Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion
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Flower Net
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Flower Net, by Lisa See - VBC June 2020
Warning too late for me, but it serves as reassurance that there won't be more, so I thank you. I would otherwise have abandoned the book, and I had skipped to the end to ease my mind for sleep. With that assurance, I'll revisit. I do like insights into Chinese culture, like the buying of gifts for those to be interviewed, and the insult of not offering tea . . . and the bit of sweetness at the end, which I won't reveal, but it did help me feel better. <3
Lenore wrote: "This month we begin Flower Net, by Lisa See. From the summary on the back cover:In the depths of a Beijing winter, during the waning days of Deng Xiaoping’s reign, the U.S. ambassador’s son is fou..."
Thanks for the warning. I would have abandoned the book as soon as I encountered the graphic violence. I think I'm more sensitive than ever.
I was really pleased that a LIsa See Red Princess book was added to our list. LIsa See is my other fav mystery author. I read Flower Net several years ago and am enjoying rereading it. The book was written in 1997 and I think takes place about that same time. Having spent time in China—a month in 2012 and ten months in 2014 - 2015, I am struck by how much remains the same and how much has changed. I look forward to the discussion.
Antoinette wrote: "Lenore wrote: "This month we begin Flower Net, by Lisa See. From the summary on the back cover:In the depths of a Beijing winter, during the waning days of Deng Xiaoping’s reign, the U.S. ambassad..."
Friends in my school book club, knowing me well, would warn me of books and movies I should avoid. One sent a student to retrieve a book a horrid vice-principal had loaned me, "Ms B said for me to take that book and she'll explain later" and he took that book right off my desk and walked away with it.
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Dayna wrote: "I was really pleased that a LIsa See Red Princess book was added to our list....Having spent time in China—a month in 2012 and ten months in 2014 - 2015, I am struck by how much remains the same and how much has changed...."Dayna, I'm so glad you have actual China experience, and I hope some others do, too, because you might be able to answer questions I have.
One question has to do with the realism of Liu Hulan's situation. While Lisa See evidently has studied China a lot, and her father is Chinese-American, according to her website she was born in Paris and grew up in L.A. So, does she actually know what things are like in the world of Chinese policing? I'm not saying she doesn't -- I truly don't know. But I wonder how likely it is that a Red Princess would seek a job as a tea girl in the security service, and how likely is it that she would rise to become a detective? And how likely is it that the powers that be would waste the knowledge that comes from having studied and practiced law in American to have such a person focus on domestic crime instead of international affairs? Again, I don't know enough to know if this is realistic or not.
Because we've all read a lot about the Cultural Revolution, everything she writes about the denouncing and rehabilitation of characters seems quite likely. But I wonder about the shift in positions between Lui Hulan's father, the Vice Minister, and Section Chief Zai. Before the CR, Zai was Hulan's superior; afterwards, their positions are reversed. Both were denounced and rehabilitated. Is that a plausible sequence of events? I just don't know.
The book opening is lovely, actually waiting for time ( 😂) to follow the descriptions of the location on google earth.
Thanks for the warning! I'll skip those parts.
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I was wondering this too, Lenore. I mean she's well known for her historical novels set in China, so like any good author, I'm sure she's at least made multiple visits to China and done her research.
So far, I'm finding the prose distant. Nothing feels urgent, even the ship nearly sinking at the beginning. But I'm still enjoying it.
I found mention of the "Goldfish" case interesting. During my research into 1900 SF Chinatown, America refusing to send criminal tong members back to China was pretty common, because Americans considered Chinese justice inhumane (instant beheading when they returned), even though the criminals were basically a plague on Chinatown. It effectively tied the Consul General's hands in Chinatown and made the criminal tongs more powerful.
Lenore wrote: "One question has to do with the realism of Liu Hulan's situation. "Lenore, I am really not able to answer your questions based on the time I spent in China, which was essentially 17 years after the event portrayed in the book take place. I read about the Cultural Revolution in a book I read before I went to China in an attempt to understand more about their history than I got from a World History class in undergraduate school, which was in the early 70s. What I recall matches the story that Hulan told David. It also matches other fictional or semi-fictional accounts I have read about that time in other books.
What continues to resonate with me are the street scenes, especially about the food stalls, markets, and vendors. Things like, walking to class in the morning and buying baozi (stuffed steamed buns) for breakfast, buying pan-fried dumpings from a street vendor as I walked back at noon, haggling with the fruit vendor over a purchase (being coached by one of my students), slurping noodles with a colleague, and having a student bring me candied hawthorne berries on a skewer. And a number of other things that David notes as he wanders around on his own.
I’m hoping that others with more knowledge of China politics and high society will comment on your questions. I am also curious about that.
Excellent comment on finding “ the prose distant.” I was trying to decide between the book being written as “just being dialed in” or is it duplicating the emotional distance of the culture as presented by the main character, Hulan.
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I don't think it's emotional distance. Just prose style, for me. Instead of the writing painting a picture in my mind, it's like someone in a hurry is describing a picture to me. If that makes sense…
Which leads me to a question I was going to pose to the group: What did you think of the writing style? Do the conversations seem believable?
Lenore wrote: "Which leads me to a question I was going to pose to the group: What did you think of the writing style? Do the conversations seem believable?"As a student of linguistics, I think conversations in books (and TV and movies and plays) are rarely believable in the sense that they reflect the way people actually talk. Having said that, it doesn’t bother me. I really didn’t notice anything different in Lee’s writing style, but I have read six of her books.
Good point. It's hard to capture authentic speech in writing, though I appreciate honest efforts to do so. I used to point out to students the more informal language in dialog, including the fact that Mark Twain as narrator didn't use the n-word that sometimes prompted attempts to ban his books from the curriculum. WRITING AS A SECOND LANGUAGE by Donald Davis pointed out the changes required to accommodate the lack of physical context. It helped me help my students do some of their best writing, by first telling their narrative to a partner, then writing it with the partner helping to recapture the best parts from hearing it.
Mary wrote: "Good point. It's hard to capture authentic speech in writing, though I appreciate honest efforts to do so. I used to point out to students the more informal language in dialog, including the fact t..."One of the things I noticed is that the speech patterns of the less proficient English speakers (like Zhao) don’t really reflect what I have experienced with native Chinese speakers.
We still can't talk about spoilers, but I think it's fair to assume that almost everyone has at least gotten as far as David's arrival in Beijing and beginning to investigate with Liu Hulan. Do you feel that their prior relationship is helping their joint investigation or hindering it?
Liu Hulan thinks it is no coincidence that she was assigned to help him? Why would the higher powers arrange that?
Dayna wrote: "Mary wrote: "Good point. It's hard to capture authentic speech in writing, though I appreciate honest efforts to do so. I used to point out to students the more informal language in dialog, includi..."That can be difficult, as trying to capture accents/foreign speech patterns comes off more ignorant in writing than when you hear it.
One thing I notice with my Chinese colleagues is that since there's no he/she distinction in Chinese people tend to wander around gender-wise in the discussion - that would be very confusing to see written!
Emily—yes that happens a lot with Chinese speakers, and it IS confusing. I was thinking more about omitting articles.
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I'm curious about this statement. Can you clarify?
And this book is really making me wanting to travel again!
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I was wondering about that too. It seems like her father and Zhao were watching for her reaction when she first saw David. I was wondering if the powers that be are testing her loyalty.
Sabrina wrote: "Emily wrote: One thing I notice with my Chinese colleagues is that since there's no he/she distinction in Chinese people tend to wander around gender-wise in the discussion - that would be very con..."It's sort of how making adjectives agree with gender in Spanish or French doesn't come naturally to English speakers. You end up with sentences like, "I called Anne to ask him about the grant, and she said that his group would be able to participate." where "him" and "his" also refer to Anne.
Sabrina wrote: "Emily wrote: One thing I notice with my Chinese colleagues is that since there's no he/she distinction in Chinese people tend to wander around gender-wise in the discussion - that would be very con..."Here is a good explanation of why Chinese speakers confuse gender in speaking:
http://blog.tutorming.com/mandarin-ch...
This agrees with what Chinese-speaking colleagues and students have told me.
Lenore wrote: "Which leads me to a question I was going to pose to the group: What did you think of the writing style? Do the conversations seem believable?"Hulan and Peter have had a lifetime to perfect careful speech. Given their work they would always be thinking before speaking. I would expect their language to be tidy.
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Man, it would be nice to have a neutral pronoun in English!
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There was a comment that really jumped out at me from the woman that David meets on the plane as she's describing potentially having to take the train if the plane had to land somewhere other than Beijing. Something about being jammed in with chickens? And the first thing I thought was "but China has one of the most upscale trains in the world!"
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http://blog.tutorming.com/mandarin-ch…
Thanks so much for this link! That makes total sense now. I'd heard this was the case with Japanese too. That it was easy to get lost in a conversation without context. Wish the English language had a neutral pronoun.
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I was wondering about the chickens, too, Erin. I always envisioned China having super sleek trains. Didn't you just go walk the Great Wall?
Sabrina wrote: "Erin wrote: "Something about being jammed in with chickens? And the first thing I thought was "but China has one of the most upscale trains in the world!" I was wondering about the chickens, too,..."
Modern Chinese trains do appear to be pretty great. See https://www.seat61.com/China.htm . But was this true in 1992, when this book is set? A Wikipedia article on the history of train travel in China says the government only really began a push to expand the rail network and modernize trains in the early 1990s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...
And this National Geographic article from 2012 -- https://tinyurl.com/y9lb5l3q -- indicates that service was variable even then.
I missed the date—1992—that the events in the book take place. I was thinking it was a bit later. That means Tiananmen Square protests were just two and a half years before, which casts a very different perspective on the attitudes of the characters. The anniversary of that was this week, by the way. I looked for more references to the protests but only recall maybe two. I wonder if See hesitates to refer to the protests because of concern for relatives or future visits to China. Even today, the government locks down social media about the event around the anniversary.
Regarding the trains—the ones I rode on in 2012 and 2015 were quite nice, but they were between major cities. I can imagine that almost 30 years ago they were more rustic, especially if they stopped at every little village along the way.
Erin wrote: "Emily wrote: "It's sort of how making adjectives agree with gender in Spanish or French doesn't come naturally to English speakers. You end up with sentences like, "I called Anne to ask him about t..." Man, it would be nice to have a neutral pronoun in English! >
I so agree. We were trying in the '70s to popularize a gender-neutral singular pronoun, one suggested was herm and it was pointed out that she already contained he. It would have headed off the confusing "singular they."
Ah well, at least we managed to establish Ms.
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Yep! "Just" being in 2018, LOL But yeah, relatively recent. That's why it jumped out at me. The subway and buses in Beijing were better than anywhere in the US (not that that is very difficult, tbh). And everything I read about the broader train network was great as well. Very sleek.
But yeah, a lot of change can happen in 25 years!
Mary wrote: "Man, it would be nice to have a neutral pronoun in English! I so agree. We were trying in the '70s to popularize a gender-neutral singular pronoun, one suggested was herm and it was pointed out that she already contained he. It would have headed off the confusing "singular they."..."
I really hope the "singular they" does not stick. For awhile there seemed to be a movement to substitute "ze," which would have been a lot less confusing, but it does not seem to have caught on.
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I find "ze" much harder to remember/use than singular "they/them". A friend of a friend prefers to use "ou" and I'm so bad at remembering it, I just stopped using pronouns for them.
A friend said his daughters' high school friends do as Erin said, and just avoid pronouns, which reminded me of Judith Merrill's "Survival Ship."
The singular "they" has been in use in the English language since the 1300's as written, which means it most likely has been in spoken use longer than that. As a former English teacher, I'm quite comfortable with it and find it far less clunky than "he or she." I particularly like the lack of gender assignation. Back to the book itself, I'm having a hard time getting all that interested in it. I'm about a third of the way through and keep finding myself picking up other things instead. Does it pick up? Did anyone else have the same reaction?
KarenB wrote: "The singular "they" has been in use in the English language since the 1300's as written, which means it most likely has been in spoken use longer than that. As a former English teacher, I'm quite c..."I wasn't very interested in the book so skimmed that last 100 pages or so. The trading in animal parts was driving me to finish. Liked the ending. It is the 10th today isn't it?
Today is the 10th. Spoilers allowed.
Synchronicity . . . our library just reopened for curbside pickup and one of my books is Brave new world : with the essay "Brave new world revisited" in which is discussed the methods and results of the indoctrination camps in China. Chilling methodology!I'll make my own reading confession. I stopped after the horrible restaurant scene, read the end and then backwards to the showdown at the animal farm, and then the library retrieved the book from my iPad, so that's all I read. I'm sure I'll gain insights from the discussion. The truth of her mother's breakdown was a shock, and her ongoing recovery is heartening . . . and the smiling deflection of the neighborhood watchwoman pleased me. <3
Antoinette wrote: "KarenB wrote: "The singular "they" has been in use in the English language since the 1300's as written, which means it most likely has been in spoken use longer than that. As a former English teach..."They always makes me look around for more people. Maybe we need something like y'all to make they plural?
Commenting on what Karen B said that she had trouble getting involved in this one. I had the same problem and then don't really feel like I have much to say commenting on it (unlike the last book :-) ) Before we started reading it I saw a review that said "meh" and that's kind of how I feel.I've read a few of her other historical novels, though, and really enjoyed them. Island of the Sea Women in particular made me go back and look up the historical facts around what actually happened during that time and reading the book actually sparked conversations in my house about strategic military planning (my partner is retired Army) so I thought maybe Flower Net was simply an early experiment into a new genre that didn't work as much as she hoped.
Did anyone read the rest of the Red Princess series?
Jennifer wrote: "Did anyone read the rest of the Red Princess series?”I read all three several years ago and this one for the second time for the book club. I enjoyed all of them immensely. Maybe the draw for me is having lived in China for a while, having had Chinese students in my US classes, and still having friends in China and Taiwan. I came to the series via Snow Flower and the Secret Fan and The Shanghai Girls (first book only). While I enjoyed both of those, my favs have been the Red Princess series. Sadly (for me) I don’t think See will be writing any more of them. I also read and enjoyed Tea Girl of Hummingbird Lane and The Island of Sea Women.
Parts of Flower Net were disturbing—the deaths of the boys, Zhang and Noel in the restaurant, Cao’s death in his apartment, the description of the bears at the farm—but they were integral to the story and not gratuitous, so I got through them. Her other books include disturbing images as well, but like this one—in fair measure.
I had forgotten many of the key developments in this book, so I’m glad I reread it. I had forgotten that Hulan’s father was the baddie and that Peter was killed in the explosion of the vehicle. I started out disliking Peter and was sad when he was killed.
PS - If anyone is interested in reading more about the Cultural Revolution from the perspective of a young woman sent to the countryside to learn from peasants, I highly recommend Red Azalea by Anchee Min.
Agree with those who were not enamored with the book. There were indeed some excellent moments, my favorite was when the stall owners felt comfortable leaving their “goods “ knowing no one would steal them. A family member told me his paycheck would be placed on his desk, in cash- because no one would steal it. However, the entire book was about theft of goods, products and people’s work.
Also, Lisa See has a Goodreads group called Ask Lisa See. Comments on Flower Net are eight years old. Here is a link if you are inclined: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
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Does this get explained later? Or is it something I probably should google?
Erin it does get explained ... but not for a while if you’re in the first part of the book. And not a spoiler ... but that was one of the areas that felt a little forced to me.How did everyone else feel about it?
Jennifer wrote: "Erin it does get explained ... but not for a while if you’re in the first part of the book. And not a spoiler ... but that was one of the areas that felt a little forced to me.Forced in what sense? I found a somewhat dated (nine years) article about Red Royalty. It refers to WSJ article that I could not access without a subscription.
https://www.theatlantic.com/internati...
Dayna wrote: "... I found a somewhat dated (nine years) article about Red Royalty. It refers to WSJ article that I could not access without a subscription."But that article in The Atlantic is a real find! Thank you!
The body in the boat is described by Zhao (the quasi-English-speaking immigrant on the boat) as follows: "He is a from the special class, the son of a senior cadre. He is a Red Prince, a Gaogan Zidi." So I realized that Liu Hulan, as daughter of a vice minister, must be a Red Princess.
Lenore wrote: "Dayna wrote: "... I found a somewhat dated (nine years) article about Red Royalty. It refers to WSJ article that I could not access without a subscription."But that article in The Atlantic is a r..."
Found another more recent article from a journal called China brief about the current Chinese president, Xi, who is apparently one of the princelings:
“While Xi is sometimes called a leader of the "Princelings Faction" a reference to the offspring of party elders it is noteworthy that particularly for those born in the 1950s and after, most gaogan zidi (sons of top cadres) have gone into business rather than politics. The exception is the People's Liberation Army (PLA), which boasts several dozen princeling officers with the rank of major general or above. It is not surprising, then, that the military has remained princeling Xi's premier power base ( "Communist Youth League Clique Maintains Clout Despite Congress Setback," China Brief, November 30, 2012). After graduation from Tsinghua University in 1979, Xi worked for three years as the personal secretary of then-Minister of Defense Geng Biao. He got this plum job through the recommendation of his father, liberal party elder Xi Zhongxun (19132002). The PLA being a bastion of gaoganzidi, Xi has maintained good ties with an elite corps of princeling generals through his long career as a senior cadre in Fujian and Zhejiang Provinces (China Review News [Hong Kong], February 2; South China Morning Post [Hong Kong], November 27, 2012).”
The unorthodox Chinese detective assigned to the case is also a Red Princess, Liu Hulan. And she has a prior connection with David Stark. The two travel to Los Angeles and through China to resolve the connection between the traffic in illegal immigrants and illegal drugs, and turn up some surprising and disquieting connections in high places.
I know that some of you are very sensitive to graphic violence. Warning: There are two truly disturbing descriptions of crime scenes, one in a Beijing apartment and one in a Los Angeles restaurant. Perhaps when you get to the point of realizing you are about to come upon one of them, you could skip a few pages. I don’t think you will lose the gist of the story.
And I know you know this, but just a reminder: No spoilers until the 10th of the month.