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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK FOUR AND WEEK FIVE - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: LANDSLIDE - December 22nd - January 4th - Chapter Four - No Spoilers, Please
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Thanks Christopher - I have been told that Jonathan will pop in every week or so. Good question to pose
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Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
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For Example the quote on pg 9..."
Mark, you also might pose a question to Jonathan about LBJ's attitudes about work, women, marriage and whether LBJ was just a bit uncouth or just unbelievably rigid in his beliefs.
When folks shows rigidity - it could make it difficult for that person or persons to change their mind about a decision even when they suspect it is a wrong one. Vietnam comes to mind. If he was just uncouth or rough around the edges - then maybe he was just rude or rough on people but still able to see all sides of an issue even if the ideas and the opinions were not his own. There could be a real distinction here and I wonder what the author's take on this side of LBJ's personality and style happens to be.
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For Example the ..."
Jill I think LBJ was misunderstood and his own worse critic and I think he was always fighting an inferiority complex.
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Resouces - including time..."
You make some good points - was Hubert's wife working or was she at home with the kids. Even though being a father is as important as being a mother and your kids need both - Hubert's eye had to be on his work primarily and I have never found anyone who could really juggle both full time. Most women seem to bear the brunt even if they work full time and have senior executive positions of looking after the home and hearth more than their husbands seem to do even if they contribute their time which most men do nowadays. I can understand Huber's dilemma - and though I think LBJ was extremely harsh on everyone around him - there was some truth to what he said.
Jill wrote: "Mark wrote: "This was an interesting chapter. My initial reaction was overall disgust for how LBJ treated his wife and his expectations for how others should balance work/life. For Example the ..."
Just a comment that this was a time when child raising was seen more delegated to Mothers. Maybe LBJ was just so secure that he felt he could live this style.
I think that LBJ had some political friends who were just that - but like most of us at work mostly acquaintances and colleagues.
They would not necessarily turn on him but rather turn towards their own goals rather than his either out of viewed responsibility or selfishness.
If I were to feel pity for LBJ t would have been during his years as VP - IF
One of the things that strikes me about the jury here sitting in on LBJ and Reagan is whether folks have been given the right jury instructions.It seems that some of the members of this fine group have been judging the presidents as if they were Ricky Ricardo.
In defense of men, or women, holding high office, a peccadilloes is not even a misdemeanor, at least according to the jury instructions I have.
It's true they are people, but there are mitigating circumstances that ought to allow latitude for some misdemeanors.
You have a point, Martin. It's easy to be judgmental when we don't have those huge responsibilities or stress.We all say some incredibly dumb things at times. We just don't have people tracking every single thing we said or did to write books. Nasty behavior tends to get reported more than positive actions.
Lyndon Johnson was a very complex human being, with lots of faults but also great talents. This is an interesting article from the University of Texas alumni association, titled "Cruel to Be Kind, LBJ Behind the Scenes:"
http://alcalde.texasexes.org/2012/02/...
The article contains excerpts from Indomitable Will: LBJ in the Presidency by Mark Updegrove, the director of the Johnson library and museum.
It contains many quotes from the people who worked for Johnson. He was a Type A workaholic who drove himself night and day. He expected the same hours from his staff, and he could be crude and rude. However, his staff also felt exhilarated to be working on his very important legislative program. Several said that he treated them like family, and at times he could be very generous.
by Mark Updegrove (no picture)
Martin wrote: "One of the things that strikes me about the jury here sitting in on LBJ and Reagan is whether folks have been given the right jury instructions.It seems that some of the members of this fine grou..."
Well Mr. Martin - Ricky was not born in the US so he could never be pres but..............
Think of having Lucy in the White House.........
Now you're talking, Vince.
Kressel wrote: "I was quite favorably impressed by Lady Bird in this chapter. I didn't know much about her. She probably felt as outshone by Jackie as LBJ did by his predecessor. The difference was: she probably d..."I found the discussion on Lady Bird very interesting as well. Opened up a whole new persona to throw into the LBJ and Kennedy discussion.
More insight into LBJ the man and Lady Bird. Although LBJ comes off as a crumb, his and Lady Bird's actions were the norm back then and still happen today. The purchasing of a neighboring property while holding up the helicopter is quite telling. Hold up others while gratifying his own ego.
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Interesting comments Vince - and yes the VP days must have been very difficult.
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We all say some incredibly dumb things at times. We just don't have people tracking e..."
Thank you Ann for those adds - could you also add them to the glossary thread.
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Yes Jack she had a lot of strength and I think some "soft power" behind the scenes.
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Brian you caught an interesting sidebar - which we overlooked.
Mark wrote: "This was an interesting chapter. My initial reaction was overall disgust for how LBJ treated his wife and his expectations for how others should balance work/life. For Example the quote on pg 9..."
Personally, I really enjoyed that LBJ had to choose between work and family because customarily that choice is a female one.
I enjoyed this week's reading and don't really think anything disclosed was a surprise to me. I am not surprised by LBJ's affairs. Hunter touched on the theme of power in the affairs of presidents. It seems to me that most people (men and women) who have/initiate affairs are driven by power. JFK, LBJ, Clinton are all people that I expect fall in this category. I don't think it really affects their ability to lead the country but it is a distraction and in this day and age of technology and exploitation by mass media, that becomes the "people's" distraction. Was anything really accomplished by dragging Clinton through the impeachment process besides marking him with a virtual scarlet A? Like Bentley, I was certainly tired of the whole Lewinsky affair. I think our politicians should be moral and upstanding. These are people that our youth should be able to look up to, but these people are human and are not above reproach. You would think they could hold off on the womanizing for 4-8 years.I did like reading about Lady Bird and I was not surprised about how she liked to decorate and garden. She is well known for the beatification work she did in Austin later in life. I have to say, while reading this chapter, I kept comparing her to (don't flame me for this analogy) Miss Ellie from Dallas and LBJ to the gruff womanizing Jock Ewing. That's a bad and inacurate stereotype of Texans, but in this case, it seems to work.
On a side bar mention pertaining to the discussion on Carter and his moralistic life. I just read his book on women's rights. It is an enlightening read and I have a new respect for him. He may not have been the best president, but I think it allowed him to get to where he is now. I think the Carter Center is doing great work and I think that he did a lot in office that has been overlooked. i.e. supporting women in politics, foreign relations, etc.
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Jimmy Carter
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For Example the ..."
Interesting Sera. Thank you.
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Thank you Teri for the carter info, I find that fascinating. As for the press tour, etc I think LBJ was just saying "hey look, I'm president now" I wonder if he continues to be as press friendly throughout the rest of his presidency. I too was not particularly fond of the LBJ portrayed in this chapter. Hopefully later in the book his political accomplishments will outweigh his blemishes.
I think that part of the problem is that people expect Presidents to be super human when they are just ordinary people with their human foibles. At the same time, is it wrong for us to have such high expectations of this leader? Shouldn't he or she bring something extraordinary to the role? Or are we expecting too much?
Sera wrote: "I think that part of the problem is that people expect Presidents to be super human when they are just ordinary people with their human foibles. At the same time, is it wrong for us to have such ..."When I was working on my poli sci undergrad, I took a class on the Presidency. You bring up a valid point that is discussed a lot when evaluating presidents and presidential candidates, called the "presidential paradox". Basically, we want an exceptionally smart President, smarter and a much better leader than ourselves, but at the same time we want the guy we would love to have a beer with. Very rarely do we find a President that embodies both of those characteristics. For example, President W. Bush definitely had the "grab-a-beer-with" vibe to him. Obama comes across as more of an intellectual type. It's not to say W. wasn't intelligent or Obama isn't fun.
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Not sure Sera but I would think that people would want to have loftier ideals and expectations for their leader.
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Thank you Megan - an interesting paradox.
Megan wrote: "Sera wrote: "I think that part of the problem is that people expect Presidents to be super human when they are just ordinary people with their human foibles. At the same time, is it wrong for us ..."Thanks, Megan. I agree that many Americans have created a standard that makes it nearly impossible for anyone to meet.
After reading about Lady Bird in chapter for one might be inclined to see her as a weak woman. To me she had strength. She wanted to be a reporter and travel. However, she was extremely shy and lacked self-confidence. She fought against her weaknesses and in her own way gained strength through organization. I had never heard the story about her packing and arranging her clothes while traveling. (Page 101)She was also good with people on a one-to-one. She had long conversation with Senators Rayburn and Russell. Also, she showed some of the most important people in the world at that time around the LBJ ranch and the White House. For a shy person, she did her best to support her husband. I think that took a lot of internals strength.
(Page 119)
The author talks about Lyndon holding up his departure from the ranch so he could buy a piece of land near his ranch. Lyndon hated the fact that his father had gone broke and he and his family were made fun of because they were poor. He fought for years to get the land and the ranch back. I think that is way he loved driving people around the ranch so much. He had restored the family name.
I often think that an introvert and extrovert make a good team, whether in business or in marriage.
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Very true Kressel.
Megan wrote: "Sera wrote: "I think that part of the problem is that people expect Presidents to be super human when they are just ordinary people with their human foibles. At the same time, is it wrong for us ..."But I guess it is not to say that Bush was intelligent or that Obama is fun...................
Bentley wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Exactly Kressel, Darman talks about how Lady Bird wanted to be that insider and LBJ gave her that life she wanted. No doubt it was not perfect.I visited the LBJ ranch and it was gr..."
I am not sure anybody ever relaxed around LBJ!!!
After the description of Christmas dinner being interrupted by reporters, my thought was that Lady Bird should have taken a large stick to LBJ's head and shoulders...I can understand Lady Bird's marriage "arrangement" in that being married to a man like LBJ certainly gave her a more exciting life than if she had been a typical housewife of the era. She surely weighed the good and bad sides of their marriage and decided it was worth it...but I am also reminded of how many battered women stay with their husbands and give excuses and blame themselves for the abuse.
LBJ comes across as a big jerk in this chapter. And it tires me just reading about his life! Tons of energy there. LBJ wanted to appear "larger than life" which makes me wonder what he feared. He didn't seem to be too afraid of being a big failure...
Ann wrote: "As society became more permissive in what was acceptable, it became more restrictive in its perception of what was acceptable for the president's behavior. So true, Jill. Different times for sur..."
I wouldn't say that Hilary tolerated it meekly. Yes, there were the public interviews expressing support, but I'm sure that behind closed doors, there was quite the dressing down. I hate to be cynical, but as we've gotten to know Hilary a bit better, it's likely that even then she was taking the long view for both his political career and her own.
Kressel wrote: "Though I don't remember the precise quote, Harry Truman said that if a man can't be trusted to be faithful to his own wife, he can't be trusted with anything.
b..."I remember that quote too, and I have to say that I generally agree. Trust is trust, no matter the circumstances. It especially irked me when those of a certain party were all about "family values" in public only to be caught cheating on a spouse later.
Michael wrote: "I was struck by the conscious decision that was made by Kennedy and his advisers to place poverty on the back burner because it did not equal votes. I also noticed that LBJ had concerns in his ele..."That struck me too, Michael. And the thought that occurred to me was "the more things change, the more they stay the same." Except in few cases, I'm not sure that principles and a politician's conscience matter anymore. To paraphrase a movie line, it's "Show me the votes!"
I enjoyed both Chapters. I cannot say that I had any big revelations but do agree that LBJ, like the rest of us, had some serious insecurities that in many respects may seem amplified by his bigger than life personality. His father's fall from power and wealth certainly was a dark cloud. I can only imagine the terror felt by Reagan when faced with the prospect of being stuck as a washed-up B-movie actor .I have been struck reading the reviews how few comments there were on Chapter 5. So, am curious how participants in our discussion group feel about Reagan's political career? (Pg 145). It is difficult for his liberal critics to accept that a B-movie actor, a man who costarred with a chimp, could rise to lead a coalition that would in time roll back a generation's worth of liberal progress. Was this career an accident or very calculated?
For me, Reagan's street savvy came through in Chapter 5. It seems to me that the presidency gave him the opportunity to truly be a middle age superstar. So far, he strikes me as very ambitious but not very deep.
Tomi wrote: "After the description of Christmas dinner being interrupted by reporters, my thought was that Lady Bird should have taken a large stick to LBJ's head and shoulders...I can understand Lady Bird's m..."
I can't get the image of Lady Bird whacking LBJ over the head and shoulders with a big stick (LOL). He definitely deserved it. Never imagined he was such a bully to his wife.
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I can understand Lady Bird's m..."
Some excellent observations Tomi.
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Astute comments Mary - I agree - probably holiday week had a bit to do with the number of comments - but you raised some great points.
Mary wrote: "I enjoyed both Chapters. I cannot say that I had any big revelations but do agree that LBJ, like the rest of us, had some serious insecurities that in many respects may seem amplified by his bigge..."I have to agree, Mary, that although ambitious, Reagan wasn't very deep. But ambition often trumps intellectual levels.
Many people denigrated him for being in film (even though he did star with a chimp once!!!) . Presidents have had varied occupations and being in film is just another job; in fact, it definitely was an asset as far as his ability to be comfortable before the camera or speaking to large groups.
With his high energy and need to know and be involved in everything, LBJ's work ethic was no doubt reassuring for the nation as well as for himself (page 92). It did appear that the nation was continuing to be directed and guided following the traumatic assassination, even if the direction and results were as yet unclear...
It's amazing to see the extent to which Mrs. LBJ took and tolerated his ranting, nastiness, and abuse (page 102+). How much was it her strong loyalty and support for him...how much was due to her own drive to make a name for herself on the public stage? I don't know...but he was lucky that she tolerated so much of him...
It is a fascinating footnote to LBJ's story to observe how his father's struggles and losses (page 112) contributed to his determination not to fail at any cost...and his fear of doing so...
"Certainty was always there." (Page 116) So much of politics, it would seem to me, is based on hunches, gambles, tendencies, and unknowns... Yet LBJ saw things in black and white certainties. Did that make him too inflexible to ride above the vagaries of politics and a temperamental society? Was he doomed to stumble as a politician sooner or later due to this mindset?
"...solved, by him. He was sure." (Page 119) To what extent was LBJ's idealism naive and unrealistic? In this perhaps a characteristic inherent in most politicians in order to be willing and able to take on seemingly unsolvable situations? LBJ almost seemed a man who was standing outside of himself, gazing at the President (himself) who would make happen the impossible.
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I just got my hand on this book. I hope I'm no too late in getting started.
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Thank you Bentley! Have yourself a great evening.
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Harry S. Truman (other topics)A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence, and Power (other topics)
Indomitable Will: LBJ in the Presidency (other topics)
Harry S. Truman (other topics)
All the Truth Is Out: The Week Politics Went Tabloid (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jimmy Carter (other topics)Mark K. Updegrove (other topics)
Robert A. Caro (other topics)
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Matt Bai (other topics)
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For Example the quote on pg 9..."
I know some of his posturings and attitudes would certainly put folks off. I agree and I would want to see folks work harder too - but some also use their family as an excuse for not doing so - a double edged sword.