SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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Hollow Kingdom
Group Reads Discussions 2020
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"The Hollow Kingdom" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
Ah, great that the thread is up, cause I wanted to ask you, Allison, how you would compare the humour here with that in Gideon. I saw that you didn't like it here, but I know you liked Gideon.While reading "Hollow Kingdom" several times I had the feeling that I should not like the sassy narrator's voice, cause I didn't like it in Gideon, but here it totally worked for me - and I don't know where I put the line. So perhaps it is only my impression that the voices are similiar and others see a big difference there.
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Allison wrote: "I think Gideon was snarky while this is bawdy or ribald."Thanks, I think I get the difference it makes for you.
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I DNF'ed this for a few reasons:1) The narrator (and general tone of the book) felt too crass to me. This was far and away the primary reason. Right around 50% ST made a comment that made me just want to put the book down.
2) I felt like the story wasn't really going anywhere, more just ST exploring the world and how it had changed. At 50% I didn't feel like enough progress had been made.
3) Growing up with allergies I never had any pets and so I think a lot of the pet-centric humor was lost on me
4) I think if I lived near Seattle all those references would mean more to me, but I don't
At the end of the day, if this is a comedy and I haven't laughed at all or feel amused by the halfway point I just think I'm not the right audience for it,
(also not a big fan of zombie books in general)
I mostly liked the humor. What went wrong was the plot that tried to do too much. I think that a much shorter book that had ST save the domestic animals and ponder his place in the new world would have been better. The prophecy, the One Who Conquers, the Weavers, etc. were a mess. The Big Bad is a superpack of wolves? Then you have the bioengineered Weavers pulled out of nowhere.I'd probably give it 2.5 stars, if GR had such a thing. Rounded up to 3 because I did laugh a fair amount.
I felt the same, Chris. I was laughing a lot and had a great time with the book, until it became 'overwritten'. From Dennis' funeral scene on, which felt tacky and unearned there was just too much of everything. But I would definitely pick up the next book from the author in hope she developed her story structuring a bit, cause I enjoyed her writing.
I could use some advice on this one. It looks like something I'd like, but if there's animal abuse I won't read it. I know this is the spoiler thread so maybe someone can let me know if I should avoid this?
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Allison wrote: "This book is about animals in a zombie apocalypse. The zombies crave flesh, and predators are introduced to prey-intensive areas. If zombified people eating living animals or bigger animals gorily ..."Got it-thanks for the heads up!
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Even though I enjoyed the book, I did skim through some of the denser parts. After finishing the story, I felt I really knew the author. Although I had forgotten she was a woman. I guess I thought only men could come up with some of the language used! The author did say that she was even surprised at the language that turned up. I enjoyed the evolution of ST as he went from mofo to crow to mofo/crow using all his experiences and knowledge to survive in an unsafe world. Thinking outside the box so to speak. The environmental and animal planet stuff we all know but it was a reminder to stay on track. In the end, I felt this was a love story about Seattle, family & home. I know I came away with a hopeful heart.
I very much agree with Gabi's sentiments. I loved the unique voices, the snapshots of different animals (Genghis Cat stole the show). S.T. was great. I don't mind crass humor and I felt like it was very fitting for a crow. I definitely laughed a lot and the author showed a lot of skill with voice and language. The animals all felt very real and I could tell Buxton put a lot of love and knowledge in their depictions. A bit after the halfway mark, when it descended into heavy soopiness, I found myself skimming the more boring parts. I did like the way it ended, with the baby in Alaska, but I super hate the addiction-to-technology-is-what-will-kill-us plotline. There's a lot of things humans do to screw up the natural world, and that's fair, but iPhones cause us to be less connected? Maybe I'm salty about it because of COVID, but jeez. That's dumb.
I should say I don't mind that it deviated from humor into drama, and I liked the overall character arc for S.T., and felt he really earned it. It was just excessive. Like Gabi said, Dennis' funeral chapter was kind of awful. (And for that matter, I resented Cinnamon's death too.)
@Patricia: I love your thoughts! S.T.'s identity crisis was terrificly done. I especially loved the part where he realised that he detested penguins only because his mofo did and they turned out not as bad as he thought. It was great to follow his slow discovery of who he is and who he wants to be.@Kari: Indeed, the humor felt very 'crow-like' to me as well (or how I imagine a crow brain to work - anybody else who was astonished that he didn't go for the eyeball when it was mentioned falling out?)
Oh yes! Cinnamon's death really got to me! Such a brave little one! I loved her to pieces.
Gabi wrote: "@Kari: Indeed, the humor felt very 'crow-like' to me as well (or how I imagine a crow brain to work - anybody else who was astonished that he didn't go for the eyeball when it was mentioned falling out?)Didn't he save it somewhere in case Big Jim could put it back in? Lol. It was kind of sweet.
Kari wrote: "Didn't he save it somewhere in case Big Jim could put it back in? Lol. It was kind of sweet. ..."I was like "why doesn't he eat it? Crows love eyeballs?" XD - but of course that's the epitome of his identification as mofo.
Allison wrote: "No problem!! You can also always message me and I'll try to make sure you get relevant facts without any risk of spoilers beyond the need to know."That's so nice of you-thanks again!
I loved this! I do recognize it's flaws. The plot became a pretty big mess. I can certainly see why people would be turned off by the crassness. Some of the message was a bit muddy. (And I don't know if anyone else has told you yet, Allison, but it's a good thing you stopped when you did. There were awful spider abominations later on that were just not necessary.) However, the little gems in this story absolutely made it for me. I ADORED the juxtaposition of crass language and poignant imagery. I appreciated that this was an indictment on how humanity interacts with the world, while also recognizing human capacity for creativity, ingenuity and compassion. Big Jim was obviously a giant mess, but we learn things about him through S.T. that give him depth. Like when he marks the windows so S.T. doesn't run into them, or hugs Dennis extra hard for a very long time after he almost gets hit by a car, or even how he gave up the woman who he was going to propose to because she didn't like Dennis or S.T. ("Crows before hoes." Not the best word usage, but I appreciate the sentiment.)
Genghis Cat is EVERYTHING. From his sock hoard, to his decision that he owns the orangutan.
I loved all the different POV's, the insights into how the natural world works, the ideas of Aura and Echo and Web. I was thrilled with the ridiculous turns of phrase and the unexpected emotional punches.
I feel like I could keep going, but I've rambled enough. I really hope this author writes more!
Kristin B. wrote: "I loved this! I do recognize it's flaws. The plot became a pretty big mess. I can certainly see why people would be turned off by the crassness. Some of the message was a bit muddy. (And I don't kn..."I love your perspective, especially on how the juxtaposition of the language and imagery sheds light on humanity's capacity for such great heights and lows. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I love it.
I also liked the depth given to Big Jim. He's not a guy I would ever want to hang out with, but I appreciated him more, and understood why S.T. loved him so much, from those little scenes you're talking about. I always enjoy books that help me empathize with and understand people I wouldn't normally like.
And I, too, could never love a person who did not love my pets. So I mean. Same.
So many aspects to potentially love here. but given that I'm not the least bit interested in zombies or vulgarity, and given that I see ppl who dnf'd much further along, I'll just have to stop early. If you're reading it for the crow, consider The Mob by Clem Martini.
But please, what does the title mean?
Cheryl wrote: "But please, what does the title mean?""Hollow" refers to the houses that humans build.
Cheryl wrote: "But please, what does the title mean?"Isn't "hollow" the term other animals use for humans? Like S.T. uses "MoFo"?
Christopher wrote: "(also not a big fan of zombie books in general)"This I guess is the largest drawback for me. I groaned out load when I realized it's a zombie apocalypse book =_=
I'm still at 12% and I don't think I'll continue, I don't enjoy it, already skimmed through to get to the end of the chapter, and I don't find the humor witty or fun enough to get me through this.
I thought the Weavers and such were referred to as Hollows also.
Christopher wrote: "I DNF'ed this for a few reasons:1) The narrator (and general tone of the book) felt too crass to me. This was far and away the primary reason. Right around 50% ST made a comment that made me just..."
I finished it and check, check, check and check. It didn't change.
Kari wrote: "Gabi wrote: "@Kari: Indeed, the humor felt very 'crow-like' to me as well (or how I imagine a crow brain to work - anybody else who was astonished that he didn't go for the eyeball when it was ment..."Didn't he save it somewhere in case Big Jim could put it back in? Lol. It was kind of sweet.
He did but he put it in some sort of treat jar. Later he was feeding Dennis the treats and realized he may have fed him the eyeball also.
I was not a fan of this. The crass humor might have worked for me if it was confined to ST but it was consistent across the characters. And then I was so happy about the cute scene with Dennis swimming the iPad across the lake only to have it followed by an extraordinarily stupid death. It was like... not anti-climactic, but cross-climactic. It was just dumb.And like Chris, I think too much was thrown in when the cancer-like-evolved zombie MoFos were added in. And all of the One who Keeps and One who Conquers stuff. Although it was funny when it turned out the "One" who Conquers was just that they didn't do plurals. And what was the One who Keeps? What did that mean? And that Orangutan was awfully savvy on breaking a window and reaching in to undo the lock. That's some pretty advanced logic, it seems like something it would have to have been taught.
It was cute in places and had a lot of promise, but it was a mess as far as the writing and plot went.
I'm glad the group read it, though, because I was really wanting to read this one. And I have LOTS of time on my hands right now.
I loved this book, and was happy to see the end of the world from a nonhuman perspective. The ending broke my heart.
Hayley wrote: "I loved this book, and was happy to see the end of the world from a nonhuman perspective. The ending broke my heart."Which part? The baby they found?
I found the book to be a bit too vulgar for me which..... I didn't know was possible.? I enjoyed a zombie book that didn't have scaring as the primary drive - doing from animal perspective was nice change. I found myself skimming the middle section to get to the slightly better written ending. yeah the Hollows are humans ... cause we wre hollow and cut off from nature? so our kingdom is hollow. the rapid mutation was a bit hard to swallow tho. agreed on the unexpected deaths
I must have been in the perfect mood for this story, because I just leaned back and enjoyed the ride. To see the world in a somewhat animistic worldview was refreshing, and I didn't mind the crass tone. ST charmed me as a character, and so did his companions. All in all, I loved the humour as well as the action, the hope, despair and horror. It was a wild ride - beautiful, weird and terrifying at the same time. The plot with the zombies being triggered by phones reminded me of Cell by Stephen King (the only other zombie book I've read, or at least, I think so), and to me, it illustrated how vulnerable our modern society can be. That's kinda old news, I suppose, but I didn’t mind that here. I was more curious about the "what then" than the "why," for some reason. Probably because it was written in a crow's POV.
I didn't love everything - I’m not sure how I feel about Dennis’ death. It seemed so meaningless. And sure, that's life, but I don't have to like it. I’m not sure how I feel about the ending, either. The ending was hopeful and beautiful, and still… The idea of a baby growing up without a warm and secure caretaker scares me, to be honest. People need people. Still, this book was an engaging read, and I'm glad I checked it out!
I thought the character of ST was really clever. I liked how he was oblivious to his own humor. There were also some really poignant observations, such as "Butterflies live short lives because they have mastered the art of living. They serve to pass it on with luminous bursts of joy, bright flickers from the other side."I personally liked the humor, partially because it was obvious he wasn't trying to be crass. He was simply reflecting the attitude of Big Jim. I don't think I would have liked Big Jim as a character, having him already dead worked really well.
I am having trouble finishing this book honestly. Partially because of stuff going on IRL but also because I'm not really eager to find out what happens next. I feel like he should be on a quest (I'm only about 1/3 through) but instead it just seems like a series of observations. There is no "will he succeed?" Instead, I feel like the expectation is that he will not succeed or even come close. His identity struggle between crow/human is kind of interesting but he doesn't seem overly conflicted about it.
This book reminded me of "The Stupidest Angel: A Heartwarming Tale of Christmas Terror" by Christopher Moore.
BookTurtle360 wrote: "I personally liked the humor, partially because it was obvious he wasn't trying to be crass. He was simply reflecting the attitude of Big Jim. I don't think I would have liked Big Jim as a character, having him already dead worked really well."Perfect! Thank you, BookTurtle360, for phrasing this so well (I'm not good with English and I'm always more than happy when somebody forms my thoughts into words and I can just point at it saying "That's! That's what I thought." :D)
This is exactly the reason why I had zero problems with ST's voice.
I thought that readers of this book might enjoy an article I saw today.Can the wood-wide web really help trees talk to each other?
https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/m...
Chris wrote: "I thought that readers of this book might enjoy an article I saw today.Can the wood-wide web really help trees talk to each other?
https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/m......"
Thank you! I just read The Hidden Lives of Trees which Buxton said in her notes she used as part of her research for the book. It talks a lot about trees and now they communicate with each other and I was thrilled when I saw how Buxton used that here. Highly recommend if you're interested in this sort of thing.
Thanks, yeah this is really interesting - I read a bit about trees communicating like that a couple of years back when I read the final quest in ElfQuest (Wendy & Richard Pini). Fungi mimicking elves.... that was an interesting concept! But yeah, I loved the nature communicating in this book. I think I read something recently about new research supporting that we as humans pick up more signals like these than we are aware of? Something about electromagnetic something something and brains working in sync. Could explain how some feel "vibes" and experience telepathy-like happenings. Sorry guys, I'm derailing the chat, and this probably sounds like nonsense. Wish I saved those articles, hah.
Camilla wrote: "Thanks, yeah this is really interesting - I read a bit about trees communicating like that a couple of years back when I read the final quest in ElfQuest (Wendy & Richard Pini). Fungi mimicking elv..."Not at all! That sounds fascinating and I've always wondered about that. Multiple discovery, synchronicity, etc. If you find those articles again, let me know.
I will do that, Kari! :)
Camilla, thank you for revealing the end. Now I am very glad that I didn't finish the book, because I'd've come up with some crass language after reading about that infant, myself.
I started listening to this tonight and have just started Ch. 4. I'll read the rest of the thread once I'm done but I would already like to say that I find ST and his warped worldview hilarious.And I love the other narrators. Genghis Cat is amazing.
I do like zombies but wow I hated this book. I am mad that I spent my day off reading it, and mad that I persevered through it (skimming, admittedly) to the end. Yuck. Basically tracks with many things I dislike while taking what I do like and messing it up. Also felt pretentious at times to me, but that’s more likely just my intense dislike of it. I just... no.
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I FINALLY finished!!! After finding out the name of the main character, I didn’t think there would be any way that I would like this book. I had images of South Park, Trailer Park Boys, and Tiger King coming to mind (which, great if you like that sort of thing... just not for me thanks). Happily, it turned out that I was wrong! I don’t know if it’s just the mood that I’m in due to the emergency lockdown, but I think this is just what I needed.
As some of the other members have mentioned, ST’s vulgar speech (and name) is used to poke fun at his owner and the sort of people who use this kind of language IRL. It didn’t bother me so much because we weren’t supposed to take it seriously. The fact that ST himself has no idea how vile the language is just added to the comic value. BookTurtle360 pretty much summed up my feelings on this. I can see why some people might find this kind of humour condescending or even snobbish though. Big Jim might have actually been a pretty stand up guy...
The first few chapters or so had me crying with laughter. Many people here have talked about Genghis the cat (who I loved btw), but my favourite was probably Winnie the poodle (who talks in third poodle). I’ve actually gone back and read the second chapter several times because it makes me laugh so much (why do I feel like I am revealing some sort of dirty secret by telling you all this??). Also, I really recommend the audio version of the book, Rupert Petkoff’s delivery is hilarious!
Onto the negatives... I felt like Buxton was trying to be funny all the time. And she is funny, but it was overkill. For me, the comedy lost some of its punch and I ended up skimming much of the dialogue as I was getting exhausted and slightly exasperated reading through all the superfluous rambling. At several points I wanted to yell “Yes Kira, I get it! You are funny and clever, but let’s move on with the story please.”
I agree with Sarah and Chris, the author added far too many complications to the plot. A virus... an unexplainable social media/ screen time/technology virus (?)... zombie humans ... mutated humans... Weavers... I feel like she should have just stuck with one and ran with it. Perhaps if I weren’t skimming so much it would have made more sense, but it all seemed a bit all over the place to me. To be fair, I should probably try to read it again sometime without skimming.
Overall, I liked it. The book had an original take on a genre that (I feel) has been overdone in the last decade. It made me laugh and took my mind off the actual pandemic. As it is, I think this would work really well as an animated Netflix series (with spin-offs for Winnie and Genghis of course), but as a book, it needed to be a bit more concise. With a little more editing and the plot cleared up a bit, I would have probably given this 4 or even 5 stars.
I love it when a book is exactly the right book at the right time. I'm glad it fit your mood so well.
Descriptive but fast-paced. Thoughtful and vulgar (sometimes). Funny and sad. I thought Buxton did a great job of bringing these together. My expectations after reading the blurb included some crass humor, a sense of adventure, and I had no idea where this might go as far as a story. All fair assumptions.The last third was a little confusing as far as the plot-I am not sure if this was intentional but it seemed like the story's climax was the encounter with the bird-mofos. That scene is way scarier than the defining last battle with the wolves (who were just . . . wolves) and spider mofos.
Most impressive to me was the author's immersive prose though. Love that irreverent but not full of itself tone. Or full of itself, but written in third-poodle. I will gladly pick up her next book.
Also: Robert Petkoff was fantastic as the audiobook's narrator.
I was late to this book because I had it on hold from the library, but I pretty much agree with everyone who rated it 3 stars. It had some great parts, but the plot was a little convoluted. The Weavers and the Bird things kind of just came out of nowhere.I felt like there was some beautiful prose nestled in there, but it was a little weird to have a line of something really well written, and then S.T. talks about crapping himself or something.
Dennis dying the way he did just missed the mark for me. If he had died leading the bird zombie things to their deaths, or doing anything with a purpose, it would have been perfect. Same impact of loss, but for a reason instead of just randomly out of nowhere.
I also like the other animal POVs and I wish they were a bit more prominent in the story. They didn't have to have multiple more POVs, but I think it would have been nice to have Winnie and Ghengis interact with S.T.
Like a lot of others mentioned, I think the author had a lot of good things going on in this book despite the flaws, so I would definitely read whatever she writes next.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate: Discoveries from a Secret World (other topics)The Mob (other topics)
A few questions to start us off, no need to stick to them though:
1. What did you think of ST?
2. What worked or didn't for you in the humor?
3. Did the end track with the rest of the book?
4. Overall thoughts?