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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK TWELVE - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: LANDSLIDE - February 16th - February 22nd, 2015 - Chapter Eleven - No Spoilers, Please
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For the week of February 16th-February 22nd we are reading Chapter Eleven of Landslide
The twelfth week’s reading assignment is:
Week Twelve - February 16-22
Chapter Eleven - A Thousand Days-pages 315 to 348
Chapter Overview and Summary
A Thousand Days
The Johnson administration, in more subtle ways, continues to worry about how they measure up to the Kennedys, despite widespread popular support and many legislative successes. Poverty remains an issue that threatens to mock Johnson’s agenda, while Vietnam threatens Johnson’s image and gives his critics a hammer. Robert Kennedy and Richard Nixon threaten Johnson’s future. The rise of Reagan marks a resurgence in Republicanism and conservatism. Reagan wins the governorship of California in a landslide, and Democratic control of Congress is threatened. The publication of William Manchester’s The Death of a President reveals tensions between the Kennedy and Johnson families.
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William R. Manchester
I'm struck early on in this chapter at the irony in how history has portrayed JFK and LBJ. Darman points out on pages 316-317 how much more LBJ really did accomplish versus the first 1,000 days of the JFK administration. Yet, one president is much maligned and scrutinized to this day and one is held up with utter reverence. I'm still reading the chapter but I'm supposing this is due to the one big disaster known as Vietnam on LBJ's record which overshadows all else.
It is an interesting phenomenon, Justin. Clearly, LBJ has more accomplishments to his name than JFK, but the times changed quickly and Vietnam.On the other, we have a president who is assassinated and the Kennedys are very keen to develop and protect an image.
I think the riots would have happened under JFK's watch, and I wonder what he would have done...
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Johnson was just unable to remove the war from his image. It is somewhat ironic since Johnson committed to Vietnam only reluctantly, and partly to protect his image. Nor did Johnson have Kennedy's glitz.
Justin wrote: "I'm struck early on in this chapter at the irony in how history has portrayed JFK and LBJ. Darman points out on pages 316-317 how much more LBJ really did accomplish versus the first 1,000 days of..."I too was impressed with that part also, Justin. I remember studying US History at the University and my professor teaching us that really as a president that Kennedy was mediocre -- but that is not how "history" was remembered.
It seems quite reasonable when comparing the records of LBJ and JFK to conclude the Texan accomplished much more than the Boston Brahman. But Vietnam was such a disaster, not just in immediate and direct loses and discredit of the US but also long-term damage to our foreign policy for which we pay even today, that many say it offsets LBJ's domestic accomplishments.
I'm not in agreement with the assessment that Vietnam eclipses the extraordinary domestic record of LBJ's accomplishments at home, even though I agree that Vietnam is (note present tense) a crippling failure of the US.
Like others (and like Darman), I agree that LBJ accomplished more than JFK. That seems inescapable. But one thing he didn't accomplish was the management of his image - at that, JFK and the Kennedys were true masters.I am left with the same feeling I had earlier: LBJ belonged in the Senate, not the White House. The glare of presidential publicity was too much for him. The Senate was just the right size.
LBJ found it much easier to control his image and his power among a small group - 100 senators and, earlier in his life, other moderately sized groups. JFK, on the other hand, was perfect for the huge audience.
I agree that LBJ shined in the senate, but I'm not sure it was all the publicity that made the difference. In the Senate, LBJ was able to be a "worker." That is what he excelled at, getting things done himself. As president (the executive branch) his job description changed. And this new job was not set up for his strengths.
LBJ got things done domestically, but wouldn't you agree that his ultimate results fell well short of his promises? He sold himself as the guy that would fix all the country's problems and lead the US into some kind of economic and social utopia. Despite the bills that were passed, those things did not come to be. Obviously, the disaster of Vietnam contributed negatively to the way he was viewed on foreign policy, but Vietnam seemed to also have a negative impact on the economy at home as well as "The Great Society" as a whole.
I think LBJ oversold what could have been done, even without Vietnam. Then there was Vietnam on top of it. And, again playing to his strengths in a small group:
One of LBJ's great talents was the ability to size up an individual person, figure out what he/she wanted, feared, liked and so on, and use that information to get what he (LBJ) wanted. He did this throughout his career, and it didn't fail until he met the Kennedys.
And then it failed utterly as president: He couldn't go up and talk to and learn about and figure out the American people; still less could he do that with the Vietnamese.
At least with regard to Americans, this is where Reagan shone; although I never liked him, he did have the ability to sense what the great mass of people wanted to hear and feel (and, from what I can tell, he lacked LBJ's one on one abilities).
Steve wrote: "LBJ got things done domestically, but wouldn't you agree that his ultimate results fell well short of his promises? He sold himself as the guy that would fix all the country's problems and lead th..."Yeah, well, did he under-deliver, or over-promise?
I am interested in what you all think about the subtitle of this book: The Dawn of a New America.
No matter what you accomplish in your first term, it seems that the odds are stacked against you in the second term. Deserved or not. Really makes me wonder if we hadn't changed the term limits after FDR if we would have ever had a President be able to last beyond 2 terms? Or even want to.
Kathy wrote: "I am interested in what you all think about the subtitle of this book: The Dawn of a New America."I think maybe the subtitle oversells a little. Was the new America the one LBJ ushered in (or was that a continuation of FDR and Truman?) Or was it the one Reagan ushered in? (if so, the book should be about his presidency).
Or did we have a "new America" at all?
I think change is gradual and varied.
I had honestly overlooked the subtitle. I'm with Peter, I don't see this as a new America whether it was one Johnson brought in or Reagan. Do you think they really "changed politics forever?" That is a line from the Amazon/Goodreads synopsis.
Every day is a New America, Kathy. In fact, new is a tautology. America is new everyday.Reinventing one's self, with little to no regard for History, is the quintessential quality that differentiates America from other nations.
Peter wrote: "I think LBJ oversold what could have been done, even without Vietnam. Then there was Vietnam on top of it. And, again playing to his strengths in a small group:
One of LBJ's great talents was the..."
I agree with your statements about Reagan and LBJ. LBJ really accomplished a lot though he is remembered more for Vietnam which he did not really warm up to in the beginning. Reagan just had a way to act and do what he felt the people wanted which was his strong point due to his acting.
Yeah, it seems the subtitle is a little forced, but I expect the author did not have much choice sometimes.You get a sense LBJ felt "free" with his grand plans to change society, so he went for it. However, grand designs are extremely difficult to handle for a president.
I think that as we get further away from Johnson's presidency, he will get more credit for his real accomplishments.When he decided not to run again, there were kids shouting in the streets "Hey, hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today." People remembered that hostility for a long, long time. Until I read Caro'sThe Passage of Power with The History Book Club I had little appreciation for the man and his accomplishments.
Peter, I fully agree that "he [Reagan] did have the ability to sense what the great mass of people wanted (my italics) to hear and feel." He geared his speeches to that and, for many, was hugely popular as a result. However, in my opinion, this ability did not make him a real leader.
On the other had, Johnson's utopian promises don't reflect well on him either.
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Robert A. Caro
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As far as Johnson - I think just like when we studied Wilson we have to judge them in terms of the time they lived in. I think he was getting carried away in trying to lead the people out of their grief for JFK and wanted to make folks feel that there was hope for them and the country. He seemed to get a little carried away with his metaphors and symbolism for sure (smile).
Martin wrote: "Steve wrote: "LBJ got things done domestically, but wouldn't you agree that his ultimate results fell well short of his promises? He sold himself as the guy that would fix all the country's proble..."Martin, that's an excellent question...did he under deliver or over promise? To me, that's really the theme of Darman's book and something I'll hit on more in my book review.
I think Darman is pointing this out for both political parties. Candidates promise, sometimes with the best of intentions, way more then they can ever deliver in the end.
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Justin wrote: "Martin wrote: "Steve wrote: "LBJ got things done domestically, but wouldn't you agree that his ultimate results fell well short of his promises? He sold himself as the guy that would fix all the c..."Yes. Darman does conclude that there is something unique about the overpromising bit. I'm not so sure that the first candidate to run for office in a democracy isn't the first guilty to promise more than they can deliver. It seems to be an inherent weakness to democracies.
That raises the question of whether it's possible to manage expectations that a candidate creates with promises.
While that may sound reasonable, it may lead to candidates who are not held accountable. At least an over-promising candidate can be held to their lofty words, where a person managing expectations may set the bar lower.
Another factor to take into account is the unforseen. We tend to think of presidential candidates of having more leeway to implement than they actually do. Take Nixon, for instance: politically in his day he was conservative Republican, yet the domestic accomplishments of his administration included establishing the Environmental Protection Agency and passage of the Clean Air and Water acts among other liberal achievements. International affairs is an area where little can be accurately predicted (ISIS?).
Excellent point, Martin. Problems in the rest of the world frequently force a president to make detours. Look at Obama and what he promised in the campaign regarding foreign involvement and sitting down to talk with our enemies.Presidents find the job to be a lot more complicated than they anticipated as candidates.
And Bentley, you are very correct about the need to judge presidents in the context of their own times.
I think LBJ way over promised and then couldn't deliver because of Vietnam. The midterms was the bill coming due. It was going to catch up to him sooner or later.
Regarding the subtitle, I think America was at the dawn of a perceived new age or generation. We were leaving behind WWII and the focus on Europe and its problems and were beginning to look at our own "unlimited" potential and possibilities...
I see that the first thousand days perspective has been discussed a good bit already. It does seem surprising and peculiar that the public (including me) focuses so much on nice sounding cliches, appearances, charm, etc. instead of the long slog involved in turning a big ship around. LBJ had the energy and vision but perhaps not the charm and feel good appearance that the public often is influenced by...and eventually judges leaders by... Will history in time view things more objectively?
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Viet Nam was the albatross around his neck for sure
Page 316:"Kennedy had spoken..."
"Johnson had passed programs..."
Do words speak louder than actions??
Page 320: "...the collapsing urban centers..."How important are perception and timing for a successful presidency?
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Page 332: "...he fled."Is this too harsh to say that LBJ was running from his domestic problems? When things appear wobbly or unclear at home, perhaps it is understandable to suggest that a president is running from his problems. But communicating and getting along with the rest of the world seems like a very high priority and necessity if we are to live in peace with other nations.
Page 333: "...an extended campaign stop..."Perhaps LBJ was campaigning... Certainly any activity can be viewed as an opportunity to score points for a politician. But that doesn't diminish the need to develop relationships beyond our borders.
I don't know how grim the situation in California may have been in the mid-60s, but RR seems to have always found a way to rise above the issues in the eyes of the public and charm them over...(page 337).
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Certainly Vietnam was devastating for LBJ (and we'll never know what it might have done to JFK or RR), but was he really perceived as being devious and crafty (page 342)? Those seem like harsh words for one who not too many months before was riding the crest of the wave...
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Bentley wrote: "Lewis - what are you trying to say with message 32 and 33?"Just seems surprising to me that we assess leaders based on grand statements ("Don't ask what America can do...?") rather than on concrete action. Also, the crumbling urban centers likely did not happen overnight...but the spotlight shining on them happened on LBJ's untimely watch...
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Bentley wrote: "I like that explanation Lewis - that is very interesting (the first part). However - don't you think by the time that JFK came along and LBJ that we had already done that. When did World War II e..."Well, I was thinking that Ike was also a very long WWII shadow/reminder cast across the land. The new faces of JFK-LBJ-RR represented a turning away from the past and a new start to the future.
Page 348: "...so little time."I wonder if it seemed mind boggling to LBJ how quickly his fortunes had turned...or did he think back to his father and figure, "Well, I knew this would happen sooner or later..."
Johnson's health history also put extra pressure on him to accomplish a lot in a limited amount of time. He had a very serious heart attack when he was not quite 47, and said that the men in his family usually died by 65. He made it to 64.The urban decay had been there for a long time, but the race riots really focused attention on it.
Good point. I'd forgotten about his health history. But as someone who descends from a long line of men who check out with coronaries now entering the red zone, I get it.
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64 (1908–1973)
January 23, 1973
OBITUARY
Lyndon Johnson, 36th President, Is Dead; Was Architect of 'Great Society' Program
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES
SAN ANTONIO, Tex., Jan. 22--Lyndon Baines Johnson, 36th President of the United States, died today of an apparent heart attack suffered at his ranch in Johnson City, Tex.
The 64-year-old Mr. Johnson, whose history of heart illness began in 1955, was pronounced dead on arrival at 4:33 P.M. central time at San Antonio International Airport, where he had been flown in a family plane on the way to Brooke Army Medical Center here.
A spokesman at Austin said that Mr. Johnson's funeral would probably be held Thursday at the National City Christian Church in Washington. He said the body would lie in state at the Johnson Library in Austin from noon tomorrow until 8 A.M. Wednesday, with an honor guard, and then would be taken to Washington, where it will lie in state at the Capitol rotunda until the funeral. Mr. Johnson will be buried at the L.B.J. Ranch.
Death came to the nation's only surviving former President as the nation observed a period of mourning proclaimed less than a month ago for former President Harry S. Truman.
A Legacy of Progress
Although his vision of a Great Society dissolved in the morass of war in Vietnam, Mr. Johnson left to the nation a legacy of progress and innovation in civil rights, Social Security, education, housing and other programs attesting to his fundamental affection for his fellow Americans.
At Fort Sam Houston, where Brooke Army Medical Center is situated, flags were hoisted to full staff and then immediately lowered again in respect for the Texan who was thrust into the Presidency on Nov. 22, 1963, when an assassin's bullet took the life of President Kennedy in Dallas.
Ironically, Mr. Johnson died in what appeared to be the waning days of the Vietnam war. The man who won election in 1964 to a full term as President with the greatest voting majority ever accorded a candidate was transformed by that war into the leader of a divided nation.
Amid rising personal unpopularity, in the face of the lingering war and racial strife at home, Mr. Johnson surprised the nation on March 31, 1968, with a television speech in which he announced, "I shall not seek and I will not accept the nomination of my party as your President."
Stage Set for Defeat
He thus renounced an opportunity to cap with a second full term a career in public life that began in 1937 with his election to Congress as an ardent New Dealer and led to the majority leadership of the Senate and to the Vice-Presidency and the Presidency. His renunciation set the stage for Democratic defeat at the polls in 1968.
Two days before Mr. Johnson's death, Richard M. Nixon, the Republican who was elected in 1968, took the oath of office for his second term as President. Mr. Nixon telephoned Mrs. Johnson today at the hospital here to express his sympathy.
At a news briefing tonight in Austin at KTBC, the Johnson family's television and radio station, Tom Johnson, executive vice president of the station, who was also a long-time aide to Mr. Johnson, gave the following account of the former President's death:
At 3:50 P.M., while in his bedroom for his regular afternoon nap, Mr. Johnson called the ranch switchboard and asked for Mike Howard, the head of his Secret Service detail, who was out in a car.
Bill Morrow, the switchboard operator, tried to call Mr. Howard and other Secret Service agents.
The first agents he reached were Ed Nowland and Harry Harris. They raced to the bedroom with a portable oxygen unit.
They found Mr. Johnson lying beside his bed. They said later he had already turned dark blue and appeared to be dead.
Nevertheless, they began trying to revive him. Mr. Nowland administered mouth-to- mouth resuscitation.
Two physicians were telephoned, Col. George McGranahan of Brooke Hospital and Dr. David J. Abbott of nearby Johnson City.
Placed Aboard Plane
Mr. Howard reached the bedroom at 3:55 P.M. and began an external heart massage.
At 4:05 P.M., Mrs. Johnson was called while riding in a car about a block from the L.B.J. Library in Austin, where she has an office. She flew by helicopter from the library to San Antonio.
At 4:19 P.M., Mr. Johnson was placed aboard a family plane, a Beech King Air. Also aboard the twin-engined plane were Dr. Abbott; Mr. Nowland; Mr. Harris; Mrs. Dale Malechek, wife of the ranch foreman, and the pilot, Barney Hulett.
The plane arrived at 4:33 in San Antonio, where Dr. Abbott pronounced the former President dead. At 4:45 P.M., Mrs. Johnson arrived from Austin, about 70 miles away. The ranch is about 45 miles from San Antonio.
At about the same time, Colonel McGranahan arrived at the airport and confirmed the death.
Mrs. Johnson, the former Claudia Alta Taylor, known as Lady Bird, returned to Austin in the company of Mr. Howard, arriving at 6:45 P.M. local time and going to her penthouse apartment at the family broadcasting station.
A short time later, she was joined by Brig. Gen. James Cross, Air Force, retired, a family friend and former pilot of the Presidential plane, Air Force One.
The Johnsons' two daughters, Mrs. Patrick J. Nugent and Mrs. Charles S. Robb, accompanied by their husbands, later met their mother at the ranch. Also present was J. C. Kellam, the general manager of the family business interests.
While they discussed funeral plans, the body of the former President was taken from Brooke Army Medical Center to Austin by the Weed-Corley Funeral Home of Austin.
Mr. Johnson had always made it clear that he wanted to be buried on the family ranch in Johnson City, in a small, walled burial plot about 400 yards from the ranch house, where his father, mother and other relatives had been laid to rest.
Colonel McGranahan said tonight that the former President's death was apparently caused by a coronary thrombosis.
An autopsy performed by Col. L. R. Hieger, chief of pathology at Brooke General Hospital, showed that Mr. Johnson had been suffering from severe coronary arterial disease. Two of three major arteries supplying the heart were completely occluded, Colonel Heiger said, and the third artery was 60 per cent occluded. Further evaluation will be made later, he said.
At a news briefing tonight Tom Johnson said Mrs. Johnson had told him that the former President's health had not altered recently, although she mentioned that he had been quieter than usual.
One of Mr. Johnson's last formal appearances took place last Tuesday in Austin, where he attended the inauguration of Gov. Dolph Briscoe and Lieut. Gov. William P. Hobby. On the ceremonial platform outside the capitol, Mr. Johnson, looking thin, seemed to be enjoying an opportunity to see old friends and shake hands with well-wishers who flocked around him.
Later that day, he took Walter Heller, the former chairman of his Council of Economic Advisers, to Southwest Texas State University, Mrs. Johnson's alma mater, in San Marcos, for a talk to a group of students.
During the question-and-answer session, Mr. Johnson said to the audience, "Come on, now, make your questions quicker, and Walter, you make your answers shorter."
In a discussion of food and meat prices, Mr. Heller predicted a rise of 6 to 7 per cent in meat prices.
"I can tell you what's happening with cattle," Mr. Johnson said. "I paid my dealer $92 a ton for feed. The bill went to $110 a ton and now it's costing me $156 a ton for food."
Last Saturday, joining Mrs. Johnson in her beautification work, the former President went to Ranch Road 1, which runs across the Pedernales River from the L.B.J. Ranch, and planted a redbud tree, a Texas tree that blooms with red flowers. The tree was the first of 100 to be planted along the road.
On that occasion, Mr. Johnson told a friend that he was not feeling very well and said that that was why he had not gone to Washington for the inauguration of President Nixon.
Source: On This Day - January 23, 1973
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When I look at the pictures of LBJ during his presidency, I am struck by how old he looks. I believe he is in his late 50s at this time, and he looks 10-20 years older.
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Just look at the man: (this was Lyndon in 1964!!!!) - he was born in 1908 so in this photo he was 56!!!
And look at McCain:
McCain was born August 29, 1936. And this is McCain now. He is 79 this year. This 79 year old today looks younger than Lyndon Johnson looked when he was about 56 in 1964 when that photo was taken.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Eisenhower in War and Peace (other topics)The Passage of Power (other topics)
The Death of a President: November 20-November 25, 1963 (other topics)
Landslide: LBJ and Ronald Reagan at the Dawn of a New America (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jean Edward Smith (other topics)Robert A. Caro (other topics)
William Manchester (other topics)
Jonathan Darman (other topics)
For the week of February 16th - February 22nd, we are reading Chapter Eleven of Landslide
The twelfth week's reading assignment is:
Week Twelve - February 16 - February 22
Chapter Eleven: A Thousand Days (pages 315-348)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on December 1st.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up February 16th
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Kathy, Jill, Bryan, and Jerome.
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