Shakespeare Fans discussion
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The First Read of 2015: Othello!
Tracy wrote: "Christine wrote: "Tracy wrote: " What money? Am I missing something?..."When Iago keeps telling Rodrigo to 'put money in thy purse'.
Funny, though, I took this to mean that Iago encourages Rod..."
Yes. Rodrigo has been mortgaging his assets to buy jewels for Iago to give to Desdemona. Iago does not give the jewels to Desdemona and Rodrigo begins to suspect and confronts Iago about this.
Candy wrote: " And actually...I have the sense that Shakespeare's thematic issue used in this play with honesty...is that honesty isn't good enough. Honesty isn't really a virtue is it?..."I agree. The issue of honesty has been haunting me since we began reading this play!
Is Iago lying or is he being 'blatantly honest'? And if he is so honest, what good is it when he only uses his honesty to hurt everyone?
Candy wrote: "I'm so curious about the song Desdemona sings....The Willow Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2ngj...
and some opera style versions
Re the Willow song. I think it must be a traditional song and I've read online that there is a written version for lute music of The Willow dated 1583, so predating the play Othello. I think it must have been a known song at the time of Shakespeare that happened to fit in with the story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Qxn...
https://..."
Christine wrote: "Candy wrote: " And actually...I have the sense that Shakespeare's thematic issue used in this play with honesty...is that honesty isn't good enough. Honesty isn't really a virtue is it?..."I agr..."
Aye aye the word Honesty used so much to describe Iago who freely admits to Rodrigo early in the play that he is not honest (no quote at the moment) and that he has always worked to gain for himself in the long run at the expense of his employers; he has no loyalty.
But what about the word Trust, which is not used very much but which is crucial to the story. Othello believes/trusts whatever Iago says and then, seduced by Iago, he begins to distrust Desdemona even though she never lies.
I don't think there is an easy aphorism for this. Honesty is in the eye of the beholder? What do we (as humans) want to believe? And why is it that we are likely to believe in the worst rather than the best?
James wrote: "Tracy wrote: "Christine wrote: "Tracy wrote: " What money? Am I missing something?..."When Iago keeps telling Rodrigo to 'put money in thy purse'.
Funny, though, I took this to mean that Iago ..."
Ah, I hadn't read that far yet..now i see.
James wrote: "What do we (as humans) want to believe? And why is it that we are likely to believe in the worst rather than the best? ..."Ahhh that is IT! That is the big puropse of this play. (One of the big purposes, anyway.) Shakespeare asks: Why are we so likely to believe the worst -- see where it gets everybody? -- and then it is a good idea to change those beliefs!
Christine wrote: "James wrote: "What do we (as humans) want to believe? And why is it that we are likely to believe in the worst rather than the best? ..."Ahhh that is IT! That is the big puropse of this play. (..."
Yeah, that's a good insight!
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Could there be that underlying many of our general ideas of the play....that there is a narrative of racism, how does skin colour play out in this play....what are the layers of prejudice or "thorns" portrayed here?
Lea began this whole thread topic as discussion leader saying she was preparing for a tangential research project into the presence of Blacks in Othello.
I hope we have some insights and share on this level....or did we learn anything? Lea, did this reading help in any way to inform your research?
And then...it's really hard for me to not feel that whatever prejudices we have as humans, and however we split ourselves....in the big picture, to maintain and restore order then men band in trust and dismiss women. What ever bias people may or may not have had...the universal bond between men is with each other. Marriage is most definitely on a lower value of trust than military or maleness.
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David Mamet
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Any kind of dismissal of a group or person as "other" is the cause of imbalance or tragedy (loss)
Candy wrote: " That this idea of polarizing and split and divide humans do in their competitive drives....and then restoration by dismissal....is the tragedy. I feel as if Shakespeare has contracted, with the intent to reveal this incredible device..."I think you are on to something there, Candy! It is definitely about polarization. So many groups are divided throughout the play -- white/black - men/women - parent/child - rich/poor - military/civilian - and with a background of war itself. It is a fascinating study in human nature. I'd say we learn a lot about the devastating effects of all this.
Candy wrote: "It's hard not to think that this is an example of "bros before hos"Could there be that underlying many of our general ideas of the play....that there is a narrative of racism, how does skin colou..."
So much to say to Candy's posts! First, yes, the discussion has been informative for me. I'm not sure I learned anything *new* about Blacks in Tudor times or about racism in general, but the discussion did reinforce my thoughts about how perception matters, about how things can be direct or often very, very subtle. That overall, racism and simply relations between people is such a huge, complex topic!
But onto the bros before hos thing...well... not to plug or anything, but my recently published novel, "The Other Shakespeare", was in large part about how women are often the lesser creatures in men's minds. And many reviewers of my book (there are a lot more on Amazon than here on goodreads) have pointed out how what held in Shakespearean times is, unfortunately, remarkable relevant still today. Don't get me started!
I don't think ALL men would put bros before hos, so to speak, but I do think that kind of mentality may be more prevalent in the military, which is where many of the characters in Othello are centered...
It is very interesting, the whole idea. Bros before hos -- but then Desdemona turns out NOT to be a ho -- in fact she turns out to be the best friend Othello ever had. But by then it is too late, too bad. So Shakespeare again makes a very enlightened and modern point about women. Way ahead of his time and very radical.
Lea your book looks fascinating!
Candy wrote: ""Women have, in men's minds, such a low place on the social ladder ... that it's useless to define yourself in terms of a woman. What men need is men's approval."David Mamet"
AH, sad indeed! I was thinking of this whole play in terms of Elizabeth's England... The Privy Council spent years trying to get Elizabeth married off, in order to produce an heir (because everyone knows her 'real' job was baby-maker and NOT queen, eh?)
I can just see Lord Burghley and the Council in this 'bros before hos' mentality, behind Elizabeth's back. Well she showed them, didn't she? Haha. Anyway it is all really thought provoking.
Actually, Elizabeth I died childless, which allowed James VI of Scotland to become James I of England and briefly unite the kingdoms. The formal union would not take place until the Act of Union in 1707. Scottish voters defeated a referendum in 2014 that would have ended the union.
Joseph wrote: "Actually, Elizabeth I died childless..."Yes, she died childless, but I was not referring to terms in which Scotland and England could unite, I was referring to the idea that Elizabeth was able to restore peace, prosperity and national pride to England after her predecessors had left the country in ruins. (And the fact that she did so as a single woman, against the wishes of the Privy Council.)
Most likely Elizabeth would not have approved of the reign of James I (given her tumultuous relationship with his mother.) After the Stuarts took over, the country went into Civil War. That was her detriment at not having declared a succession.
Still, all things considered, the reign of Elizabeth I should be considered a golden age, probably one of the strongest monarchies in the history of England.
Christine wrote: "Joseph wrote: "Actually, Elizabeth I died childless..."Yes, she died childless, but I was not referring to terms in which Scotland and England could unite, I was referring to the idea that Elizab..."
It's my understanding that Elizabeth actually brought James to her court as a child, which is why he was raised Protestant rather than Catholic like his mother. She intended him as her successor. He was so much under her sway that he gave Elizabeth his blessing to have his mother beheaded for treason. He was told she murdered his father, you see. And England was already centuries deep in civil war; it was the beauty of Elizabeth's brand of tolerance, wishy-washy deference to her male advisors, and wit that kept Shakespeare's days as stable as they were. Elizabeth was brilliant when imprisoned by Catholic mad sister Mary and her bloody husband Phillip the II: when asked if she was Catholic or Protestant, she wisely said "I owe my allegiance only to God." (BTW, disclaimer--I was raised Catholic and am a descendant even of British Catholics who left for America over all this turmoil.)
So, I really have a love-hate relationship with that final scene in Act V. I love the parity of the lines "Put out the light," and "then put out the light.." It really makes the scene vivid in my mind, and I find myself repeating those lines a thousand different ways for a thousand different reasons in my life. Of course, they reek of triple, possibly even quadruple meanings. What I dislike is Othello's righteous man indignation that it is his place to serve as jury and executioner--what an asshole--pardon my French.
But.."It is the cause,it is the cause, oh my soul.." just burns itself indelibly into literary history.
Tracy wrote: " It's my understanding that Elizabeth actually brought James to her court as a child, which is why he was raised Protestant rather than Catholic like his mother. She intended him as her successor..."The succession of James VI was murky at best. It was never provisioned directly by Elizabeth. He was considered the 'most likely' candidate due to his Tudor bloodline and was favored by Robert Cecil and the Privy Council. Elizabeth, however, never signed any document which would have directly left the succession to James.
http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/El...
Elizabeth and James never actually met in person. They had established a correspondence which was considered friendly and may have indicated Elizabeth's plans for him. James, however, DID petition Elizabeth to spare the life of his mother.
http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/1/7777...
Christine wrote: "Tracy wrote: " It's my understanding that Elizabeth actually brought James to her court as a child, which is why he was raised Protestant rather than Catholic like his mother. She intended him as h..."I'm not sure I read these documents in the same way you see them.. I see several hints that there was a quasi-attempt at mother/son relationship between James and Eliz. (vacillating, yes with the politics of the thing) but enough to prove there was some sort of regular discussion of this relationship. I doubt James was literally bottle-fed by Elizabeth, but she undertook his education, religious upbringing, etc., and this correspondence seems to confirm her interest in this oversight, even if the papers were never formally drawn.
And, I think his blasé point of view, after the fact of his mother's death, and glossing Elizabeth's demurring of her consent to it, is what leads some to a reading that, although he may have written a political objection to the execution, his final behavior was rather cold and indifferent--making his previous "objection" look rather calculated and political.
Tracy wrote: " I'm not sure I read these documents in the same way you see them.. I see several hints that there was a quasi-attempt at mother/son relationship between James and Eliz..."That could perhaps be. History is always up for endless interpretation.
My point was about Elizabeth being single and childless, which I believe did not take away from her status as a great ruler (taking into consideration achievements like military leadership, prosperity, etc.) The reign of James caused unrest. Elizabeth may have guessed that people would not be entirely happy with the Stuarts. I am surmising that was the reason she would never formally declare James as the next King, when it would have been quite simple to do so.
Christine wrote: "Tracy wrote: " I'm not sure I read these documents in the same way you see them.. I see several hints that there was a quasi-attempt at mother/son relationship between James and Eliz..."That coul..."
Christine, I got your point. I'm not even sure how Joseph misinterpreted it. From everything I've read, most historians agree that Elizabeth I was a master. A master at keeping herself single, a master at holding power, a master at supporting the arts (including Shakespeare!), and more.
Have you ever been asked that question, if you could pick any time period to visit, what would it be? (To visit, mind you, not live). I always pick the time during Elizabeth I's reign when Shakespeare was giving performances at court. I would have LOVED to have gone to one of those...
Lea wrote: " Have you ever been asked that question, if you could pick any time period to visit, what would it be? (To visit, mind you, not live). I always pick the time during Elizabeth I's reign when Shakespeare was giving performances at court..."Lea, I totally agree! I have always wanted to visit the period of Elizabeth's reign. Let's time travel, haha :D
Elizabeth was definitely the 'master' of so many things. A great book (if you have not already read it) is: The Life of Elizabeth I
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I prefer the idea that shakespeare was really still a catholic....who found a way to sneak his folk background and mythologies, including the magic (and paganism) that Catholicism has archived for us. I believe he stopped writing tragedies after james became king...because the witch was dead. He didn't have to write tragedies anymore.
This has been another great group read. Lea thanks for leading us through Othello...and I hope you'll consider leading another read in the future.
Candy wrote: "Oooh....that's a tough question about what time would I wNt to travel to visit. I think I would want to be there....in Shakespeare's time, to see him his actors....but I would choose after Elizabet..."What about Macbeth? That is classified as a tragedy. Granted, he wrote it in tribute to King James, who was really into witches and magic and the supernatural. It was also set in Scotland, where King James was also King James VI. In the end, Macbeth is killed. If that's not a tragedy, I don't know what is.
Candy wrote: "Oooh....that's a tough question about what time would I wNt to travel to visit. I think I would want to be there....in Shakespeare's time, to see him his actors....but I would choose after Elizabet..."Thanks Candy. I really enjoyed leading the group - indeed, I probably would be willing to do it again!
And thank you for organizing all the readings and such.
Candy wrote: " I prefer the idea that shakespeare was really still a catholic...."Candy, I think that is true, and increasingly, historians have been finding evidence to indcate that Shakespeare was indeed, a 'secret' Catholic.
http://shakespeare.about.com/od/shake...
http://ncronline.org/news/art-media/e...
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainm...
A lot of the Tragedies are dated after the death of Elizabeth. Macbeth, I believe, was written almost specifically as a political tool for King James because of his witch paranoia.1603-04 - Othello
1604-07 - Timon of Athens
1605-08 - King Lear
1606 - Macbeth
1606-07 - Antony and Cleopatra
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Its so funny....because I had thought that Shakespeare had died really shortly after her rule. I better hit the history books. Thanks Joseph and Christine for being so patient with me....LOL
However....I am from the camp that believes he was a secret Catholic. I had always had the impression that Kind James was "nice"...as opposed to the dictator Elizabeth. Don't get me wrong, I am fascinated by Elizabeth...)and love those Cate Blanchett movies) but I think she was a terrible leader.
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Candy wrote: "...However....I am from the camp that believes he was a secret Catholic. ..."
I think a lot of Hamlet's questions are a covert discussion of the religious difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.
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Shakespeare spent so much time thinking and writing about people responding to historical events. It was only 65 years before Shakespeare wrote Hamlet that Henry VIII declared himself the head of the English Church. The culture and beliefs of millions of people dating back to the Roman era were changed back and forth by royal command and deadly consequences. Shakespeare couldn't write about any of it openly but I think he used Hamlet's questions about life, death and everything to protest the hidden turmoil in many hearts and minds, especially his own.
night music -- bring on the clowns ♫ wrote: "Shakespeare spent so much time thinking and writing about people responding to historical events...."Night Music, that is so true! Not only with Hamlet but with MANY of his works, tragedies and comedies alike. His lifetime must have been extremely tumultuous, not only with the flipping of religions but also with the transition from medieval to early modern culture, etc.
Candy wrote: "Gee...maybe there is an argument to be made that shakespeare was free to write those tragedies because she was dead LOL"Candy, that is partially true! Some people think that Anthony and Cleopatra could only be performed AFTER her death because it depicted the death of the great queen Cleopatra -- and there would be inevitable similarities. (Also it was High Treason to even insinuate the death of a current reigning monarch in any way, plays included!)
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Ah I didn't know one couldn't write the death of a monarch Christine. Weird.
I think the 'powers that be' decided what was acceptable and what was not. Shakespeare got away with writing about the death of a Scottish king in MacBeth -- but also that play was promoting King James' propaganda about witch hunts, and reportedly James loved it. So it was a slippery slope! But in general, the death of a monarch was really a dangerous subject for a playwright.
King Henry VI is killed onstage in the tower by Richard York in Henry VI Part 3.King Richard II is killed offstage in his play.
King Richard III is killed onstage in battle in his play.
That is true, but those Kings were Plantagenet/ York/ and Lancaster dynasties, NOT Tudor. Some historians believe Richard III was propoganda for the Tudors.Actually, Richard II WAS banned and later the Earl of Essex paid a lot of money for the troupe to revive it, (against Elizabeth's wishes.) The play was also used as propaganda... as Essex wanted to place himself in line for succession. Elizabeth beheaded him for it.
Like I said, the 'powers that be' decided what was acceptable, and writing about the death of Monarchs was always a slippery slope.
Duncan in MacBeth is also killed offstage
According to Art Made Tongue-Tied by Authority: Elizabethan and Jacobean Dramatic Censorship, it was the deposition scene in Richard II that was censored not the scene reporting his murder in the tower.The Henry IV plays were censored to underplay the Archbishop of York's involvement and to cut passages dealing with the aims, grievances and strategies of the rebels.
Oh yes, censorship certainly existed!My original point was in response to Candy's comment about the tragedies that were produced after Elizabeth's death. I am suggesting that Antony and Cleopatra may have been postponed (both in writing and production) -- until after Elizabeth's death -- due to the fact that it depicted the death of a great queen. I do not have any documented proof of this, it is just a thought/ speculation/ possibility -- totally open to discussion.
Censorship certainly existed both in Elizabethan and Jacobean England and beyond... and beyond... All of it left to the discretion of kings, councils, etc.
Oh Othello, Othello, let's get back to Othello though our time is up and some are on to Twelfthe Night now. I want to summarize my experience with reading and discussing Othello these last 6 weeks.There were some personal revelations for me as a result of this reading. I found out that Othello was/is my mother's favorite Shakespeare play. She attended 3 performancees of it in one week at the age 15, loving it so, and decided to go to drama school, which she did. Somehow I look at my mother differently now; in a good way.
On a completely different note about something that seems to happen to me every time I have read Shakespeare these last 2 years with the discussion group; a line or a word or group of words links to something in my life, or something that I have knowledge of, albeit often in a superficial way. There are 2 instances that I will tell you about that I noted in Othello.
The first is the line by Othello "Full of pride pomp and circumstance". I'm guessing that these words are all Shakespeare; the Pomp and Circumstance now the name of a piece of classical music. By who? That was amusing to notice.
But something else spoken by Othello reminded me of one of my favorite films ever, and my first screen crush too. I loved Hayley Mills when I was a child and a young teen and I especially loved the film starring Hayley Mills and a young Alan Bates called Whistle Down the Wind; but I never knew anything about the name of the film. Has anyone else seen this film?
The lines relating to this film are from when Othello first decides to doubt Desdemona and talks to himself, comparing Desdemona to a tamed hunting falcon; which is interesting enough in itself.
Othello: "Though that her jesses were my dear heart-strings,
I'd whistle her down the wind, to prey at fortune'.
Heavy stuff!
To move on. One necessarily casts about for reflections in life and contemporary arts of the Shakespeare one is reading (well I do anyway). And what did I find but an Oscar winning 1948 film by George Cukor called A Double Life. I watched this film with my dear mother when I had finished all of our reading of Othello. It's a good'un – chocablock full of lines from Othello, and because I'd just been reading the play I was able to pick up on most of them.
The plot evolves around an actor (Ronald Colman) who plays Othello in a long running production (2 years) whose person becomes tragically taken over by the character Othello. Shelley Winters plays an interesting supporting role as Desdemona number 2.
Sadly for me anyway, there is little of Iago in this movie. The reading of the play for me has been so much about him that I have become an apologist for Iago. And I have found a novel, recently published, called I, Iago by Nicolle Galland. The opening line is,
"They called me 'honest Iago' from an early age, but in Venice, this is not a compliment".
Has anyone heard of this or read it? I've only read the first page.
Something that Candy said suggesting a homo-erotic element between Iago and Othello was confirmed to me last week when my visiting brother said that in the 1930s, Lawrence Olivier, then the right age to play Iago, played it in just this way. Eh!
Almost finally, my interest in Iago has brought me to a better understanding of what Machiavelli was about; not 'Machiavellian' the adjective but Machiavelli the human being, who I have now discovered was a Renaisance of man of many parts. One of these parts was that he was a Republican. He wanted to replace the old social order with one based on merit; which is something that Shakespeare is angling at darkly in this play via Iago.
So thank you everyone in this discussion group. It has been more than a pleasure, it has been inspiring for me. (Even though I hated most of Act V).
James -- such interesting points! I am glad you got so much out of the read! I, too, noticed 'Pomp and Circumstance' when I read it -- I am familiar with the composition as a graduation march, but apparently they were written as a series of marches, including military. According to Wiki they were composed by Sir Edward Elgar.
I love your new discoveries about your Mom! (My father used to say 'Methinks thou protesteth too loudly' -- usually when he'd catch me in some weasely behavior. Much later I realized this was his re-phrasing from Hamlet "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". It was quite interesting to find out my Dad was a Hamlet fan!)
I have seen the book 'I Iago' but never read it. Interesting how Shakespeare's phrases come up time and time again in movies, etc.
Reading Othello with this group has been a great experience for me, too.
Thanks for that Christine. Not surprised that it's Elgar. Aye, re parents quoting Shakespeare; when I asked mhy mother for a favorite line from Othello she immediately and Shakespeareanly spake.
"Reputation, reputation, reputation! I have lost my reputation ....."
I wonder which lines will stay with me? You?
'Green-eyed monster' and 'wear my heart upon my sleeve' are two that will stay with me -- and I did not know they were from Shakespeare!
I already know, cos it's already stuck for years: "Put out the light, and then , put out the light."
Iago: "Put money in thy purse"Othello: "Keep up your bright swords or the dew will rust them"
Othello: "Put out the light, and then put out the light:
If I quench thee, thou flaming minister,
I can again thy former light restore,
Should I repent me: but once put out thy light,
Thou cunning’st pattern of excelling nature,
I know not where is that Promethean heat
That can thy light relume."
Desdemona: "That death's unnatural that kills for loving."
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I just watched the episode with Othello...in Shakespeare Uncovered. Wow, what a great feeling to watch it so closely to our group read.
The line that stood out for me in Othello was "put out the light, and then put out the light"
In the BBc program...the clip shown with that line was Orson Welles...and it was very upsetting. The camera work highlighted the candle going out...then him reflecting on her light going out.
And we find of course, that Othellos light goes out too after he kills Desdemona. She was the lightness to him. As a soldier and militia man he had to do what all soldiers do and find a way to compartmentalize his feelings, his emotions and push them and rationalize in order to kill.
The weakness he seemed to have is that his compartmentalization was part of his vulnerability to be able to actually have faith and respect for his feelings of love. He would take violence over trusting emotions.
I think this manner in which we program soldiers is partly responsible for these two male characters not really being able to actually know each other.
I admire the attempt give Iago a kind of Machiavellian character...sadly, I feel he is someone who does not understand happiness. I am not s sure he is as complex as other people. I think he is broken. Broken spiritually Medically we might call him a sociopath/psychopath...incapable of emotions and empathy.
I believe his "honesty" is actually as sign of his personality problem. Almost like how some people who are delightfully honest in their innocence...(perhaps we could compare the innocence of Desdemoa?) and Iago...is broken because his honesty is a glitch. Like the glitch of a child who is honest. Or a person with autism has the stereotype of saying things not socially appropriate but honest.
honest is not a good thing. Being honest because of ones excellent character is good and healthy. But the honesty of a psychopath, or a child is something we qualify....we approach with caution. We hope to teach a child the nuance of being diplomatic versus honest.
James, I am sure you can see the difference between being honest and being diplomatic? And this difference is critical to recognizing danger or inappropriateness, no?
Do I feel sorry for Iago...yes, as I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't understand empathy and true happiness and friendship.
Othello was not versed in emotions. He was new to relationships and love.
I really enjoyed the interviews with a psychologist, Germaine Greer, Gail pastor on the BBC special. I highly recommend catching it...
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/shakespeare-u...
Shakespeare Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Art Made Tongue-Tied By Authority: Elizabethan and Jacobean Dramatic Censorship (other topics)The Life of Elizabeth I (other topics)
Paradise Lost (other topics)
The Willow Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2ngj...
and some opera style versions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Qxn...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMDa0...