2015 ToB Competition Discussion Showing 351-400 of 1,076

[Lark]

The experience of reading my most hated book from 2014 (Adam) followed immediately by one of my favorites (Silence Once Begun) has me totally energized by TOB again--I went to the library today and came out with Wittgenstein Jr, The Bone Clocks, A Brave Man Seven Storeys Tall: A Novel, and A Brief History of Seven Killings...and also with the weird idea that I was going to read all of them before they're due. Clearly there are not many TOB people in my little town because they were all right on the shelf.

[Drew]

Poingu wrote: "The experience of reading my most hated book from 2014 (Adam) followed immediately by one of my favorites (Silence Once Begun) has me totally energized by TOB again--I went to the library today and..."

Poingu, I'm having the opposite experience. I was excited when the short list came out and saw my library had most of the books but now that I want them, they seem to be checked out. Could there be another TOB person in town besides my boss and me? How can I find this person? Is there a local "missed connections" feature somewhere? Enquiring minds want to know!

[Juniper]

drew -- you should post an SOS on the library's bulletin board. :)

[Beth]

My library switched operating systems and in the process my library holds disappeared! The HORROR! Fortunately i am next on each list and have other books to read. 12 down, 4 to go!

[Ellen]

I was holed up all weekend with a dozen friends doing our annual 19th c. novel adaptation weekend -- this year was an Austen year and we watched 3 versions of Sense & Sensibility and 3 of Persuasion. Anyway, it kept me from being able to post to say how much I enjoy the discussion of what makes a book a "good" or "great" book, and also, what makes it "literary fiction" as opposed to just plain fiction. This is a topic that's come up over and over in my book club that reads the book, starting when we read Lolita, if I recall correctly. No conclusions have ever been reached and there may not be a universal definition, anyway.

Poingu, I love this: "I'm also trying to figure out why I have no such snooty superior judgments about genre fiction, which I can enjoy unabashedly and not care whether I've read the same book a million times before." It's so absolutely true. I don't look for originality when I'm reading British Scotland Yard procedurals, or Scandinavian crime fiction. I'm reading those books because I love their conventions and don't really want them to be different.

But reading a book like All the Light We Cannot See, which has been universally beloved, a best seller, and touted as literary fiction, I want to see something new brought to the table, and I didn't. I enjoyed it -- but it didn't read as great to me because I'd seen most of it before.

Janet -- last week by coincidence I was listening to Colorless Tsukuri... in the car while reading Silence Once Begun and was totally struck by their similarities. I liked them both a lot, but I'd probably give the edge to the Murakami.

I'm reading Station Eleven now and will probably finish today. I really like it. So far, the books I've liked best are Station Eleven and Silence Once Begun, but I still think An Untamed State leaves them in the dust. But of course, I can't say I ENJOYED An Untamed State -- but it just seems, so far, to be the closest thing to greatness that I've read. I would be unhappy if All the Light...were to win over it.

And Topher, it was you who predicted The Good Lord Bird for the win! You should win SOMETHING for your prescience.

[Janet]

Ellen wrote: "I was holed up all weekend with a dozen friends doing our annual 19th c. novel adaptation weekend -- this year was an Austen year and we watched 3 versions of Sense & Sensibility and 3 of Persuasio..."

Ellen, I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding both An Untamed State and All the Light You Cannot see.

Did you finish the Murakami? That book drove me insane!

[Lark]

Ellen wrote: "I was holed up all weekend with a dozen friends doing our annual 19th c. novel adaptation weekend -- this year was an Austen year and we watched 3 versions of Sense & Sensibility and 3 of Persuasio..."

Ellen, this tradition sounded so amazing to me that I did that stalker-ish thing and looked at your profile. Anyone who gives Rumer Godden and Erich Kästner five stars, or even reads those authors, needs to be listened to carefully, which means I must give Untamed State another try in spite of my extreme prejudice against books about women in peril.

Last night my book club discussed A Tale for the Time Being and midway through the conversation I realized how weirdly similar Ozeki's novel is to Silence Once Begun--among other things because it's about an enigmatic central character from Japan who fascinates another character in the book, one who happens to have the same name as the author. For some reason I loved Ball's book and disliked Ozeki's, though, another example of my incoherent reading biases. I haven't read the Murakami yet.

[Ellen]

I didn't dislike A Tale For the Time Being, but I did find it, again, a "pleasant" read with nothing much to recommend it, I'm sorry to say. I did occasionally actively dislike the voice of the Japanese girl, which seemed cutesy to me. I may, however, have missed the entire point, since someone told me that the point was supposed to have been (spoiler alert for those who may not have read it) that the diary itself was really written by the main character, i.e. that the girl was the younger self of the author/main character. I have to say I missed that completely, perhaps because I'm a dufus. We're reading it for book club in a month or so, so we'll see what others say.

And I didn't love Silence Once Begun, but I liked it a whole lot.

Yes, Janet, I did finish the Murakami. I think I can genuinely say that I loved it. I take it you didn't? I'm sorry to hear that --

Poingu, the only truly maternal act I ever remember my mother executing was to steer me towards adult books that were still thematically ok for children when I was 9 or 10 and had outgrown the children's section (this was a million years ago, way before the era of YA and endless mass-produced series for every age group). The first authors she gave me were Rumer Godden and Mary Stewart, with Jane Eyre tucked in there as well.

[Ellen]

Oh, by the way, Poingu -- would you have found it more or less amazing if I'd been describing the year we did the works of Mrs. Gaskell? Cranford, Wives & Daughters, and North & South....with breaks for tea each afternoon and a truly obscene amount of food. And score sheets.

[Janet]

Ellen, I gave Colorless Tsukuru three stars. I didn't hate it but it bothered me that one of the central storylines was left hanging. Sort of write your own ending. I guess I'm something of a pessimist because I didn't see it ending well while other readers expressed belief in a more positive outcome.

[Lark]

Ellen wrote: "I may, however, have missed the entire point, since someone told me that the point was supposed to have been (spoiler alert for those who may not have read it) that the diary itself was really written by the main character."

Whaa? I have to say I didn't get that about the novel at all! I have to rethink this.

I've never read a thing by Elizabeth Gaskell although "North and South" always comes up on my Goodreads recommendations and I'm a super-fan of George Eliot. I need to rectify that.

My first Rumer Godden book was The Doll's House. About 15 years ago I was reading it aloud to my little girl without knowing much about the author, and along the way I discovered this amazing writer. The final pages were so wrenchingly sad, a real shock to have that unexpected degree of emotion for what I thought was a book about dolls, that the experience of reading it has stayed with me as much as anything I've ever read.

Ok time to say something about TOB contenders....I am very much enjoying A Brave Man Seven Storeys Tall! I think part of my enjoyment is that the writing is a bit clunky. I don't know if the author meant it but the language to me sounds like someone trying very hard to write terrific English and it gives the novel a curious and comic air that I'm enjoying a lot, sort of like a Gary Shteyngart novel.

[Drew]

Ellen wrote: "I didn't dislike A Tale For the Time Being, but I did find it, again, a "pleasant" read with nothing much to recommend it, I'm sorry to say. I did occasionally actively dislike the voice of the Ja..."

I, too, completely missed that the narrator was the same person as the diarist and, looking back on it, it doesn't seem that way at all. Didn't the narrator go to some trouble to track the diarist down to see how her story ended? Or am I misremembering?

I just started Wittgenstein Jr. last night and am enjoying it so far, unlike most others (it seems). I do work in academia so maybe I'm predisposed to like books set there. I also read the Wikipedia entry on Wittgenstein which I think someone on the list recommended. I think that helped too. And there's lots of white space so if I get bogged down, I know it will be over soon. ;^)

[Ellen]

I don't know if it's absolute -- like I said, I missed it completely -- but then other people I discussed it with made it seem like it was obvious. I couldn't have even blamed my lack of seeing it on skimming, since I listened to it (which may have contributed to my perception of the cloying nature of the voice of the young girl).

Poingu, I hope you've read In This House of Brede and China Court. They're my favorite Rumor Godden books.

[Lark]

Ellen wrote: "Poingu, I hope you've read In This House of Brede and China Court. They're my favorite Rumor Godden books. "

I own them both but they are just sitting there, a little musty, and feeling neglected, I'm sure...

Ellen, I think my TBR from you alone is at about 9 books now, starting with, hmm, last year's TOB dark horse, The People in the Trees

[AmberBug]

Poingu wrote: "Ellen wrote: "Poingu, I hope you've read In This House of Brede and China Court. They're my favorite Rumor Godden books. "

I own them both but they are just sitting there, a little musty, and feel..."


Love, love, LOVED The People in the Trees! I'm reading her new one A Little Life now and loving it THAT much more. Sorry, way off topic.

[jess]

I loved Tale for the Time Being, read it with a book club, discussed it many times, went to see Ozeki talk about it, and never got the impression that they were the same person. Did the dad erase her memory and then let her go free in the US with a new adopted family? I mean, I guess the wrap up portion of the book indicates that there is potential for different versions of reality, but I remember Nao going to college in Canada for history or something, and Ruth's family was from the US? I.... feel like I strongly disagree that they are the same person? But nothing is certain, I guess. I wish I could text old Jiko to ask her about it.

I am so fascinated by how much people feel "meh" about this year's TOB selections. I wonder if the judges can change our minds.

[Beth]

I have been meh on some of the books in this year's tourney, but I think it's true each year. The years I followed have not always included a book I've loved like The Orphan Master's Son, but I usually come away with a couple I'm glad I read and a plethora of books to add to the tbr stack. This year, with 3 books to go I'm pulling for A Brief History of Seven Killings. I'm also looking forward to judgments on books like Wittgenstein Jr. and A Silence Once Begun. When are the brackets being released?

[[deleted user]]

Kerry wrote: "Ohren,

I completely agree that the trend towards sexual abuse of various sorts being a weighty topic is not, in my view, a welcome one. It is, of course, an emotionally heavy topic, but that is n..."

I find this rather baffling. So, books like An Untamed State are just catching a trend? Authors are just throwing rape around to make themselves more legit? Really?

[Lark]

Shannon wrote: "I find this rather baffling. So, books like An Untamed State are just catching a trend? Authors are just throwing rape around to make themselves more legit? Really? "

I haven't read all of Untamed State. I just want to comment that I sometimes wonder whether books published with women as central characters are still skewed toward portraying women-as-victim, rather than women-as-strong-people, even though more women authors are getting published than ever before.

Obviously a lot of great literature has abuse of women at its core as a theme, where it's clearly fully justified (e.g. Beloved). With other books I feel a little bit on the fence about whether sexual violence has been given the respect it deserves as a theme. I don't even know what I mean by that, except that when I read "All the Birds Singing" and "Tale for the Time Being" and for that matter "Room" from a couple of years ago, each time I had the thought of "not again" in my head. For me, the importance of these stories didn't justify the amount of victimization of women that each of these books foisted on their characters. This is very tricky and personal and subjective but I personally felt very let down that the strong, weird sheep herder in the first chapter of All the Birds Singing turned out to be yet another victim of outrageous sexual abuse...why couldn't she just be a woman with some other kind of past for a change?

[April]

Poingu wrote: "Shannon wrote: "I find this rather baffling. So, books like An Untamed State are just catching a trend? Authors are just throwing rape around to make themselves more legit? Really? "

I haven't rea..."

Perhaps because rape culture is so pervasive in Western society that the 'impact' made by such stories are important for people to read and understand. Further I don't think that female characters with sexual abuse as a part of their past necessarily negates their strength of character.

Obviously a book isn't legit just because it employs sexual abuse or assault in the plot or characters past - but again, art imitates life and maybe it's becoming a 'trend' because as a society we're staring to look deeper at the problems that we have. I didn't find the writing (or the strength of the characters) in 'All the Birds Singing' or 'An Untamed State' any less powerful because of the sexual abuse 'literary device' being used.

[Ohenrypacey]

Poingu you are echoing my exact thoughts on the matter. For any given story, told by any given author, the inclusion of rape/molestation/abuse may be an essential element to the story being told, but....and it's a big one as far as I'm concerned...it's become so prevalent not just as a theme, but with depictions that are sometimes so graphic as to seem gratuitous in some books.
Shannon, I think it's tricky to accuse any given author of doing this, but author's make choices, and if the 'important', 'weighty' 'talked about' books trend in that direction then it would absolutely not surprise me this is the case.
Again, I would never suggest that this minimizes the issue, but as others have said, when, as a reader, one pauses and thinks "here it comes" or "oh no, not again" one begins to wonder whether it's an effective device any longer.
I know that for my part, i am unlikely to read An Untamed State or All the Birds Singing now that I know.

[April]

Ohenrypacey wrote: "Poingu you are echoing my exact thoughts on the matter. For any given story, told by any given author, the inclusion of rape/molestation/abuse may be an essential element to the story being told, b..."

So because there's a 'prevalence' of authors writing about rape culture in one way or another - it's no longer effective in making commentary on rape culture? I can't wrap my head around it. Is it desensitization?

[April]

Ohenrypacey wrote: "Poingu you are echoing my exact thoughts on the matter. For any given story, told by any given author, the inclusion of rape/molestation/abuse may be an essential element to the story being told, b..."

Also, you're missing out on a great piece of feminist literature and an excellent commentary on mental health/PTSD by skipping 'An Untamed State'.

[[deleted user]]

Ohenrypacey wrote: "Again, I would never suggest that this minimizes the issue, but as others have said, when, as a reader, one pauses and thinks "here it comes" or "oh no, not again" one begins to wonder whether it's an effective device any longer."

The assumption that sexual abuse is a "device" is minimization. I'd echo April's sentiments on reading An Untamed State...it's hard to look at that novel and see rape as a device.

[Sherri]

An Untamed State and All the Birds, Singing would make a really interesting matchup. All the Birds is so subtle and ambiguous and An Untamed State is so in-your-face and leaves nothing to the imagination. All the Birds engaged my brain, but left my heart untouched, while An Untamed State required nothing intellectually, but required every ounce of emotional energy I could find to finish it.

[Juniper]

Sherri wrote: "An Untamed State and All the Birds, Singing would make a really interesting matchup..."

i was thinking the same thing, sherri!

[[deleted user]]

Sherri wrote: "An Untamed State and All the Birds, Singing would make a really interesting matchup. All the Birds is so subtle and ambiguous and An Untamed State is so in-your-face and leaves nothing to the imagi..."

Agreed! Though I hope it's in one of the later rounds since I'm a fan of both.

[Janet]

I agree with April and Shannon regarding An Untamed State. The author draws on her own personal experience of rape so to call it a literary device is definitely minimization. It is rare to find a praiseworthy book that does not involve some type of tragedy....without conflict there is no plot. What some have said about rape "oh no, here it comes" I felt similar with All the Light You Cannot See...."oh no, another holocaust book"....or "oh no, another child abuse book" or "oh no, another atrocities of war book". Just about every book on the shortlist could be discounted in this way.

[Kerry]

@Shannon,

First, I would say that my favorite book published in 2014 dealt quite uncomfortably, but brilliantly, with sexual abuse. A Girl is a Half-formed Thing is amazingly good and original.

Second, yes, it is just like Holocaust novels, a point I made in my original agreement with Poingu. Some of the greatest books are Holocaust/war/rape novels. But so are some of the worst. As others have already said, it would be difficult to say whether any particular author was intentionally seeking to add gravitas by setting his novel in, say, WW II, but the proliferation of such novels suggests that there is, at minimum, an unconscious bias towards Holocaust/war/rape. And why wouldn't there be? That's why, also for example, apocalypse fiction.

Third, I haven't read An Untamed State and never mentioned it as an example. I wouldn't know.

Fourth, the question in the end is whether the scene was necessary in advancing an original, worthwhile view, idea, emotional reaction in the audience, or was it unnecessary?

Fifth, rape scenes are extremely uncomfortable, at best, so many of us only want to go through that if there is a point. Rape is bad. I know that. Is the author bringing something more to the table? This is sort of a repeat of point four, but not entirely and, even if it is, it is a big deal. Maybe some people actually enjoy rape scenes. I definitely do not.

I hope that helps clarify my views.

[Sam]

Janet wrote: "I agree with April and Shannon regarding An Untamed State. The author draws on her own personal experience of rape so to call it a literary device is definitely minimization. It is rare to find a ..."

I wholeheartedly agree with Shannon, April, and Janet on this point. Certainly there *are* stories that use violence against women as a plot device, and they're probably not very good books. But rather than discounting whole swathes of books, I'd rather be open to each story and judge it on its own merits.

Also, when Roxane Gay's wearing her non-fiction hat, her cultural commentary wrestling with a host of issues, including sexual violence, shows that she's sensitive and thoughtful about these concerns. And speaking of rape as a device, see her article about the Game of Thrones TV episode here: http://www.salon.com/2014/04/21/game_...

[Lark]

This is such a tough topic and I really appreciate the way everyone is navigating it so respectfully.

There may not ever be enough stories that increase people's understanding of the systemic or individual abuse of women--and of course these themes are critical for fiction to explore.

But I don't like the feeling I'm having, in the middle of Euphoria by Lily King, that something bad is probably going to happen to the main character because she's a woman out in the middle of nowhere doing what she loves.

Just now in my reading life I crave strong female characters who have achieved their strength by other means than being a survivor of abuse, and who have fearlessly navigated the world, and who have not been punished for being women. It's a little hard to find books like this! Even Dept of Speculation fell for me in the category of women-as-victim--although there weren't any profound violences to the main character, she felt very oppressed and almost stifled as a character, to me, by her gender.

[Janet]

I read Euphoria and I think what you're describing is just the author building suspense. Remember this is supposedly Margaret Mead and she is in a third world country that is fraught will all kinds of dangers. To represent otherwise would be fantasy. As a woman who has traveled alone to foreign countries, I have to say that if you conduct yourself abroad as you do here in the U.S. you're probably asking for trouble. Even here, if we conduct ourselves with the same freedom as men, we are asking for trouble. Do I think that's right? No, but I do think it's reality.

[Kerry]

I just wanted to add that, as a matter of statistics, it is quite unfortunately the case that, in realistic fiction, a shockingly large number of female characters will have suffered some form of sexual violence. I am less likely to be put off by back story or off-camera events than graphic depictions. Of course, sometimes the story demands we be confronted by the full horror of rape (or other violence). In that case, just like atrocities on war, genocide, etcetera, I have nothing against an author who includes that element. However, it is guaranteed the book will be less 'enjoyable' and, personally, I will tend to avoid it unless I know it is high quality literature.

The use of sex and violence is probably a good example of overuse to draw an audience (to be edgy) rather than necessary. However, I haven't watched it or read the article Janet references, which I will now.

[Kerry]

Sorry, I should have said the article that Sam references.

[Kerry]

Sam, thanks for the link to the Roxane Gay article on the overuse / misuse of rape / sexual violence as a narrative device in fiction (television fiction in her article). I completely agree with the points she made in that piece.

For those who would like to understand my own position, that's probably the best thing to read to get my perspective.

[[deleted user]]

Kerry wrote: "I just wanted to add that, as a matter of statistics, it is quite unfortunately the case that, in realistic fiction, a shockingly large number of female characters will have suffered some form of s..."

Maybe...1 out of 5? The statistics are shockingly large in reality, too.

This is more to the conversation in general, not necessarily to Kerry: I think we're all free to choose books based on our own comfort levels. That being said, I don't think it's fair to throw an umbrella over an entire topic just because it's an uncomfortable one, particularly if the umbrella accuses authors of using a device to win awards and we've chosen not to read from it.

[Kerry]

Shannon, I realize my sentence was ambiguous. I actually meant to convey that real-world sexual violence is shockingly common, so realistic fiction would reflect that. We are agreed on that.

My last comment on this is that great fiction often, if not always, makes us uncomfortable. But making someone uncomfortable does not mean you have made great fiction (or art, to try to tie into A Brave Man Seven Storeys Tall).

[AmberBug]

Kerry wrote: "Shannon, I realize my sentence was ambiguous. I actually meant to convey that real-world sexual violence is shockingly common, so realistic fiction would reflect that. We are agreed on that.

My l..."

Yes, but giving you ANY feeling does matter. Anger, pain, happiness, shock... when a book makes you feel something, it must have done something right.

I think it is considerably easier to write a book that can create discomfort over comfort. Many times a book that creates a feeling of "fuzzy, warm, soft and comfort" isn't recognized as anything but fluff.

I'd love for someone to counter with books that made them feel this way but also was given merit in the literary world, I'm actually interested to see what people come up with. After debating this over in my head, I'm having a hard time coming up with any myself (but I'm sure they exist).

[Lark]

I think it is considerably easier to write a book that can create discomfort over comfort. Many times a book that creates a feeling of "fuzzy, warm, soft and comfort" isn't recognized as anything but fluff.

I agree. It's extremely difficult to write (and get published) a novel that is gently beautiful but not sentimental. Penelope Fitzgerald comes to mind but here's me raising my hand to say I've never been able to get through even one of her extremely thin books. If there is a book like this on the TOB list this year I haven't found it yet.

Here is a link to a NYRB article on Fitzgerald:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archi...

[Topher]

The idea that An Untamed State uses rape and violence as a "literary device" is really out there, and entirely incorrect. I'd suggest reading some of Roxanne Gay's essays before jumping to such a conclusion.

I'm not even going to get to the troubling assertion that a reader could be troubled by an "oh no here it comes again!" feeling. You're supposed to be bothered. Not all writing is there to make you comfortable, and that some people think it should speaks to them, and not the writer.

[AmberBug]

Topher wrote: "The idea that An Untamed State uses rape and violence as a "literary device" is really out there, and entirely incorrect. I'd suggest reading some of Roxanne Gay's essays before jumping to such a c..."

Exactly! Looking back on all the books I read last year, I couldn't find one that didn't have something uncomfortable in it.

I wanted to challenge those who think we are on a edge of some kind of "violence trend" to give us an example of a book that they'd rather see in the TOB this year that doesn't make you uncomfortable.

[Janet]

I would even go so far as to say that if a book doesn't make you uncomfortable, it's not making you think.

[Lark]

Literally no one said Untamed State uses rape as a literary device.

The objection I have is that sexual violence or sexual repression of women should not be used in books as a go-to plot point. I think, admittedly in a very anecdotal and subjective way, that sexual violence is sometimes used when not necessary or germane to the plot. I wonder at the way I've almost come to expect it in novels with strong female characters. While sexual violence as a theme can be empowering and enriching it can also leave an impression that women are in need of saving.

Scenes of sexual violence when not required by a book's themes make me uncomfortable, -not- because I don't want to read about violent things, but because they leave me with the impression that writers believe all women everywhere are victims, or that the author can't imagine a woman character who is not influenced by fear of rape, or can't imagine a book having a compelling forward narrative drive without sexual violence.

Two books on the 2015 TOB list deal with extreme sexual violence toward women. But others are affected by this same oppression of female characters through sexual dominance. I found Dept of Speculation to be weirdly and unrealistically denying of female empowerment. Even Station Eleven is in that category for me. Sure there is this gnarly knife throwing female, but Mandel also has made the obligatory tired trope of sexual enslavement of women by all the men of one town a key plot element.

I'm not saying it's a trend. It's a long standing issue I have, ever since reading A Thousand Acres with its completely unnecessary and hysterical reveal, near the end of the book, of incestuous rape. It's an otherwise lovely and arresting book and it was the first time I had the feeling I'm complaining about, of sexual violence being used in a manipulative way in a novel, rather than in a way that is organic and informative and respectful--the way Untamed State is.

[Ellen]

"...when a book makes you feel something, it must have done something right."
I don't know if I agree with this. After all, The Da Vinci Code made me feel something -- it made me feel like throwing it, and Dan Brown, against the wall for its arrogant ignorance and bad writing for which he had earned a gazillion dollars, when there were careful, talented authors writing in the same "intellectually-based" thriller genre who had done their research, knew something about their subjects, and wrote gripping thrillers with some meat to them that no one read.

Ahem.

Anyway, many books make me feel something, but that doesn't make them have done something right.

I understand where those of you are coming from regarding that "oh, no, not again" feeling when a book you're reading suddenly veers into potentially hackneyed territory (we coined a phrase some years ago of the "stealth Holocaust book", like, say, Everything is Illuminated, where you think it's about one thing and suddenly it's a Holocaust book and you don't know how you got there). The first time I ever felt that incipient eyeroll was in reading Wally Lamb's She's Come Undone, which felt like a paint-by-numbers set, as if he set out to write a book about "women's issues" and then ticked one after another off a list: sexual abuse in childhood, check. Body image/fat issues, check. Rape, check.

But there are books and there are books. An Untamed State is about violence against women, yes, but it uses that for a metaphor for so many things that it's too bad to reduce it to that. There are plenty of books out there that use it for prurient or gratuitious or self-serving reasons -- but this so isn't one of them.

Finished Station Eleven last night and really, really liked it. Can it win ToB? I don't think so, but it's the first book I've read for the Tournament that I really, really liked and would recommend to others. Started Annihilation; good so far.

[Ellen]

Oh! Great novels that are gently beautiful! All of Jane Austen, for starters. To Kill a Mockingbird. A.S. Byatt's Possession. The Time Traveller's Wife (I'm aware I may get a lot of arguement on this last one).

I'll keep thinking about it.

[Janet]

Uh....there's a ton of violence in TKAM.

[Lark]

For a TOB 15 book, Annihilation passes my own personal Bechdel test--even though there is a big body count there is absolutely no, zero, added peril for female characters, and no sexual violence or even repression because of gender.

Vandermeer accomplishes this partly by having no men in the book whatsoever except in flashback. But even in the sequels, where male characters play a large role, there is never a sense that women are uniquely vulnerable when compared with men. While this might be real-world unrealistic, I really loved it about these books, and took note of it right way as I started reading them as something that felt different.

This is a big reason why I loved this book.

[Topher]

Poingu wrote: "Literally no one said Untamed State uses rape as a literary device.


No, but in a discussion that includes not wanting to read An Untamed State (and others), Ohrenpacy said: "these days, that scenes of child molestation and rape seem to be included almost as a marker, to make a character, or a book important enough to be considered a heavyweight"

Markers, or things that 'make a character' are literary devices. I'm not making things up here. In other words, I have NO issue with someone not wanting to read a book for whatever reading, but ascribing bad intents to an author because someone finds the subject matter disturbing bothers me a great deal.

That said, I'm going to bow out of this conversation on this topic, because I find it extremely troubling.

[Lark]

Change of subject then.

I had romping good fun with Brave Man Seven Storeys Tall. The author feels like a very intelligent and creative person who has made something of a happy glom of many interesting themes. The book reminds me of a first record album when a singer wants to make an impact and stuffs all these great tracks on the album that he/she has been composing and refining for years. I'll look forward to his second book.

[jess]

That "oh no, not again" feeling is the same one many women get when faced with situations of sexual violence, or when friends share their stories. I don't "like" reading it, but it does feel realistic to me to encounter those stories again and again. I loved what Poingu said, though, about how some authors, "can't imagine a woman character who is not influenced by fear of rape, or can't imagine a book having a compelling forward narrative drive without sexual violence." I feel uncomfortable when it feels lazy or gratuitous, although I guess I perceive a wider range of stories where it feels realistic instead of gratuitous.