Double Indemnity, by James M. Cain -- the "official" thread

[Tom]

I was suspicious of her from the beginning. I kept recalling an o;d Alfred Hitchcock story where a woman went to a mortuary to find out what it would cost to bury her husband before his passing.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Tom wrote: "I was suspicious of her from the beginning. I kept recalling an o;d Alfred Hitchcock story where a woman went to a mortuary to find out what it would cost to bury her husband before his passing."

Pretty much the same thing. If I suddenly added accident insurance on Larry's policy with the excuse that he flies so often, well, I'd wonder if the insurance company would raise its collective eyebrows.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I've been trying to think of other noir novels who have a Phyllis-like character -- you know, the femme fatale who pretty much drives the action. Any come to mind?

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Oh! Slaps head. The book I read recently called Build My Gallows High, by Geoffrey Homes is one.

[Jan C]

The Bride Wore Black by Cornell Woolrich?

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I read that eons ago but forgot. I'm going to have to dig it out of my shelves.

What did you think of Phyllis, Jan? Did you think she was planning to off Walter from the beginning?

[Jan C]

Well, I'm not sure we know that at the beginning. However, it turns out that the daughter believes that Phyllis killed her mother. So the only question was who was next after she married the husband. She kills off all the witnesses. Everybody's got to die in Phyllis' book.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Phyllis is like the Typhoid Mary of Los Angeles.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

All right then, let's just talk about whether or not you liked this book, and why. Did anyone have a favorite scene? Anyone feel sorry for Walter? Anyone think Phyllis should have been thrown off the train instead of her husband? Did anyone think Lola and Walter would hook up? What about Lola's boyfriend? Did anyone wonder why Phyllis didn't want Lola seeing him the first time it was brought up?

What did you think of the title --- more than one meaning?
If you were going to knock off your spouse, would you have waited longer than 3 months after buying insurance?

Favorite lines?
Did you see Barbara Stanwyck in your head? Fred MacMurray?
If you saw the movie, did you wonder how such a nice father to my three sons could do such a bad thing?

The ending -- was it appropriate?

These and many more questions await you! Let's parlay!

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Do you really think Walter believed they could get away with this?

[Stephen]

I still want to go to the Los Angeles Library to see how Liberty Magazine split the story in three parts. My favorite scene from the book was the ride home after the deed was done. It just sparked with anger. No I did not feel sorry for anyone other than Keyes, who liked Walter and was extremely disappointed. It hard not to think of Stanwych/MacMurray duo as it is often cited as the perfect example of film noir. One difference between the book & the movie, besides the ending of course, is the line "Straight down the line." In the book it is used once, but Chandler screenplay has it repeated three times and each time it has a different inflection. I think Cain would have thought why did I not do that. It is so cool that there is a Cain adaptation by Chandler. Chandler changed the ending and left out Phyllis as a serial killer.
Lastly Fred MacMurray had a stellar acting career before My Three Sons. Do a Fred MacMurray weekend with his best works "The Egg & I, " "Caine Mutiny." "The Apartment" and " The Absent Minded Professor."

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Stephen wrote: "I still want to go to the Los Angeles Library to see how Liberty Magazine split the story in three parts. My favorite scene from the book was the ride home after the deed was done. It just sparked ..."

I know about Fred MacMurray's career. It was a joke question.

[Stephen]

Sorry, without the lol I took as serious, my bad, I should have known better.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

It's okay. It made me laugh writing it.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I worked really, really hard to keep actors out of my head while reading. The character of Keyes' boss I couldn't attach a voice to.

[Tom]

Nancy wrote: "I know about Fred MacMurray's career. It was a joke question. "

Actually, it is a serious question. Fred MacMurray was a great actor but casting him as a calculating killer seems like an odd decision. I works, though.

[Tom]

Nancy wrote: "I worked really, really hard to keep actors out of my head while reading. The character of Keyes' boss I couldn't attach a voice to."

Having seen the movie, how can you not think of Edward G. Robinson whenever Keyes was mentioned? Even though he only a supporting character, his personality dominates, as it does in all his films.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I thought he did great. Very believable.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Tom wrote: "Nancy wrote: "I worked really, really hard to keep actors out of my head while reading. The character of Keyes' boss I couldn't attach a voice to."

Having seen the movie, how can you not think of..."

I tried so hard! Finally it just happened.

[Stephen]

EGR was type-casted his whole career, still in his later years got a chance to branch out. I wonder if Chandler toned down the Phyliss character because of Stanwych or just the notion of a child killer would not fly at the time?

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I found a great speech from Phyllis that I think totally explains her, even before we know about her past, on page 18 of my copy (the old Vintage edition):

"There's something in me that loves Death (note the capital). I think of myself as Death, sometimes. In a scarlet shroud, floating through the night. I'm so beautiful then. And sad. And hungry to make the whole world happy, by taking them out where I am, into the night, away from all trouble, all unhappiness...Walter this is the awful part. I know this is terrible. I tell myself it's terrible. But to me, it doesn't seem terrible. It seems as thought I'm doing something -- that's really best for him, if he only knew it."

-- thoughts?

[Jan C]

That's very dark.

She likes it but knows it isn't right. Doesn't really care.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Jan C wrote: "That's very dark.

She likes it but knows it isn't right. Doesn't really care."

It makes me wonder why Walter wouldn't have checked out Phyllis a little more carefully. Think about it -- for their plan to work, Phyllis shouldn't have anything in her past that might work against her/them later. Obviously, with his job, he has the means to do so.

[Jan C]

He's in "love" or maybe just lust. Something about that anklet. She may have him "under a spell".

[Stephen]

Yes, I think the scientific term is " Thinking with the wrong head."

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Stephen wrote: "Yes, I think the scientific term is " Thinking with the wrong head.""

You're probably right, but somehow, I got the feeling that Walter thinks he's way smarter than Phyllis so it seems a little surprising to me.

A LOT of crime could be prevented if you people (men) would start thinking with the right one!

[Franky]

Wow, that's such a telling quote from Phyllis...really pegs her for the femme fatale from the get go.

I agree with the part about Walter needing to be a little more careful and think things through. Something tells me that he just gets pulled into the excitement of her and is in over his head before he really knows it. When reflecting about things, everything he says has sort of confessional tone, like he knows things are going to go bad, very bad.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Franky wrote: "Wow, that's such a telling quote from Phyllis...really pegs her for the femme fatale from the get go.

I agree with the part about Walter needing to be a little more careful and think things throu..."

He seems pretty impulsive to me at that point. As soon as he heard her bring up accident insurance, he knows what she's up to. But he's also not a stupid man, so I'm trying to wrap my head around him helping her.

Yes, it does, Franky ... it's like I should have realized reading that quotation that there's way more on the sinister side of Phyllis to look out for.

[Sawyer]

I guess I saw Phyllis as not very smart. I thought Walter led her to the conclusion he wanted, and she went along with it. Perhaps I am too simple, but Cain absolutely fooled me.

I was more suspicious of Lola.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Sawyer wrote: "I guess I saw Phyllis as not very smart. I thought Walter led her to the conclusion he wanted, and she went along with it. Perhaps I am too simple, but Cain absolutely fooled me.

I was more su..."

You're not at all "too simple." Lola was a question mark for me until well into the novel.

[Stephen]

I have some of my characters discussing "Double Indemnity" in the first chapter of "Terror Strikes Downtown." I've sold life insurance, and I can tell you everyone has a scheme.

In the real world, Walter's plan would not have gotten past the autopsy.

[Tom]

Stephen wrote: "In the real world, Walter's plan would not have gotten past the autopsy. "

By real world are you talking about a specific timeframe? I think forensic science progressed a long way in the 20th century and I did wonder if a forensic examination of the wounds would have revealed any discrepancies at the time Cain wrote DI.

[Stephen]

In any century, the wounds would not have been consistent with a fall from a moving train. Medical examiners have long known the signs of strangulation, and they simply wouldn't turn up in a fall.

Cain did the right thing: don't let a cavil get in the way of a great story.

[Tom]

Stephen wrote: "don't let a cavil get in the way of a great story. "

Which is basically what Charles Todd said at a reading last night when asked why their characters never go to the bathroom.

[Jan C]

Tom wrote: "Stephen wrote: "don't let a cavil get in the way of a great story. "

Which is basically what Charles Todd said at a reading last night when asked why their characters never go to the ..."

Other thanJames Joyce, I can't think of any characters where we do know anything about their bathroom (or whatever you want to call it) activities.

[Stephen]

Who wants to?

[Tom]

Jan C wrote: "Tom wrote: "Other thanJames Joyce, I can't think of any characters where we do know anything about their bathroom (or whatever you want to call it) activities. "

Cormac McCarthy talks about activities that take place in outhoses in Blood Meridian but, being Cormac McCarthy, that activity is killing.

[Jan C]

Stephen wrote: "Who wants to?"

That's the point. Why would we care?

[Prakash]

Most of the books of James Hadley Chase (I wonder how many remember this author) had a plot similar to that in Double Indemnity.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Prakash wrote: "Most of the books of James Hadley Chase (I wonder how many remember this author) had a plot similar to that in Double Indemnity."

I have books by that author -- I haven't read them, though.