The History Book Club discussion
PRESIDENTIAL SERIES
>
WE ARE OPEN - WEEK ELEVEN - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: LANDSLIDE - February 9th - February 15th - Chapter Ten - No Spoilers, Please
Mod
However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
Mod
For the week of February 9th-February 15th we are reading Chapter Ten of Landslide
The eleventh week’s reading assignment is:
Week Eleven - February 9 - February 15
Chapter Ten - Like a Winner - pages 283 to 313
Chapter Overview and Summary
Like a Winner
Ronald Reagan speaks at the New England convention for the Federation of Republican Women and criticizes Johnson’s performance. Americans continue to protest the Vietnam War in shocking new ways. Reagan runs for governor of California, with a platform similar to Goldwater’s, and the liability of his acting career.
Mod
Politically, the parties never seem to learn from history. Interesting how Reagan found that he had to learn to appeal to the moderate wing of the Republican party to actually be taken seriously. Luckily for him, he had the communication skills to do just that and convince them of this. But, election after election, it seems like mainly the Republicans think that the winning ticket isn't moderation, but to appeal to the far right of the party.
David wrote: "Politically, the parties never seem to learn from history..."I agree with that- I'm not sure if politicians ever learn from history. "Conventional wisdom" is what they talk about, but it is seldom history. I think both parties believe they have to early on appeal to the base and then duke it out over the moderates or the undecided closer to actual Nomination Conventions. But in the end- any far left or far right group seems to be less than pleased with the party choice nomination.
David and John, you are so correct about the swing to moderation after appealing to the extremes earlier.Even though my political leanings turned out very different from those of my parents, I learned from them to always vote in every election. So many people don't bother voting in the primaries, allowing the more extreme factions to control the nominations.
One thing this book is really showing me is how the old fashioned moderate wing of the Republican party lost out with the rise of Reagan. I wonder how much the influx of former Democrats from the South also changed the nature of the Republican party. Of course, this realignment of voters also affected the Democrats.
It is interesting. I think Reagan and his team learned that you cannot run in a large election from the far right. Possibly they learned from Goldwater...moderate tones, being in the middle tends to win you a general election. I think California was so large that it was like a general election.
I agree with your comments Ann. The South did change the nature of the Republican party. They've been consistent since after Jimmy Carter. I'm learning alot about the early political days of Reagan.
Excellent point Bryan- California has it's varying political demographics much like the US- sometimes large populations can overwhelm smaller towns or rural areas with different political sensibilities- and you can see that in CA. One of the reasons we have the Electoral College.
It really hurt Romney in the last election. He had to veer to the right to win the nomination and then veer back to the middle to compete in the general election. It's didn't work out very well. He seemed untrustworthy.
So true, John and Ann. It was a very smart move on Reagan's part to campaign from the middle. And I think Reagan won the far right and was able to get away with campaigning in the middle.
Keep in mind, folks, that the Reagan majority was really a coalition of a unified Republican party, which by the bye included the religious right, and blue color Democrats.In the inclusion of Christian fundamentalists, Reagan differed with Goldwater who, I believe, saw the potential end of the Republican party by allowing them in the tent. Reagan tolerated them and occasionally made some pronouncement that in effect threw the moral majority a bone.
The funny thing is that we now know the fundamentalist Christians are at the heart of the Tea Party, which simultaneously threatens to split the Republican party, or redefine it by driving out moderates.
Interesting, Martin. I don't think Reagan was ever religious, nor Goldwater. Am I wrong there?
I think you're on the mark. But Reagan did understand the political benefit of having them in the tent, although it appears that his judgment was expedient, where Goldwater saw the long view.
Mod
RR seemed to always come back and gain new life (page 283), but he did work hard at it (page 285), though he always gave the appearance of doing it all so effortlessly.
Mod
I think everybody has made some great comments.
The public loves to hear the idea of "being saved from government" (pages 290, 306)...but a bit ironic to be trumpeted by a politician, and one who grew government quite a bit...
Mod
The result has been unprecedented government debt. Reagan has tripled the Gross Federal Debt, from $900 billion to $2.7 trillion. Ford and Carter in their combined terms could only double it. It took 31 years to accomplish the first postwar debt tripling, yet Reagan did it in eight.
He was absolutely the worst. And the Republicans do not let the facts get in the way of their pontificating. Bring back Ross Perot with his charts.
http://mises.org/library/sad-legacy-r...
Goldwater (for all his extremism) had no patience for the religious fundamentalists. He said"You don't have to be straight in order to shoot straight"
and
"Every good Christian should kick Jerry Falwell in the ass".
Whatever else he was, he was honest. Something that neither LBJ nor Reagan was.
Mod
"Young female supporters were encouraged to be "Reagan Girls," lithe young hostesses at campaign events. "Reagan Girls represent the young, wholesome, vivacious, natural, all-American girl," a flyer for the position advised. Their uniforms -- "selected by Mrs. Ronald Reagan" and available only in waist sizes under twenty-five inches -- need to be kept immaculate at all times. A clean and neat appearance is a must," the Reagan Girls were warned. "Giving out phone number and address, and making dates are not permitted during appearances."" (page 304)I guess my feminist side is cringing at the thought of these restrictions. Were the men at campaign events also asked not to date or give out phone numbers and addresses?
Francie, at this point in history I would bet that male pages and assistants did have similar guidelines. This type of thing was fading but not gone. It is interesting that we still see some stringent guidelines applied to some female roles I am thinking of pagent participants, professional cheerleaders, etc. Whether they are followed may be another discussion. I have to admit the quote you shared kind of hit me to and I wondered if there was a double standard at work or if young men of similar position had to follow similar guidelines.
That rubbed me very wrong too, Francie. On the same page (304), Reagan called his wife "Mommy" in a meeting with advisers.Yuck.
At the same time, Nancy was a real political asset to her husband.
Did it bother anyone that the political consulting firm Spencer-Roberts played such a big role in molding Reagan into a viable politician, or is that just the way things are done? Wasn't it convenient that Reagan had wealthy supporters willing to pay for the consulting firm as well as his exploratory campaign moves(p. 292-293)?
In practice, Reagan was much more pragmatic than his rhetoric suggested he would be. I thought this remark was very revealing. Stu Spencer said," He was obsessed with one thing... the Communist threat. He has conservative tendencies on other issues but he can be practical." (p. 294)
He was obsessed with Communism, but he also worried about nuclear annihilation, and as president he was able to negotiate an arms reduction treaty with the Soviets.
As for tax cuts, his actual record as president was a mixed bag. See this CNN article "Taxes: What people forget about Reagan http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/08/news/...
Those who mythologize him forget his pragmatic accommodations.
Wouldn't it be nice if campaign rhetoric actually came closer to practical political policy? Or are we getting further and further away from that?
Mod
And it's true that Reagan had a pragmatic streak. Most of his real accomplishments in ending the Cold War had more to do with diplomacy than rhetoric or militarism.
You are right, Jerome. To use Darman's term, people crave the "myths."
Mod
Is it offensive - I have to ask myself why was it not then. But then this was probably viewed as a honor as distasteful as this sounds now.
Mod
And it's true that Reagan h..."
Good comment Jerome.
@Ann - there is an old book: The Hidden Persuaders which is as true now as it was then.
by Vance Packard (no photo)
"Did it bother anyone that the political consulting firm Spencer-Roberts played such a big role in molding Reagan into a viable politician, or is that just the way things are done?"You know, Ann, there's the old saw that if you don't get elected, then all is for naught, or something like that. And especially in the age of media proliferation, presidential candidates have to be shaped and molded to the various media.
Reagan was not a print guy. Assuming I recollect correctly, he gave few interviews to print reporters. He was groomed for TV and radio, electronic media, which give more control to the person using them than print does.
There's also the use of proxies, such as those in the administration who "leak" the authoritative line to media.
"Wasn't it convenient that Reagan had wealthy supporters willing to pay for the consulting firm as well as his exploratory campaign moves(p. 292-293)?"
Stop the presses, Ann. Money makes the world go 'round.
Aw, gosh, Martin. I was being sarcastic about the convenience of those wealthy supporters. I know how the game is played.However, it does seem to me that Reagan received a lot more "grooming" than most candidates. He is in such contrast to Johnson, who insisted on controlling everything. And, as you say, Reagan was already media savvy as far as video was concerned. He seemed to need more help with the message itself.
Yeah. Another empty suit, pretty much.
Ann wrote: "Aw, gosh, Martin. I was being sarcastic about the convenience of those wealthy supporters. I know how the game is played.However, it does seem to me that Reagan received a lot more "grooming" tha..."
Didn't Reagan always call Nancy "Mother" or am I thinking of someone else?
I wouldn't be surprised if all candidates (then and now) get more grooming than we realize. Not only can the consultants/party leaders mold you to look better, they can also destroy you in a heartbeat.
What did everyone think of them ignoring Maureen and Reagan's first family? Again, the consultants/party leaders will do their best to portray their candidate a certain way. I do think, though, that in today's technological society that is played out everyday in social media, they will have a harder time keeping their candidates "under control" and under their watchful eye. Case in point, Palin. But in Reagan's era, they were still able to put on a show for the public.
Martin wrote: ""Did it bother anyone that the political consulting firm Spencer-Roberts played such a big role in molding Reagan into a viable politician, or is that just the way things are done?",..."To me, it seems "just the way things are done."
I loved this line by Bill Roberts (Spencer-Roberts) on taking Reagan as a client, "We are mercenaries." (page 294)
yeah, it didn't bother me to bring in professionals. Publicists were even used in the turn of the last century and Wilson used one during WWI.
Teri wrote: "Ann wrote: "Aw, gosh, Martin. I was being sarcastic about the convenience of those wealthy supporters. I know how the game is played.However, it does seem to me that Reagan received a lot more "g..."
I was saddened at the way Reagan's first family was treated. How heartbreaking it must have been for Maureen.
Mod
Lot's of interesting comment from this chapter. Spencer-Roberts did a good job of playing to Reagan's audience and his strengths - certainly his charisma, street-smarts and folksy attitude. Unlike Goldwater, he had the demeanor of a winner acted the successful politician brilliantly. (Pg 304). "Like a stage play in NY and then we'll take it out of town...if you screw up, only a small number of people will see it, and if it's good we can keep it."This chapter did nothing to dispel my perception of Reagan as vacuous and yet for all that it worked. I too wonder how he will stand the long term time of history.
Bentley wrote: "Yes quite ironic Lewis - from the Mies Institute:The result has been unprecedented government debt. Reagan has tripled the Gross Federal Debt, from $900 billion to $2.7 trillion. Ford and Carter ..."
Don't forget that his own VP George H. W. Bush called Reagan's trickle down theory "voodoo economics". He was right on the money there.
Page 309: "He never played the bad guy."Do we vote for the myth...or did people somehow transfer RR's screen image to who he was in real life...
Page 312: "He was eager to show that he was no radical."RR was such an upbeat charmer that could talk tough on Communism, move to the center, and perhaps many people didn't notice...or chose to believe the rhetoric...
Mod
The result has been unprecedented government debt. Reagan has tripled the Gross Federal Debt, from $900 billion to $2.7 trillion. ..."
Very true.
Mod
RR was such an upbeat charmer that could talk tough on Communism, move to the center, and perhaps many people didn't notice...or chose to be..."
I think Reagan's speeches lulled voters' senses - in a way hypnotic - they liked to watch him.
Charmer is true, Lewis. I was reading some Reagan oral histories and Mike Deaver, a long associate of Reagan, talked about his greatest skill is just working the crowds...
Mod
Francie wrote: ""Young female supporters were encouraged to be "Reagan Girls," lithe young hostesses at campaign events. "Reagan Girls represent the young, wholesome, vivacious, natural, all-American girl," a fly..."And in another related sign of how times have changed - the first story about Reagan's speech to Republican women in Boston. He could actually get away with calling them "gals."
Sorry to be so late folksSo I will make some comments on your well thought out and interesting remarks but the most overwhelming, to me, thing that shone through in this chapter was RR's continuing need to be sure that he could make a living.
His need to be sure before leaving Death Valley Days.
I got the impression that he was the movie idol who didn't offend his audience.
That a fellow with this lack of willingness to take reasonable & small risk should have been President is a bit scary.
I don;t remember this time so well. I think he may have just spent the money to keep all content. And there has not been, to my memory since Eisenhower (maybe Ford - I am a Ford fan) a Republican who had any real sense of fiscal responsibility.
I still think from time to time Mr. Darman is writing as if for a periodical - to keep interest.
Bryan wrote: "It is interesting. I think Reagan and his team learned that you cannot run in a large election from the far right. Possibly they learned from Goldwater...moderate tones, being in the middle tends..."I think too we have to remember what California was at that time. Easterners arriving constantly building the population of what was a much emptier state early in the century. Many progressive and liberals from New York that I can remember.
Also I think we should remember the attraction of Reagan to the ladies and the difficult fight between Brown and Yorty for the nomination.
Jerome wrote: "I don't think campaign rhetoric ever really had much to do with "practical" policy, Ann. People don't want to hear about compromises and realistic, unsavory solutions. And it's true that Reagan h..."
I would think it had to do also with the inability of the USSR to create the industrial wealth that we could with our capitalism to be able to be competitive - especially in terms of productivity of military and other goods.
Bentley wrote: "Francie wrote: ""Young female supporters were encouraged to be "Reagan Girls," lithe young hostesses at campaign events. "Reagan Girls represent the young, wholesome, vivacious, natural, all-Ameri..."This was a different time. In the 1970s I was a member of Rotary International (a very good group that helped eradicate polio in developing nations among other things) that at the time admitted only men and referred to the members as Rotarians and their wife as "Rotaryanns" - not cool with my wife but often to many very acceptable.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Hidden Persuaders (other topics)Landslide: LBJ and Ronald Reagan at the Dawn of a New America (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Vance Packard (other topics)Jonathan Darman (other topics)
For the week of February 9th - February 15th, we are reading Chapter Ten of Landslide
The eleventh week's reading assignment is:
Week Eleven - February 9 - February 15
Chapter Ten: Like a Winner (pages 283-313)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on December 1st.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up February 9th
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Kathy, Jill, Bryan, and Jerome.
Welcome,
~Jerome
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Also the citation thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Introduction Thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Table of Contents and Syllabus
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please. We will be adding to this thread as we read along.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Landslide - What Do I Do Next?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...