Tournament of Books discussion
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2015 Books
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2015 ToB Competition Discussion
Ali,Thanks for noting the echoes of At Night We Walk in Circles felt when reading Station Eleven. I much, much, much preferred At Night We Walk in Circles.
I just don't get the hype of Station Eleven. It wasn't a page-turner and it wasn't more than that, which leaves, what? A moderately paced book of shallow ideas would be my answer. How is that a thing?
I should have said, regarding Station Eleven: A moderately-paced book of shallow ideas told in pedestrian prose.
Kerry wrote: "I should have said, regarding Station Eleven: A moderately-paced book of shallow ideas told in pedestrian prose."
hi kerry! so i finished 'station eleven' last night and... blargh! i had praise for it early on and had hoped it would sustain, but, man, did i end up disliking this book. i agree with your 'shallow ideas' assessment. she introduced so many juicy ideas, but they never went anywhere. and then the climax (was that what that was?) was so anticlimactic as to be almost ridiculous. i am feeling pretty bummed over this one.
it's also served to, i think, put me off reading any more ToB books for this year. i have read half of them at this point and i have just been overwhelmingly underwhelmed (ha!). i will still really enjoy the tournament, as i do every year! and i am really looking forward to the judges opinions and discussions.
Kerry wrote: "I should have said, regarding Station Eleven: A moderately-paced book of shallow ideas told in pedestrian prose."
Station Eleven is one of those novels that I rather liked as I was reading it but, a few months on, hasn’t “aged” too well in my estimation. At the time of reading, I thought it was pretty good at conveying a sense of longing for a world that had been lost. Looking back on it now, however, the story does seem slight. I’m amazed that I could tolerate how the author hinged a major part of the novel on Arthur’s story, which on reflection seems pretty flat and banal. I still have warm feelings about the book overall, but wouldn’t be able to defend it very effectively.
Ali wrote: "Station Eleven was the most recent, and I was really disappointed. It reminded me a lot of At Night We Walk In Circles, albeit with a more interesting structure...."
I'm so pleased you mentioned this, Ali - I was trying to figure out what Station Eleven was reminding me of and of course it's At Night We Walk in Circles, but I preferred the latter. I enjoyed Station Eleven while reading it but it's not a book that is 'sitting well' with me, so to speak - I'm hoping the tournament commentary helps me to organize my thinking around the themes. Whereas I really enjoyed Alarcon's book and found it cohesive both as a story and in its themes.
Sam and Jennifer,I am glad to have the company. Overwhelmingly underwhelming is a great descriptor for Station Eleven as well as the field, Jennifer. I am going to read An Untamed State (seems a love/hate book and likely contender) and the Ferrante series. Beyond that, I am losing steam and may only make half of them too. I am reading A Brave Man Seven Storeys Tall. Why not A Blazing World instead? Sure, this didn't get the same hype, but, so far, there is no sign it deserved more. Hustvedt's is quite good and great for discussion.
Love the ToB, meh on the shortlist.
But
Jennifer wrote: "so i finished 'station eleven' last night and... blargh! i had praise for it early on and had hoped it would sustain, but, man, did i end up disliking this book...."Oh no! I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it, Jennifer, and that you're turned off reading the other books. Maybe once we're into the tournament commentary you'll find your TOB mojo (at least, that's what I'm hoping happens for me!).
A Brave Man Seven Storeys Tall is the Nook Daily Find at $0.99. Not available for that same price on Amazon.
Jen wrote: "Oh no! I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it, Jennifer, and that you're turned off reading the other books. Maybe once we're into the tournament commentary you'll find your TOB mojo..."heh -- recently, i did say someplace around here or the other ToB group (i get confused about where i am?!), that a lot of the times the ToB judgements and discussions help me out a lot - whether to improve my feelings about a book i wasn't interested in reading - hence moving it up my TBR list, or justifying my decision to not read something. so i am sure this year will be no different. i can't recall, in recent ToBs, feeling so meh about the 16 contenders - and that was even before i really got down to trying to read the ones that most appealed.
as of right now, with 8 of the 16 books read... i have enjoyed Those Who Leave and Those Who Stay the most - it was a solid 5-star read for me. (but i read all three books, one after the other). i also really liked All the Light We Cannot See - this one feels, to me, like it has the broadest appeal.
Finished Everything I Never Told You yesterday (again, a 1-day read. Loving this aspect of this year's list.). I thought I liked it while I was reading it -- and I still can't say I DISliked it exactly -- but it suddenly struck me that I'd read this book before. Isn't it Bee Season? And Disobedience? Mystic River? And even The Lovely Bones, a little bit? And there was a Stewart O'Nan book that was basically the same as well...I just don't know what it brought to the table that was new or interesting on this topic. Now, I guess you can say that about a lot of genre books -- like British mystery series, which I always enjoy reading -- but I guess, again, I expect more out of Tournament of Books books.Started Station Eleven and am definitely enjoying it -- far more than At Night We Walk in Circles, I have to say, although I guess I see the similarities -- but I do have a bit of a weakness for post-apocalyptic fiction, ever since reading The Stand way back when. I'm guessing, however, that it won't bring anything new to that genre, either -- and I do see it as derivative of a million things, like -- The Road, The Walking Dead, even The Hunger Games, in the relationship between Kirsten and August. But I am enjoying it, and when it comes right down to it, it's the books I enjoy the most that grab me, not the ones that I might think are great literature or that have some kind of deep meaning.
Kerry wrote: "Ali,Thanks for noting the echoes of At Night We Walk in Circles felt when reading Station Eleven. I much, much, much preferred At Night We Walk in Circles..."
Kerry, Jen, and everyone,
Well at least it feels gratifying to know we're all missing the hype together. I was waiting throughout the whole book for something to drop and, I don't know, get me really invested or at least pick up the plot pace or something. To be honest, I didn't care for At Night We Walk In Circles either. Glad both are behind us!
On a happier note I read Adam yesterday and it was such an unexpected light little nugget :) And I got the audio for Bone Clocks at the library. Never read David Mitchell before, but having zero expectations might be a good thing based on others' reviews. I'm not far enough in to say much about the book, though the narrator is quite good so far!
I agree that All the Light We Cannot See has the broadest appeal but I'm not sure the judges will fawn over it the way the general readership has. Did anyone read last year's winner The Good Lord Bird? Was it a favorite going in?
Janet wrote: "I agree that All the Light We Cannot See has the broadest appeal but I'm not sure the judges will fawn over it the way the general readership has. Did anyone read last year's winne..."i loved (LOVED!) The Good Lord Bird. i don't know if it was a favourite going into the tournament though, i can't remember. i do know that i selected it in a pool to take the rooster, so i was thrilled. haha!! it is also a book i felt had the broadest appeal, and it's certainly one i can (and do) recommend too a wide variety of readers.
i am very curious about how the judges will write about All the Light We Cannot See. while i certainly liked it a lot, i have read the criticisms of it and understand them. and yet... i was still so utterly transported by doerr's writing.
i've been wondering a lot about the pairings this week. :)
I thought over what I wrote and realize that the book I'm describing usually is a runner-up...I would put A Tale for the Time Being in that category...but the book that won last year was The Good Lord Bird, not a typical book on any level to me.
There was someone on this board -- Ed, was it you? -- who said a week or so after the shortlist was posted something to the effect of, "I'm calling it now -- The Good Lord Bird will take the whole thing." I wanted to demur, because (hangs head in shame) I think I may have been the only person in here who didn't care for it -- I didn't really "get" it, the way I didn't really "get" The Orphan Master's Son. I mean, I GOT it, I understood the plot and all, but not only did I not see the humor, but I was bemused by the whole premise and never understood why the kid had to be dressed as a girl, or in what way it helped him. The whole thing seemed so contrived and it went on and on...and I felt especially guilty since James McBride and I are alumni of the same august institution of higher learning (he was 2 years ahead of me; I didn't know him). Poingu, did you read People in the Trees, from last year's ToB? I have a feeling you might find it interesting.
Here's what John Warner said about All the Light We Cannot See:It's Going to Win the Pulitzer Prize: "All the Light We Cannot See" by Anthony Doerr. Laying my money down.
Last year I came into the tournament having only read The Good Lord Bird. I read a few more during the tourney, but I was rooting for TGLB the whole time so I was really excited that it won. My gut tells me All the Light is going to be the winner this year. But I'm still a newbie, so I can make uninformed predictions with no history to make me doubt myself. :)
Ellen, you are most definitely not alone on your opinion of The Good Lord Bird. I had a really hard time with it and finding humor in the subject matter.
I didn't really like reading The Good Lord Bird, actually, for the same reasons Ellen and Anne said, but I do feel it did something different, and did it with conviction. Ellen, I haven't read People in the Trees but I remember being intrigued by the judges' comments about it. Thanks for the suggestion.
Is there anyone else in here who found All the Light We Cannot See just...pleasant? Fine, but again, not doing anything new with its material? It felt like a book I'd read a dozen times before. And I also felt a little frustrated and stupid at the end because it didn't really seem clear to me what exactly had happened to the diamond; I had to read the end over and over and form a hypothesis and then go and look on line to find others who were puzzled and what conclusions they'd drawn. I almost gave up, because -- frankly -- I didn't really care, but it frustrated me that this book which had apparently thrilled everyone who read it had an ending that was deliberately obfuscated. Now, I LOVE "Eureka!" endings, where you find out in the 11th hour that there was a factor you didn't know -- cf: The Hours by Michael Cunningham, or Julian Barnes's The Sense of an Ending or, god knows, Graham Greene's The End of the Affair or even Jodi Picoult's My Sister's Keeper, or, most notably to me, Claire Messud's The Woman Upstairs -- but this one seemed to me to be kind of coyly messed with so you wouldn't actually know what the Eureka! meant, and this was after a very straightforward book. It bugged me.
Ellen wrote: "Is there anyone else in here who found All the Light We Cannot See just...pleasant? Fine, but again, not doing anything new with its material? It felt like a book I'd read a dozen times before. ..."Ah, the open ended 'come to your own conclusion' ending. I loved ATLWCS but I also enjoy most books with open endings. I like imagining all the different outcomes and trying to make the story I'd like best to fit. I don't think having an open ending means it won't delight readers, rather it would appeal to those who enjoy them.
I have to admit, I'm confused by the word "pleasant"? I don't think I would have used that word to describe the subject matter, very interesting and different point of view. ATLWCS made me cry which I haven't done in a very long time and I've also read MANY books dealing with WWII. I can't wait to see what everyone thinks of this one because I'm usually not a "rah rah" cheerleader for a topic that gets beaten to death (which I admit WWII historical fiction books are bountiful).
That's really interesting, AmberBug. I, too, may have read upwards of 100 books on WWII -- although I have to admit, only one other on the subject specifically of the Nazi occupation of France and the resistance. That's one of the reasons this seemed such familiar territory, those 100 or so books. Yes, I found it a "pleasant" read -- not too taxing, and not anything new particularly. I have no trouble with open endings (see: Cloud Atlas). But I don't think this was one. There is something specific that was done/happened to the diamond, but it was couched in unclear and -- to me -- seemingly coy language.
Have you ever read The Dark Room by Rachel Sieffert? It's the most different treatment of WWII that I've seen. And absolutely open-ended....
Ellen wrote: "That's really interesting, AmberBug. I, too, may have read upwards of 100 books on WWII -- although I have to admit, only one other on the subject specifically of the Nazi occupation of France and..."Adding it to my list of books, thanks! Also, completely misjudged the usage of pleasant, sorry about that. I agree the writing, while beautiful (to me), was nothing new or challenging. This book is sticking with me though, I have to admit the characters left a deep impression. There must be something to all the love going around surrounding ATLWCS, right?
That's what I figure, that (once again, as with The Good Lord Bird and Orphan Train) I just missed the boat here.
This: "i can't recall, in recent ToB's, feeling so meh about the 16 contenders - and that was even before i really got down to trying to read the ones that most appealed. "I'm glad I'm not the only one! I thought I was slowly losing my love of books or something. The majority of the short list just didn't interest me as much this year. I haven't read many of them yet, but it seems even the books I SHOULD love, like The Bone Clocks (as I've loved the handful of other Mitchell books I've read) just aren't grabbing me. At this point, with the inclusion of characters of Mitchell's other books, I feel like I should have read all of his books chronologically, and even re-read the others. Anyway, to those of you who have read the majority of the short list, would any of the books end up on your 'favorite books' list in general, or maybe I should ask if there are any you are rooting for over the others?
I'll be finishing up 'All the Birds, Singing' today but I don't have any of the other ToB books at my hands to read. I almost want to ask any of you if I could borrow some of them for the Kindle app (I don't know how that works), but it would have to be the shorter books because I have to read it on my laptop screen... don't want to wreck my eyes! But then I don't really know which other ToB books I want to tackle...
I'm really struggling with how out of sync my reading judgments are about what is loosely called "literary fiction." I mean "judgments" literally--it's not just that I don't like a given book, but also that a lot of the books that critics and awards panels judge as "good" I think are "bad."
I haven't completely figured out my criteria for "good" but I think it means a book with a unique voice and vision. "Good" is a book that feels like nothing I've ever read before. I don't have to like reading a book, to think the book is "good" in this way.
The adjective "pleasant," meant as something slightly pejorative, also feels on the right track for what I don't like in a lot of lauded literary fiction. Books with themes that don't challenge my thinking and the sentences sound good in my head and then I forget them.
poingu, i think i totally understand where you are coming from!! but i think this is all so subjective and personal, though. there may be a marketing definition for 'literary fiction' that publishers ascribe to certain works, but many readers will vary widely in what they call a given book with that label. i have certainly encountered works of literary fiction that i felt to be a bit 'light', and been curious about its qualifications. and i feel same goes for several people reaching a consensus on a group of books - whether an award jury, or the people deciding the ToB roster. a different trio of people would likely come up with a very different longlist, shortlist, winner, roster of 16, etc.
one of the things i like so much about goodreads is finding these pockets of people who share similar tastes and goals with their reading.
Jennifer, I also like Goodreads for the way it helps me expand out of my little judgmental corner, and to try to see what other people see when they say a book is good that I've not liked at all. I'm also trying to figure out why I have no such snooty superior judgments about genre fiction, which I can enjoy unabashedly and not care whether I've read the same book a million times before.
heh! poingu, i question my own book snobbery and quirks an awful lot too. :)
I really liked All the Light, but agree with the "pleasant" assessment, which is contradictory since it was unpleasant subject matter. But a "feel good" book nonetheless. However, a big drawback for me is that it felt an awful lot like The Book Thief (which I actually preferred). At least in tone.
It's only in the last few years that I've realized what makes a 5 star read for me. Generally, not always, it has to be a character driven novel and it has to be so well written that, for a brief time, I put my own life aside and "become" one of the characters. And usually it leaves me breathless as I race through the pages to find out what happens to "me".....lol. It's been this way since the 1960's with Gone with the Wind when I lived as Scarlet O'Hara :-) I identify equally with female and male characters however, I seldom find male authors that can write with the kind of emotional hook I require. Male authors are very adept at presenting intellectual ideas but female authors excel at melding head and heart.
Poingu, I am so thrilled you have spoken up. So much of what you say, I just want to second, including of what, to me, counts as a truly good book. To that end, my biggest disappointment this year (or last, not sure of eligibility) is the failure to include a small press offering (snagging that ToB plus factor) that is, perhaps, the most original, I think actually brilliant, book I have read in some time: A Girl is a Half-formed Thing by Eimear McBride. I feel bad for not having reviewed it or bought a 100 copies and handed them out at the Metro or something. The subject matter is very difficult, but the writing is original and manages to generate an unique, to me, effect.I would like the ToB to be about books like that.
And I absolutely agree that All the Light We Cannot See is a "pleasant" book, notwithstanding the surrounding evil and the bad things that happen. I will say, I appreciate that Doerr did not shrink from allowing bad things to happen to central characters. He gets kudos for that and it is a very good book, just too "pleasant" to be great.
I am thoroughly enjoying the convo about what makes a really good book. I think I could easily say I like the exact opposite of Janet ;-) I'm not sure I can so easily quantify what makes a really good book for me but it gives me a feeling that I don't want to end. I can lose myself in it for big chunks of reading time. It must have a great story that draws me along. And I don't often reread books but it will hold up well and even improve with a second reading.I just yesterday reread Neverhome by Laird Hunt. I don't think this is the greatest book ever written but I do think it is well done, has an interesting story, characters that demand your attention and some pretty darn good writing. It also has a link back to a really interesting aspect of the Civil War--women in battle.
As for this year's TOB list. I'm not rooting for anything in particular but I have enjoyed several, including: A Brave Man Seven Storeys Tall; All the Light We Cannot See; An Untamed State; Station Eleven; The Bone Clocks and The Paying Guests. But none of them have given me that wonderful, don't-want-it-to-end feeling I described above. It's interesting that many of this year's list were already on my wish list. That is different from many previous years.
When one reads as much as most of us do I think it is really hard to find that "unique voice and vision" as described by Poingu.
Anne wrote: "I am thoroughly enjoying the convo about what makes a really good book. I think I could easily say I like the exact opposite of Janet ;-) I'm not sure I can so easily quantify what makes a really..."Ahhh, the world would be extremely boring if we were all alike.
I think that Poingu's excellent point about critics and awards panels is exactly why the ToB exists. Each one of us is the center of a unique reading universe that has evolved from a lifetime of choices about what to read, when to read it, how to decide about what was enjoyable vs what was 'important' or educational or life changing."literary fiction" has almost become genre fiction in its own right, because publishers and critics have expectations or promote certain characteristics that will sell books of a certain type to an audience that wants a certain thing.
Wolf Hall is historical fiction, Cloud Atlas is a thinly disguised collection of short stories, The Orphan Master's Son is modern day dystopia...what sets them apart is the skill of the author, and then, the skill of the reader to set aside genre prejudice and read thoughtfully.
Maybe this year's crop doesn't have a timeless masterpiece like those I've mentioned, or maybe there will be a gem (like Long Division was for me last year) that I would never have noticed if not for the ToB.
The point of it is to find new things to read, have fun with the discussions and then move on to the next great book, it's there, just waiting for you to open it.
Kerry wrote: "To that end, my biggest disappointment this year (or last, not sure of eligibility) is the failure to include a small press offering (snagging that ToB plus factor) that is, perhaps, the most original, I think actually brilliant, book I have read in some time: A Girl is a Half-formed Thing by Eimear McBride."I agree, Kerry. Thanks for recommending McBride--I hadn't heard of that book and it looks right up my alley.
Three of my favorite reads in the last few months were all paperback originals: Preparation for the Next Life by Atticus Lish, published by Tyrant Books, and two from a newish imprint, FSG Originals:Threats by Amelia Gray, and Annihilation, which actually made the TOB short list.
While FSG Originals certainly doesn't count as a small press, I'm glad FSG has established an imprint that champions unusual books. After reading Threats and Annilation, and after seeing that they're also publishing Alexander Hemon, FSG Originals has become one of the few instances where I'm looking at a publisher's list for what to read, vs. just looking for books I think sound interesting in the NYT Sunday book review section. (The other publishers I pay attention to are Graywolf and Dalkey Archive Press, and now I think I should add Coffee House Press, who published McBride.)
Here is a PW article about FSG Originals:
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by...
Poingu,Well, if I can get one more person to read McBride's book, I will feel I've paid her back a little for the gift she gave me. So, thanks for looking into it. And I agree about small presses. Those you mentioned are reliable resources (Graywolf and Dalkey), and I'll have to start looking into the FSG Originals. I enjoyed Annihilation quite a bit, though it was not exactly my thing. Our tastes seem to significantly overlap, so your three recommendations are going on my post-TOB tbr.
I have just finished All the Light We Cannot See and I have read two other books in the TOB. I just picked up four of the TOB contenders from the library. (Why do requested books always arrive at the same time?) Which one should I read first?The Bone Clocks
Everything I Never Told You
A Brave Man Seven Stories Tall
A Brief History of Seven Killings
Which of these did you love? Hate? Is there one that you think will make it past the first round? This is a lot of reading - I want to start with the best.
Thanks
Kerry wrote: "Poingu,Well, if I can get one more person to read McBride's book, I will feel I've paid her back a little for the gift she gave me. So, thanks for looking into it. And I agree about small press..."
I read AGiaHFT this month, and thought that it would have been an excellent inclusion in the ToB this year. I thought that it was beautifully written, and powerful, but painful as well. My only criticism is that I find, these days, that scenes of child molestation and rape seem to be included almost as a marker, to make a character, or a book important enough to be considered a heavyweight. I hate this trend. I hated it in The Son, Hill William, The Enchanted and several other books I put down last year after starting them and realizing what I was going to be in for.
This criticism isn't meant to take away from the value of any one story that is being told, or any one author's take on the subject, i just find that the genre (lit fic) seems to accept, or even reward (via positive criticism) the inclusion of this topic in the way that, say, actors know they are going to get an oscar nod if they play a handicapped character.
this is my own objection, and not meant to be anything more, but I mention it because as much as i admired McBride's book, i won't recommend it.
Just echoing that this has been a great conversation, even when I disagree. I do think that the selections have been fairly tame this year (although, to be fair, a lot of the same people who want weirder books, claim when they get them!) I would have loved to see Wolf in White Van here. It's a flawed book, but flawed in an interesting way. I'm going to hex out the McBride soon thanks to these recommendations. Also, in response to an earlier post, I was the person who called Good Lord Bird right out of the gate last year. And after thinking about it, I can see Untamed State vs All the Light in the end. Two novels about (largely) brutality, but written in much different styles. If what people are saying here is indeed true (that these types of awards lean in the end toward what pleases us and away from what might challenge us) then All the Light will take it.
So hope you are wrong Topher about All The Lite (aka The Quest For The Stone Of Immortality).I feel I had a disappointing year of reading last year and this year's tournament selection kind of backs that up. There are some good read there (eg Redeployment and Station Eleven and An Untamed State) but nothing that will sit with me afterwards as a favourite read (still have fond recall of Billy Lynn, A Tale For the Time Being, The Orphan Master's Son, Skippy Dies ... and lots more). Nothing from this year's selection will sit in my memory for long.
Julie wrote: "...I feel I had a disappointing year of reading last year and this year's tournament selection kind of backs that up..."julie, so funny you say that about your year of reading last year. i felt the same way. at the end of 2014 a few GR & twitter friends and i were talking about just that, though we did have some great reads, overall our feeling was 'meh'. so far, 2015 has been much of the meh-y same. so it's disappointing. but... it is making the book i really love stand out even more.
Now I'm diving into Silence Once Begun because I've heard exactly nothing about it.
just got dept. of speculation in my postal book club. so excited to start it!
For those lamenting the lack of originality/imagination: what did you think of A Brief History?
Ohren,I completely agree that the trend towards sexual abuse of various sorts being a weighty topic is not, in my view, a welcome one. It is, of course, an emotionally heavy topic, but that is not the same thing as weighty. How it is handled makes a huge difference, but I still tend to avoid those books. In fact, the inclusion of that subject in McBride's novel is probably why I haven't been more vocal in recommending it. For some people, it is a non-starter and for everyone else it will be difficult.
Frankly, I would have preferred she used her originality to talk about something else, but then she is the one who wrote a brilliant book and her original use of language is particularly adapted to her subject. So, maybe it had to be. But I will never argue that someone "should" read books with a significant sexual abuse component. I think it is obvious that sexual abuse of anyone, but particularly children, is harmful, evil, extremely damaging, etc.. In that sense, it is not a good topic for literary fiction, at least, it usually is a really poor topic deployed more for emotional impact than really saying anything. However, like the best Holocaust fiction, it can be well done and important.
Thanks for the response and I agree with you.
Topher wrote: "For those lamenting the lack of originality/imagination: what did you think of A Brief History?"Topher, I passed it by in the bookstore yesterday to buy "Adam" and "Silence Once Begun" instead, mostly because they are short and Brief History is a little door stoppy. I'm kind of sorry I did, though--I like "Silence" all right--maybe 2nd of the books I've read on this year's TOB--but "Adam" not at all.
Not a TOB book but for those looking for originality/imagination, How to be both by Ali Smith fits the bill. I just finished and not surprisingly, it left me cold but it's getting raves in lots of literary circles.
Silence Once Begun is my new TOB favorite. It really hit all the right notes for me.
Just started Silence Once Begun myself. The beginning reminds me of Murakami's Colorless Tsukuru.
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Tournament of Books
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So glad there are other people who didn't like Untamed State!