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David Copperfield - Group Read 1 > May - June 2020: David Copperfield: chapters 1-14

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message 351: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2020 06:40AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Chapter 10:

As soon as she can Miss Murdstone dismisses Peggotty with a month's notice. Peggotty looks all over the village of Blunderstone for work, so she can still be near her Davy, but there is nothing.

She decides to marry Barkis, and talks about this first to Davy, and also to her brother in Yarmouth. They also manage to persuade Jane Murdstone to allow Davy to visit her brother for a fortnight, and Barkis takes the two there in his cart.

Davy gets a warm welcome at the boathouse in Yarmouth, and finds everybody exactly the same as before, except that Em'ly has grown up a little. She now goes to school, and is a little coquettish in her behaviour. Davy does not mind this, and is still as entranced as before. They all talk of Steerforth with admiration.

Barkis calls at the boathouse, is as taciturn as ever in his conversations, but leaves odd little gifts behind for Peggotty. On a day out, the couple leave the rest of the party and get married in a little church, without any fuss.



The party leaving on a day out, despite Mrs. Gummidge having cast a gloom over everything - by 'Phiz'

As soon as Peggotty has gone to her new marital home, Davy begins to feel even more lonely and neglected. He is aware that nobody wants him at "Blunderstone Rookery" and he feels so neglected that he wonders what would become of him if he became ill. He is allowed to visit Peggotty once, and she tells Davy in secret that Barkis is "near" (miserly) and hoards money in a chest under his bed.

One day a business acquaintance of Mr Murdstone's comes to visit, and both Davy and he remember having met before, in Lowestoft, all that time ago before his mother married Mr Murdstone.

At the end of the day, Mr Murdstone explains that it is time for Davy to earn his own living: "What is before you, is a fight with the world; and the sooner you begin it, the better.’" He is to start work for the gentleman, Mr Quinion, in the counting house of "Murdstone and Grinby", in the wine trade.



A 'cigarette card' image by 'Kyd', of stern Mr Murdstone

Davy is sad to be told that his education has ended, despite the "promise" he showed. But Mr Murdstone is adamant, and details exactly what will be paid by him, and what by Davy, out of his earnings. He is sent away in the cart the next morning.


message 352: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2020 06:47AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
The section about Barkis and Peggotty is full of good humour, and very entertaining.

But Davy is so sad and forlorn:

"'Peggotty,' I said in a thoughtful whisper, one evening, when I was warming my hands at the kitchen fire, 'Mr. Murdstone likes me less than he used to. He never liked me much, Peggotty; but he would rather not even see me now, if he can help it.'"

Is it possible that he reminds Mr Murdstone of Clara, because of his looks? Or is this too generous? Davy also observes that he is "angry" - which is also a stage of grief.

But how sorry we feel for Davy, being accused of "moping and droning" and Miss Murdstone insisting that "stubbornness [needs] to be crushed."

Mr Murdstone is more careful how he justifies it, but the result is the same:

"You have received some considerable education already. Education is costly; and even if it were not, and I could afford it, I am of opinion that it would not be at all advantageous to you to be kept at school."

Davy knows full well that this is what is convenient to the Murdstones, and suspects it will not benefit him. But perhaps after all, Davy will find that this is a good opportunity. It does seem as though the gentleman feels sorry for him - and possibly disapproving of Mr Murdstone not continuing David's education - and this may be why he offers employment:

"‘He having,’ Mr. Quinion observed in a low voice, and half turning round, ‘no other prospect, Murdstone.’"

He is nine, or perhaps now ten, years old:

"Day after day, week after week, month after month, I was coldly neglected."

It's time for something nice to happen to David. Whenever he start to love anything - or anybody - he seems to lose them. But only time will tell.


message 353: by Robin P (new)

Robin P i salute you, Jean, for this project of daily updates! I am a moderator in another group and sometimes updating weekly seems like a challenge. The chapter a day approach is eliciting a lot of discussion, which is great.


message 354: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
I'm a little worried that Barkis is miserly. We know quite a few misers in Charles Dickens's novels, and nothing good ever comes from it ... And it's so ironic that Peggotty had said:

"...I think I should be more independent altogether, you see; let alone my working with a better heart in my own house, than I could in anyone else's now."


message 355: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2020 07:10AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Aw thank you Robin! Yes, its unusual to have a daily summary, but seems to work well, at least with David Copperfield. I want to keep them as brief summaries that we can navigate around - but so much seems to happen!

And I trust you'll all let me know if/when it's not necessary :) I'm hoping Nisa and others are still finding it useful - I'm just so amazed that several here are reading it in their second language :)


message 356: by Katy (new)

Katy | 285 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra and Katy You think I am "too kind" to Murdstone? (Katy) Ah, I agree with everyone that he is vile! But I see chinks in his armour, which may or may not lead to some kind of change.

We've all..."


Jean, don't apologize for the long post. This is good information to put the story in the context of the time when it was written. I really do not doubt that there are chinks in Mr. Murdstone's armor, as you put it. And I think he really believes in "firmness", but it is a belief that gives him an excuse to be cruel. I also don't doubt that his own upbringing had a lot to due with his temperament. But knowing why someone is the way they are does not always make them any easier to put up with. I think Mr. Murdstone probably did love David's mother in a very self centered way but, because of his temperament he had to destroy all of her happiness in the process, and probably, indirectly, her life as well, although he likely does not realize that.


message 357: by Katy (new)

Katy | 285 comments I agree with Robin. I like the daily summaries. They let me know if I missed anything. I am liking the whole setup of this discussion. The daily summaries mark boundaries that let us know that we are now discussing a new chapter and if you are not this far yet in the book, you know where to stop reading posts. I'm sticking to one chapter per day even though sometimes I want to read ahead. This makes it easier to follow along with the discussion without trying to remember what happened in which chapter.


message 358: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2173 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra and Katy You think I am "too kind" to Murdstone? (Katy) Ah, I agree with everyone that he is vile! But I see chinks in his armour, which may or may not lead to some kind of change...."

Not at all, Jean. The Murdstones are horrible people.
That said, every child is born without their character traits. These traits are learned through life (usually childhood) and an adult person is formed. So, in some manner, the Murdstones are products of their upbringing. They were helpless in this.

But......as we become adults, we can look and see ourselves and make changes to become the person we want to be. That means that we can decide to not be the person we were brought up to be. It's a difficult transformation but it can be done.

Therefore, the Murdstones could have changed to less harsher versions of themselves, had they realized their harshness or wanted to be more loving. They would always carry parts of their formed personality but with less sharp edges.

We can give them a benefit of the doubt and say they haven't realized their harsh manner and think their manner is "normal" for all of their class (and perhaps it is). It's still hard on their immediate family.

No matter how we look at it, though, the Murdstones are a sad example of expectations toward society and a blatant look at losing the true self to that expectation. Their upbringing put Society ahead of the Individual and in the process destroyed the True Self.


message 359: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2173 comments An interesting question could be asked:
If the Murdstones were shown affection, would they be changed over time? People are afraid of them and not themselves around them. What if people recognized the damaged, inner selves and treated the Murdstones with a touch of gentleness? Would that change them?
It may not be possible for such hard cases as the Murdstones.


message 360: by Rosemarie (new)

Rosemarie | 306 comments I noticed that Murdstone himself seemed to disapprove of his sister's sharp words, but he still doesn't want to be burdened with David.
Poor David-what a lonely life of neglect!


message 361: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Katy - Thank you! That's exactly what I had hoped, and also includes a sort of anchor, for those who may wish to take this read faster :)

Petra - Yes, that's a good analysis from a psychological point of view.

You also pose an interesting question, where possibilities may still arise, especially since we are less than a quarter through the book.

Also it could be argued that "Their upbringing put Society ahead of the Individual and in the process destroyed the True Self" is still with us today, in some Western societies who put commerce above everything.


message 362: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2020 09:59AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
What I particularly like about reading classic novels is that people may attempt to step outside the confines of their time, class and culture.

In David Copperfield we have seen varied examples, from several strata of the culture I described, with no exceptions as yet - except perhaps Traddles. We have a continuum between an average servant class (though more extremes may be introduced) and a slight variation in the gentry, with Creakle being more corrupt than Murdstone, and Doctor Chillip being less extreme. We cannot yet sum up Aunt Betsey as an example of this class - and there are many more (very entertaining!) characters to introduce.

Charles Dickens will not let us down, and stick to one narrow segment, but I'm sure will cover a huge range of individuals and situations, within the society he knows.


message 363: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2020 10:21AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Rosemarie wrote: "I noticed that Murdstone himself seemed to disapprove of his sister's sharp words, but he still doesn't want to be burdened with David..."

I too thought this part was revealing of Edward Murdstone's temperament. He was aware that his friend Mr. Quinion did not entirely approve of his decision, because a "sharp" boy like Davy could have had about a decade more education. So he was keen to downplay his sister's strong emotion, by rationalising and justifying his decision - as he said - in terms of the benefit to Davy. Jane Murdstone just said what she thought, as she always did.


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 21 comments So just a funny aside: I read a lot of Robert Heinlein’s SF novels when I was a teen. In his book The Puppet Masters there’s a running joke between the main character and a woman he’s interested in about “Miss Barkis is willing.” I never knew what that was referencing until now!


message 365: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Tadiana - I love it when that sort of thing happens, and everything just slots into place :)


message 366: by France-Andrée (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments I'm up to chapter 9 so next comment, I'll be actually interacting and I can't wait... In french speaking Quebec, I haven't gotten to ever discuss my favorite author; I get some strange looks from native english speakers because they were made to read him in school and it wasn't a pleasant experience, but I found him as an adult and from the first moment I was gone.

Chapter 7 : I was in boarding school and as much as it has changed, in the 80s it had still a lot in common with what Davy goes through. I wasn't beaten, but I was interrogated for hours when I was accused of stealing... cookies, I hadn't, but after 3 or 4 hours I confessed and when by co-accused still held firm in the denial, I was punished for lying so the Catholic sisters had a harsh idea of discipline too and never, ever would have said they were wrong (oh, and I was 10).

I really have a difficulty with some characters because I remember what they do later on and that tints what I should see has lighthearted or innocent. I do agree that Victorians had a lot of ideas about what socially was acceptable or not, it is sad to think that someone like Mr. Mell could not advance in life just because of when and where he was born.

Chapter 8 : It is nice to have a last time of happiness with Clara and Peggotty, but it was very clear that the mother was not going to be there further on. About being silent in the parlour, the "A child should be seen not heard" (I might be paraphrasing) is a Victorian proverb, isn't is? Vacation time should be about having fun (and yes in my case it was alone in my room with my books), but even my mother thought it was a good time to get up early and do chores... leaving an alarm clock to wake me up when I was a teenager, I would wake up, get up, shut if off and go back to bed!

Chapter 9 : I thought myself quite out of danger of crying until Peggotty retelling the last moments of Clara, it did make me shed a tear. I wonder what killed his mother, it doesn't seen to be consumption, only feeling weak.. after having a child? consequences of that since the child died too? How old is the little baby, less than half a year since Clara didn't seem to be showing before Davy left for his half-term (well, he doesn't comment about it or I missed something really subtle) and it is born before he come back.


message 367: by Debra Diggs (new)

Debra Diggs Chapter 10 had a lot of fun it. I loved the gifts Mr. Barkis gave Peggotty. I had to google pigs’ trotters. David is 10 and going to work. They needed child labor laws, but did not have them.

A quote from Katy, message 356, that I completely agree with, "But knowing why someone is the way they are does not always make them any easier to put up with."

Jean, I like the daily summaries.


message 368: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2020 02:55PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
France-Andrée - I too discovered Charles Dickens for myself as an adult! I think he was more revered in American schools than in English ones, at the time. And I can remember the exact moment when I said to my husband, "But he's so funny!" Somehow there's something special about authors you encounter this way - I felt like that as a child in a library too. Anyway, now you do have somewhere to discuss your favourite author, and with lots of us who are just as keen on him as you are :)

Oh my, an ultra-strict boarding school in the 1980s. That's the sort of thing I meant. I feel so sorry for the young France-Andrée :(

Yes "A child should be seen and not heard" was the expression - and the belief.

We're not really told why Davy's mother died. Charles Dickens doesn't say anything about coughing, so I don't think it can be consumption. In fact the most common cause of death after childbirth in the 19th century was puerperal fever or sepsis.

On the other hand, although I think the baby was tiny as you say, Davy was with her and the baby for a while, and she seemed weak, rather than gravely ill (unless it is just that a young child would not recognise this).

Peggotty did tell Davy that the baby became ill, and then Clara got worse. Perhaps she thought she had lost all the joy in her life, with everything that had happened, and simply lost the will to live, dying of a broken heart :(


message 369: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Debra - I agree with all this - and thank you :)


message 370: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments My thoughts on this chapter are very similar. The courtship between Mr. Barkis and Peggotty lightened the mood. I thought it was funny the way Mr. Barkis left gifts for Peggotty to find.

I would be very interested in knowing if A. A. Milne was a fan of Dickens. It occurred to me while reading this chapter that Mrs. Gummidge might have been the inspiration behind the loveable but gloomy Eeyore. It’s probably a stretch but she’s such a pessimistic “creetur” in spite of all the encouragement she receives. Yet, like Eeyore she does manage to make me smile. It’s almost as if I’d be disappointed if she didn’t put a damper on things. Lol!

Debra: I had to look up pigs’ trotters too!


message 371: by France-Andrée (last edited May 10, 2020 05:02PM) (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments A lighter chapter than the preceding one, but still the mourning is very present. I dislike when a book or telly show kills a major character and next chapter or episode it's not even mentioned! Chapter 10 would have been the first chapter in the fourth installment? So this continuation of the process is a month later to contemporary readers.

It is nice how Peggotty is very loyal and would never abandon Davy. Did she marry only for Davy though? I know how the courtship is very funny, but does she have darker intentions? I mean she wouldn't be able to continue to see Davy if she had a new situation, so she decides to go to her brother where visiting Davy once a week will still be possible and then she has this brilliant idea to marry Barkis! Can see Davy a lot more and can keep a distant eye on the house (plus be near the cemetery where she can visit as much as she likes). Now, I can understand wanting your own home (as a modern woman, I do take that for granted) after having been in service probably since she was a little girl or teenager, I do hope she wont regret her decision.

Davy going back to Yarmouth and having things change there too especially his relationship with Em'ly who is not as impressed with him as she was. That spoiler is really for people who have read the book before.(view spoiler) The Yarmouth episodes are really a fond memory for him, but I think he might be idealizing it.

I think we needed this lighter start to the chapter because once Davy is back "home" things do not go better. Murdstone, I think, would have been happy to continue neglecting his young charge, but I think not wanting to spends anymore money on him for school and wanting him very far away from him, it's Quinion who gives him the idea about sending him to work.

Debra You are so right about child labor law, that I think is another inequality that Dickens really wanted to right. It took such a long time to have changes in this area and we know that in some countries right now, it is still the middle ages concerning this. I think that subject will come back in the coming chapter.

I'm really glad to to be reading this in a group. The different point of views are just enlightening.


message 372: by Robin P (last edited May 10, 2020 06:28PM) (new)

Robin P I think David’s mother died of Victorian Beautiful Wasting Disease. No, that isn’t a real thing, but it shows up in novels and poems when people (mostly women and children) just get weak and fade away prettily. In real life at the time, there were plenty of diseases, but I think the victims would have had messier symptoms and significant pain. So-called “childbed fever”, that mysteriously killed women after the birth, turned out to be caused by doctors who didn’t wash after coming from other sick, or dead patients. But that would have claimed Clara within days after the birth.


message 373: by France-Andrée (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments Oh yes, VBWD is a very popular disease with 19th Century authors and not all of them English. Charles Dickens is guilty here for sure.


message 374: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 11, 2020 02:52PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Lori - I absolutely love the idea that Eeyore is based on Mrs Gummidge! I have A.A. Milne's autobiography, and don't remember him being especially influenced by Charles Dickens, but then given his background and education, he would have been almost bound to have read him. Actually, all the characters in Winnie-the-Pooh have recognisable psychological profiles ...


message 375: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
France-Andrée - Yes, we are now into the 4th installment, published in August 1849, and comprising chapters 10–12.

Emily told Davy when she first met him that she wanted to be a lady. (view spoiler)

I'm so pleased you're enjoying your reread with us :)


message 376: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 11, 2020 02:52PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Robin - your post made me laugh so much! Yes, for sure, what the Victorians called "childbed fever" (and I updated to the modern terms "puerperal fever or sepsis") was almost always caused by bad hygiene. We keep getting instance of the filth and squalor even in this book - in "Salem House" - and also what's coming up in chapter 11. It could well have started with that, and then developed into Clara just wasting away. That's what I believe to be the case, though it's unspecified.


message 377: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 11, 2020 02:54PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Chapter 11:

Davy is now ten, and labouring in a bottle-washing warehouse belonging to the firm of "Murdstone and Grinby", down on the wharf of the river Thames at Blackfriars. The firm supplies wines and spirits to packet ships, which explains the location. But it is filthy and infested with rats. Davy has to wash bottles, or stick labels on them, or corks, all day until 8pm. For this work he is paid 6 or 7 shillings a week.

The other boys working with Davy are Mick Walker, whose father is a bargeman, and the oddly named "Mealy Potatoes", (named for his unhealthy complexion). His father is a waterman, and a part-time fireman at one of the large London theatres.



Davy at Murdstone and Grinby's warehouse - Fred Barnard

Davy is absolutely miserable to be in such a degraded position. Working in the warehouse with boys unlike him, he feels that his life and all his potential is being wasted. However, he works hard, to avoid any criticism. The other boys call him a "little gent" - but enjoy him telling them stories, which, now Davy is away from his much-loved books, he feels he is beginning to forget.

In the middle of the day, Davy is introduced to a very genteel although shabby-looking man, called Mr. Micawber. Mr. Quinion tells Davy that he will be in lodgings with Mr Micawber and his family. Mr. Micawber, a "stoutest middle aged person", later collects Davy to show him the way to his house. That evening he meets Mrs. Micawber "a thin and faded lady, not at all young" plus two young children, and twins who were babies, and their servant, "a dark-complexioned young woman" who says she is "a Orfling", or orphan.

Davy is happy with this family, keeping himself apart, as he soon realises that they are short of money. Creditors are always coming to the house with demands, and Mr and Mrs Micawber seem very frightened at the time, but later they always forget about it. Mrs Micawber talks a lot about her papa and mama, and clearly was brought up in a wealthier family, but says her husband is "in difficulties at present".

The upstairs has no furnishings, and it becomes obvious that they are gradually selling off all their things. Mrs Micawber has always treated Davy as if he were a lot older than he is, and one day she confides to him, "Mr. Micawber’s difficulties are coming to a crisis." The only thing left to eat is a bit of cheese, so Davy immediately offers them all the money he has, but instead she asks him to help her to dispose of her belongings, such as books and silver, for cash.

Davy readily does this, and there are interludes where he negotiates with both shopkeepers and innkeepers, who always think this little lad behaving like a gentleman is an amusing novelty:



David's "magnificent order" at the public house - Phiz

Eventually though, there is nothing left of worth to sell, and Mr Micawber is taken off to debtors' prison, the "King’s Bench Prison" in the Borough. When Mr Micawber has organised a room, Mrs Micawber decides to take the children there too, and they all live there as a family, while David moves to a room very near the prison. Mr Micawber organises a campaign for better treatment for debtors, and soon her family decide to help Mr. Micawber, so that he should be released in about six weeks.

Mr Micawber always believes that "something will turn up" and Mrs Micawber "will never desert Mr Micawber".

Mr Micawber's most profound thought, much repeated, is this:

"if a man had twenty pounds a-year for his income, and spent nineteen pounds nineteen shillings and sixpence, he would be happy, but that if he spent twenty pounds one he would be miserable."


message 378: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 11, 2020 05:24AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
This is by far the most autobiographical chapter yet. It's quite staggering how much it reflects Charles Dickens's own life at this time.

David's going to work in the bottle factory is a direct parallel to Charles Dickens's own experience in Warren's Blacking Factory, and many passages are very similar to his own account of that time.

Here's an extract from John Forster's biography of Charles Dickens's early years from 1812 to 1842,

"It is wonderful to me how I could have been so easily cast away at such an age. It is wonderful to me that, even after my descent into the poor little drudge I had been since we came to London, no one had compassion enough on me — a child of singular abilities, quick, eager, delicate, and soon hurt, bodily or mentally — to suggest that something might have been spared, as certainly it might have been, to place me at any common school. Our friends, I take it, were tired out. No one made any sign. My father and mother were quite satisfied. They could hardly have been more so if I had been twenty years of age, distinguished at a grammar-school, and going to Cambridge."

Bitter and heartfelt. Now compare a section at the beginning of chapter 11 in David Copperfield,

it is matter of some surprise to me, even now, that I can have been so easily thrown away at such an age. A child of excellent abilities, and with strong powers of observation, quick, eager, delicate, and soon hurt bodily or mentally, it seems wonderful to me that nobody should have made any sign in my behalf. But none was made; and I became, at ten years old, a little labouring hind in the service of Murdstone and Grinby."

It's almost a vicarious confession - or admission - of how he could not understand his own parents' reasoning here. Some parts are duplicated word for word! The descriptions of the two warehouses are similarly described, with some parts also being identical.


message 379: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 11, 2020 05:25AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Does this sound at all familiar?

"I remember, one evening (I had been somewhere for my father, and was going back to the borough over Westminster Bridge), that I went into a public-house in Parliament Street,—which is still there, though altered, — at the corner of the short street leading into Cannon Row, and said to the landlord behind the bar, 'What is your very best — the VERY best — ale, a glass?' For the occasion was a festive one, for some reason: I forget why. It may have been my birthday, or somebody else's. 'Two-pence,' says he. 'Then,' says I, 'just draw me a glass of that, if you please, with a good head to it.'

The landlord looked at me, in return, over the bar, from head to foot, with a strange smile on his face, and, instead of drawing the beer, looked round the screen and said something to his wife, who came out from behind it, with her work in her hand, and joined him in surveying me.

Here we stand, all three, before me now, in my study in Devonshire Terrace. The landlord, in his shirt-sleeves, leaning against the bar window-frame; his wife, looking over the little half-door; and I, in some confusion, looking up at them from outside the partition. They asked me a good many questions, as what my name was, how old I was, where I lived, how I was employed, etc. etc. To all of which, that I might commit nobody, I invented appropriate answers.

They served me with the ale, though I suspect it was not the strongest on the premises; and the landlord's wife, opening the little half-door and bending down, gave me a kiss that was half admiring and half compassionate, but all womanly and good, I am sure."


No, it's not from chapter 11 of David Copperfield - though it might as well be! It's actually from John Forster's account of his life, from Charles Dickens's own experience again!

Little wonder then, that Dickens called this book his "favourite child"!


message 380: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 11, 2020 05:28AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
How about the names?

Murdstone and Grinby is another example of the clever puns or tricky word associations Dickens loves to include. We've talked about what "Murdstone" conveys, so how about "Grinby"? "Grinby" might make us think of a grindstone, (with the stone part from "Murdstone").

So here we are perhaps being told that David is "having his nose put to the grindstone".


message 381: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 11, 2020 07:07AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Wilkins Micawber is perhaps the most well-known parallel to a real person in Dickens's life. He's a direct portrait of Dickens's own father - an improvident gentleman - and his history in David Copperfield also mimics real life. What isn't mentioned quite so often is that his wife is also heavily based on his real-life mother.

I think it was Robin, who also mentioned how often Charles Dickens creates representations of his own mother. The most like (but also the most cruel) is in Nicholas Nickleby, where - just as she is here - she is caricatured as the protagonist's mother. She comes up in later novels too.

Dickens clearly feels he has to exorcise these memories somehow, without betraying his family - they come up so often!

And then there's his own consciousness of being socially superior to his working class fellows and also more intelligent. He feels humiliated by being with them. We get that with little Oliver Twist, never picking up the way of the Artful Dodger and his gang. Now we have a rerun, as David will not fraternise with Mick Walker and Mealy Potatoes and is referred to as "the little gent" by some of the workers at the warehouse.

I particularly like the "honour" of the Micawbers though. Susan said she thought of Steerforth as a sort of con man. So just think of the opportunities for him here! But unlike Steerforth, Mrs Micawber will not even accept a loan of money from Davy - let alone try to con him out of it. So I am happy that the great author Charles Dickens portrayed his parents as honest and honourable souls, despite their failings.


message 382: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 11, 2020 07:09AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Just a little more ...

Tomorrow we have a short chapter, but today there seemed to be so much in chapter 11! I love the authenticity of the London locations for instance. Charles Dickens often includes the river Thames in his books - and especially the horrible wharf area (though actually now it is full of upmarket bistros ...)

Also all those details of what Davy bought to eat! It was hilarious - but also could constitute an example of accurate Victorian social observation.

The most telling part for me though, this time through, was this passage, and its voice:

"When my thoughts go back, now, to that slow agony of my youth, I wonder how much of the histories I invented for such people hangs like a mist of fancy over well-remembered facts! When I tread the old ground, I do not wonder that I seem to see and pity, going on before me, an innocent romantic boy, making his imaginative world out of such strange experiences and sordid things!"

We're used to the young Davy's voice merging and then splitting off from the older David who is narrating it, but here we have another voice - the personal one of Charles Dickens himself. Perhaps that too will sometimes meld with the older David - and sometimes diverge.


message 383: by Robin P (last edited May 11, 2020 07:16AM) (new)

Robin P The autobiographical element is really striking here, as Jean points out. Young Charles was sent out to pawn or sell items for his family and he hated doing it. Besides the drudgery of work, he could only see his family on Sunday. He had no friends and didn't live with a charming family like the Micawbers.

When I read this and other Dickens works years ago, I thought how ridiculous it was to put people in debtor's prison. How can they pay back their debts when they are in prison? Usually they had to get someone else to pay or inherit some money, as happened to the Dickens family. But we do have something similar today if people are imprisoned because they can't pay bail money or because they haven't paid traffic tickets or other fines. (Not to get political, as this doesn't seem to me a partisan issue, more a practical one, and just wanting to show, that in this, as in some other social issues, we haven't evolved as far from the Victorians as we think.)


message 384: by Rosemarie (new)

Rosemarie | 306 comments I can picture lonely little David wandering the streets, always a little hungry and sad. He shows his honest nature by doing the best work he can in that boring job.
I'm glad the Micawbers don't take his money. Their life seems to be better in debtor's prison than in their own rooms.


message 385: by Michaela (new)

Michaela I don´t know much about Dicken´s life, but now I don´t wonder that he has a lot of stories with poor boys living a miserable life.

The drawing of his ordering the best ale looks funny, as David doesn´t look like a child, but a man, but drawn a bit smaller. The proportions aren´t that of a child, and he´s also dressed as a gent.


message 386: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Jean: I think this is your best summary thus far! You’ve really outdone yourself here. I love your thoughts about Grinby’s name. The excerpts from John Forster’s book were also very interesting. I also enjoyed reading about Davy’s food choices.

I had to chuckle a bit at Mr Micawber’s advice on living beneath your means which he can never seem to adhere to. But, oh aren’t the Micawbers an improvement over the Murdstones?


message 387: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments I am anxious for Davy’s situation to improve but at least in the meantime he has found a family that is much kinder to him, so that’s something.


message 388: by France-Andrée (last edited May 11, 2020 07:13PM) (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments It is the most autobiographical chapter, we know it now, but the readers at the time didn't. Charles Dickens kept is childhood experiences really secret for a long time, David Copperfield had already been published for years before he told his friend (biographer) John Forster about it. He was still ashamed and afraid people would judge him for it. That is sad.

It's very sad that a child with all those capacities is not educated like he should be, but to be the child and to know it, it is a self-awareness that is beyond his age. David is very mature and this maturity does show on how he deals with the Micawbers' debts: going to sell their possessions and then visiting the prison. His relationship with the Micawbers demonstrates his fierce loyalty when someone shows him love, moving next to them while they are in prison.

I couldn't stop myself from comparing Mr. Micawber to Harold Skimpole in Bleak House; I hated Skimpole, he exploited everyone around him and I always thought he knew perfectly well what he was doing and was choosing to act lightly to his obligation. I think both characters are based on John Dickens, Charles represents his love (Micawber) and his tiredness (Skimpole) concerning his father. We do know that Charles Dickens got very tired and exasperated at paying his father's debts throughout his life (and then he had to do it all over again with his sons!). I think this shows an ambivalence towards his parents.


message 389: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1530 comments This is a particularly moving chapter. Hard to see Davy put to this kind of work when he has such potential. The opening lines of the chapter were particularly striking for me because you could feel the emotion Dickens put into them. Knowing his background explains why the emotion felt so strong.

When I read Little Dorrit I was shocked at how different the prison system was than what we would consider prison today. The idea that the entire family goes to prison with the father seems bizzare now.

I admire the way Davy exhibits loyalty toward those who are kind to him and, despite his own travails, worries and tries to help others. He makes the most of the bad turn his life has taken. Cannot help thinking how Clara would feel if she knew how badly he is treated by his step-father and how he is tossed out into the world to fend for himself at so young an age.


message 390: by Katy (new)

Katy | 285 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Chapter 11:

Davy is now ten, and labouring in a bottle-washing warehouse belonging to the firm of "Murdstone and Grinby", down on the wharf of the river Thames at Blackfriars. The firm supplies wi..."


This is maybe a little off topic but I was curious, after reading about Mealy Potatoes' father, if it was normal for theaters at that time to have their own firemen. So I looked it up and I found out theater fires were quite common at that time.

Anyway, to get back to David, I am glad that, as bad as his life gets, he seems to always have friends, in this case the Micawbers. Even though they are not able to help him, at least there is someone who cares about him.


message 391: by France-Andrée (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments I forgot to say, I squealed when Micawber showed up. He’s such a loved character and David Gates in his notes tells us that the street at the top of the road [Windsor Terrace] has been renamed Micawber Street.


Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ | 21 comments Thanks, Jean and everyone, for the excellent insights!


message 393: by Robin P (new)

Robin P Grinby also makes me think of Grim!


message 394: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
There are some great observations here! Yes, well spotted Robin - another nuance making the name perfect :)

Katy - I was fascinated to learn that theatres had their own firemen! It's only a few years since the Metropolitan Police Force had been formed, in 1829 by Sir Robert Peel (we call them "Peelers" after him) so I suppose it's not surprising that firemen were independent too.


message 395: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 12, 2020 03:25AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
France-Andrée - Yes, I like that theory very much. There is never any hint that Mr Micawber is anything like as devious as Mr Skimpole (from Bleak House) of course. But the idea that Charles Dickens could express his ambivalence towards his father in this way, is very appealing!

Mr Micawber is such an affectionate portrait, and yet we well know the exasperation Dickens felt about his parents - eventually just trying to move them somewhere far enough away that they could not cause him any more trouble with their spendthrift ways (see Abby's posts in the thread "I Saw Dickens! Museums and Commemorative Events" for a picture of their cottage in Exeter).

But he did not want to hurt his parents' feelings, so this was a perfect way of conveying the duality of John Dickens - or rather his son's perception of him. As you say, Charles Dickens represents the good side in Mr Micawber, and the devious, self-serving one in Harold Skimpole.


message 396: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 12, 2020 03:29AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Sara - I too kept thinking of Little Dorrit! Charles Dickens began including sections about the Debtors' Prisons almost at the start of his writing career, in The Pickwick Papers, (view spoiler) but episodes like this one reach their culmination in the wonderful Little Dorrit. They are such strange places- unique really as we have nothing to compare them with today. Many of the prisoners there were genteel folk fallen on hard times, who had little prospect of leaving, so would bring their family to make a new life inside. The family could come and go, but the prisoner was incarcerated.

Charles Dickens here gives us just a smattering here about the society within the gaol: the committees, the social life - better for the Micawbers here than outside! - the way food could be order from outside and brought in, a much nicer room able to be rented if the cash was there, prisoners could have their own furniture brought in and so on. As you spotted Rosemarie and others, life seem really quite congenial. It would only seem less so to those outside, who would view life in a debtor's prison as a social and personal disgrace.

Good point Sara, that the emotion - and conviction - is because this was within Charles Dickens's own hard experience.


message 397: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 12, 2020 03:22AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Lori - that is so kind, thank you! And thanks everyone who affirms that the summaries are OK. I confess, I was a little horrified when I saw the length of my comments yesterday. Nobody wants to plough through a long rendering of the story, when they could read Dickens first hand, with all his wit :) But to compare chapter 11 with his own projected autobiography, it was necessary to insert those long quotations! I'm so glad you enjoyed it.

So here I'll put a heads-up about our first side read, which will be announced properly to the group in a couple of days.

The obvious companion to David Copperfield, as an autobiographical novel, is a biography about him. There a couple of recent ones which are excellent, and I had one picked out - and then coronavirus struck hard :(Some of us can get books easily - shops, library, internet ordering - but some can't.

So with this in mind, I began to look at Charles Dickens's letters, and earlier biographies about him in the public domain. Two or three are notable, such as the one by G.K. Chesterton, but the one which fits best as a parallel read is undoubtedly the one by John Forster. So John Forster's first volume of that will be our side read, for those who wish it and I'll detail more later :)

The Life of Charles Dickens Vol. I. 1812-1842 by John Forster.


message 398: by France-Andrée (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments Already have downloaded the side read, it’s nice that it’s a free read, but I have heard it is biased especially against Catherine [Hogarth) Dickens. We’ll see when we start reading.


message 399: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 12, 2020 07:51AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Chapter 12:

Mr and Mrs Micawber prepare to leave "King's Bench Prison".



The King's Bench Prison at it appeared at the time. Artist unknown c.1912

Davy expects them to be overjoyed about it, but in fact they seem distraught and unhappy, because they were "so used to their old difficulties". Mr Micawber makes merry with the friends he has made in prison, and Mrs Micawber gets maudlin with egg "flip" (an alcoholic drink mixing beer, rum, molasses, and eggs or cream) inviting Davy to join her.

Mr Micawber gives Davy 2 pieces of advice (which he admits he has never been able to follow successfully):

"'never do tomorrow what you can do today. Procrastination is the thief of time. Collar him!’" and

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

Davy too is miserable when they leave in the cart, as he has felt part of their family. He has only ever had brief notes from his step-father who expected him to "devote himself wholly to his duties" with no concern that Davy's life is drudgery. He can remember a story about Aunt Betsey being there at his birth, and decides to run away, to her.

He writes to ask Peggotty for more details, and borrows half a guinea from her, without telling her his plans. Then he carefully makes sure that the firm will not be out of pocket by him, not picking up his final pay, and leaves secretly.

Davy now knows that Aunt Betsey lives in the general area of Dover, and has money for the fare there. But he is still such a little fellow, only ten years old, and needs help to take the box containing all that he owns to the Dover coach office. He sees a "long-legged young man with a very little empty donkey-cart", and although the boy is rude to him, calling him "‘Sixpenn’orth of bad ha’pence’" offers him the job, for sixpence. ("Sixpenn'orth" is a reference to how small he is - a silver sixpence was a tiny coin, and the boy also says he is made up of a lot (12) of low value bad coins.)

However, the boy turns out to be a scoundrel. Davy needs to label his box, and while he is doing so, the long-legged boy pretends he is going to alert the police. He grabs the precious half guinea from Davy's mouth and runs off in his cart, together with all Davy's belongings.

Davy chases him through London, bumping into people, carts and objects, but it is no use. "Panting and crying, but never stopping", he sets off walking in the right direction for the coast,"taking very little more out of the world, towards the retreat of my aunt, Miss Betsey, than I had brought into it".


message 400: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 12, 2020 07:53AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
The coins mentioned: pre-decimal, but within living memory!

A guinea was 21 shillings, or one pound and one shilling. It was thought more genteel than a pound! 21/- or £1.1/-

There were 20 shillings in a pound 20/- or £1

There were 12 pence in one shilling 12d or 1/-

A sixpence was also called a "tanner".


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