Dickensians! discussion

To Be Read at Dusk
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Short Reads, led by our members > To Be Read at Dusk - 1st Summer Read 2020 (hosted by Sara)

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message 1: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 24, 2020 11:55AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Here is the thread for our first "Dickensians!" Summer Read, which is of the short story To Be Read at Dusk by Charles Dickens.

This read is from August 1st - 7th, and will be hosted by Sara :)

Please allow Sara to comment first, everyone! Thanks :)


message 2: by Sara (last edited Jul 31, 2020 06:29AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments Overview:

I am providing a brief summary of the story and some personal thoughts on the story. I have enclosed the summary in spoilers in case anyone should be checking here before reading the story. I decided it was unnecessary to break the story into sections, so I have summarized and evaluated the story in its entirety.

(view spoiler)


My Comments:

(view spoiler)


Dean Sara, I'm very happy having you as our host..
Right now starting to read this short story accompanied with a pipping hot cup of delicious teaa!!
Dean;)


Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments This should go well with tea, Dean. A bit of warmth to keep the ghosts at bay.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.


Petra | 2173 comments Sara, I am looking forward to this read. I haven't started yet. Like Dean, I'll be starting it today. I have a few things to do first but will then dig in.


message 6: by Debra Diggs (last edited Aug 01, 2020 09:11AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Debra Diggs I plan on starting this late today.


Dean Sara, I've just finished it!!
A wonderful writtenl and gripping ghost story..
Very good, I loved it..
Dean;)


Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments Really happy so many are able to start it on the first day! Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

Tell us what you think, Dean.


Dean Well, first of all Dickens dish up strong characters!!
Then he achieves to play with your imagination and subconscious..

Take for example the first part of this short story, I mean the dream with the face!!
Dickens was a real literary genius!!
You see, he merely hints and gives you insinuations..
And then watch the end of this lady!!!

It nearly did break my heart..
She disappears with the stranger or ghost or what else this being might be..
This is the reason I'm a reader hooked to the outermost..
Dean;)


message 10: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments I agree, Dickens is an expert at manipulating us. lol. The dream did make me squirm as soon as "the shadow" walked in. What I hated was that no one would believe her, they all made her feel like she was a little unhinged. Seen that play out in modern day life a number of times...the classic way to handle anything you don't understand.


message 11: by Dean (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dean Absolutely Sara!!
I do agree with you..
Dickens is an expert manipulating us, and in creating strong believable characters..
Even in short stories!!
Nobody did believe her, but see how it ended..
Also Dickens let questions unanswered!!
Like if the lady went forth willingly or under an evil spell!!


message 12: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Jacobson | 95 comments Did the man try to come “kidnap” her before or did she really see him in a dream? Though the first thought doesn’t work because then in the last story the brother was with servants all day and could not have gone to see his brother then gone home to die. So it does suggest the idea of ghosts. I don’t know what Dickens wants us to believe or take from this.

From a religious stand point I do believe in the idea that some can visit after they die. You wouldn’t necessarily see them, but maybe feel them and definitely dream about them. I assumed his brother would already be dead because of this, but it was just a warning of what was to come.

Hmmmmm


message 13: by Dean (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dean Ashley, she did see him in a dream..
And a lot to ponder about!!


Jenny Clark | 388 comments If I can find this, I will join in. Sounds interesting and the connection to Poe intrigues me!


message 15: by Dean (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dean Jenny I want to encourage you reading it!!
You'll love it..


Jenny Clark | 388 comments Thanks Dean (✿^‿^)


message 17: by Dean (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dean My pleasure..
Dean;)


Jenny Clark | 388 comments I found it! I will be back with my impressions!


message 19: by Dean (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dean Wonderful News, Jenny!!!
Looking forwards to your thoughts and impressions..


message 20: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Aug 01, 2020 01:11PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Thank you so much Sara, for the summary and your thoughts. It's provoked a great discussion already :)

Sara wrote: "Our sanity should tell us these explanations are correct, but our senses tell us they are wrong. Our senses insist that something out of the ordinary, something sinister and other-worldly has taken place in each instance..."

I like this :) Even right at the beginning, when we think of Switzerland, don't we think of cute little chalets and glistening sunshine on snow covered mountains? And what do we get? An ominous picture indeed:

"the remote heights stained by the setting sun as if a mighty quantity of red wine had been broached upon the mountain top, and had not yet had time to sink into the snow."

The word "stained" actually made me think of blood again. Maybe it's a subliminal threat. Interestingly Charles Dickens attributed this poetic bit of description about the setting sun to one of the couriers, not himself! He stands apart right from the start.


message 21: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
This type of story was popular in the 19th century; a story within a story, where we feel we are invited to sit around a fire (though not in this case!) and each share our own ghost story. Charles Dickens has written quite a few like this.

Plus he often has characters in his novels tell stories like this. It gives us a cosy, "included" sort of feeling, as well as a comradeship with the author.

Another thing I find interesting is that Charles Dickens has included himself, hiding from the five couriers, but observing everything they are doing, ready to include it in his next bit of writing. I can just see him in my mind's eye; eyes bright, demeanour a bit furtive, but trying to blend into the background. (That must have been hard! He was such a dandy ... but perhaps he has given himself a new persona: An Author.)

It's clear this inclusion of the author is for verisimilitude, as the story he is to recount is such well-trodden ground. A dastardly villain, a pert and pretty young newly-wed. It reminded me a little of those by Wilkie Collins, his great friend, and this story was written just a year after they had first met. Perhaps they had already been starting to share ideas, even though Dickens was 12 years older.


message 22: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Aug 02, 2020 03:02AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Another idea we often have with a popular theme like this, is that the husband is secretly in league with the villain. There's no hint of this, but then it is not inconsistent with anything either. Or is it the young wife who is dissembling, and has she had an earlier liaison with the "stranger"? Our minds can fly free ...

The palazzo hints of ruin, is “like a tomb” and has a smell “grown faint with confinement.” This suggests confinement, and repression.

"Dellombra means “of the shadows” and Clara means “light”, as Sara said. Yes, opposites. Are we being told that Clara is schizophrenic, and Dellombra is either imagined, or guilt-induced, or a metaphor for her dark side?

Or (oh dear ... ) perhaps this is a metaphor for a dark desire of hers: a sexual desire. Dellombra bearing her off in a coach might symbolise her being driven in her actions by her own desires (and possibly her addictions to laudanum at this time). The husband's darker side might indicate that Clara lost her virginity, and Charles Dickens might be suggesting very obliquely that Clara is no longer the rider, but the hostage of the coach drawn by those dark horses.

Why else should Clara's husband gradually encourage her to accept the reality of the man she first saw in her dream? It seems callous - unless it is a metaphor. An inhibited Victorian female who had led a sheltered life, might well faint at the idea (as Clara did, when she saw the face.) Perhaps the husband is not so insensitive after all, but trying to encourage his wife to see and feel the sensual or sexual desire of her "dark side".

That might all be stretching it a bit, but I do think this story is deliberately left unclear - and feels sexually loaded. The open-endedness is key, I think. It wouldn't be nearly as effective if the wife's disappearance were to be explained! This story stops at the perfect point, because what we all want to know is, what has happened to the young wife? And as we are on edge and trying to work it out, we move straight onto the next story, ratcheting up the tension nicely.


message 23: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Aug 01, 2020 01:10PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
The duality in this story is repeated in the far shorter story about the two brothers, when the dying brother "visited" his twin in spirit form, before he'd actually died. I like your thoughts on this Ashley, as Charles Dickens was himself a committed Christian, as you probably know :)

To Be Read at Dusk was first published in "The Keepsake", and was written in 1852, more than 30 years before The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (in 1886). Yet several authors were already exploring the idea of duality of self. Charles Dickens himself was fascinated by Mesmerism. While he was in Italy he performed it on a woman, and had some success.

In a way Charles Dickens might be hedging his bets. It could be that he is writing a ghost story, or a supernatural story for those who prefer that definition, and for complete sceptics, he could be offering a story of psychological depths, which were all being investigated, explored and gradually defined by science.


message 24: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Aug 01, 2020 01:17PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Charles Dickens did love his ghosts and ghouls though! And this one begins:

"One, two, three, four, five. There were five of them."

Charles Dickens seems to be making a point here, and yet do you remember five? Or just four? There are three stories, and Charles Dickens himself is the watcher. But there are still only four, not five.

And why are these trusted and important servants now couriers in the alps? Couriers of what? Ideas? Are they in fact all sides of one narrator: one person, and that person is Charles Dickens?

I like this idea the best. It's Charles Dickens musing and telling himself stories to frighten himself. And that's probably why everything disappears: I love that the couriers all seem to have been shades in the end. It reminds me of the painting "Dickens's Dream", with the inventions in his mind, all around him. Charles Dickens invites us to muse for ourselves.

This story is pure Charles Dickens :) I do like his portmanteau stories, and this one seems so well structured, and introduces so many intriguing ideas. I'm so glad you picked it, Sara :)


Jenny Clark | 388 comments Perhaps the fifth courier is the reader Jean? That seams like something Dickens might do!


message 26: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Oooo nice! I like that idea, Jenny :)


France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments What the German courrier said about meeting people who look like someone and then meeting that someone reminded me of my own "ghost" story. I have a cousin who died in 1991 and not long after I was in the Metro (subway) and I heard someone speak with his voice, obviously nothing really ghostly but still it shook me.

About the story, I always thought the the travelers that are waiting for their burials are actually the courriers and that was the "real" ghost story in this. That solution just made a lot of sense to me and I never thought it wasn't what Charles Dickens meant... it's interesting to know not everyone sees that automatically.

I like your interpretation of the young bride's story, Jean. I do believe in premonitory dreams so I do see that in the story, not to be believe might have been worst than the actual dreaming and meeting the man. If her husband had done his job of protecting her, he probably wouldn't have lost her; he didn't deserve her so the "devil" or "Devil" took her away.

The twins feel like stories we do hear about twins when one predeceased the other... but the brother is not dead yet!

It's a good story about appearances and what can we really believe. Thank you, Sara, that was a good story to choose and your recap and comments were very thoughtful.


message 28: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Jacobson | 95 comments I think the wording was very intentional to make us think blood. That was one of my first impressions. And think of TOTC where the wine flowed through the streets as a foreshadow of the blood shed to come. Sounds very Dickens.


message 29: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Yes, it reminded me of A Tale of Two Cities too, Ashley :)

France-Andrée "the travelers that are waiting for their burials are actually the courriers and that was the "real" ghost story in this."

That's really interesting too! I'll have to read it again I think, to see if I can see it like this. I'm not sure how 5 fits in, if so.

But then I think Charles Dickens is inviting us to think of several different interpretations.


Debra Diggs This story was good and interesting. Not scary at all, but still enjoyable. I liked the open ended story endings.

The bride story: I assumed Signor Dellombra was a vampire. Or he could have been Death.

The twins story: I found this story to be believable. Not unusual at all.

The couriers story: I believed they were ghosts.


message 31: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori | 123 comments I really enjoyed this!

Sara: Your summary is excellent and I loved your thoughts. I was also thinking of the bond between twins when I read the account if James and John.

Jean: Thank you so much for your insight. You’ve given me so much to think about.

I imagine that when these stories were written they caused quite a few goosebumps. The bride was truly haunted by fear after her dream. Pity we don’t know if she had premonitions on a regular basis or was clairvoyant.

Dreams can be very powerful. My father had a stroke last year and about two weeks before that happened my paternal grandfather appeared in one of my dreams. It was such a vivid dream and I definitely felt my grandfather was trying to communicate but was overwhelmed because he had never before appeared in one of my dreams.

I am guessing that the twins were telepathic. I find this absolutely fascinating and have read that twin telepathy is a real phenomenon.

I think I’ll read through this story again and pop back in.
Excellent choice, Sara!


message 32: by Connie (last edited Aug 01, 2020 06:34PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Connie  G (connie_g) | 1029 comments I love how the disappearance of the English bride, Clara, can be interpreted in more than one way. When I read it the first time, I thought that Clara's premonition had predicted her kidnapping.

On my second reading, I could see her terror being turned to fascination and sexual attraction. Signor Dellombra was handsome and suave with an air of mystery. He was accomplished in pictures, books, and music. Clara "would look at him with a terrified and fascinated glance, as if his presence had some evil influence or power upon her." Without realizing it, her husband was throwing them together by inviting Signor Dellombra to dinners. Clara has had Dellombra on her mind constantly. She tells her husband that she is ill, and is not to be disturbed all day. Then she meets "bad boy" Dellombra as her dream predicted, and they go off in the coach together.


message 33: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments I really love all the different interpretations and insights there are here. I had not thought of the couriers being the travelers, which absolutely fits. I found it very interesting that the couriers when they open their discussion insist that the stories are not about ghosts, which of course leads one to believe that they are.

The bride story is by far the more interesting of the two told by the couriers. I can see your second reading, Connie, and feel that could easily happen that the bride was thrown upon this man who would have had such a draw for her. Fear and sexual fascination can be so easily linked.

Lori--LOVE your own personal "ghost' story. I wonder has everyone had a ghostly experience. I have, and it leaves you with literal goosebumps and an eerie lightheadedness.

Jean -- you're always a fountain of information that makes the experience of reading anything Dickens so much more rewarding.


booklady | 2 comments Hi,

I know I'm coming in already at the 11th hour, but I wanted to introduce myself and say I intend to do this buddy read and will **try** to keep up--though I haven't even started the book yet, so I quit reading your posts when I saw you were getting into discussions about the story. (Will come back and read later after I have read the book!) I confess to having trouble just keeping up with GRs due to lots of family and other obligations. Thanks to Jean for the very kind invite and you all sound so nice. I already know Dean as a friend and look forward to getting to know the rest of you. Will post as/when I can!

booklady/cathy


message 35: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
booklady wrote: "Hi,

I know I'm coming in already at the 11th hour, but I wanted to introduce myself and say I intend to do this buddy read and will **try** to keep up--though I haven't even started the book yet, ..."


Hi Cathy!! So great to see you here. Don't worry - this is a short story and won't take long at all to read :)

Sara has carefully put her summary under spoilers, for just such an occasion - a new member coming in - so as not to reveal too much. We are very careful about spoilers in "Dickensians!" But please do come back here when you can - and introduce yourself in the Welcome thread if you like.


message 36: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments Welcome, Cathy. Never too late and you will catch up quickly with this one.


message 37: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Aug 02, 2020 07:29AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
I just wanted to add that I too am fascinated by all the different interpretations of this story.

Debra - Yes! Your sense that Signor Dellombra could be a vampire I found very astute, thank you :) I think of vampires as another manifestation of a sexual desire. I knew the legend was ancient, and across many vultures, and have just checked the literature Charles Dickens may have had access to ...

There's John Polidori's 1819 book The Vampyre which was apparently highly successful, and some think it's the most influential vampire work of the early 19th century.

I think this may be what Charles Dickens read as J. Sheridan Le Fanu's novel Carmilla was 20 years later, in 1872, and the one we all think of as the quintessential vampire novel Dracula by Bram Stoker was even later in 1897.

Now I'm racking my brains for other stories by Charles Dickens which might have a vampire subtext. He was definitely before his time :)


booklady | 2 comments Thanks Jean and Sara!


message 39: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments Sara wrote: "How clever he is in his ability to tell a story that tempts one to think of the supernatural, but to offer no proof that there isn’t a perfectly ordinary explanation..."

Great summary and thoughts on this story, Sara.

I think Dickens was always keen to do this in his supernatural stories and make it appear there could be a rational explanation.

I remember from his letters that he had an argument with Gaskell about one of her ghost stories (I won't say which one to avoid any risk of spoilers!) because, citing Shakespeare, he said that only one character should ever see a ghost so that there can be this ambiguity.


message 40: by Debra Diggs (last edited Aug 02, 2020 08:42AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Debra Diggs Jean, yes, I think vampires and sexual desire go together. And thanks for the list of books. I have read two and got the John Polidori vampire book for free on Amazon. So I will read it soon.

Love every ones thoughts on this. Thanks, Sara.


message 41: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments The vampire angle is very intriguing!


message 42: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments Judy wrote: "Sara wrote: "How clever he is in his ability to tell a story that tempts one to think of the supernatural, but to offer no proof that there isn’t a perfectly ordinary explanation..."

Great summary..."


They do make for the best ghost stories...the ones where there is always the doubt, the question to ponder. I have always thought The Turn of the Screw the best ghost story ever written, because there is so much psychological tumult and yet a case can be made perfectly using the text for either side of the argument. I do not doubt that Henry James would have profited from reading Dickens...and Shakespeare of course.


message 43: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments Debra wrote: "Jean, yes, I think vampires and sexual desire go together. And thanks for the list of books. I have read two and got the John Polidori vampire book for free on Amazon. So I will r..."

Debra, I have been now forced to add two books to my TBR as well. The vampire is such a strong sexual symbol, and with the Victorians we are always asked to look between the lines for the sexual content. You were very clever to have picked up on this.


message 44: by Judy (last edited Aug 02, 2020 09:05AM) (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments A bit of background about one of the stories in To Be Told at Dusk. Elizabeth Gaskell felt that Dickens had stolen this story from her after she told a version of it to him - this was the tale of the woman haunted by a face, which she had been told as a girl in Knutsford, although with a different ending from the one Dickens uses (he admitted that he had forgotten her ending and made another one up).

Jenny Uglow's biography, Elizabeth Gaskell: A Habit of Stories, quotes a letter of hers: "...wretch that he is to go and write MY story of the lady haunted by the face, I shall have nothing to talk about now at dull parties."

It seems she wrote to Dickens complaining too, and he sent her a reply with many over-the-top apologies - it's the third letter on the page below. One of his excuses is: "I never yet met anybody who read The Keepsake" (the magazine his story was published in!)

http://victorian-studies.net/CD-Lette...  

Just to add, I'm not sure how serious any of this is and how much it's the two of them, who were friends at this time, teasing each other - his letter is very humorous, so I would think it's quite likely hers was too.


message 45: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments Sara wrote: "Judy wrote: "Sara wrote: "I have always thought The Turn of the Screw the best ghost story ever written, because there is so much psychological tumult and yet a case can be made perfectly using the text for either side of the argument...."..."

Definitely a great ghost story, I agree, Sara, and endlessly fascinating to look at it from different angles.


Brenda (gd2brivard) I read a similar short story recently, but by Edith Wharton, who could have been influenced by Dickens, Collins and Gaskell as she came after? I think the beauty of the story is its ambiguity and that it lends itself so well to discussion. I think this type of story worked especially well during that time period as there was much less in the form of entertainment, It would certainly make for a lively parlor debate.

The first thing that really grabbed me in the story (I think it was the German) talking about seeing two different people that made him think of someone and sure enough, the friend showed up.

I was then leaning to the idea of "your thoughts become your reality" I think now also referred to the "Law of Attraction". Negative people can tend to be unlucky as that is where their thoughts dwell, while as positive people generally seem to bring better fortune to themselves. Since all that we have is a short snippet into the lives of the characters we can only speculate as to their nature. What if the English woman was melancholic at times, sometimes thinking of the worst? Could she have brought the reality to life? Could the brother have almost willed it to see his brother one last time, especially with the bond among siblings, especially twins being so great? Maybe it is not otherworldly but inwardly created?

I am not dismissing the ghostly aspects of the story as I myself have seen things that would be hard to explain, this was just a different angle I found myself thinking on.

Thanks Sara for the lead! Great to be reading with you again. :))

And hi to Lori as well!


message 47: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments Brenda, lovely to see you as well! I love your thoughts that both stories might be inward projections that manifest themselves in life. That seems especially possible with the twins. The magic of the stories seems to me to be the ambiguity of whether the ghosts are real or whether there isn't some other explanation for them that is logical, without any paranormal element.

I have also been reading The Ghost Stories of Edith Wharton, so I am steeped in ghostly tales these days. I'm positive she and Henry James would have drawn on all these predecessors, including Dickens. Perhaps the elements that make a good ghost story were laid down in this era and have never changed.


Brenda (gd2brivard) I agree about the magic! I love this type of story because the author allows us to think and form our own thoughts and opinions, which one can be hard pressed to find in contemporary lit as we’re getting conditioned to believe that everything needs to be spelled out.

In contrast, I think I enjoy these types of discussions even more to hear everyone’s else’s thoughts.


message 49: by Sara (last edited Aug 02, 2020 10:16AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments Judy Thank you for the background on the "face" story and Gaskell. I can see how it would miff you, as a writer, to have another writer use your story...but I'm so glad he did or it would simply have been lost in time as dinner conversation.


message 50: by Robin P (new)

Robin P The setting in Switzerland features again in Little Dorrit. Dickens obviously had been there.

I felt like the story was "off" because there were 2 parts. There should be 3 for the classic fairy tale structure. I was surprised that it ended when it did. But maybe the "frame" story was the 3rd? I tend to skim over the introductory parts of 19th century books, where they spend so much time trying to justify how they came to have the story, so maybe I didn't take in the significance of the couriers.


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