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David Copperfield - Group Read 1 > May - June 2020: David Copperfield: chapters 1-14

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message 201: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
I think time will tell, Kathrin ... And part of this, as the narrator admits, is the recollections of an older David.


message 202: by Nisa (last edited May 04, 2020 12:05PM) (new)

Nisa | 69 comments Debra wrote: "Chapter 4. Oh my!!!! Mr. Murdstone and his sister, Miss Murdstone, are awful and I hate them. I am also angry with Clara even though I understand she is being abused, so I am trying not to hate her...."

I finished chapter 4 too.
Like you, Debra, I'm trying hard not to hate Clara too. With her saying things like this "This is your doing, Peggotty, you cruel thing!’ said my mother. ‘I have no doubt at all about it. How can you reconcile it to your conscience, I wonder, to prejudice my own boy against me." makes it really hard.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Clara is pretty, but such a noodle! What saves her from being unlikeable is that she loves Davy and Peggotty so much; she's affection..."
I agree, Jean. This side of her is what saved her from being thoroughly hated by me. But I don't like her much.

Actually, firstly I couldn't see the way Dickens tells the story as humorous (with the story being too sad). But after getting used to his storytelling and with your guidance, Jean, now I can see how gloomy story could be told. I enjoy with him putting some humor here and there. I loved the keyhole part, even though it was such a heartbreaking moment he made me smile.


message 203: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1530 comments I also thought of Scrooge when (sorry, I think this might be in the next chapter) (view spoiler)


message 204: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Yes, it's near the end of Chapter 5, Sara. Quite a lot is to happen yet! But I agree, the similarity is marked.


message 205: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 04, 2020 12:38PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Nisa, I agree, it can make a heartbreakingly sad part of the story more bearable, to have some humour; something to make us smile now and then. So often, it is the observation and memory of how a little child sees things, which makes us smile.


message 206: by Rosemarie (new)

Rosemarie | 306 comments I agree with everyone that the Murdstones are pure poison. I don't know what to think of Clara-she is very weak and inexperienced and therefore easily dominated. But when she says those horrible things to David and Peggotty, it breaks my heart. I get the idea that she is not capable of thinking for herself at all.


message 207: by Candi (new)

Candi (candih) | 41 comments It would have been interesting to see Aunt Betsey pit against Miss Murdstone! Who do you think would have won that battle?! Neither one of them are fans of the male gender!

Jean, I was trying to figure out the significance of the Murdstone name too. You mentioned merde, which I had thought of, which then led me to rhyme "Murd" with "turd"! Ha, sorry about that, but it does work, no?!

Regarding this policy of "firmness", I marked the following:

"Firmness, I may observe, was the grand quality on which both Mr. and Miss Murdstone took their stand. However I might have expressed my comprehension of it at that time, if I had been called upon, I nevertheless did clearly comprehend in my own way, that it was another name for tyranny; and for a certain gloomy, arrogant, devil's humour, that was in them both."

Miss Murdstone with her brass and steel and chains brought to mind Jacob Marley :)


message 208: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Very fun rhythm, Candi! 😉


message 209: by Katy (new)

Katy | 285 comments I love Dickens' characterizations. All of the people in this novel are so well fleshed out. The Murdstones are perfect examples of cruel, controlling people. I can't hate Clara, even when she says and does things that are hurtful to David, because I feel like she is brainwashed by the Murdstones. Someone like her does not have a chance against the two of them.

On a lighter note my favorite humorous part of this chapter was when Miss Murdstone "made a jail-delivery of her pocket-handkerchief".

I also liked that David found comfort in books when his life was rough because I can relate to that. Books can be a great escape.


message 210: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 06:12AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Candi - yes, I'm sure the Murdstone name is significant and yours made me laugh too :)

We've looked at the first part of his name, but also the second part is significant: stone is hard. You can hurt yourself against it, or trip up. Davy does both.

Actually quite a few characters and places have endings that are suggestive of nature. ... CopperFIELD; MurdSTONE; TrotWOOD; BlunderSTONE; YarMOUTH. Hmm.

Great quotation, merging the young Davy's impressions of the Murdstone approach, and the older David's rationalisation.

Also, your idea about the idea of a battle between Aunt Betsey and Jane Murdstone reminds me of a similar wonderful fight (yes, a fistfight between two similar characters) in A Tale of Two Cities. I wonder if you know it? It's quite near the end, so I won't spoil it by naming them :)


message 211: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 04:32AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Katy - I loved your quotation too! It made me smile each time I read it, and that's important (to me) in such a sad description.

It's interesting that you find the characters "well fleshed out" and Kathrin finds them "one-dimensional". We all bring our own perceptions and reading experience or choice, I suppose. I find many of Charles Dickens's characters to be exaggerations; even caricatures, but believable for all that. And usually they prove to have many layers.

I think David, like many Dickensian heros, will alway find solace in reading :)


message 212: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 08, 2020 05:28AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Chapter 5

(Another long one, but we have a short one tomorrow!)

In brief then ... Davy, now 8 and a half years old, has a tearful journey in the cart to Yarmouth. Peggotty bursts out from behind a bush (where she had presumably been hiding), buttons flying, to thrust money and pastries into his hands and give him a big hug.

The thoughtful driver, after eating a pastry gives Davy the message "Barkis is willin'". (which means he would be willing to marry Peggotty, now he knows she's such a good cook LOL!)



Barkis and Davy on the way to Yarmouth - Harold Copping

The cart only takes Davy as far as Yarmouth, where a meal has already been ordered and paid for at an inn. Davy is served by a waiter, who is very jolly but cheats him out of nearly all his food and some of his money. This is a really funny part, so I'll share Phiz's humorous illustration - complete with all the accurate detail in the background!



The Friendly waiter and I - Phiz

Davy is made to wait in the back room until Mr Mell, who is a master at the school, calls for him, and says they are to drive there in a stagecoach. When he learns how hungry Davy is, he says he knows an old day who can prepare some food, if Davy buys it. It becomes clear to us that this poor old lady, living in charity almshouses, is his mother.

The journey to "Salem School" lasts overnight, and Davy falls asleep in the coach. He arrives at the school to find it is a dreary place. Davy is the only pupil, as everyone else has gone home for the holidays. He has been sent to school early as a punishment, and Mr Mell has been told to tie a sign on him, for everyone to read. It says "Take care of him! He bites!" (Nowadays we would say "Be careful of him" as it is a warning.)

Davy feels degraded and unhappy, as all the tradesman who come to the school can see him. He is worried too about how the other boys will react and make fun of him. He sees where they have carved their names in an old door, and imagines what they are like. He is able to do his schoolwork though, now that Mr Murdstone is not there to frighten him. Mr Mell also has work to do: the school accounts. We can see that Mr Mell is poor, and overworked.

Davy, and we, are worried as to what will happen next.


message 213: by Pamela (last edited May 05, 2020 05:18AM) (new)

Pamela (bibliohound) I really enjoyed this chapter, Dickens does a good job of lightening the mood after Davy's sad departure. Even the pocket handkerchief incident was funny, Barkis putting it out to dry. The waiter was also comical and I really chuckled at him.

Yet at the same time we are aware that Davy has been virtually abandoned, he's bewildered and alone on a long journey to a vague destination. Dickens is so skilful at mixing these approaches of humour and pathos, where too much of one or the other wouldn't work.

Poor Mr Mell, so poor he's had his boots mended till there's nothing left. It doesn't bode well, this establishment isn't rewarding its staff. It does make us worry about Davy's future.


message 214: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 06:06AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Yes, Pamela - great observations :)

There are so many great episodes in these first few chapters - they're really crammed with them! And did you notice how Charles Dickens refers to the Peggotty family in their boathouse, just to keep them uppermost in his serial readers' minds so we don't forget them!

I love the episode of the waiter taking advantage of a little boy's gullibility - and the accompanying illustration by "Phiz", which makes David look such a vulnerable tiny little tot :)

Apparently the artist Hablot Knight Browne ("Phiz") included the map of the world to imply how much David had to learn and a faint image of the fox and stork from Aesop's Fables to put the idea of gullibility in our minds.

All this shows me how well Charles Dickens is getting into the mind of a child. This is the first novel he wrote from the first hand point of view. What I'm not quite sure of yet is whether the author's voice is also that of the narrator. Is it ever omniscient? How old is the older David meant to be? And is he he remembering truthfully, or are his views coloured by subsequent experience? How well do any of us remember our childhoods objectively?

I assume we have a reliable narrator here, (not an unreliable one!) since Charles Dickens says there is a lot of him in it. In the preface to the Charles Dickens Edition of 1867 he wrote,

"Of all my books, I like this the best. It will be easily believed that I am a fond parent to every child of my fancy, and that no one can ever love that family as dearly as I love them. But, like many fond parents, I have in my heart of hearts a favourite child. And his name is

DAVID COPPERFIELD"



message 215: by Pamela (last edited May 05, 2020 05:43AM) (new)

Pamela (bibliohound) Bionic Jean wrote: "And is he remembering truthfully, or are his views coloured by subsequent experience? How well do any of us remember our childhoods objectively?.."

That's a great question and it's hard to decide at the moment. The adult David comments occasionally, but mainly we have to trust in his account. I think it's rare for anyone to remember many conversations word for word, even though they often think they do, so there must be some allowance made there.

The way Davy focuses on certain key memories is pretty realistic though - I can clearly remember certain moments from my own childhood that obviously made a big impression, while much of the intervening years has vanished!


message 216: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 06:04AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
I mustn't say anything about the masters and pupils of "Salem House" yet, but I can post a picture of the building it was based on:



Wellington House Academy - Granby Terrace, Hampstead Road, Mornington Place, North London.

Although the exact dates are unknown it is believed that Charles Dickens attended here as a day pupil from the early part of 1825, after an argument with the owner of the Blacking factory where he was employed.

The "Wellington House Classical and Commercial Academy" in North London was just a short walk away from his family home in nearby Johnson Street (now Cranleigh Street). There was no state education at the time of course, but his father’s inheritance money meant Charles could stay there for at least two years. He was taught English, French and Latin, Writing and Mathematics.

Just as in David Copperfield, the boys kept white mice in school desks! Charles Dickens used to entertain his classmates by writing stories and plays for them.

Tomorrow I'll tell you a little about the headmaster ...

Charles Dickens stayed at the school until around Easter time of 1827, when he started work as a solicitor’s clerk. However, he was a day pupil, and not boarding, as Davy will be.


message 217: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 09:55AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Pamela - I do think the various viewpoints melt into one another.

Do you remember the savage beating of Davy, in the previous chapter (of course you do!) Think of what he wrote:

"He walked me up to my room slowly and gravely—I am certain he had a delight in that formal parade of executing justice—and when we got there, suddenly twisted my head under his arm."

Whose point of view is this? At first I thought this is the child, Davy, imagining that the adult is a sadist. Mr Murdstone doesn't seem to actually be sadistic, just in a temper because his hand has been bitten - and to have strong views about "firmness", believing that this is the correct way to treat all small boys, including himself.

Then I read it again. He says, "I am certain he had a delight ..." and not "I was certain he had a delight ..."

So this must be the older David, assessing the behaviour of Mr. Murdstone from a more mature perspective after all. But then again, the adult point of view is completely dependent on the memory of the child ...

I have a feeling we will never quite be sure, as nobody has perfect recall, and a child's point of view has various shades of meaning too. But I do love the reminiscing :)

Plus, there is an extra, unique level of interpretation, when we take account of the biographical elements of the story.

This is an amazing novel :)


message 218: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 09:56AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
The journey there, although amusing, was quite telling in how much Davy was treated like a piece of cargo, (trapped in between two large men, and uncomfortable because of the old woman's basket) instead of a human being. And yet he was considered a "little gentleman" - someone of consequence! And he also had that long wait, sitting on some scales.

Nobody is there to speak up for him.

Davy does think London in an "amazing" place, and thinks of all of the adventures his story book heroes tell happened there. But we, and the older Charles Dickens, wonder.


message 219: by Candi (new)

Candi (candih) | 41 comments "Also, your idea about the idea of a battle between Aunt Betsey and Jane Murdstone reminds me of a similar wonderful fight (yes, a fistfight between two similar characters) in A Tale of Two Cities. I wonder if you know it? It's quite near the end, so I won't spoil it by naming them."

Jean, I'll keep it in a spoiler tag in case anyone else wants to guess. I can only remember half of the pair! (view spoiler) I'm going to go look it up now!


message 220: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Peggotty is such an endearing character. My take on Peggotty’s farewell is that she didn’t trust herself to speak lest she break down in uncontrollable sobs. I loved that Davy saved one of her buttons as a keepsake.

I was glad that Davy’s mother sent him a note and the two half-crowns. I haven’t decided yet how much she has redeemed herself but it was tangible evidence of her love for Davy.

The expression the waiter used was new to me, “Now, six foot, come on!” I assumed it meant move quickly.

I’m anxious to see what happens next and I am curious about Mr. Mell.

Salem House is an interesting choice for the school’s name. I couldn’t help my mind running to Salem and the witch trials but surely there’s a Salem in England that doesn’t have that stigma.

Jean: I am really loving all of the illustrations. My copy doesn’t have any and they add so much to the story, so thanks again!


message 221: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 08:53AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Candi - yes! It is her fighting a staunch ally of the main characters. I had tears of laughter running down my face as I read it - but it was truly awful as well! Handbags at dawn LOL!


message 222: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 09:57AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Lori - I loved those moments too :) It's all in the detail.

As for Salem, actually here we have the same associations, and I do think that is what Charles Dickens intended with the allusion, naming the school "Salem House". I didn't want to say anything though, in case I unintentionally offended anyone in the group who might live there.

“Now, six foot, come on!” isn't an English expression, as such. The waiter is being sarcastic, by making fun of Davy and calling him "six foot" as if he were a tall chap, when in reality he is tiny. He's telling Davy to hurry up, yes, but it is just a jest, not intended to be cruel.

I'm glad you're enjoying the illustrations. I'm just looking at 4 or 5 artists who I know illustrated it, (either contemporary with Charles Dickens or early 20th century) and choosing the one I like best for each episode :)


message 223: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Oh, duh! Lol! Yes, Davy looks tiny sitting at the table in the picture.


message 224: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments I do apologize if I have offended anyone by my wondering thoughts about Salem. I personally think Salem would be an interesting place to visit. If I’m not mistaken tourists really seem taken with the unique history of the town.


message 225: by Debra Diggs (last edited May 05, 2020 09:42AM) (new)

Debra Diggs Chapter 5. I feel better now. I like Davy's mom a little bit better. I loved the Peggotty scene. And the driver saying he is willing. lol. I thought that meant he was willing to date Peggotty, until I read Jean's post. Marriage, my gosh, that was a short courtship! I love the way Davy's feeling come across when he is more alone than Robinson Crusoe, because people can see him being alone.

Edit: and thanks for the explanation on "now, six foot, come on". I had no idea what that meant.


message 226: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Lori - I've no idea really, but was just being careful. Maybe our friends in Salem would think we're being too cautious. When I lived up North, we often used to visit a pretty village in Derbyshire called "Eyam" otherwise known as "plague village".

When the plague arrived there from London, in 1665 in a bundle of flea-infested clothes, the entire village isolated themselves from the rest of the country. It was an incredibly brave thing to do, and the children are taught about it, and taken to see the memorial to each of the people who died, in Eyam church.

Sorry - a bit off topic!


message 227: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 10:11AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Have you noticed the different patterns of courtship and marriage we have here?

1. There's the romantic ideal, of David (the father) and Clara Copperfield,

2. The marriage to her handsome beau, which led to her becoming a battered wife, in Betsy Trotwood,

3. The second marriage between Clara and Mr Murdstone, which socially looks like an excellent match for both, providing a stable home for Davy, but to us just looks like a way of Mr Murdstone satisfying his lust (possibly for both sex and power),

4. Miss Murdstone who has no beaux, so takes it out on everyone around,

5. Peggotty, who has strong maternal instincts but so far no suitors. Barkiss would be a good match for her, but will she want to leave the other "child" in her charge, Clara? And

6. The odd assorted family of Dan Peggotty. He's told us he is a bachelor, but looks after four waifs and strays.

All so different!


message 228: by Debra Diggs (new)

Debra Diggs Oh my gosh, Jean, I did not notice the different patterns of courtship and marriage. No courtship might be just the right kind of marriage.

I did notice the Dan Peggotty assorted family. And wondered if it will come into play later. It reminds me of the first time seeing the Star Wars Cantina bar scene with all the kinds of creatures in it. Not that they were family, but that they were all different, hanging out in the same place.


message 229: by Candi (new)

Candi (candih) | 41 comments I too was pleased to see Peggotty pop out of the bushes - and losing her buttons in the process! I see that Clara is trying to let Davy know she loves him, but I'm sure this would not go over well with the Murdstones if they caught wind of it.

Yes, the waiter was great comic relief! Although he then proceeds to make haphazard warnings about a school 'near London' where a boy who just happens to be Davy's age received a beating that broke his ribs!

This sign on Davy's back will make him a target for bullies and just general teasing. I can't imagine wearing such a thing. It was bad enough he was sent to school ahead of time as punishment, and now this humiliation.


message 230: by Rosemarie (new)

Rosemarie | 306 comments You can see David's innocence in his dealings with the waiter, who not only eats most of his dinner, makes fun of him and then gets a shilling tip.
Poor little abandoned David.

One detail that struck is the hungry mice in the cage in the schoolroom. That is a foreboding sign about possibly future negligence and generally low standards.


message 231: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 01:14PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Debra - great unusual parallel with Star Wars. Who would have thought it?

Candi - I'm wondering if some of those mice in Charles Dickens own school also met the same fate. How awful - and the birds too that Rosemarie mentioned. Cages and trapped birds are a constant motif in Charles Dickens's novels, and always so affecting.

That is one doom-laden moment and another is the one Debra picked up on, about the waiter having heard of the beating of boys in a school near London. On the other hand, there will have been several schools of this type near London (Blackheath is now actually in South London, spread between Greenwich and Lewisham. But London sprawls more now that it did then!)

I love the details you latch on to :)


message 232: by Debra Diggs (last edited May 05, 2020 01:12PM) (new)

Debra Diggs Oops, Candi mentioned the beating of boys in a school near London : )

I hated the bird in the small cage. Boy, that sure adds gloom to the story. Somehow, I did not get much out of the white mouse part. But I wondered why the mice were white instead regular grey.


message 233: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Oh dear - sorry both :( Too much scrolling!


message 234: by Michaela (new)

Michaela I started the audiobook performed by Richard Armitage yesterday, but only finished three chapters, so I guess I´ll have to "read" three more to keep up with you! ;)

The text is quite complicated, though I´m used to Victorian literature, but I have to concentrate to keep up with the story. Thanks Jean for adding the contents of the chapters!


message 235: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1530 comments I cannot help thinking that fear is the uppermost emotion driving Clara's behavior. She says what she feels she must say in front of the Murdstones, but behind their backs she is always trying to just slip in a bit of love to David so he will understand that she does love him. How acutely she must feel this separation herself.

And Murdstone is such an abominable person that getting rid of Davy is not enough, he has to require that he be humiliated in his new place, which insures he will not be happy or get off to a good start. I cannot help thinking that any indication that David (or Clara for that matter) are happy would be anathema to him.


message 236: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2020 02:58PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Michaela - I have heard this said before, by German and Italian friends, who also are used to Victorian literature. They find that Anthony Trollope and Wilkie Collins, for instance, write quite straightforwardly, but there is something about the way Charles Dickens constructs his sentences which makes him more difficult, particularly if English is not your first language. Perhaps you find Elizabeth Gaskell more straightforward as well?

Nisa is reading this with us too, and I think she is supplementing her audio read with the written text. Perhaps this would help?

I'm glad my short summaries of each chapter help. It is difficult (for me anyway!) to keep them concise, but the idea is to remind ourselves what each chapter contains, so that we can discuss it freely without fear of spoilers. Anyone at a different point can obviously comment too, and this should help us all to remember where to relate it to. If today is the 5th, then we are mostly talking about chapter 5 :)

Hopefully the illustrations also help us to navigate ourselves, and make it a bit more interesting. A bald summary of the chapter is alway going to seem very dreary, compared with Charles Dickens's prose ;)


message 237: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Sara: What you just said makes perfect sense. I don’t think that Clara would have dared show Davy any tenderness upon his departure with the Murdstones present. I’ve been thinking about Clara’s situation today and I do agree that she will feel Davy’s absence very keenly. I am sorry for her because there’s no way she saw this coming.

When Peggotty climbed into that cart I was very relieved. I think it would have been far worse (more traumatic) for him to leave without a fond farewell.


message 238: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1530 comments Nisa and Michaela - I am in awe of you both. I would love to be able to read ANYTHING in another language.


message 239: by Katy (new)

Katy | 285 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Katy - I loved your quotation too! It made me smile each time I read it, and that's important (to me) in such a sad description.

It's interesting that you find the characters "well fleshed out" a..."


I feel like when Dickens is describing a person, especially their physical characteristics, the characters are more like caricatures. But overall the characters seem very real to me. I could see this story happening in real life.


message 240: by Katy (new)

Katy | 285 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Michaela - I have heard this said before, by German and Italian friends, who also are used to Victorian literature. They find that Anthony Trollope and Wilkie Collins, ..."

For me, because Dickens injects so much humor in his writing it sometimes makes him hard to understand. Coming from a different era and a different country I don't always see the joke, which means I am sometimes trying to make literal sense of something that was not meant to be taken literally. However, I would not want to take the humor out of his writing. It is part of what makes reading Dickens so enjoyable.


message 241: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2173 comments I'm a bit late today and just read Chapter 5 now. The day has flown by.

Peggotty remains one of the best characters. She's heart warming. I loved the scene where she meets Davy's carriage. She's a gem.

Clara, too, came across as a mother who loves her son and, sadly, is afraid in her own home. However, she hasn't turned cold or hard, so perhaps there's hope. But with the Murdstones in the house it's doubtful.

The carriage driver was priceless! The waiter was fun but taking advantage of a little boy is not cool.

I get a good feeling about Mr. Mell. He's quiet but he seems kind. He did make sure that Davy got a breakfast into him.

It's a shame the school listened to Mr. Murdstone's instructions with the sign on Davy's back. That is humiliating and not necessary. Mr. Murdstone would never have known had it not happened.

All in all, I think that Davy showed great courage, fortitude and resilience in this chapter. He faced each challenge in a straightforward manner and faced it. He didn't shirk away. He behavior shows a lot of maturity and backbone.

Jean, thanks for showing the picture of the school. I didn't get the impression that it was that large.

I do hope that Davy makes some good friends. I think that perhaps Mr. Mell might be one of them. I hope this turns to be true. He could use a solid, adult friend in his life.


message 242: by Kathrin (new)

Kathrin I am a fan of your summaries, Jean. They help me focus on what I want to comment on as there is always some time gap between reading the chapter and coming here to read all the comments.

The parting scene in chapter 5 got to me. Pegotty is such a sweet person and I can easily understand why someone would court her. After her short letter - I still have hope for his mother.

And I am okay with waiting for more information to come on the Murdstones to withdraw my opinion on them being one-dimensional. Thus far, I am still looking for their reason to be this way.

David's way to school showed me how vulnerable children are when adults around them treat them badly. Doesn't matter if they cheat them out off money or if they handle them like a piece of luggage.

I was always a big fan of boarding house stories but Salem surely looks gloomy. On top of being deserted, lots of trapped animals paint a lovely picture. Going there on his own and staying isolated is punishment enough - add the sign he has to wear to make it even crueler. Seems like Murdstone was determined to get rid of him.


message 243: by Nisa (new)

Nisa | 69 comments Thank you, Jean. I think to read your comments about the chapter I read, helps me more than listening to the audio. When I think what I understand from reading and after that what you point out, make such a difference that I would be missing so much if it wasn't for that. I'm really lucky to read David Copperfield with you and everyone. I wouldn't be enjoying and learning so much.
In chapter 5 it was really hard to see that even though Mr. Murdstone sends David away, he couldn't just let him be and make sure he is humiliated and punished.

I guess Clara was clever than I thought. Her trying to show affection without being seen by Murdstone's makes me a little less bitter the way she acted before. Now seems like the way she acted was just pretended to be like what Murdstones wanted. (but not less cruel because it hurt him same anyway, at least I don't expect much from her and she is trying to do what she can) But to have Peggotty seeing him off and her not trusting herself to talk was heartwarming. She is such a blessing for David and Clara.

David's voyage showed to me how clueless he was. Well, I think this would be the case for an 8 years old boy who left home for the first time. It was funny he didn't want to blame the waiter just because he was nice to him. I guess for him it was hard to believe for someone nice to be bad :)).
Even after all the bad omens still hope he will have some friends who will help him and be there for him.


message 244: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Gosh so much here overnight (for me!) And a lot to think about. We all broadly the same towards the different characters I think, which is a credit to how clearly Charles Dickens has written them. We just wonder how they got that way! And as I said before, I love the different details we pick out :)

Thanks Lori, Kathrin, Nisa and everyone else for saying about the summaries :) Yes, they seem to be serving as a reminder - good! I'll keep doing them as long as they are useful, (and as long as as I can).

Sara - yes Clara is a timid mouse. You're so right about feay lying at the root of all her behaviour. That bit about "my house ... our house ... your house"; such an attitude change all in all in one sentence sounded a death kneel to any kind of assertiveness she may have managed to squeak out.

But yes Nisa you're right she's clever! I hadn't really thought of her concealing the money to give to Davy that way as something needing subterfuge, but of course it did. I wonder who came up with the plan, her or Peggotty. There must have been a lot of secret whispering in corners at "Blunderstone Rookery" :(

Oh yes! Davy trusts the waiter because he is nice to him. Isn't this a perfect way of showing how innocent he is? And yet even as adults, we feel the same I think. It's hard to recognise or believe sometimes, if someone is polite or friendly to your face, that they may have cheat or have ulterior motives! This part is so amusing - and so poignant.

Petra We're not really told how much access Davy has to the whole of "Salem House" school, but I would not be surprised if part of it is locked against him and Mr Mell. And it's only really based on his memories of "Wellington Academy" - as much the inhabitants as the building, as I'll go into later. He's transposed it from North London to South East of it too!

Katy - Like Sara I'm in awe of anyone who can read a classic work in another language! But please say if there is a particular part you wonder about. Much of this humour is idiomatic, so it's easy enough to explain for a native speaker, but not at all obvious to others. And occasionally different English speakers (eg. American English) may not completely pick up on a nuance, just as I don't with American novels. And of course, none of us are actually Victorian ;)

Someone asked about white mice. White mice are called "fancy" mice here, and are kept as pets. They are albino, with pink eyes. There are other pets who can be albino too, such as rats, rabbits and guinea pigs, but for some reason white mice seem to be the most popular of their breed.


message 245: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Sep 29, 2020 11:36AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Chapter 6:

A short chapter, to introduce us to Mr Creakle, the headmaster of Salem House. He is an ugly man who speaks in a threatening whisper. Another man with a wooden leg repeats what he says, to make sure it is heard. Mr Creakle describes himself as "a tartar". Here he is pinching Davy's ear so much that it hurts:



Mr Creakle has a wife and daughter, who quietly watch, but do not say anything. All the boys have returned to school, and seem rather gloomy, so do not tease Davy about the sign round his neck quite as much as he had feared. We also meet James Steerforth, a handsome older boy who does not seem afraid of anything - least of all Mr Creakle - and we meet Tommy Traddles, who is the same age as Davy.

We begin to see Steerforth with a clearer eye than Davy. Under the guise of friendship, Steerforth offers to look after Davy's precious 7 shillings. He then proceeds to suggest how it might be spent on party food and drink for everyone. This may well make Davy popular, but it is done deceitfully, with the pretence that it is Davy's idea.

Davy is a little doubtful about the way his mother's money was spent, but is mainly impressed and grateful to have such an adult-seeming protector.


message 246: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 06, 2020 02:25AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
So what so we make of Mr Creakle with his whispery threatening non-voice? How does he "creak"? Is it in his bones? Does he creep about and make everyone feel his painful "creaking" joints? Apparently he was originally called "Crinkle" in an early draft, but "Creakle" is so much better! It also sounds a bit like "treacle" as if with his soft voice he's pretending to be all sweet, but is actually very menacing.

And sure enough he was based on a real person. Yesterday I posted about Charles Dickens attending an appalling school as a child. "Wellington House Classical and Commercial Academy" was run by a sadistic man called William Jones, who was the original for ... you've got it, "Mr Creakle"! Charles Dickens once said that Jones was:

"by far the most ignorant man I have ever had the pleasure to know, who was one of the worst tempered men perhaps that ever lived, whose business it was to make as much out of us and put as little into us as possible".

We've been united in despising Mr Murdstone, and I hate to defend him in any way! But I believe that he was not exactly sadistic, just misguided by his principles, and a product of the time he was living in. He may also, as I wondered earlier, be damaged by his past (and finding hard to maintain a control on his own temper).

But Mr Creakle, I feel, is something else; something evil, and so perhaps even more threatening ...


message 247: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 06, 2020 02:19AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
What about the others?

Tommy Traddles has just come into the story, and will prove to be very important. He was also based on a real person, Sir Thomas Noon Talfourd a barrister, judge, M.P. and playwright, who became a close friend of Charles Dickens when side by side they fought against all the plagiarism of their works. Copyright was in its very early stages then, and the issue of pirate copies of his works was one of Dickens's bugbears. "Tommy Traddles" and the judge had a lot in common with their "personal diligence, gentle disposition, and journalistic output".

Charles Dickens described his "fervent admiration" of Talfourd, and dedicated the first book edition of The Pickwick Papers to him, telling his friend and mentor John Forster that it was,

"a memorial of the most gratifying friendship I have ever contracted."


message 248: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
And James Steerforth? Well the jury is still out about our handsome golden boy. But look how the chapter ends:

"He was a person of great power in my eyes; that was, of course, the reason of my mind running on him."

But also, ominously:

"No veiled future dimly glanced upon him in the moonbeams. There was no shadowy picture of his footsteps, in the garden that I dreamed of walking in all night."

This is surely an intriguing hint!


message 249: by Pamela (last edited May 06, 2020 03:10AM) (new)

Pamela (bibliohound) Mr Creakle is terrifying, it proves you don't need to shout to be frightening. Clever for Dickens to reveal his story through the boys, about the dispute with his son and misery of his wife and daughter. A contrast with the story of Mr Scott's wig!

I was not impressed with Steerforth, he enjoys lording it over the boys and seems boastful and vain. These are not promising qualities, and his manipulation of Davy to get the feast was revealing. Tommy Traddles is much more likeable, I hope to read more about him.


message 250: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8394 comments Mod
Spot-on Pamela :) I'd forgotten about the wig until today! One of those details which make a reread feel so "new". Ginger hair did not used to be so sought after - it was thought to go with a fiery temperament and bad character.


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