the month and people have had their say. That doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy the read. If there's a lot of negative reaction to a book that I enjoyed it's even less likely that going to bother reading all the way through the spoiler thread and then comment anyway. So maybe there is some bias there and I realize that I'm not helping"Necroposting for the win! You can always post later. =D
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But great points said well and with good humor, too. Thank you for the response!
We need one of our resident artists to make a Necroposters badge :PSoo, thanks for explaining further! I was wondering if you had a different style for (themed) nominations in mind.
Anna wrote: "Raucous wrote: "How about GR (grumpy retired)?"lol, I bet that subgenre would be great :D I mean Remnant Population! <3"
Exactly! I'm looking forward to that poll. :)
I am curious about what everyone thinks about this idea and I am not sure it is possible but what do we all think would happen if we labeled a book YA when it gets to the polls?This of course opens that huge can of worms, why don't we label everything? And why aren't voters making educated decisions and at least looking at the books they are voting for?
It feels like the heart of this issue is the perceived disconnect between voters and active participants in the group. It would be interesting to me to go back over time and see what would have won using only the votes of say the top 50 posters in the group versus what actually won. Or some other way to dig into the differences.
The most active members dominate the nomination process (which is fine, I feel). Any lurkers who vote only do so after the universe of possibilities is narrowed to five. I don't think that their influence needs to be further attenuated. Besides, who is active is dynamic and can be influenced by the books that are chosen.
Melanie wrote: "@Gabi"A YA book treats adolescence as if the character is moving forward trough time as an adolescent. And an adult book looks back on adolescence even if its about a young character. So you can k..."
Thanks a lot, Melanie! That's a really good explanation, indeed.
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Is there already a trend visible in the poll, Allison?
Apart from YA vs. other, we have been reading several newly published authors and some books that were considered underrated. That is good for broad exposure to the genre, but it also means taking a risk by going beyond bestsellers, award nominees, and authors with a long publication record. I set my expectations accordingly: a little disappointment with some of the books is a price I'm willing to pay for an occasional new-to-me gem.
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@Chris: this is one thing that I absolutely embrace in this group - that there are outsiders in the polls I would never ever have stumbled upon where I only following the masses. These last two years I've been with the group my reading preferences changed a lot thanks to gems I only found through the polls.@Allison: I'm looking forward to the outcome. I'm curious if it will mirror the relation of comments here or if the silent majority feels different.
While I prefer adult over YA, there are quite a few books that I really liked for example Six of Crows of our shelf. A lot of people classified this as YA, but is it really? Also, books by female writers tend to be YA more often when compared to male authors. So my biggest worry is the definition of YA. Still, I would probably not vote (and read) books that clearly target a younger audience (approx. 12 years).
Another stat I'd be interested in although probably too time intensive to actually get would be % of voters who ultimately read the books.
Eva wrote: "I once heart Brandon Sanderson define the difference between MG and YA as "In MG, adults are just totally useless, whereas in YA, they are an obstacle". 😄 ."
That's a profound over-generalization. A stereotype that helps not at all. The Veronica Roth is much closer to 'right.'
I really liked how the poll was written up, A&A. Good job for including the 'all ages' option and for never once making me wonder what you meant to ask, for never making me wish for a Not Applicable choice, for never making me stumble.
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(I'm not sure I've ever said something more emblematic of the extrovert/introvert dynamic.)
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Read when? I plan to Read All the Books eventually, but sometimes I don’t get to a BOTM until a year or more later.
Allison, I will try to accept praise when I feel I deserve it, but not when it's for a thing YOU did! :DWhoever recently replied with a link in the "Anything else" field, thank you for your kind words! :)
@Melanie, good point, I guess I was just curious if there were voters who don't read the BotM at all
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I can tell you per our poll, yes!
Interesting, I wonder what the motivation is there? I guess taking part in polls is fun?
We should put up a kiddie poll every month, for those who just enjoy clicking on things! :D
Christopher wrote: "Interesting, I wonder what the motivation is there? I guess taking part in polls is fun?"I only take part in the BotM threads if they're for a book I'm interested in or have in my TBR pile, but I do vote in them and put in nominations occasionally
Eva wrote: "perhaps they're a bit intimidated by some adults strongly attacking their favorite books and don't want to defend them, perhaps they just prefer to read but not write stuff themselves."First of all, this is a great discussion! :D Personally, I am not a fan of YA (or younger . . .) and it being in that genre is a general tip off that I will be disgruntled and less likely to read it. BUT, if the library has it, I will typically at *least* give it a shot. It isn't my only turn off. :D (and all that being said, one of my favorite books over the last month was classified by many as YA)
Regarding what Eva wrote . . . this is a HUGE problem . . . we should never attack a book that we do not like. It is absolutely fine to state we don't like and *why* we don't like it, but others should be allowed to love it without being belittled. I've seen that happen *way* too often, and it definitely makes me hold *my* tongue.
I do appreciate the fact that you have included a "ratings" system to see how people qualify things. It matters. I've seen groups totally uprooted because one person thought a book was young adult (and was NOT Polite) and others did not.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone belittling a member for liking something. I can definitely imagine someone who's a bit timid not wanting to share their love for something with people who find that same thing colossally idiotic. But I don't want to curb people's expression of like nor dislike: after all, this is a discussion board in which we get to express our honest opinions. I was just trying to explain why some people who do like a book may not feel like talking about it with people who hate it, but that this unwillingness shouldn't exclude them from being able to vote for the next book. In terms of people voting but not reading the group book: I mean, usually, the majority of votes goes to various losing books, because we have more than two options, right? So most of the time, a book will win that you didn't want to read. It's understandable to vote to try to get your pick to win and to then not participate in the read if something wins you weren't interested in.
But I can also imagine a lot of people voting just because they're thinking about *maybe* participating that month, and then they end up choosing a different read or don't get to it. It's very similar to buying more books than you can actually read, something I definitely do.
Or others voting for a book just because they want to support it, even though they've already read it or don't want to read it themselves but think it would be good for others to read - this kind of voter I don't like personally, it's so patronizing. I hope people won't do that.
I occasionally take part in the nomination process, either by nominating a book (rarely, depends on topic) and/or seconding something. I really don't care about YA books, mostly because I read them for work purposes and at my free time I want to read something else, mostly because I get into reading slumps easily if I can't switch off from my working self. Of course if YA book gets chosen in polls and it's something I can easily get my hands to (meaning it's translated to my language) and maybe can use it for working purposes, I will read it, but for my free time, no.I vote in most of the polls, usually a book I'm willing to read at some point, though maybe not in the month it's *supposed* to be read or even the same year. This is due to the fact that not all the books we choose in this group are avaiable to me via library and I nowadays rarely buy books at all, mostly because e-books ain't my thing and we already have lots of unread books at our house anyways.
Also, I sometimes vote for books I've read already, just because I may want to revisit them ie. I've read the book so long time ago I've forgotten most of it or I just want to expose it to other people. If someone finds this patronizing or whatever, I dont' care. But I never vote for a book I don't want to read at any point, because that would just be useless and that's why I may, at times, not vote in a poll at all. Discussions aren't my cup of tea, because I feel that I usually don't have anything to say or I read the book so late it's pointless to participate anyways.
CMIIW but the polls never say ''by voting, you are committed to read this book at this appointed period, and participate in the appointed thread". People have their own motivations when voting, and sometimes could not get to the books on time, don't have much to say, priorities change, etc etc, do we even want to regulate that? To me it's more like, which book do you want the group to read in such month? Sometimes I joined the discussion, sometimes I did not. Sometimes I forgot to purchase the book while on sale and then I decided not to buy since the prices were still too high. Sometimes my priorities changed. Sometimes I did not have much to say and preferred to enjoy the discussion.
If voting means full-on commitment, it should be stated clearly so people will know what they're getting into (some groups do it). I am not advising that, but if the majority of the group feels strongly about it then I'll follow. What I won't follow if there is a punishment system of the voters who did not read and participate. But, I believe the group will not do it.
I feel this could take a while to discuss, from YA books to voting ;p
No, we would never force people to participate, and we most definitely wouldn't punish anyone for not reading a BOTM at the appointed time! :o
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This is a group for people who love SFF and who want to explore it. There is no wrong way to participate as long as those two things apply, and the participation is done with kindness.
No rules, schemes, or manipulation will ever be undertaken to get around that, so long as we have something to say about it! Our lurkers and more reserved friends are never forgotten whenever Anna and I are discussing things to improve usability or the happiness quotient of our group, because they are participating, just not the same way as some of the rest of us do, and we want to encourage them to keep up the participation that makes them happy, too!
Thank you, Anna and Allison.This is silly but I have just returned from watching Snowpiercer the TV series (which is great) and could not help imagining a unit of AI Voter Police who check people's votes and ask them why they are not participating in the threads should their choice wins. And they have Dalek sounds. But in Murderbot form. Participate....Participate....Participate....
lol Silvana, I can totally see that! :D A bot that DMs everyone who has voted with threats to read the book or else! And don't forget the end of year pop quiz when we find out who remembers minor details from all 24 BOTMs, and of course we'll post the list of shame publicly!
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"You have used 5 hours of voting; however, you have only participated in 3.8 hours of discussion. You have 24 hours from this notification to add 1.2 hours of discussion, or you will be sent to the book mines per section 42 of your contract."
Anna wrote: "lol Silvana, I can totally see that! :D A bot that DMs everyone who has voted with threats to read the book or else! And don't forget the end of year pop quiz when we find out who remembers minor d..."I would totally fail that. I forgot book details right in a few days after I read them.
Allison wrote: "LOL!
"You have used 5 hours of voting; however, you have only participated in 3.8 hours of discussion. You have 24 hours from this notification to add 1.2 hours of discussion, or you will be sent ..."
I'll just spam the thread with cat and dogs pics. Or capybaras! (shoot now I remember I have not bought it)
I would be at the top of the list.Anyone posting capybara content (or owls for Allison) will get extra credit that can be used to make up for gaps in the Quiz of Shame.
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They always remind me of the rodents of unusual size from Princess Bride
LOL! I'd actually find it hilarious if we did a test of shame, haha. And I would do so badly I'd need a whole herd of capybaras... and would still get the owl look of shame:
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Where's Hank? Hank handled our pop quiz last year. Are you taking notes, friend?
Haha! This thread is very entertaining!!
Diane wrote: "Haha! This thread is very entertaining!!"So that's a no to "Should we stop goofing around?" ? :P
Raucous wrote: "If we're going to consider a change I'd like to see fewer grimdark books in the polls - or at least fewer of them winning. But I don't get to tell people how to vote. Doing that indirectly by adding more target age restrictions doesn't feel right to me either."Your post is fairly along the lines of how I felt about this, too. There are a lot of subgenres and even authors, like epic fantasy and Brandon Sanderson, that I, personally, don't care for and whom I feel get far too much attention - but if those books get voted for, I just don't participate. I wouldn't think to ask people to stop voting for things I didn't like.
Snarktastic Sonja wrote: "Regarding what Eva wrote . . . this is a HUGE problem . . . we should never attack a book that we do not like. It is absolutely fine to state we don't like and *why* we don't like it, but others should be allowed to love it without being belittled. I've seen that happen *way* too often, and it definitely makes me hold *my* tongue."
So, I sort of feel like I've been on the receiving end of this - less for liking a book that others didn't like, but for not liking a book that the majority liked. I definitely felt attacked, and eventually just stopped participating in that thread because I felt like my points weren't actually being heard, I was just being shouted down.
There have been some times were people very vocally didn't like something I liked, and I just didn't comment at all.
It's a little bit about being timid, and a little bit about not being worth my energy to enter into the discussion.
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As to the survey, I actually filled it out when it first came out, and then my work filter blocked it and wouldn't send my results, and I haven't gotten around to refilling it out. :-/
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Can you expand on that a bit? Are you saying that a narrow focus in general doesn't lead to good nominations, or that the specific themes we've had didn't work for you?