Early American Literature discussion
Nathaniel Hawthorne
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A Select Party
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Joanna
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Jul 02, 2020 06:08AM
Discussion thread for A Select Party.
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This may be my favorite Hawthorne story yet! It is SOOO good and even though I'd been warned by Melville that it is much deeper than the title suggests - "...A Select party, which, in my first simplicity upon originally taking hold of the book, I fancied must treat of some pumpkin-pie party in Old Salem, or some chowder party on Cape Cod. Whereas, by all the gods of Peedee! it is the sweetest and sublimest thing that has been written since Spencer wrote." - still it took me by surprise!
I will never look at a sunset or sunrise in the same way again! So much profound truth and beauty here...And now, if the people of the lower world chanced to be looking upward out of the turmoil of their petty perplexities, they probably mistook the castle in the air for a heap of sunset clouds, to which the magic of light and shade had imparted the aspect of a fantastically constructed mansion. To such beholders it was unreal, because they lacked the imaginative faith. Had they been worthy to pass within its portal, they would have recognized the truth, that the dominions which the spirit conquers for itself among unrealities become a thousand times more real than the earth whereon they stamp their feet, saying, “This is solid and substantial; this may be called a fact.”
...the Man of Fancy preceded the company to another noble saloon, the pillars of which were solid golden sunbeams taken out of the sky in the first hour in the morning. Thus, as they retained all their living lustre, the room was filled with the most cheerful radiance imaginable, yet not too dazzling to be borne with comfort and delight. The windows were beautifully adorned with curtains made of the many-colored clouds of sunrise, all imbued with virgin light, and hanging in magnificent festoons from the ceiling to the floor. Moreover, there were fragments of rainbows scattered through the room; so that the guests, astonished at one another, reciprocally saw their heads made glorious by the seven primary hues; or, if they chose,—as who would not?—they could grasp a rainbow in the air and convert it to their own apparel and adornment. But the morning light and scattered rainbows were only a type and symbol of the real wonders of the apartment. By an influence akin to magic, yet perfectly natural, whatever means and opportunities of joy are neglected in the lower world had been carefully gathered up and deposited in the saloon of morning sunshine. As may well be conceived, therefore, there was material enough to supply, not merely a joyous evening, but also a happy lifetime, to more than as many people as that spacious apartment could contain.
Your picture is so lovely, Meg! Even the trees in the background look like a castle!
Hew, I don't even know what to think about this one! It IS pretty deep - need the words to sink in for a bit. Mainly, there's a lot of symbolism to understand, and while there was so much I couldn't retain it all, it would be nice to find a study guide or something short to walk through the story with.It was interesting reading Hawthorne's thoughts on the Master Genius. With America being a new country still, it was fascinating to read of bygone hopes for a new nation...especially pertaining to American Literature. It seemed like that was something Hawthorne had a passion for - America must have her own great literature and classics to look up to. What do you think? Here, lemme find the passage I'm talking about:
"Who but the Master Genius for whom our country is looking anxiously into the mist of Time, as destined to fulfil the great mission of creating an American literature, hewing it as it were, out of the unwrought granite of our intellectual quarries?"
I may be interpreting this quote so wrongly, so I would love to hear other's thoughts.
Hannah wrote: "Hew, I don't even know what to think about this one! It IS pretty deep - need the words to sink in for a bit. Mainly, there's a lot of symbolism to understand, and while there was so much I couldn'..."Hannah, you are bringing up a very interesting subject here! I will add some things about this tomorrow. :)
Hannah wrote: "Mainly, there's a lot of symbolism to understand, and while there was so much I couldn't retain it all, it would be nice to find a study guide or something short to walk through the story with."Oh my yes, I've often wished for something like this too!!! 😁
Hannah wrote: "It was interesting reading Hawthorne's thoughts on the Master Genius. With America being a new country still, it was fascinating to read of bygone hopes for a new nation...especially pertaining to American Literature. It seemed like that was something Hawthorne had a passion for - America must have her own great literature and classics to look up to. What do you think?"Ok, let me see if I can say anything on this without quoting whole books at you or writing a book myself (*sorry, it didn't happen)! 😂 A truly original American literature was something near and dear to the hearts of all the early American authors. I've done a lot of reading on this subject and as I understand it, it seems that with America being such a new country there was still a sort of feeling of inferiority in America towards England. American literature had to be measured against English standards and the earliest attempts were not very original and tended to be patterned after genteel English novels. Besides, what was there in our short history that was romantic enough to make a good story? A lot actually, as these authors began to realize! It was Whittier who wrote... “It has often been said that the New World is deficient in the elements of poetry and romance; that its bards must of necessity linger over the classic ruins of other lands; and draw their sketches of character from foreign sources, and paint Nature under the soft beauty of an Eastern sky. On the contrary, New England is full of Romance....we have mountains pillaring a sky as blue as that which bends over classic Olympus; streams as bright and beautiful as those of Greece and Italy, and forests richer and nobler than those which of old were haunted by Sylph and Dryad.”
Cooper was one of, if not the, first to write a novel with a purely American theme. Don't quote me on this, but I believe Sir Walter Scott's Waverly Romances and Robert Burns' poetry were very influential on our early writers because they showed what good material history and even the commonplace in everyday lives could be!
Herman Melville had some interesting things to say on the subject in Hawthorne and His Mosses. "...no American writer should write like an Englishman, or a Frenchman; let him write like a man, for then he will be sure to write like an American. Let us away with this Bostonian leaven of literary flunkeyism towards England. If either must play the flunkey in this thing, let England do it, not us...
Let America then prize and cherish her writers; yea, let her glorify them. They are not so many in number, as to exhaust her good-will. And while she has good kith and kin of her own, to take to her bosom, let her not lavish her embraces upon the household of an alien. For believe it or not England, after all, is, in many things, an alien to us. China has more bowels of real love for us than she. But even were there no Hawthorne, no Emerson, no Whittier, no Irving, no Bryant, no Dana, no Cooper, no Willis...--were there none of these, and others of like calibre among us, nevertheless, let America first praise mediocrity even, in her own children, before she praises (for everywhere, merit demands acknowledgment from every one) the best excellence in the children of any other land. Let her own authors, I say, have the priority of appreciation. I was much pleased with a hot-headed Carolina cousin of mine, who once said,--"If there were no other American to stand by, in Literature,--why, then, I would stand by Pop Emmons and his 'Fredoniad,' and till a better epic came along, swear it was not very far behind the Iliad." Take away the words, and in spirit he was sound."
It is interesting that this still seemed such a problem in 1850, when so much of our greatest literature was already written or being written! But in a way things haven't really changed. I was in a discussion in another group recently and someone listed 5 American novels and said that if one read those they would already have an above-average knowledge of American literature! Sadly, he's probably right!
Wow, Meg you are the queen of research. Is American Lit one of your passions? You seem to be so well learned on the subject!Melville's comment on writing like a man and not an Englishman is quite fascinating. British lit is often about society and centuries worth of drama whereas authors like Melville and Cooper wrote adventure stories about being out in nature. Much of American lit seems to be about nature doesn't it? Was that the Transcendentalism showing?
Creating great lit must have been an overwhelming task for an 80 yr old country. Comparatively like a new born babe to Britain's millennia! Do you think they knew literature was at its best during those decades or do you wonder if they felt it was still inadequate? Or were they constantly striving for greater and better despite their successes? As you said, some of their greatest works were being written but still it seemed like there was such a great push for great American Lit. What was their constant driving force?
Out of curiosity, what titles did he mention? Classic American novels just aren't heard of anymore. Thanks to you, I'm learning just how much has actually been written!
Hannah wrote: "Wow, Meg you are the queen of research. Is American Lit one of your passions? You seem to be so well learned on the subject!Melville's comment on writing like a man and not an Englishman is quite..."
Haha! Yes I am pretty deeply interested in it, but I still have a lot to learn! 😊
I didn't really think about the nature themed American literature as being influenced by Transcendentalism (besides the works written by Transcendentalists themselves of course!), but I imagine it's possible!
I think everyone had such high hopes for the future of America, they probably believed the best in literature was still yet to come. Alas! If these men could see what it has become. 😥 But they did see the greatness in many of their authors already - Melville lists several - the problem seems to be that, as he says, "it is the American author who now patronizes his country, and not his country him." Still, from what I've seen, they were quite popular in America and even in Europe. Longfellow rivalled Tennyson for popularity in England!
These are the books he listed. With the exception of The Scarlet Letter, of course, I really don't feel that these are anywhere near the greatest America has to offer!
The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne
Tales of Mystery and Imagination by Edgar Allan Poe
The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe
The Adventures of Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain
So what books would you consider to be America's best?
Hannah wrote: "So what books would you consider to be America's best?"I'm going to have to think about this a little bit...otherwise I will just recommend my entire bookshelf! 😂
HAHA, you make that sound like a bad thing!!
Hannah wrote: "HAHA, you make that sound like a bad thing!!"Well suppose I recommend all 32 of Cooper's novels for a starter...😂
See, okay, learning something new already!! Cooper wrote HOW MANY BOOKS!?! And the only books you hear of his (if any at all) are his Leatherstocking Tales....and of that only one in the series - Last of the Mohicans.
Hannah wrote: "See, okay, learning something new already!! Cooper wrote HOW MANY BOOKS!?! And the only books you hear of his (if any at all) are his Leatherstocking Tales....and of that only one in the series - L..."I know, it's strange! I've read 6 of his novels so far and loved them all! I'll definitely be reading them all eventually!
OK, I've done a bit of thinking, and if I were a teacher trying to introduce my students to great American literature, these would probably be my first choices. 😊The Spy by James Fenimore Cooper
The Scarlet Letter and Twice-Told Tales by Nathaniel Hawthorne
Evangeline: A Tale of Acadie and The Song of Hiawatha by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Moby-Dick or, the Whale by Herman Melville
Walden by Henry David Thoreau
Mod
A strong appreciation for, and even a fascination with, Nature was a general characteristic of the Romantic school in both Europe and America. American literature was predominately Romantic from the late 1700s (ca. 1789- ) on through the Civil War.
Mod
Meg, we agree on our high appreciation for The Scarlet Letter (I haven't read Twice-Told Tales). Personally, I'd rank The Rise of Silas Lapham by William Dean Howells (not a New England-born writer, but that novel is set in New England) right next to it. However, I rated Cooper's The Deerslayer (1841) much higher than The Spy. (It's a later and more mature work, for one thing, and IMO it shows.) And I wasn't able to rank either Moby Dick or Walden as highly as you do, though the former got a solid three stars from me (I've never gotten around to rating or reviewing the latter).
Even though I'm not nearly as well read in 19th-century American fiction as I ought to be at my age (I'll be 68 next month) I'm even more poorly read in the poetry. I have to confess I haven't read either of Longfellow's long epics, but they're on my to-read shelf.
Mod
Don't feel bad Werner. I'm not as well read on poetry either and like yourself I have a lot of Longfellow on my tbr list as well. And I'll be 60 in December so I think it just goes to prove we're never too old to learn or try something new.
Werner wrote: "It's been so long (decades!) since I read "A Select Party" that I have to admit my memories of it are really hazy. I really should try to work in a reread of it at some point, though I'm not sure w..."I have only read Longfellow's select
poems ten years ago and Wayside
Inn this year. I appreciate it later in life
than if I had read it in my youth.
Mod
Werner wrote: "It's been so long (decades!) since I read "A Select Party" that I have to admit my memories of it are really hazy. I really should try to work in a reread of it at some point, though I'm not sure w..."Werner, I just read your review of Moby Dick with great interest. I was 16 when I read it, so I'm afraid many of the things you pointed out may have slipped by me. I would like to read it again sometime soon - especially now that I know it was inspired in part by Melville's admiration for Hawthorne and his reading of Mosses from an Old Manse! Still, as it is considered one of the greatest classics in American literature, I feel it should be read.
I'm sure you would enjoy Twice-Told Tales! It would be hard to choose which I like better - that or Mosses. But there is at least one story in it which I could almost memorize, I love it so much!
The Deerslayer wasn't really my favorite of the Leatherstocking Tales, but I understand what you mean about it's being more mature. Still The Spy, as arguably the first truly American novel is important in my opinion, and I did enjoy it very much. It also seemed less wordy than some of his other novels...not that I necessarily mind Cooper's wordiness, but it might be more engaging to some readers? (I don't really know - just my thoughts here!)
Mod
I've just added Twice-Told Tales to my to-read shelf! (So the total number of books on that shelf is back up to 400.... Sigh! :-) )
Based on my own reading, my impression is that yes, The Spy is less wordy than some of the Leatherstocking Tales are. I don't know if it's the first "truly American" novel, though it's certainly Cooper's first novel to deserve that designation --Precaution (which I haven't read) is generally conceded to be very "English" in style and inspiration, and is set in England. Other American writers had published novels before this one, but the only earlier one that I've read (though not reviewed --I did rate it, at one star!) is Arthur Mervyn by Charles Brockden Brown. It has American characters in an American setting, and isn't particularly Anglophilic in flavor; but it's not a well-constructed novel at all.
Werner wrote: "I've just added Twice-Told Tales to my to-read shelf! (So the total number of books on that shelf is back up to 400.... Sigh! :-) )"Only 400?! I've got 692 so far and it grows at a much faster rate than my read shelf! 😂
Werner wrote: "Based on my own reading, my impression is that yes, The Spy is less wordy than some of the Leatherstocking Tales are. I don't know if it's the first "truly American" novel, though it's certainly Cooper's first novel to deserve that designation..."
As I understand it, The Spy was the first American novel to gain widespread and lasting popularity, both in America and in Europe.
I've been wanting to try some of Charles Brockden Brown's works and just added Arthur Mervyn to my list, although your rating doesn't give me very high hopes for it! 😅
Mod
Any of Brown's other novels would probably be better starting places than Arthur Mervyn for exploring his work, simply because there'd have to be no direction to go but up. :-) Still, it has its moments; there are a couple of sections there that have to rank among the great comic passages of American literature. (The problem is that they're not intended to be comic; the author is deadly serious, so the reader winds up laughing at him rather than with him!)
Werner wrote: "Meg, you make me feel a little better about my TBR --though, to be sure, I've actually run into a couple of Goodreaders who have a few thousand books on theirs!Any of Brown's other novels would p..."
Yeah, I don't think a lifetime is long enough to read all the good books out there! It seems like in every book I read I come across a reference to at least a couple of other books that sound interesting...it's hopeless! 😅
Now you've really got me curious about Arthur Mervyn! But maybe I'll try something else by him first as you suggest, so I don't get turned off by one of his poorer works.
Mod
I hear you, Meg! (While I don't have any inside information about arrangements in heaven, I'm hoping for good library facilities; and I've always said that I expect to be a librarian there. :-) )
If you read something by Brown sometime and review it, I'll be interested in your take on it.
Early American Literature
Books mentioned in this topic
Precaution (other topics)Arthur Mervyn (other topics)
Twice-Told Tales (other topics)
Mosses from an Old Manse (other topics)
The Deerslayer (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
James Fenimore Cooper (other topics)Nathaniel Hawthorne (other topics)
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (other topics)
Herman Melville (other topics)
Henry David Thoreau (other topics)
