What does "YA" mean to you? groping toward a definition

[Cheryl, Host of Miscellaneous and Newbery Clubs]

YA? Teen? Melodrama? Teen characters? Marketed to teens?

Something you read, or something you avoid? Why?

What's the history? I know there hasn't been a fine distinction between "YA" and "Middle-Grade" and "Children's" for all that long. And in this group, though it's labeled "Children's," we do read a lot of Middle-Grade. (I can look up the history later but I bet some of you know already and can fill us in).

Do you think the books in the YA section of the library have gotten more interesting since you were a teen, or more formulaic? Do they have more or less complex themes, more or less sophisticated writing?

What else do you think about when you hear a reference to YA?

[Cheryl, Host of Miscellaneous and Newbery Clubs]

I do know that many teens read adult books, too. My gateways to adult books were slice of life memoirs like those by James Herriot and Emily Kimbrough. Also the humor books from Erma Bombeck, Robert Benchley, and James Thurber. Very small rural town, very small library, very slim pickings.

Teens who read SF have traditionally read adult SF books. In the old days, there really wasn't much of a distinction, in fact, in that genre (except for notable 'Juveniles' from Heinlein and Asimov).

[Cheryl, Host of Miscellaneous and Newbery Clubs]

I know almost nothing about teen non-fiction except that it exists, and that there is a 'young person's' edition of Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking, Quiet Power: The Secret Strengths of Introverts.

[Manybooks, Fiction Club host]

In a big way, my gateway to more adult reading were actually those classic literature books we had to read for school, some of which I did hate but also many of which I absolutely loved, such as Cry, the Beloved Country and How Green Was My Valley, the plays of William Shakespeare, How I Spent My Summer Holidays, Sarah Binks, Sunshine Sketches of a Little Town etc.

And I also read the James Herriot books in high school and then started to read other biographies and memoirs, as well as historical fiction.

I guess I also never really gravitated all that much to specifically YA books, as I seem to (aside from Judy Blume's Forever) have moved from Middle Grade straight on to more adult fare (and generally nothing lurid or too fantastical, although I did love The Lord of the Rings when I read it at around eighteen after having too many issues with Tolkien's writing style and vocabulary when I first tried it at the age of twelve or thirteen).

[Beverly, former Miscellaneous Club host]

Our library system makes the distinction based on the age(s) of the main character(s). Books with MCs 12 and under are "juvenile," and those with MCs 13 and older are "YA." It seems to me that so much of YA is trending to darker and darker themes, which I don't like. And as Gundula and another poster pointed out in a different thread, some YA (and children's) books pile on too many difficult issues in one book, and that gets VERY tiring very quickly.

[QNPoohBear]

I read YA books into early adulthood. They contain older characters, sometimes as young as 14 but usually 16-18. YA books are longer, more teen drama and include issues. The age range spectrum runs the gamut from 12-18 so the issues vary. Books for younger YA readers like Dear Sweet Pea deal with the onset of puberty and those kinds of issues, often contain "liking" boy drama and family drama. Older YA books contain more hard-hitting issues like sexism, racism and include a romantic element for the main characters from attraction and "liking" to "doing it" drama. More recently published books have more issues like sexual harassment, rape, drugs, contemporary racism/ripped from the headlines The Hate U Give.

Middle grades is children's. There's picture books, beginning reader and independent reader. Then you get into middle-grades (9-12) and young adult. I consider independent reader books all middle-grades and label them early middle-grades. This is where my nieces are at at ages 10 and 11 1/2 whereas my mom and I were devouring "big" books like Anne of Green Gables and Little Women (I read it at 11. My mom thinks she read it around the age of 13 or older when she was in junior high or high school).

[Kathryn, The Princess of Picture-Books]

I started to post this over on the other thread but I think it's more relevant here: I find the trend to of dark, dystopian, mature themes in YA very wearisome. Certainly I am grateful that some books do tackle difficult subjects, some young people need this, there is certainly a place for it. But the dark, dystopian, "adult content" is so pervasive in YA these days that I hardly ever read it myself anymore. I turned to Middle Grade because, largely, I have found it more palatable but it's starting to creep in there, too. I really can't think of any YA I've read in recent years for that reason... even Twilight looks almost prim nowadays. I'm really disenchanted with the trend in YA and MG today, especially as I look ahead to what books I would like to share with my boys as they grow. There are the oldies and goodies, sure, but I would like for them to find contemporary books, too, books with diversity and modern perspectives... but I'm not so keen on the dystopian and mature themes ad nauseam. I found my own reading preferences tended to books with girl protagonists so I'm trying to expand since I have sons (I do read them the books with girl protagonists, too, but want to be a bit more balanced) but it's a struggle. I got a "Middle Grade" book to preview myself (the back cover says for ages 8-12 which IMO is way too wide a gap)about twelve year old boys at a summer camp. It is set in modern times and written by a female author and I am thoroughly disgusted at the way the girls at camp are objectified, the boys are always calling them "hot" and have a bucket list to French kiss one of the girls... (I do not remember that being a "thing" when I was twelve but I guess I'm a dinosaur!) Moreover the potty humor... the number of times I've read the word "butt" or "puke" or "poop" -- as if we have to dumb down to the lowest common denominator to make a book appeal to boys -- it's really upsetting to me.

[QNPoohBear]

Agree about dystopian. I stopped reading YA right around the time Twilight and Hunger Games hit big. I can't deal with that stuff.

Try Dear Sweet Pea for a contemporary middle grades novel that does not objectify girls. I'm seriously saving this for my younger niece. She's not quite ready for this level of book yet but she'll be able to relate to a larger than average, comfortable in her own skin, cat-loving girl with divorced parents. (view spoiler)[Sweet Pea's dad is gay and that's the reason for the divorce. Her parents love each other but he is unable to love the mom the way she needs to be loved. (hide spoiler)] The main issue if divorce and how it affects Sweet Pea, with some friend drama, bullying and other issues.

I don't do gross humor either. Kid DO like it though, even my sweet niece. It's not just children's books that use gross humor. I gave up reading the very adult Stephanie Plum mystery series when the jokes started sounding like the author's 12-year-old grandson wrote them.

[Kathryn, The Princess of Picture-Books]

QNPoohBear wrote: "I don't do gross humor either. Kid DO like it though, even my sweet niece. It's not just children's books that use gross humor.."

Oh, for sure. It’s not my cup of tea but that said I did get some good laughs out of some of it as s kid — The BFG stood out fornthat and I may or may not have laughed quite heartily at The Art of the Fart when I thumbed through it at bookstore some years ago ;-> I just kind of object to potty humor being a key factor in so many modern "boy books" as if that is all boys can find humorous or the only way for these adult authors to "relate" to boys on "their level."

Thx for the "Dear Sweet Pea" rec.

[Kathryn, The Princess of Picture-Books]

Cheryl wrote: "I do know that many teens read adult books, too. My gateways to adult books were slice of life memoirs like those by James Herriot and Emily Kimbrough. Also the humor..."

I can't believe you listed Emily Kimbrough!!! Yay! :-) Our Hearts Were Young and Gay: An Unforgettable Comic Chronicle of Innocents Abroad in the 1920s was one of my favorite books as a teen and it was practically unheard of by the 1990s.

[Kathryn, The Princess of Picture-Books]

For me the span of the Harry Potter books spotlights the span of Middle Grade to YA and is also one of the finest examples of the genres. In the earlier books, Harry and Co. are very much children though the books do not in any way dumb down... the few bits of "rude humor" are genuinely funny and are not simply added to pander to children... the relationship between Harry and Ron and Hermione is not boys vs. girls in "ew cooties" way when they are young. As he gets older, his budding interest in girls is handled respectfully, sure, he finds Cho attractive, but she's also smart and interesting and a good Quidditch player... and somewhat intimidating! As Harry matures, so do the wider themes in the book, but never simply to be sensationalist. Harry's knowledge of the world expands, it gets darker... but as the students' knowledge and awareness expands so does their ability to DO something about what they learn ... there is also some balance, some hope...some humor. Harry is an admirable hero with some very clear flaws. It all just feels genuine. These are the types of books I'm excited for my sons to encounter!

[Beverly, former Miscellaneous Club host]

Kathryn wrote: "For me the span of the Harry Potter books spotlights the span of Middle Grade to YA and is also one of the finest examples of the genres. In the earlier books, Harry and Co. are very much children ..."

My son loved these books and read them numerous times.

[Manybooks, Fiction Club host]

For me, the types of young adult novels I generally most enjoy reading are books that do not tend to go overboard with violence, sexuality, family dysfunction and the like. The stories might indeed mention these heavier issues and themes but also not for the most part dwell on them in an exaggerated manner.

For example, Susan Cooper’s brilliant King of Shadows is with regard to the entire Shakespeare and time travel scenario rather upper level Middle Grade, but main character Nat’s backstory of his father having committed suicide after his wife (Nat’s mother) died of cancer, this makes the story of King of Shadows just a bit more young adult and also probably more suitable for teenaged readers (although I would definitely consider King of Shadows more than suitable enough for readers above the age of twelve or so, for really, Nat’s father’s death is not dwelt on, it just is shown as Nat’s background and why he once in the past, so strongly feels that Will, that Shakespeare, is like a new father figure for him).

But really and furthermore, since it is usually around grade seven or so that students might first cover William Shakespeare in English class (we read one Shakespeare play every school year from grade seven to grade twelve), I would probably also consider the many youth oriented historical fiction or historical mystery books that feature Shakespeare and his time as more suitable (simply from the factual knowledge readers might have and bring) for individuals aged at least twelve.

[Susan]

I agree the YA books that I've loved don't dwell on tragedy but if it is there, it's incorporated into the back story. Not sensationalized or used to score political points. Think of SE Hinton. Those stories are about challenged youth but what the reader focuses on is the relationships between friends and relatives, the love that keeps them going. The love that transforms the characters. Perhaps for a bit older children I read them from 6th grade up and loved them.

[Kathryn, The Princess of Picture-Books]

I got to thinking about how these dystopian, dark themes are also so prevalent with adult novels and films these days. I think it's not just in YA. My husband and I watched a few of comedies from the late 80s and early 90s for some escapism when the pandemic began. I can't remember the last time something with that kind of lighthearted, "PG" type humor or plot line was put in theaters for adults. We don't even have "rom-coms" on the big screen anymore. I'm not saying we should ignore the heavier issues, but it would be nice to have some balance. Alternatives exist, like the Hallmark Channel. And "chick lit" and that sort of novel for adults. I'm wondering... does that type of book exist in the YA market today? So many of my favorite books featuring teens are from yesteryear, but I know there must be some Annes and Emilys, some Betsys and Tacys, or "Little Women" out there today... is anyone writing this type of book for today's teens? Something modern, with more diversity, etc. but with some of the same feel as these "oldies"?

[Manybooks, Fiction Club host]

Kathryn wrote: "I got to thinking about how these dystopian, dark themes are also so prevalent with adult novels and films these days. I think it's not just in YA. My husband and I watched a few of comedies from t..."

For me, I often feel stuck in the middle, with both reading and watching especially American television shows and series. I do not want either my shows or my books to be too dark but I also do not have much patience for overt silliness, so especially with TV shows I often veer towards the BBC, as even many of their mysteries are not usually overly violent and sometimes downright funny in places.

[Kathryn, The Princess of Picture-Books]

Manybooks wrote: " I often veer towards the BBC, as even many of their mysteries are not usually overly violent and sometimes downright funny in places."

I do, too. I suppose I'm thinking of those people who do not enjoy period pieces, whether there are any contemporary teen books that don't feature mature themes? One that recently came to mind is Geekerella; I'm not sure if it's marketed as YA but it features a high school student, no sex, very sweet romance, and is not too dark/heavy. I really enjoyed it.

[Manybooks, Fiction Club host]

Kathryn wrote: "Manybooks wrote: " I often veer towards the BBC, as even many of their mysteries are not usually overly violent and sometimes downright funny in places."

I do, too. I suppose I'm thinking of those..."

For me, what really marks a novel as truly the kind of YA book that I would probably not consider appropriate for readers below thirteen or fourteen is the depiction of gratuitous violence, and yes, this considerably more than sexuality. And I have always (as a person with German background and a more continental European attitude towards issues of nudity and such) felt kind of aghast that oh so often overt and horrible depictions of violence seem to be less of an issue of contention in North America, in the USA and Canada (both with films and with books) than sexuality and off colour language.

[Cheryl, Host of Miscellaneous and Newbery Clubs]

Kathryn, I started a new topic for recommendations.