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The First Read of 2015: Othello!
Cleo wrote: "Joseph wrote: "Given some of the previous comments, there may be some racial prejudices at work here. Iago was told by a black man that he wouldn't get the promotion. He might have a personal incen..."I've been doing some research on Blacks in England in Tudor times, and I've still got more reading to go, but so far my impression is that Blacks were not the most discriminated against minority in England. At all. It sucked more to be Spanish, apparently. So Cleo's (and the EdX class') interpretation that it isn't about racial prejudice, per se, I would say fits the times. Blacks were a minority, certainly, but slavery did not exist in England at this time and Blacks were found in all levels of society. There were unique, sure, and so you could pick on a Black for having a different color. But racial animosity as we understand it today, from the historians that I am currently reading that have gotten PhDs on this topic, didn't exist in England then.
Finally (and I'll stop posting after this), I finished the third act today and I have a question for the group: What is up with Emilia? I really don't get her or her motivations. WHY does she turn on Desdemona and do such a despicible thing - they are supposed to be friends, right? And I get that Iago is her husband, but still. Does anyone have any insight for me on Emilia and why she does what she does (i.e. take the handkerchief and give it to Iago)?
Lea wrote: "So Cleo's (and the EdX class') interpretation that it isn't about racial prejudice, per se, I would say fits the times. Blacks were a minority, certainly, but slavery did not exist in England at this time and Blacks were found in all levels of society. ..."And just to clarify, I'm not saying there generally wasn't prejudice (I don't know enough about it to make any determination either way), just that there certainly appears to be no prejudice in this particular case/play drawing from evidence (or lack of it) in the text.
Lea wrote: "Finally (and I'll stop posting after this), I finished the third act today and I have a question for the group: What is up with Emilia? I really don't get her or her motivations. WHY does she tu..."I think while she may think Iago is plotting something, she has no idea as to the extent he'll go. So far he's completely tricked everyone as to his nature, so I'm sure his wife has been tricked to a certain extent as well. It's a good question though.
Emilia and the hankerchief: but she doesn't know the uses to which it's to be put. It seems a trifle. Nothing despicable. Although I too find her unguessable on Iago: I just shake my head and go, married people, you know? Never felt I understood Emilia, except I must like her for her loyalty to Desdemona (and the end).
Hi Everyone! :) I just found this group a few days ago, hope no one minds me jumping in late. Othello is such a fascinating and layered play, I look forward to these discussions!
Lea wrote: "Finally (and I'll stop posting after this), I finished the third act today and I have a question for the group: What is up with Emilia? I really don't get her or her motivations. WHY does she tu..."Hi Lea. Great question!
I think Emilia is one of the most pivotal characters in the play. If we pay close attention to the exchanges between Emilia and Iago in the previous Acts, we see the mistrust and push-pull of their relationship. In fact, it is almost as if Iago accuses Emilia of adultery (or at least something uncouth and deceptive) in Act 2 -- when Cassio kisses her as a polite greeting.
Iago says to Emilia (and possibly referring to women in general): "Come on, come on; you are pictures out of doors, Bells in your parlors, wild-cats in your kitchens,Saints m your injuries, devils being offended,Players in your housewifery, and housewives' in your beds."
Desdemona jumps in: "O, fie upon thee, slanderer!"
Iago gives the nasty and telling reply: "Nay, it is true, or else I am a Turk:
You rise to play and go to bed to work."
Emilia replies: "You shall not write my praise."
Iago tells her: "No, let me not."
In Act 3 Emilia is probably hoping to gain favor or repair the relationship. The handkerchief is Emilia's last ditch effort. And, as Bryn mentions, to Emilia the handkerfchief at this point is only a trifle, not a betrayal.
Emilia says: "My wayward husband hath a hundred times
Woo'd me to steal it; ... what he will do with it
Heaven knows, not I; I nothing but to please his fantasy..."
It is interesting also to speculate about whether or not Emilia actually HAS been unfaithful. If she has, maybe she feels guilty and is trying to redeem herself by letting him have the handkerchief.
Cleo wrote: "Lea wrote: "So Cleo's (and the EdX class') interpretation that it isn't about racial prejudice, per se, I would say fits the times. Blacks were a minority, certainly, but slavery did not exist in E..."Cleo - yes, me too, I'm definitely not saying there wasn't prejudice in Tudor times. I'm just saying things were different then, so we do have to be careful viewing the past through today's eyes and the definitions of today's prejudices...
Christine wrote: "Lea wrote: "Finally (and I'll stop posting after this), I finished the third act today and I have a question for the group: What is up with Emilia? I really don't get her or her motivations. WHY..."Welcome to the group Christine!
Hi Cleo. I have a few lines from the text that for me point to racism as being one of the themes that Shakespeare is exploring in this play.Iago declares several times, " I hate the Moor!" He doesn't say 'Othello' he says 'the Moor'. And throughout there is often use of the descriptive 'the moor' instead of the name Othello.
Brabantio the father of Desdemona is the one most put out that his daughter has eloped with 'the Moor'; not Othello the most famous and revered military man in Venice.
In act 1 scene 2 Brabantio rants about Othello having 'enchanted' Desdemona and 'practis'd on her with foul charms; abused her delicate youth with drugs or minerals...'.
And then to finish off the scene Brabantio again:
"For if such actions may have passage free,
Bond-slaves and pagans shall our statesmen be".
I agree with Cleo that Iago uses Othello's race as a tool to inflame situations (to Iago's own ends) but that is because Othello's 'colour' is so important.
Shakespeare to my mind has cleverly taken the issue out of England to 'enlightened' Venice where a Moor might even be rich, respected, highly skilled military man and a recognized leader who is loved by all ranks of people; and who may woo a well raised European lass and elope with her and marry her without censure (as Brabantio bows to the will of his peers when they are persuaded of Othello's best intentions). Surely this is something that would never have happened in England at the time of Shakespeare. The chilling fact is that this play was performed in black face for the next 400 years; well past the middle of the 20th century. to me that says it all.
And yet my mother at the age of 15 was enthralled by the play at the Theater Royal in Bath England WWII and attended the play 3 times in one week! And to this day she sees Othello as a love story. But I cannot thus far see it as mostly a love story.
Oh yes and thanks to those talking about reading out loud when reading a play. It only makes sense and I don't know why I haven't been doing it.
Tina wrote: "I am using the archive of the EdX Shakespeare course that Everyman posted for a reference. The professor explained that Iago's jealousy and hatred of Othello comes not only from being passed over..."
Iago may well be piqued that there has been a rumour about that Othello had been with his wife, but really he is pleased to have more ammunition to fire against Othello.In his own words:
"But I for mere suspicion in that kind,
Will do as if for surety". He will use the rumour and treat it as a fact for his argument.
Bryn wrote: "Lea wrote: "I have a question for everyone: does anyone read these play out loud?"
Yes!!! and once discovered, it's impossible to sit quietly and read a play. I have to walk about and act it out."
Brabantio responds to Desdemona's explanation of her love for Othello with the following linesGod be wi' you! I have done.
Please it your grace, on to the state-affairs:
I had rather to adopt a child than get it.
Come hither, Moor:
I here do give thee that with all my heart
Which, but thou hast already, with all my heart
I would keep from thee. For your sake, jewel,
I am glad at soul I have no other child:
For thy escape would teach me tyranny,
To hang clogs on them. I have done, my lord.
What do these two lines mean?
1.I had rather to adopt a child than get it.
2.For thy escape would teach me tyranny,
1. He's bothered that his own blood hs acted in this way, an adopted child wouldn't hurt so bad. "Get" is short for Beget--as in father.2. If Desdemona had a sibling, he/she would have been treated more tightly as a result of Desdemona's actions.
The whole speech is Brabaantio saying, "I'm not happy with this, but since you're already married, I'll just live with it."
Does he protest too little? It strikes me that Iago too is pretty casual about his wife sleeping with the Moor. How did Othello and Desdemona get married? It couldn't have been much of ceremony. What's fascinating is that one major source for Othello is 1001 Arabian Nights, specifically "The Tale of Three Apples." The excerpt below (I hope this hasn't already been covered) reveals several elements that Shakespeare no doubt was playing with.now to be found save in the garden of the Commander of the Faithful at Bassorah, where the gardener keepeth it for the Caliph's eating. I returned to my house troubled by my ill-success; and my love for my wife and my affection moved me to undertake the journey. So I gat me ready and set out and travelled fifteen days and nights, going and coming, and brought her three apples which I bought from the gardener for three dinars. But when I went in to my wife and set them before her, she took no pleasure in them and let them lie by her side; for her weakness and fever had increased on her and her malady lasted without abating ten days, after which time she began to recover health. So I left my house and betaking me to my shop sat there buying and selling; and about midday behold, a great ugly black slave, long as a lance and broad as a bench, passed by my shop holding in hand one of the three apples wherewith he was playing. Quoth I:—O my good slave, tell me whence thou tookest that apple, that I may get the like of it? He laughed and answered:—I got it from my mistress, for I had been absent and on my return I found her lying ill with three apples by her side, and she said to me:—My horned wittol of a husband made a journey for them to Bassorah and bought them for three dinars. So I ate and drank with her and took this one from her.[6] When I heard such words from the slave, O Commander of the Faithful, the world grew black before my face, and I arose and locked up my shop and went home beside myself for excess of rage. I looked for the apples and finding only two of the three asked my wife:—O my cousin, where is the third apple?; and raising her head languidly she answered:—I wot not, O son of my uncle, where 'tis gone! This convinced me that the slave had spoken the truth, so I took a knife and coming behind her got upon her breast without a word said and cut her throat. Then I hewed off her head and her limbs in pieces and, wrapping her in her mantilla and a rag of carpet, hurriedly sewed up the whole which I set in a chest and, locking it tight, loaded
6^ It is supposed that slaves cannot help telling these fatal lies. Arab story-books are full of ancient and modern instances and some have become "Joe Millers." Moreover it is held unworthy of a free-born man to take over-notice of these servile villanies; hence the scoundrel in the story escapes unpunished. I have already noticed the predilection of debauched women for these "skunks of the human race;" and the young man in the text evidently suspected that his wife had passed herself this "little caprice." The excuse which the Caliph would find for him is the pundonor shown in killing one he loved so fondly.
p.192[edit]
it on my he-mule and threw it into the Tigris with my own hands. So Allah upon thee, O Commander of the Faithful, make haste to hang me, as I fear lest she appeal for vengeance on Resurrection Day. For, when I had thrown her into the river and none knew aught of it, as I went back home I found my eldest son crying and yet he knew naught of what I had done with his mother. I asked him:—What hath made thee weep, my boy?; and he answered:—I took one of the three apples which were by my mammy and went down into the lane to play with my brethren when behold, a big long black slave snatched it from my hand and said, Whence hadst thou this? Quoth I, My father travelled far for it, and brought it from Bassorah for my mother who was ill and two other apples for which he paid three ducats. He took no heed of my words and I asked for the apple a second and a third time, but he cuffed me and kicked me and went off with it. I was afraid lest my mother should swinge me on account of the apple, so for fear of her I went with my brother outside the city and stayed there till evening closed in upon us; and indeed I am in fear of her; and now by Allah, O my father, say nothing to her of this or it may add to her ailment! When I heard what my child said I knew that the slave was he who had foully slandered my wife, the daughter of my uncle, and was certified that I had slain her wrongfully. So I wept with exceeding weeping and presently this old man, my paternal uncle and her father, came in; and I told him what had happened and he sat down by my side and wept and we ceased not weeping till midnight. We have kept up mourning for her these last five days and we lamented her in the deepest sorrow for that she was unjustly done to die. This came from the gratuitous lying of the slave, the blackamoor, and this was the manner of my killing her; so I conjure thee, by the honour of thine ancestors, make haste to kill me and do her justice upon me, as there is no living for me after her!" The Caliph marvelled at his words and said, "By Allah, the young man is excusable: I will hang none but the accursed slave and I will do a deed which shall comfort the ill-at-ease and suffering, and which shall please the All-glorious King."—
Alex wrote: "Does he protest too little? It strikes me that Iago too is pretty casual about his wife sleeping with the Moor. How did Othello and Desdemona get married? It couldn't have been much of ceremony. Wh..."There's a similar story in the Canterbury Tales by way of Ovid called something like "Why the Crow is Black."
I have always thought that Iago just sort of constantly roots around for reasons to be suspicious and dislike others. Is there anyone in the play he does like? It's just some bug in his system, and he uses what he possibly makes up from his own negative nature to rationalize and justify his own actions.
Alex, thanks for the Arabian Nights story. I had never read that. It keeps coming back to the 'green-eyed monster' jealousy, doesn't it? That combined with gossip and suggestion run amok.
Christine wrote: "Alex, thanks for the Arabian Nights story. I had never read that. It keeps coming back to the 'green-eyed monster' jealousy, doesn't it? That combined with gossip and suggestion run amok."
And why do the "suggestions run amok" work? Why do Iago's insinuations work on Othello? They only can if Othello is a little bit insecure. And why might he be insecure? He shouldn't be - he is clearly capable and a proven military hero. Maybe he is a tad insecure because he is Black, and racism has drilled into him that Blacks are lesser? Racism today often works in such subtle, insidious ways.
Now it could also be simply that Othello is insecure, as a personality trait (Whites are sometimes insecure of course). But notice how Cassio doesn't fall for Iago's insinuations. Only Othello does. The question is: Why is Othello insecure enough to fall for Iago's machinations?
Lea wrote: "Christine wrote: "Alex, thanks for the Arabian Nights story. I had never read that. It keeps coming back to the 'green-eyed monster' jealousy, doesn't it? That combined with gossip and suggestion..."
I have thought long about the insecurities of Othello in this play, and if they are realistic given who he is. It somehow seems to me that race in this play, although part of the fabric, doesn't quite feel as negative then as now-- especially in America with our slavery legacy and it's aftermath. I don't feel like Othello carries the same burdens as a modern black man, somehow.
So, it occurred to me that Othello's insecurity may have more to do with differences in age, and perhaps a sort of self-awareness that he is not your typical ladies man. He knows their lifestyle will keep them apart often, and that Desdmona may grow tired of war-story induced love. isn't Desdemona barely out of her teens? He must easily imagine her attraction to a younger romance.
James wrote: "Hi Cleo. I have a few lines from the text that for me point to racism as being one of the themes that Shakespeare is exploring in this play.Iago declares several times, " I hate the Moor!" He does..."
Argh! Goodreads ate my very long comment so I'll try to summarize what I originally wrote:
Thanks, James, for all the explanations and including the quotes. I can understand your points ..... we discussed many of them in class. I still think that Othello's "blackness" is not an issue. Iago disparages him by using it (black ram tupping white ewe) because it suits his purpose but again, Iago's hatred is pretty universal and I don't think he hates Othello because he's black. As for Brabantio, he is angry with Othello not because of his skin colour (previously he'd invited him to his house and allowed his daughter into his company) but because he eloped with her without anyone's knowledge. That is respectful behaviour and Brabantio has every right to be angry. What was Othello (and Desdemona for that matter) thinking? It is perhaps the first evidence we have for Othello viewing himself as an outsider.
I think the issue of Othello being different is more related to his race instead of his blackness. Does that make sense? He is somewhat of an outsider no matter how respected he is, but just like a Spaniard or a Greek or a Englishman would be an outsider. He's not Venetian and therefore is not truly one of them.
I still don't understand the issue of having Othello perform with a blackened face. In performance I think it's needed for the simple fact that it conveys his "otherness". This otherness, I believe, is an issue for Othello, although I'm still not sure how much of an issue it is for others; they respond to Othello's actions and not his appearance.
I couldn't see the theme of this play being about love either, although Desdemona's devotion may be classified as that. But to me, it's more about jealousy and manipulation.
Cleo wrote: "James wrote: "Hi Cleo. I have a few lines from the text that for me point to racism as being one of the themes that Shakespeare is exploring in this play.Iago declares several times, " I hate the ..."
Cleo, but what you describe IS racism. It is possible Iago may have been mad at Othello primarily for other reasons, but he chooses to express this anger with derogatory descriptions of Othello's blackness. That IS racism; what else would you call it?
If somebody called me a cheap Jew because they were actually jealous of my smarts in business, that's still anti-Semitism.
Lea wrote: "The question is: Why is Othello insecure enough to fall for Iago's machinations? "Great question, Lea. I think this is the crux of the story and I'm not sure it can ever fully be explained. On the surface, it's puzzling. Why does Othello, who is a famed military commander, one who is used to having control of men and certainly insights into their character, fall prey to such (sometimes not so carefully concealed) manipulation from Iago? My guess is that, as you and Tracy mentioned, he has deep insecurities with regard to Desdemona and possibly also his "otherness". We can surmise he feels that their marriage must be kept secret because he thinks that he won't be accepted by the Venetian society. He is so quick to distrust Desdemona based on only Iago's opinion, even though he at one point says he requires "ocular proof". He is older than her and though he is a confident and respected military commander, I completely question his abilities as a husband, as it appears, does he.
Lea wrote: "Cleo, but what you describe IS racism. It is possible Iago may have been mad at Othello primarily for other reasons, but he chooses to express this anger with derogatory descriptions of Othello's blackness. That IS racism; what else would you call it? ..."Lea, perhaps it would be helpful if you define racism as how you understand it, which would give a better understanding of your point of view. I think there is a big difference between hating someone because of their skin colour vs. not hating them for this reason but using something about them that is different in order to manipulate a situation for your own ends.
BTW, was Iago the only character in the play that brought up the colour of Othello's skin, or were there others? I can't remember....
Cleo wrote: "Lea wrote: "Cleo, but what you describe IS racism. It is possible Iago may have been mad at Othello primarily for other reasons, but he chooses to express this anger with derogatory descriptions of..."Cleo, I'd be happy to answer your question, but would you answer mine first?
Is calling a Jew cheap - for whatever reason - anti-Semitic or not?
Is calling a person Black in an intentionally derogatory manner - for whatever reason - racist or not?
Lea wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Lea wrote: "Cleo, but what you describe IS racism. It is possible Iago may have been mad at Othello primarily for other reasons, but he chooses to express this anger with derogatory de..."They are racists comments that aren't necessarily motivated by racism.
Lea wrote: "The question is: Why is Othello insecure enough to fall for Iago's machinations? ..."I think it has a lot to do with racism. A LOT.
Othello knows he is not accepted in Venetian society... Despite his military achievements, etc., he is still a Blackamoor. We could say he is just an 'outsider' (which he is) but there are so many racial slurs used throughout the play!
Words like 'thicklips' and 'sooty bosom'??? (and BTW, these are words spoken by Rodrigo and Brabantio, NOT Iago. Even Desdemona calls Othello 'The Moor'. )
Racism would definitely contribute to Othello's susceptibility, along with other things as were mentioned -- his age, etc. However, I think it is mostly about race.
Don't forget -- and perhaps this was mentioned before -- Queen Elizabeth created a proposal to expel Blacks from England at the time Othello was written. I agree that Shakespeare cleverly chose the setting of Venice, a cosmopolitan and 'enlightened' city, but who was watching this play? Elizabethans! At a time when their own Queen was involved in racist activity.
(Regarding Brabantio, I am reminded a bit of 'Guess Who's Coming To Dinner'. The enlightened parents who raise their white daughter liberally and are shocked when she marries a black man -- then must face their own fears and prejudice.)
Another telling thing -- Act 1, Scene 3 -- Brabantio's words to Othello (regarding Desdemona):
"Look to her, Moor, if thou hast eyes to see:
She has deceived her father, and may thee."
This plants some serious doubt in Othello's mind. From there on in all he needs is a little evil coaxing.
Great discussion! :)
Cleo wrote: "Lea wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Lea wrote: "Cleo, but what you describe IS racism. It is possible Iago may have been mad at Othello primarily for other reasons, but he chooses to express this anger with d..."As I said in a much earlier comment, I think I agree with you, Cleo, that racism isn't thee motivating factor in this play - although after Christine's great comment, I'm not sure anymore! But just because something isn't the >50% motivator, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The idea that "there are racist comments that aren't necessarily motivated by racism" is, I think, a distinction without a difference. A good definition of racism, in my opinion, is the existence of racist acts and behaviors. Which we have here.
There is racism in this play. (Otherwise, why not pick on Othello for this big nose all the time, say, instead of his Blackness?). Whether or not it is thee motivating factor may be the more interesting debate.
Thanks for the discussion everyone! And Happy Monday...
I believe this play is about race. Shakespeare went to the trouble of specifying that Othello is black. He doesn't do this for any characters in any of his other plays. The closest, I believe, is the character of Shylock in The Merchant of Venice. I will not repeat what I said in earlier posts, except to state that racism is a part of this play. As for why Othello trusts Iago, Othello is written as above reproach. He is truthful in his own endeavors, so he has no reason to distrust others. He believes they tell the truth as well. He doesn't realize that he's being set up. I believe this is so the audience would empathize with Othello, and not hate him because he is black. It reminds me of Sidney Poitier's character in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner," released in 1967. His character was written to be above reproach, so that the only reason Spencer Tracy, who played his future father-in-law, would have to object to him was his race. (This was during the civil rights era of the 1960s.) This discussion is very appropriate now, as it is Black History Month here in the US.
Cleo wrote: "Lea wrote: "Cleo, but what you describe IS racism. It is possible Iago may have been mad at Othello primarily for other reasons, but he chooses to express this anger with derogatory descriptions of..."Othello himself brings up the issue of the colour of his skin ...... play not with me at mo. Will repost with quote.
I think the key understanding of the play is perhaps in Emilia's lines in act III:"Jealous souls will not be answer'd so/ they are never jealous for the cause, but jealious because they are jealious. This answers Iago's character. And perhaps Othello's--except that no characters in the play have ever seen this in him, which is puzzling.
For a moment I thought "...play not with me at mo." was a line in Othello. Judging distant eras by contemporary standards is always fraught. It's the old Huck Finn dilemma. The artist holds up a mirror to his time, and down the road his work is banned for its honest depiction. Was race really what Shakespeare was concerned about with this play? As mentioned somewhere above, in the Arabian Nights story the villain was a black slave, who was a liar. Iago is closest in character to that slave. The husband in the Arabian Nights story is an Arab, who looks down upon the slave, and ends up killing his wife because he's led to believe that the slave slept with her. But Shakespeare turns it all upside down. Why? What does he gain by making Othello Black? Why not make Iago Black? I think mainly because it would diminish the dramatic tension of the play's set-up. Few Europeans of this era would not readily accept a Black Iago. A scheming liar? Of course! But a Black hero? Now we're going to confuse them, now we're going to set the audience on edge. I don't think Shakespeare was trying to hammer home any lessons on racism; he was creating a character who could best unleash another character's awful will.
Alex wrote: "What does he gain by making Othello Black? Why not make Iago Black?..."Yes, see that is the whole thing of it! By making the white guy the evil one, Shakespeare makes it edgy, controversial, modern and thought-provoking.
Joseph wrote: " It reminds me of Sidney Poitier's character in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner"..."Joseph, I had written in a previous post I was reminded of that movie, too!
Paul Robeson was the first black actor to 'crack' the color code and portray Othello onstage in the 1930's. (That is... an actual black actor portraying him, not a white actor in black-face.)
Robeson stated then that the dilemma of Othello in 1603 was the same as any black American man in the 1930's. That is -- military prowess was perfectly acceptable, but marrying a white woman was NOT.
Great point about Black History month!
@ Lea --- yes, that's it. I was talking about racism as the motivating factor. While people use racist comments, I don't see textual evidence that that is the motivation. Except for Othello ..... there is some evidence that he feels inferior but it's not quite clear as to why.I do think Shakespeare makes Othello black to highlight his "otherness" and I agree, he could have used a big nose or given him three ears, but his colour was the most obvious and different feature.
Motivation is pretty important. As a reader (or viewer), if don't look for the motivating factors in the play, you can miss the point of the play. Of course, we can choose to look at it from a modern POV, and that does have its value, but if we only look at it from that angle, we will never know the play "with the same spirit the author writ,", as Pope says. Shakespeare, master that he is, often leaves subtleties with little explanation, which generate good discussion. He doesn't hand it to us on a platter, he makes us hunt.
@ James ...... I'd love it if you could find that quote for me.
Tracy wrote: "I think the key understanding of the play is perhaps in Emilia's lines in act III:"Jealous souls will not be answer' so/ they are never jealous for the cause, but jealious because they are jealiou..."
Yes Iago's jealousy is a complex sort but not the 'green eyed monster' that Othello has to deal with (the monster that Iago feeds).
The fact that a rumour is abroad suggesting that Othello has cuckolded Iago does not apparently make Iago angry or jealous. He seems happy to treat it as a 'fact' to use as another weapon against Othello. He, Iago is not made a victim of jealousy like Othello is. Or is he? Is it that his jealousy is so strong that he becomes a psychopath in his revenge?
Here is an interesting comment from one of the edX students who is from Spain and knew some history of the Moors:"In Spain and, I suppose, in Renaissance Italy, because of centuries of cultural and genetical crossbreeding and a constant close contact, not always as good neighbours, I must say, it was not really difficult to find high society girls, even princess, married with Moors. (A way of creating strongs bonds between kingdoms during peace times). In XVI and XVII centuries, Moors were more cultivated and sophistacated people than Christians. There were no racist issues, although there could be religious barriers. With respect to Black men, they were thought to belong to sauvage tribes, not completely being part of humankind, they were kind of a flaw in God's work.
Anyway, it can be colour skin, religion, country, social status..., we always find something so that we can discriminate between US and the OTHERS. And Othello clearly belongs to the OTHERS group, Shakespeare chooses the colour of his skin to make it more obvious to the audience."
So the Moors of Spain seems to have been an integrated and integral part of society, but a Black man from elsewhere would have been seen in an entirely different light.
Alex wrote: "For a moment I thought "...play not with me at mo." was a line in Othello. Judging distant eras by contemporary standards is always fraught. It's the old Huck Finn dilemma. The artist holds up a m...""Play with me now.." Act 2 Scene 3 (just kidding).
The line I had in mind is where Othello puts himself down by saying,
"Haply, for I am black and have not those soft parts of conversation that chamberers have, " Act 3 Scene 3.
I don't think he is talking about 'black' chamberers.
I agree that it would make little dramatic sense to make Iago the only black person in the play, but I do think that the writing of Othello was written very consciously to portray a black man with high status in a white society. And perhaps more important to show him to be very human as well. I think Shakespeare was opening out the discussion about attitudes to race, which were very important at that time of world exploration and colonization.
But there is so much more to this play as well!
James wrote: "Alex wrote: "For a moment I thought "...play not with me at mo." was a line in Othello. Judging distant eras by contemporary standards is always fraught. It's the old Huck Finn dilemma. The artist..."Thanks. I vaguely remember discussing this in class and I think this is where I felt that Othello's colour is noticed by himself at least.
James wrote: "But there is so much more to this play as well! .."
Yes, absolutely!
Cleo wrote: "@ Lea --- yes, that's it. I was talking about racism as the motivating factor. While people use racist comments, I don't see textual evidence that that is the motivation. Except for Othello ......."I'll repeat the quote from Act 3, scene 3
"Haply, for I am black
And have not those soft parts of conversation
That chamberers have,". Othello is saying that in this way he is not as good as white folk.
Before this Othello starts out by saying of Iago
"This fellow's of exceeding honesty
And knows all qualities, with a learned spirit,".
Honestly! We're going to have to start talking about Honesty soon.
James wrote: "Cleo wrote: "@ Lea --- yes, that's it. I was talking about racism as the motivating factor. While people use racist comments, I don't see textual evidence that that is the motivation. Except for..."Do you know what puzzles me? Othello passed over Iago for the promotion and gave it to Cassio. He must have known there was something faulty in either Iago's character or abilities. Why then does he trust him so implicitly? (I know there is really no definite answer to this question, but it still bothers me). I can only think that his jealously was like a sickness and Iago was like a drug. The sicker he got, the more convinced he was that he needed the drug, without having the wherewithall to determine whether the drug was doing him good or harm. Sad ....
ETA: Since Othello so drastically misjudges Iago's character, I wonder if he perhaps misjudges his own. Desdemona was drawn in to love him from his "soft parts of conversation," so I wonder if he is blind to his attributes just as he is blind to Iago's manipulation.
James wrote: "The line I had in mind is where Othello puts himself down by saying,"Haply, for I am black and have not those soft parts of conversation that chamberers have, "...
Yes, and there are other passages like that as well.
In Act 3, Scene 3 regarding Desdemona:
"Her name, that was as fresh
As Dian's visage, is now begrimed and black
As mine own face."
I can't remember who in this thread suggested it, but I'm watching right now the Othello movie adaptation "O". Let me start by saying I love the names! Hugo for Iago, Des for Desdemona, Oden for Othello. Also, from the very first scene Iago/Hugo seems upset. In other words, he is upset even before he is passed over as Othello/Oden's best friend and second in command. The movie is showing Iago/Hugo's motives as many. Jealousy, racism, there also seems to be a resentment thing going on about being relatively poor.
Iago is such an unknown, because so many plausible reasons lie behind his evilness.
It is almost a frightening thought that so many things can lead a person to behave badly - you almost wonder why we don't see more evil in the world, if the motivations for it to seem plausible are so many and varied!
Rambling here... onto the rest of the movie...
James wrote: "Alex wrote: "For a moment I thought "...play not with me at mo." was a line in Othello. Judging distant eras by contemporary standards is always fraught. It's the old Huck Finn dilemma. The artist..."James: I don't think of jealousy as being exclusive to love relationships.
I read that "Happly....chamberers" line differently, I think. I think a chamberer is someone who is for court , someone good at manipulating words--charming, political--(aka a kiss-ass). I think Othello the soldier doesn't see himself in this frame; he's more the Gary Cooper silent type--a man of action over words. I think he's saying he's half glad he is this way, and just doesn't want to be misunderstood. I also think this may be where he feels insecure with Desdemona--unused to charming the ladies.
Tracy wrote: "James wrote: "Alex wrote: "For a moment I thought "...play not with me at mo." was a line in Othello. Judging distant eras by contemporary standards is always fraught. It's the old Huck Finn dilem..."I agree, Tracy. Othello is happy to think of himself as a warrior, outside the niceties of the court.
Lea wrote: "I can't remember who in this thread suggested it, but I'm watching right now the Othello movie adaptation "O". Let me start by saying I love the names! Hugo for Iago, Des for Desdemona, Oden for ..."Hi Lea, just curious -- does the 'O' movie use the original Shakespeare dialog, or is it modernized?
Christine wrote: "Lea wrote: "I can't remember who in this thread suggested it, but I'm watching right now the Othello movie adaptation "O". Let me start by saying I love the names! Hugo for Iago, Des for Desdemon..."It's modernized, though it was fun to catch the glimpses of recognizable phrases. Like when Cassio moans about his reputation, reputation, reputation...!
Overall it was fun to watch. I wouldn't call it a great production or anything, but watched in conjunction with our reading of Othello, it was enjoyable.
Christine wrote: "James wrote: "The line I had in mind is where Othello puts himself down by saying,"Haply, for I am black and have not those soft parts of conversation that chamberers have, "...
Yes, and there ar..."
Good one. I missed that.
Tracy wrote: "James wrote: "Alex wrote: "For a moment I thought "...play not with me at mo." was a line in Othello. Judging distant eras by contemporary standards is always fraught. It's the old Huck Finn dilem..."Haply I think you are right there. I misconstrued 'haply' I think.
Shakespeare Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Art Made Tongue-Tied By Authority: Elizabethan and Jacobean Dramatic Censorship (other topics)The Life of Elizabeth I (other topics)
Paradise Lost (other topics)
Years ago I was part of a Shakespeare reading group that got together in a restaurant, divied up the parts, and then read the play out loud over nachos or whatever. It never seemed to do much for me - much like I think your students reading in a monotone. I'm wondering if I should try not reading it in a group, but just reading it behind closed doors to myself!