The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion
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Gladiator
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November 2019 Group Read 1/2 Gladiator
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message 51:
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Jim
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rated it 4 stars
Nov 15, 2019 03:39PM
Good question, Cheryl. Is anyone else not done yet who is reading it now? If so, please speak up or we'll start spoiling the end. You do not want that if you haven't gotten that far.
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So, yeah, the Literary quality of it can be talked about now. There are certainly some very good bits, where Wylie shows he knows how words and sentences can be put together for great effect. Ed mentioned the trench warfare scenes, and while it wasn't All Quiet on the Western Front (1929), it was pretty damn moving. What were some of the passages you-all noted?
Cheryl wrote: "The thing about the ending is, how else could it have ended?"Alt-ending: Hugo accepts the scientist's proposal and they create a homo novus, which is a start of several SF novels
I compared the trench warfare with Storm of Steel rather than All Quiet on the Western Front while reading, probably because I read it a little more recently. Both are horrific, but Junger did a great job in the more anti-war editions. Wylie's explanation for Hugo's strength had a far better scientific explanation than many other SF stories. Even though the science is laughable now, there was nothing magical about it. He even takes us through a series of experiments. Very well set up.
The theme of how Hugo's great abilities aren't gifts to him as much as burdens to bear & how badly they screw with his personal life are really well done. We're constantly shown that throughout.
Greatness seemed to elude Hugo, success such as he had earned was inadequate, and his friendships as well as his popularity were tinged with a sort of question that he never understood.
Because he's a decent guy, he feels a sense of responsibility to use his abilities for good, but using them causes alienation, a major theme in the X-men & other comic book heroes.
The characters are generally very well done. Some are caricatures, but they're well used & given enough depth to elicit real feelings for them. I was particularly fond of the way the women that Hugo consorts with were done. There wasn't any moral judgement from Wylie, just matter of fact descriptions of people in tough situations making the best of things. Charlotte was particularly heart-wrenching.
One of the things I appreciated about the writing style itself is how each character had their own voice. Opening at random I readily find this: Epstein, the gym manager (?) sees Izzie pointing to Hugo, 'there's the challenger to Ole.' Epstein replies, "There, you says, and there I looks and what do I see but a pink young angel face that Ole would swallow without chewing."
Can't you just hear that? :)
Or earlier, when he and Bessie are charming each other."Another taxi ride. The lights seethed past him. A dark house and three flights of rickety stairs. The gritty sound of a key in a lock. A little room with table, a bed, two chairs, a gas-light turned low, a disheveled profusion of female garments.... She flew into his arms...."
Clearly he's drunk, catching snatches & glimpses & whiffs through different senses. But his surroundings and the young woman are making enough of an impression on him that we aren't surprised, later, when he seeks her out as a potential 'friend.'
I am glad the group picked this book for I found it an interesting read. It had a lot more depth than I expected and raised some important questions. How can one person change the world? How do you belong when you are so different from everyone else? I thought the ending was appropriate and fitting the mood of the book.
Oh, but so much more is going to happen! Well, most of the focus is on his dilemma of adapting to the normal world, not exactly page-turning adventure... but/and the beginning was a pretty long set-up and not as engaging as the rest.... I urge you to try again. I can't promise you'll love it, but honestly I don't think you've given it a fair chance.
Mod
I agree. But it still felt very sudden. I was reading electronically, so didn't have the physical sensation of knowing I was so close to the end by feeling the number of pages left. (Kindle gives me clues to that, but I was reading this in a different application.)
It was a sudden ending, and dramatic.
But was it a cop-out?
Hugo couldn't see a future for himself, so I don't know if it was a cop out or not.
Hugo couldn't... but could Wylie?More interestingly, could any of us??
I watched "The 3 Minute Mile", one of Science Fiction Theater's episodes. A scientist figures out how to make a college student stronger & the kid has to quit playing football because he's afraid he'll hurt the other players. shades of "Gladiator". It's fun to see its influence in a 1956 show.
OK, well, now, spoilers, really don't have to continue . . .:-)
But we didn't give any details, Kateblue. Don't you want to know the how and the why? 😉
Maybe. I am reading, like, 8 books right now, and I'm not that crazy about any of them. This is one of the better ones, though.
I read a bunch of books at a time too. This book had a lot more depth than I expected, much more, in fact.
Jim wrote: "I watched "The 3 Minute Mile", one of Science Fiction Theater's episodes. A scientist figures out how to make a college student stronger & the kid has to quit playing football because he's afraid h..."I don't know that there's an influence. I think it's more likely to be like convergent evolution.
Cheryl wrote: "I don't know that there's an influence. I think it's more likely to be like convergent evolution."I agree that this is quite possible
Cheryl wrote: "I don't know that there's an influence. I think it's more likely to be like convergent evolution"Have you seen the show? There are a lot of SF influences in it. They often take an old story & update it with the latest scientific breakthroughs. Pulp SF coming true or could be true soon is pretty much the theme of the show.
I've not seen the show, but even if I did I wouldn't be convinced. I'm not saying one way or another; I'm just saying that the idea of a superman is so universal that a copyright infringement case would not likely succeed. That's all.
I didn't say it was a copyright infringement, just an influence. There were a couple of other hints the screenwriter had read the book. Sure, there are a lot of supermen in legends, but this was on the mark with the football & some other stuff. Really quite good.
Ed wrote: "The ending was rather sudden. I wasn't expecting it. But it is as good an end as any.It was a much less optimistic book than I expected, but I like that because I'm even less optimistic!
I'd for..."
Speaking of the Rosenbergs and such, has anyone read "The Book of Daniel"? It covers a lot of that period as an alternative reality.
Mod
Actually, I did read The Book of Daniel. But too long ago to remember much. The Rosenbergs show up in other fiction I've read, and IIRC in "Angels in America'.
(Interesting coincidence in that a character here was named after someone from the original book of Daniel.)
Mod
One of the things he hates is pulp fiction and other escapist entertainment. So I guess he would have hated superhero comics and pulp SF!
That seems a bit hypocritical to me on his part because he seems to be a fan of trying to understand human behavior through studies of Jungian archetypes, and so-called escapist fiction is one of the ways those archetypal stories are spread today.
Ed wrote: "I'm currently reading Generation of Vipers, which is basically a long screed about everything Philip Wylie thinks is wrong or hypocritical about American society in 19..."Interesting!
Interesting indeed. One of those sneering intellectuals w/ a limited viewpoint, perhaps. Or maybe he dismisses SF for the same reason Atwood does (whatever that may be).
Well, given that Wylie wrote some pretty good SF, I think it may have been that his literary skills were better than many of those writing in pulps. So yes, maybe a sneering intellectual who was too dense not to bite that hand that was feeding him. Z, tell us what you think when you are done. I'm not bothering to read it--I don't even reads screeds about current day society. But I would like your opinions
Mod
I'm reading it, not Z. I may not finish it myself, for the same reason you gave. I don't even read modern-day rants. But I was curious enough to start it.
Some of his thoughts so far are that America is hypocritical about thinking of itself as a Christian nation when most people don't actually seem to have much religious belief. And we have hypocritical ideas about sexuality. We could, for example, cure many cases of sexual diseases if we would just admit that the sex is actually happening and make it easier to get information and tests and condoms.
Well, I gotta agree with the "hypocritical ideas about sexuality" and certainly we are even worse with the religious beliefs thing. On the other hand, it would seem to be the religious beliefs that cause this country to have hypocritical ideas about sexuality.
Interesting stuff, Ed. Jung was pretty highly thought of back when he wrote this, wasn't he? He, Pavlov, & Freud were all much quoted names when I was in school decades later. I've got a copy of The Disappearance which should have a lot of the same stuff about sex in it, I guess. Sounds like I agree with him about both religion & sex.
Oh boy. If Vipers is SF, we need to discuss it in another thread. If not, well, I think I have to nip this tangent in the bud, before we get peoples' hackles raised and before we get too far off the main topic. It is def. interesting though and I do think I want to investigate more by Wylie.
Mod
I found the description of guys looking for work after WWI very interesting. Seemed a real struggle to get a decent job. Also the man and wife characters on the farm were pretty interesting.
(I'm not going further on Vipers here. I thought it was relevant to say that he didn't like pulp "escapist" fiction. His views on other things aren't as relevant to this group.)
I agree that I did feel the hopelessness of the unemployed, and that the farm couple seemed authentic too.
Ed wrote: "Gregg wrote: "...has anyone read "The Book of Daniel"? .."Actually, I did read The Book of Daniel. But too long ago to remember much. The Rosenbergs show up in other fiction I've re..."
Sounds like a literary reference to me...
I would say Atwood isn't anti-SF but anti-ghetto genre. She has devoted a lot of energy in writing "speculative fiction" - a term I deplore - rather than conventional literary fiction.
Mod
Her opinion changed over time. She seems to have originally thought all SF was pulp fiction, but then she educated herself.
Mod
From the Guardian review: By the time it got round to Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego being cast into the fiery furnace, at least one person watching at home on Tidal would have willingly chucked himself in with them. 😲
Anyway, I still don't understand why Wylie used the odd name Abednego. I don't see any connection between Gladiator and the book of Daniel.
However, that is the Biblical "Book of Daniel" not the postmodernist novel that I was referring to.I sang in a Jesus freak musical about the boys in the furnace back in the 70s. One of the lines about being in the fire was "Ain't it cool!"
Would this meaning help in explaining the name choice:Means "servant of Nebo" in Akkadian, Nebo being the Babylonian god of wisdom. In the Old Testament Abednego is the Babylonian name given to Azariah.
Ed wrote: "Gregg wrote: "I would say Atwood isn't anti-SF but anti-ghetto genre."Her opinion changed over time. She seems to have originally thought all SF was pulp fiction, but then she educated herself."
I did not know that. Good to know; ty.
Gregg wrote: "Would this meaning help in explaining the name choice:Means "servant of Nebo" in Akkadian, Nebo being the Babylonian god of wisdom. In the Old Testament Abednego is the Babylonian name given to A..."
Servant of the god of wisdom... that works....
Cheryl wrote: "Ed wrote: "Gregg wrote: "I would say Atwood isn't anti-SF but anti-ghetto genre."Her opinion changed over time. She seems to have originally thought all SF was pulp fiction, but then she educated..."
The struggle has been real:
https://www.sfadb.com/Margaret_Atwood
I really need to read "The Heart Goes Last"....
Cheryl wrote: "Gregg wrote: "Would this meaning help in explaining the name choice:Means "servant of Nebo" in Akkadian, Nebo being the Babylonian god of wisdom. In the Old Testament Abednego is the Babylonian n..."
Do you think it was meant ironically? I see that Abednego in the novel is married to a religionist. Is her name normal or does it have a double meaning?
And I swear I started in this group with that very question on another novel....
Mod
Yeah, that makes sense! He was interested in creating a superman child regardless of any ethical concerns.
His wife's name, Matilda, supposedly means "Mighty in Battle", which I suppose is true of her and her son. I'm normally totally clueless when an author makes references with character names.
In real life, I mentioned this book in a book club. I described that the guy had injected his wife with something in order to create a super baby. Someone asked me "Why?" and I really had no answer. I guess he worshiped the god of wisdom!
Gregg, yes I know that you were referring to the E.L. Doctorow book. I already commented earlier that I have read that, though don't remember it well.
I thought we were on the same page, Ed, but then I confused myself...
The Evolution of Science Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
The Book of Daniel (other topics)The Disappearance (other topics)
Generation of Vipers (other topics)
Generation of Vipers (other topics)
The Book of Daniel (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Philip Wylie (other topics)Philip Wylie (other topics)
Ayn Rand (other topics)
Robert E. Howard (other topics)
Philip Wylie (other topics)
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