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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK FOUR AND WEEK FIVE - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: LANDSLIDE - December 22nd - January 4th - Chapter Four - No Spoilers, Please
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
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The fourth week’s reading assignment is:
Weeks Four and Five-December 22-January 4
Chapter Four-Home-pages 89 to 119
Chapter Overview and Summary
Chapter 4: Home
Johnson emphasizes the message of continuing Kennedy’s legacy. He projects an aura of hard work and is determined to push the Civil Rights Act through Congress. Daily life continues for the Johnsons, who have always had a somewhat turbulent marriage. Johnson formulates ideas for his “Great Society” vision.
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Remember any discussion can take place on any subject matter discussed in the book from the Prologue through these weeks' assignment through the end of Chapter Four.
If however you want to branch off and discuss more off-topic subjects feel free to do so on any of the spoiler threads in the folder including the Book as a Whole thread. Happy Reading and Happy Holidays.
There is plenty to talk about so let us begin.
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However we begin Chapter Four with not a story of a Christmas holiday at the Kennedys but one at the Johnsons in Texas. It is the Christmas of 1963 and the Johnsons are at home. And so the chapter begins.
I was quite favorably impressed by Lady Bird in this chapter. I didn't know much about her. She probably felt as outshone by Jackie as LBJ did by his predecessor. The difference was: she probably didn't care.
Kressel wrote: "I was quite favorably impressed by Lady Bird in this chapter. I didn't know much about her. She probably felt as outshone by Jackie as LBJ did by his predecessor. The difference was: she probably d..."Interesting note, Kressel. This has me rethinking and re-reading.
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I too was very favorably impressed with Lady Bird.
Reading about Lady Bird and what she had to deal with in her relationship with LBJ really hit home what a different time it was then. Imagine what a scandal it would be today if our standing President was seen publicly being intimate with another woman. Bill Clinton's indiscretions were so much more discreet than that and he nearly was ousted from office.
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We have certainly started paying a lot more attention to the personal and sexual lives of our presidents (and politicians in general) than we used to. To our detriment, I think.
As a society, we would be better off spending our time on the policies and views of our politicians. The list of presidents who cheated on their wives is long and reveals very little about either their abilities or their policies.
Exactly. Voting essentially is a hiring decision. Security concerns not excepted, what reason is there for concern over where and how the leader of the free world seeks a little sexual solace and satisfaction.
The media is obsessed as never before with everything in the personal life of the President. There was more restraint in the 1960s regarding what he did behind closed doors. As society became more permissive in what was acceptable, it became more restrictive in its perception of what was acceptable for the president's behavior. The 24 hour cable news channels need something to titillate the public!!
I feel a parody coming on: an ex prez becomes a porn star after leaving office.O h , o h. , in ter. Net. Conekshun b rak. Ing. Up.
Bentley wrote: "I think she did care Kressel in that she cared deeply about her husband - LBJ and his hurt feelings but I actually think she was made of stronger stuff than even her husband and was extremely intel..."I agree that she cared about HIS feelings, but for herself, I don't think wanted to be the "star" that Jackie Kennedy was. She studied journalism and got to be the ultimate Washington insider.
Exactly Kressel, Darman talks about how Lady Bird wanted to be that insider and LBJ gave her that life she wanted. No doubt it was not perfect.I visited the LBJ ranch and it was great. One of the biggest memories was that a phone was installed in the dining room table (right at LBJ's knee), so he can take calls as people were eating. It fits with Darman's great quote:
"It seemed he was always working, always moving." (p. 91)
As society became more permissive in what was acceptable, it became more restrictive in its perception of what was acceptable for the president's behavior. So true, Jill. Different times for sure. I am tempted to say that a modern president's wife wouldn't tolerate that kind of sexual behavior, but then I remember Hillary Clinton.
I agree that the sexual behavior of political leaders should be private unless it shows real recklessness and/or presents security problems. I think JFK's numerous dalliances with prostitutes and a woman with mafia connections really crossed the line.
As for LBJ, he could be a real jerk (other, less polite words first came to mind). At the minimum he could at least have been discrete about his affairs, which humiliated Lady Bird. Darmon does point out that marriage to LBJ did give his wife the opportunity to participate in an exciting and fulfilling life in so many ways. She was right at the center of power. Life would have been incredibly boring in comparison if she had married a nice Texas guy who stayed home. There weren't many opportunities for women in those days and a lot of them lived through their husbands.
So true, Ann. We see it with Helen Taft, who dreamed to be president herself, but could not do it. So, she got a husband with a bright future and helped steer him to the White House.Lady Bird certainly endured a lot living with LBJ, no doubt.
We have touched upon an interesting facet of politics: the marriages and the affairs of Presidents. I am enjoying the comments thus far.
"I think JFK's numerous dalliances with prostitutes and a woman with mafia connections really crossed the line."Which line is that, Ann?
Such dalliances could raise security concerns, but I'm not aware of any breaches. Were there any?
Perhaps our puritanical roots make us a little overly sensitive on anything involving sex. I wonder whether any security, or other national, secrets have ever been brought up in pillow talk?
Anecdote: Marines in the US Embassy in Moscow were discovered to have been tupping a pretty Russian spy, including in sensitive areas...of the embassy. (Get your mind out of the gutter.)
The story was all over the NYTimes and other media. Greatest breach of security in the country's history, blah, blah, blah. And then the story disappeared.
Turns out our guys just had some great sex with a pretty girl who was kept much too busy to do much spying.
Sometimes, sex is just sex.
Though I don't remember the precise quote, Harry Truman said that if a man can't be trusted to be faithful to his own wife, he can't be trusted with anything.
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Margaret Truman
Ann wrote: "As for LBJ, he could be a real jerk (other, less polite words first came to mind). "He certainly could and not just with his wife. But he was a very effective jerk.
It may be that jerkiness is positively correlated with effectiveness in politicians.
I remember hearing about a bumper sticker that read, "Mayor Giuliani is a big a**hole. (And that's just what New York needs.)"
Aw shucks, Martin. Let me enjoy getting on my moral high horse. :-)Regarding crossing the line:
I was thinking of the Judith Exner affair. Exner claimed to have had affairs with both Kennedy and Mafia leader Sam Giancana at the same time. That has been disputed. See her New York Times obituary: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/27/us/...
Secret Service men have recounted guarding the door while Kennedy cavorted with prostitutes.
Then there is Kennedy's affair with East German Ellen Rometsch, a suspected spy, in 1963. See the following review of Seymour Hersh's The Dark Side of Camelot. Although very critical of Hersh's book in general, The New York Times does accept that Hersh shows this affair took place. http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/11/30...
At the minimum Kennedy risked blackmail, if not by the Mafia, East Germans, then by J Edgar Hoover. :-)
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Seymour M. Hersh
Kressel wrote: "Though I don't remember the precise quote, Harry Truman said that if a man can't be trusted to be faithful to his own wife, he can't be trusted with anything.I gotta like Harry.
Peter wrote: It may be that jerkiness is positively correlated with effectiveness in politicians.
I fear you are right.
Ann, being a reformed moralist, I never think of depriving anyone a ride on their high horse.Yeah, I thought you were referring to Exner. I had no idea about the East German. But it would appear that, as was the anecdote cited about the Marines guarding the US Embassy, no harm was done.
And, that's my point. We exaggerate the exposure. I strongly suspect it's due to the misapplication of a moral code that has little to nothing to do with whether a president chooses to get involved with extramarital affairs.
As a dear friend not unfamiliar with the affairs of state in one of our states said to me (back when I rode that high horse): let those who've had access to the sex that is woven into politics and refused criticize those who didn't refuse.
If you stop and think about it, you rarely if ever hear criticism from those who've been in the game, crazy Harry excepted. This is not to say that all have indulged, but that there's a wider and deeper understanding.
Ann wrote: "Aw shucks, Martin. Let me enjoy getting on my moral high horse. :-) ..."Perhaps if our elected officials were a little more "high horsed" the government might run a bit smoother.
...hmmm. Seems like an improbable probability.I'm not sure at all what the connection is between good government and marital fidelity.
We've fairly well established here that Kennedy and Johnson were effective executives. Johnson's legislative record while in office - and remember he didn't serve two terms - arguably is unparalleled, with the possible exception of FDR's.
Kennedy set much of it in motion and achieved accomplishments of his own.
Many effective politicians are involved in sexual relations that those of us who live in the hum drum do not understand, for the simple reason we have not lived in the sexually charged atmosphere of political life.
Of the three presidents we're discussing here, Johnson and Kennedy are unanimously ranked in the top. Reagan's ranking pales in comparison and puts him in the middle of the pack. Considering we, the electorate, tend to select punk presidential timber, that's pretty damning.
Carter lived the righteous life. Can we have a show of hands from those wishing him back in the White House?
This isn't to say philandering is a badge of effective leadership. Warren Harding, anyone?
I'll consult with the resident presidential scholar here, but I will bet dollars to donuts that there is no relationship whatsoever between effective political leadership and a president's sex life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic...
There is a really fascinating book that I read a couple weeks ago that actually discusses how and why sexual morality became to be a campaign issue. Reading the comments on here reminded me of it, and I related to it while reading this chapter as well.
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It wasn't long after LBJ left office that this became something the media covered and something that could sink a campagin.
Honestly, why did that change? Why at that time did it become an issue? Anyone know?
The Drudge Report.The Lewinsky story was known, and a reporter had the story in the barn for his news organization (Newsweek I believe), well in advance of the DR. But the reporter did not want to publish the report because this was not what he got into journalism for.
But the Internet has changed all that.
The DR broke the Lewinsky story and thereafter the mainstream press followed. The story manifested the digital media's impact on speed, but also crashing the barriers that had largely been erected by print media.
Remember your McLuhan, who recognized that with electronic media control shifted from the guy who owned the printing press to the individual using the electronic media.
Reporters playing by the print rules no longer were first with stories. Drudge was at the front of the line.
Actually, it was the Gary Hart scandal according to
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. This was in 1987 and Gary Hart was basically a shoo-in for the Democratic nomination for President, until a rumored sex scandal (cheating on his wife) surfaced and was widely covered via the new 24 hours news channels, which treated news as if it were entertainment. This resulted in Hart losing the nomination. The Drudge Report is the result of what emerged in the late 1980s.
I wouldn't argue with that.But two things: Hart was not a sitting president. And, secondly the candidate dared the press to follow him.
Candidates' marriages and spouses have for sometime been fair game for the press. Ed Muskie in tears in Maine, although that was considered out-of-bounds by many at the time.
Wasn't Reagan the first president to have been divorced? That was a political no-no in the '50s and '60s. But at least they dressed him up in appropriate family attire.
I remember that, Megan. There was a lot of speculation at the time that Gary Hart really didn't want to be president. If he did, he certainly shot himself in the foot. I think he was virtually separated from his wife at the time, but he got caught up in what the public perceived as the bimbo factor.
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To our detriment, I think.
As a society, w..."
I have to agree Peter - I could care less as long as they are doing their job and are discreet. However - open cheating I think tarnishes the office of the holder and you would hope that your president would refrain but if they do not - you can only hope they are discreet.
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It is interesting that in the day and age of FDR and even to a certain extent Kennedy - the media had certain sensibilities and they kept things like that to themselves and under wraps. To tell you the truth - I wish they did that now. The 24x7 news entertainment channels make things up as they go along to try to stimulate interest and controversy.
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b..."Good quote Kressel
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I visited the LBJ ranch and it was great. One of t..."
How horrible for everybody else trying to relax at the meal.
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Welcome Lorespar - what are your comments so far?
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Very funny Kressel.
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Perhaps if our elected officials were a little more "high horsed" the government might run a bit smoother."
Personally I would just like them to spend a bit more time on the details of the job description.
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But two things: Hart was not a sitting president. And, secondly the candidate dared the press to follow him.
Candidates' marriages and spouses have for sometime been ..."
There is a difference here Martin - Ed Muskie was just trying to protect his wife - he never cheated on her at any time. It was Nixon's dirty politics manufacturing stories that bothered Muskie - he felt that he was fair game but not his family and he was right. He was always a family man and did not want to see his wife hurt by nefarious lies distributed by Loeb and Nixon's dirty tricks campaign which was full of hoaxes.
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All the best,
Bentley and the History Book Club
"More often, his attacks were psychological. Guests were constantly embarrassed by the way Lyndon tore into Lady Bird in public. He offered a running critique of his wife in which no aspect of her person was off limits. Common sources of complaint were her appearance, her clothes, and her general lack of sophistication in comparison with the well-heeled women of Washington." (Page 102)Darman goes on to discuss LBJ's love affairs, which, it sounds like, he flaunted publicly. I know this subject has been discussed quite a bit already, but you have to be an arrogant jerk to so personally and publicly disrespect and humiliate a person that's been by your side, through good times and bad, for so long.
For the elder states(wo)men in the thread, was this type of behavior common in the 1960s? And what about Lady Bird's response of not saying a word? Of course, she was in a much different position than every other woman in the country. I'm angry at LBJ while reading this chapter. He's coming off as a bully both personally and politically.
Leonard Lopate just re-aired his interview with the author of that book on how Gary Hart's fall was the beginning of modern media coverage of political scandals. The author said something very interesting. He said after the Watergate scandal, all journalists dreamed of becoming the next Woodward and Bernstein, and I guess extra-marital affairs were the lowest hanging fruit.Here's the interview: http://www.wnyc.org/story/how-gary-ha...
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Matt Bai
For the elder states(wo)men in the thread, was this type of behavior common in the 1960s? And what about Lady Bird's response of not saying a word?Interesting questions, Steve. I had a very sheltered upbringing in a conservative, Catholic family in the Midwest. In our family, it was a major scandal when an uncle got divorced. You were expected to stay married, no matter how unhappy you might be.
Men in power have always had the opportunity to gratify their sexual desires with multiple women. That is not to say that most do; it is also true that many women are attracted to power (and money, of course) and make it easy for this kind of man.
However, in the 60's, when I was a teenager, most of us were blissfully ignorant of these escapades. The personal lives of politicians were considered off limits. Gay actors and actresses were allowed to stay in the closets, etc. etc.
My generation was the first to be strongly impacted by the women's liberation movement. The new opportunities gave many women more options than just to stand by their man. Lady Bird's life was totally wrapped up in Lydon's success. In his own way (which a whole lot of women would find objectionable) I believe he loved her. After all, she seems to have given him everything he wanted. I suppose she loved him too, although that is harder for me to believe.
"He said after the Watergate scandal, all journalists dreamed of becoming the next Woodward and Bernstein, and I guess extra-marital affairs were the lowest hanging fruit."Sorry to disappoint, but the mantra for reporters in the post Watergate era was: "Follow the money," which was the guidance deep throat gave Woodward.
Hart brought his problems on himself when in answer to questions about his philandering, he dared reporters to follow him.
Despite what Bai might claim - and without reading his book I'll concede a degree of validity to the notion that affairs increasingly became fair game post Hart/Rice - reporters have come under pressure to write about these affairs as a result of the Internet supplanting the print media, and the case history for that is Drudge's coverage of the Clinton affair with the intern.
But, I would warn against a witch hunt aimed at reporters on two accounts. One is that the public wants to know. If the public wasn't pulling that kind of coverage from the network, the network wouldn't be yielding it.
Secondly, and this may be more important, the digital age has put in reporters' hands some sophisticated analytical tools that are being put to good use. As usual, the press, especially ownership and management has been extraordinarily slow to recognize the value on digital technology, but they are getting there.
Finally, what's wrong with a sex scandal? Some of the best stories in the old testament spring from sex scandals. And, they never seem to lose their value.
This is a revealing and reminding chapter for me.Johnson and the press. He worked the room I guess whichever room he was in.
I didn’t know much of the “treatment” of Ladybird (LB from now on) by LBJ. I had forgotten that Moyers and Valenti were his guys too.
I image that “home” in Texas was even more critical to him now with the difficulty of possession of his new “home’ in DC.
Page 92 paragraph 3 quote “every working minute was about proving he was a good president” - was this because in part he had not won the post himself? Was this because he had to be constantly establishing his power “at work” with the oft over JFK folks?
Of course after his father’s failure one has to think he felt he had to succeed at whatever he did to validate his worth.
That LB had wanted to have access to power as a reporter was interesting. That she endured his harsh treatment, maybe disrespect in front of people (my wife would kill me), and his womanizing (which seems to have been somewhat common among powerful politicians – and other people) – was it because of family values, and tradition – by loyalty and ambition?
The understanding of the focus of JFK’s team on re-election is shown in this chapter. LBJ was able to pick up the poverty fighting of Heller because his re-election focus seems to have been partly to be the guy that made the Kennedy programs that were going nowhere viable. And as per pg. 114 last paragraph it gave Sorensen and the other JFK folks an opportunity to “recast” the remembrance of their hero JFK.
And James Reston. Well before CNN and twenty four hour cable news newspapers counted (still do with me) I read James Reston much of the time. I grew up in NYC and there was God that the New York Times in terms of authority in my youth. Reston was a powerhouse and I am pleased to meet up with him again.
And one sees LBJ taking control. At his ranch. Guests generally have to be polite to their hosts and he made as many folks as possible his guests. And I guess they were more his “guests” at the ranch than the White House.
So this chapter is contributing to building our understanding of how he got to his landslide.
So this is my observation on this chapter before I read any comments from anyone else. I just thought to lay it out this way and then see what else I learn from my reading partners.
PS - I start to read your comments posted before mine soon.
Kressel wrote: "Though I don't remember the precise quote, Harry Truman said that if a man can't be trusted to be faithful to his own wife, he can't be trusted with anything. b..."I really cannot agree. What is the deal that they have? I would believe that was Harry's and Bess' deal but maybe there were other understandings in other marriages. Also Harry was really from an earlier generation than LBJ or JFK.
I do agree that people who lie easily will lie easily in many areas but it doesn't have to mean a reduction in trust to do their job.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Harry S. Truman (other topics)A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence, and Power (other topics)
Indomitable Will: LBJ in the Presidency (other topics)
Harry S. Truman (other topics)
All the Truth Is Out: The Week Politics Went Tabloid (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jimmy Carter (other topics)Mark K. Updegrove (other topics)
Robert A. Caro (other topics)
Robert A. Caro (other topics)
Matt Bai (other topics)
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For the week of December 22nd - January 4th, we are reading Chapter Four of Landslide
The fourth and fifth weeks' reading assignment is:
Weeks Four and Five - December 22nd - January 4th
Chapter Four: Home (pages 89-119)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on December 1st.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up December 22nd
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Kathy, Jill, Bryan, and Jerome.
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